Alta racers
#101
Posted 09 March 2006 - 12:43
Advertisement
#102
Posted 09 March 2006 - 14:49
Originally posted by RAP
Can any one tell me which Alta Peter Moores had in the UK in 1970. According to a programme it was a 1936 2.0 litre.
Thanks
RAP
That was the ex Hugh Hunter car now owned by Martin Redmond.
I'm surprised the name Hugh Clifford hasn't emerged from this thread. Back in the 60s he was very much the torch bearer for Altas and several of them passed through his hands including the Peter Moores car and, I think, the Jucker/Abecassis car.
#103
Posted 09 March 2006 - 19:48
It was a 1948 type, Terry, but I'm not sure if it was actually built then.Originally posted by Terry Walker
Just to confirm: the Gib Barrett car was Chassis 101, circa 1948.
Three F1-type cars were laid down, the last not being completed, but rebuilt as an F2 model. The first three are all accounted for, though 010 could be the one converted to F2, converted back for Barrett's use.
The replica F1 car built in the 1970s, which used to be in the Donington Collection, is a different car again.
#104
Posted 09 March 2006 - 23:17
As David said it is a post war type chassis and according to DSJ's book, although chassis # 010 does not seem to fir in?, the engine number is 1111.
GP4 was not completed and was converted to F2/3 with an unsupercharged 2-litre car built for A.J.Stokes.
The only other "unaccounted" F2 car is F2/4 which was originally raced by Oliver Simpson.
Following on from this, the next question is whether the A.J.Stokes and Oliver Simpson cars are still in existence.
With regards to the nose badge, it is a genuine Alta badge since on a query to an Alta owning friend, I was advised that he has invoices from Alta in the mid 50s showing this design of badge on the invoice. Therefore Terry's theory on the new badge is probably correct.
#105
Posted 10 March 2006 - 06:09
#106
Posted 10 March 2006 - 06:38
#107
Posted 10 March 2006 - 08:53
And what about this one?
#108
Posted 10 March 2006 - 21:57
Some time ago I came across an advert for a Alta-Jaguar sports car MVS 351 which had been converted from an Alta F2 chassis 090 and was originally sold as a package by a Mr. Adams of Pulnam with the ex Gordon Watson car now owned by Andrew Fletcher, to a Mr.Horris Capauldi.
Perhaps Graham Gauld could check with Andrew Fletcher the chassis and engine numbers of the ex Gordon Watson car.
Likewise may be some one could check with Martin Peterkin what is the chassis number of F2/5 which is the last F2 car built and has the bugatti style wheels.
#109
Posted 11 March 2006 - 00:18
if you look at your photos of the Gib Barrett car, especially the one of Syd Anderson winning the WASCC race in 1957 #4, it would appear that the nose badge even in 1957 was different to the normal Alta badge.
The first photo is not so clear.
Maybe your photo can verify if my first para is correct.
Thanks
#111
Posted 11 March 2006 - 04:38
if my eyes are still OK, it would appear the badges on all the cars are the same. If you look at photos of the F1 cars in the late 40s or F2 in early 50s, the badge is more Ved.
It could be that when the car was sold to Barrett, it had the new style badge added so that it appeared to be a new car.
The big query is still which chassis was used.
The engine could well have come from GP3 the Joe Kelly car which had a two stage supercharged layout. Kelly removed the blown 1.5L engine and replaced it with a 2L Bristol engine inorder to use the car in F2 events. Maybe he sold the engine back to Alta when he installed the Bristol unit.
#113
Posted 12 March 2006 - 18:31
#114
Posted 12 March 2006 - 22:17
Answering Humphries question, Lady Mary originally owned #69, which was owned and raced post war by Cowell and Watson. The car originally had a pre war style body but was re bodied after the war with a body style similar to the post war F1 and F2 Altas.
I am not sure but I believe Lady Mary used this car in hillclimbs etc.
#115
Posted 13 March 2006 - 02:22
I'll don my anorak, visit the museum, and get the actual numbers for you. With photographic proof if possible.
#116
Posted 13 March 2006 - 06:03
I don't think her ladyship ever drove #69, which she acquired in 1939. Having got rid of it, presumably as a wartime measure, she subsequently bought #62, which had also been rebodied, and it was this she used in hillclimbs etcOriginally posted by fivestar
Lady Mary originally owned #69, which was owned and raced post war by Cowell and Watson. The car originally had a pre war style body but was re bodied after the war with a body style similar to the post war F1 and F2 Altas.
I am not sure but I believe Lady Mary used this car in hillclimbs etc.
#117
Posted 13 March 2006 - 07:34
#118
Posted 13 March 2006 - 07:42
#119
Posted 13 March 2006 - 17:12
(Rebuilt for Martin Redmond rather than by...)
Advertisement
#120
Posted 15 March 2006 - 05:07
Alta: Engine No 1111
Chassis Number 010-GS4819
Gib Barret bought it direct from Geoffrey Taylor at Alta.
Before he sold it to Barrett, Taylor had previously offered it, in 1955, to Mr R Fielding of Moray, Scotland, as a "twin stage supercharged car we were building for a customer but have now found that he is unable to pay for it ... car is basically a 1952 single-seater ... rubber suspension ... new frame (tubular). Sold to Robert Cowell who used it twice only since when it has been on our hands."
Fielding didn't buy, and protracted negotiations began with Barrett in Australia, who had Charles White of Motorworks inspect it for him. "Chassis quite new ... engine standing in store for two years ... body secondhand with a few bruises."
Chassis 010 is a postwar F2 chassis (but there was little difference between the F1 and F2 frame), and the two-stage supercharged engine is also postwar, so it is not a rebuilt prewar car. The car was apparently built to order for Cowell, more or less as a duplicate of the Joe Kelly F1 car.
So the provenance is:
1 Built for Cowell (but not paid for)
2 Back with Alta
3 Gib Barrett (Aust)
4 Sydney Anderson (W Aust)
5 Jim Ward (W Aust)
6 Jim Harwood (dealer)
7 Hon John Dawson-Damer
8 Peter Briggs
I took a few extra photos of it at the Museum, with the bonnet off.
#121
Posted 15 March 2006 - 06:06
#122
Posted 15 March 2006 - 07:03
Quote from a Museum report.
101 appears to be the supercharged car, while the F2 car's whereabouts are currently unknown.
Oh, and the Museum's car was in a Hammer film called Mask of Dust , starring Richard Conte. before Barrett bought it, along with another Alta. Racing scenes were filmed at Goodwood.
#123
Posted 15 March 2006 - 07:48
What we need to know is the chassis number of the Gordon Watson car F2/2, since it exists essentially unchanged. F2/1 was #090 and F2/3 is 010??
David can you kindly advise at what races R. Cowell raced it in 1951, since I can't find any reference in my files. Tks.
If my memory is correct Ray Fielding owned GP3 the ex Joe Kelly car which in 1958 he fitted with an ex works 1950 HWM 2 seater F2 body(ex FB103-Baring) and a Jaguar D-Type engine and registered it as ND4040.
#124
Posted 15 March 2006 - 09:12
Originally posted by fivestar
[If my memory is correct Ray Fielding owned GP3 the ex Joe Kelly car which in 1958 he fitted with an ex works 1950 HWM 2 seater F2 body(ex FB103-Baring) and a Jaguar D-Type engine and registered it as ND4040. [/B]
I'm afraid I can't add anything in terms of a chassis number but I recall Chris Stewart finding a GP Alta in the 1970s and it was supposedly the ex Joe Kelly car. I've no idea of it's subsequent movements.
ND4040 - is that the car later owned by NIck Jerromes or the Terry Grainger car?
James Holland
#125
Posted 15 March 2006 - 09:48
ND4040 is/was the Nick Jeromes car ex GP3
RPG418 originally owned by Phil Scaggs was based on GP1 the ex Abecassis GP Alta.
OK so what happen to GP2, the ex G. Crossley GP Alta?, is that the car Chris stewart found?
#126
Posted 20 April 2006 - 22:19
Can anyone confirm that an exchange actually took place or was the MB obtained by other methods.
#127
Posted 21 April 2006 - 03:18
By an amazing coincidence he located the original body on a Ford V8 Special in Australia owned by Peter Kenny who has provided me with this information. The body came to Australia mounted on a Cooper Bristol chassis and powered by an Aston Martin engine ! around 1957. The Cooper Bristol was eventually rebuilt to something like its original configuration in the early eighties and the discarded body which was always known as an Alta body, passed to David Reid who built it into the Ford Special. The Special was subsequently bought and raced by Peter Kenny from whom David Woodhouse eventually located the body and acquired it. On being reunited with the chassis it was found that everything lined up perfectly leaving no doubt that the body originally belonged to F2/4.
F2/4 will have an Alta engine which also has an Australian connection. In the late fifties Jack Pryer and Clive Adams built an attracive sports car called the PRAD, as were the several other cars they built, which was powered by an Alta engine which was supplied from Jack Brabham. Rumour (unconfirmed) has it that it was the engine from the Cooper Alta he bought from Peter Whitehead when he first went to the UK in 1955 and quickly discarded in favour of a Bristol powereplant with which he was more familiar. Soon after completion the PRAD had serious accident and was rebuilt with a slightly different shaped body and a Holden motor. The Alta motor stayed with Clive Adams for many years until the owner of the Prad at the time ( about seven years ago ), Ian Cummins persuaded Clive to sell it to him. Eventually after selling the Prad, still with Holden motor fitted, Ian sent the Alta motor to the UK for sale and eventually wound up with David Woodhouse. The pieces of the jigsaw were falling into place !
#128
Posted 21 April 2006 - 06:24
Ray Fielding originally hill climbed the ex-Abecassis Alta
The HWM Fielding owned and ran was one of the original three team cars that doubled as sports cars and single seaters. It was sold to Edinburgh driver John Brown who ran it one or two times and even loaned it to Reg Parnell to race. John then sold it to Ray. I have photos of both Brown and Fielding with the car.
I do not recall Ray ever owning the Joe Kelly car but it was a regular visitor to Scotland in Joes hands.
Reference the Gordon Watson car I will try and find out the chassis number of it from Andrew Fletcher as this car has been in Scotland with Andrew for about thirty years.
#129
Posted 21 April 2006 - 07:46
#130
Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:21
The body came to Australia mounted on a Cooper Bristol chassis and powered by an Aston Martin engine ! around 1957. The Cooper Bristol was eventually rebuilt to something like its original configuration
This tends to confirm that the Cooper was the ex-Ron Searles car which the Autosport report of the 1955 Boxing Day Brands meeting described as
".....swept past tail ender Ron Searles (Cooper Alta). The oil pressure gauge on this car (a rebuild of Bert Roger's pranged sports Cooper bristol, with an Alta body and Rover engine installed soon gave urgent recommendations to halt, bringing Searles in to become the sole retirement" .
"
Oliver Simpson was associated with the Ron Searles Racing Team so it is logical that it would be the body of his Alta that found its way onto the rebuild of Bert Rogers' ex-Tony Crook TPD 1 Cooper. Searles ran the car in 1956 with as Aston Martin engine for various drivers including L Hunt .
RAP
#131
Posted 21 April 2006 - 12:11
My info came from an advert by RodLeach's Nostalgia, which stated" Ex Joe Kelly/Ray Fielding Grand prix Alta chassis(no GP1003) fitted in 1958 by Fielding with ex works HWM 2 seater F2 body -Baring(Fielder) and a semi D type engine.
Presumeably Fielding purchased the ex Joe Kelly chassis which by that time had a Bristol engine and when he broke up the HWM fitted the body to the Kelly car.
What happened to the chassis and engine of FB103 would be interesting to know.
One would have thought it would have been just as easy for Fielding to have inserted a Jaguar engine into FB103, unless FB103 was somehow damaged.
#132
Posted 21 April 2006 - 13:52
So the car we are looking for is Geoffrey Crossley's GP2
#133
Posted 23 April 2006 - 22:25
It would be interesting to know what became of GP2.
In DSJ's book it states it was broken up and the parts used in a special also David McKinney in an earlier post says the subsequent history of GP1,GP2 and GP3 are known.
#134
Posted 24 April 2006 - 04:55
That's your answerOriginally posted by fivestar
It would be interesting to know what became of GP2.
In DSJ's book it states it was broken up and the parts used in a special
#135
Posted 24 April 2006 - 22:14
Does anyone know how GP2 was rebodied, etc???
#136
Posted 25 April 2006 - 04:54
#137
Posted 25 April 2006 - 06:01
JH
#138
Posted 27 April 2006 - 23:52
one I think is the same car in the Motor Sport advert posted by Gigleux on the 10th March 2006.
the second a photo of the Norris Special in its early days.
Can anyone identify when and where these pictures were taken.
There is also a photo of a pre war offset car at Brighton with #32 on the side and also a post war GP car with #22 on the Old Classic car web site. definitely worth a visit.
#139
Posted 28 April 2006 - 07:53
Advertisement
#140
Posted 28 April 2006 - 11:12
#141
Posted 28 April 2006 - 11:20
Completely OTTOMH here (I'll check later) -Originally posted by humphries
Could it be that GP2 was the car raced by Luis Manduca in 1952-1953?
but I think the Manduca car was a rebodied pre-war model
#142
Posted 28 April 2006 - 16:18
Anyway, as we pulled up the floorboards, we found dozens of pages from old newspapers dating mostly from 1948 and even one from 1933. I decided to flick through, and this is what I found on the front of the Daily Graphic, from Tuesday 25th May 1948:
Thought you might be interested
#143
Posted 29 April 2006 - 03:13
The only reference to the Berkshire Special I can find is as follows:
GLOVER TROPHY 11th April 1955
Geoffrey Crossley #22 Berkshire Special - Lea Francis -DNS
Referring to an earlier post of mine and again courtsey of OLD CLASSIC CARS, below is a picture of an ALTA entering I assume the Paddock can any one identify it and also the car on its right with #30.
#144
Posted 29 April 2006 - 05:23
Car 30 is the Laystall Cromard, driven on that occasion by Ken Wharton and the one behind is John Webb's Turner
An interesting picture of some rare beasts
#145
Posted 29 April 2006 - 07:35
#146
Posted 29 April 2006 - 08:26
I forgot to check (after saying earlier I would)
#147
Posted 29 April 2006 - 08:56
#148
Posted 29 April 2006 - 14:06
#149
Posted 29 April 2006 - 20:30
DCN
#150
Posted 30 April 2006 - 08:31