Theophile Schneider and 1927 Le Mans 24 Hour race

I am researching the marque Theophile Schneider and am interested on any leads to information on what has become known as the "White House" crash (1927 Le Mans race) involving Bentley, Theophile Schneider and Aries.

Whilst the event/crash is generally well recorded including some images after the road was cleared of damaged vehicles (especially Sammy Davis' book). Not surprisingly the images I have seen depict the Bentleys involved and ther aren't many of these. I would be interested to know of any contemporary accounts and especially images showing either of the Schneiders involved.

I am especially interested as I am the current custodian of a 2 litre Schneider a handful of chassis numbers away from the two cars that raced at Le Mans in 1926. A 2 litre Schneider placed sixth in the 1926 race behind the Lorraine Dietrichs and OMs.

Any information/images on this matter or vintage Schneiders generally gratefully received. I am also interested in sharing/exchanging information on the marque with a view to establishing a register of surviving vehicles both veteran and vintage.

Thanks

Marc

According to French historian Serge Pozzoli, the engines of the Le Mans specials were modified by Edmond Moglia.
One of these cars ended up in the Henri Malartre collection/musée de Rochetaillé.

Any information/images on this matter or vintage Schneiders generally gratefully received.Marc

Have you seen this?

http://www.lemans-hi...amp;equipa= 12

Vince H.

Hello Marc I find these French articles for you.

According to French historian Serge Pozzoli, the engines of the Le Mans specials were modified by Edmond Moglia.
One of these cars ended up in the Henri Malartre collection/musée de Rochetaillé.

Thanks Robert.

Yes I had heard that the heads of the Le Mans cars were modified by Moglia to take twin inlet manifolds and possibly also a supercharger. I have seen photos of the car at the Malartre museum. I believe it is chassis #125.

Marc

Hello Marc I find these French articles for you.

Many thanks Haine for the images. The La Vie de l' Auto and La Fana are new to me.

Regards

Marc

Have you seen this?

http://www.lemans-hi...amp;equipa= 12

Vince H.

Thanks Vince. This site and image is new for me.

Marc

Hello Marc,

For the FANA page, it's from AUTO PASSION n° 26

So these following files come from my 'bible" about Le Mans race.









Copyright : Haine Kane

Théo Schneider in the 1926 "Catalogue des Catalogues" :
http://farm4.static....2704f5224_b.jpg

Did the Le Mans cars use the 300-cm Sport chassis, in combination with a slightly rebored engine of 72,5/120 mm and the Moglia cylinder head?

Has anybody details of this cylinder head designed by Edmond Moglia for the Le Mans specials?

Moglia's patent for improved cylinder heads:

http://v3.espacenet....mp;locale=en_EP

Hello Marc,

For the FANA page, it's from AUTO PASSION n° 26

So these following files come from my 'bible" about Le Mans race.









Copyright : Haine Kane

Hello Haine,

Thanks for this information. Is this your research? I was looking at the information on car numbers 11 & 12. Your information for the 1927 race indicates that car #11 was abandoned following the "Maison Blanc" crash on the 26th lap. However, following the crash, car #12 seems to have continued until the 34th lap. I had assumed that both cars had been abandoned on the same lap as the crash.

Are you able to confirm your information? Do you have any other information re the crash itself? Some sources suggest that aside from the two Schneiders and all three Bentleys, an Aries and/or a S.A.R.A. were also involved.

There seems to be a lack of clarity.

Marc

Théo Schneider in the 1926 "Catalogue des Catalogues" :
http://farm4.static....2704f5224_b.jpg

Did the Le Mans cars use the 300-cm Sport chassis, in combination with a slightly rebored engine of 72,5/120 mm and the Moglia cylinder head?

Has anybody details of this cylinder head designed by Edmond Moglia for the Le Mans specials?

Hello Robert,

In response to your questions it would seem logical that the "sport" chassis was employed for racing including Le Mans. A key difference between the so-called touring chassis and the sport chassis was the use of pushrod operated overhead valves.

Chassis #125 in the Malartre Museum (one of the cars from the 1926 race) certainly has an OHV engine. Exactly what modifications beyond the standard sport chassis that the car employed is less clear. I can confirm that the Malartre car has:
1. Modified inlet manifold (and thus the head itself) fitted with two large Zenith carburetters. Probably 36mm. The standard chassis came with a single Zenith 36HAK. This would suggest that the heads were Moglia designed although the head on the Malartre car looks (externally visually) closer to the standard production item than the illustration supplied by Henk on this thread. Would be difficult to say with any certainty though without getting inside it.
2. Two extra inlets from the radiator header tank into the exhaust manifold side of the head. Obviously to aid cooling at the higher sustained speeds of Le Mans in the absence of a water pump.
3. A larger than standard Weymann vacuum fuel tank.
4. The higher ratio differential which was a standard factory fitment on the sport chassis anyway.

I have not been able to substantiate other claims which is not to say they are not true. I have read from a number of sources that car number 27 (finished sixth in 1926 Le Mans) was timed down pit-straight at 140kph. This could well be true with the sort of modifications described above although not recommended for sustained periods. Sufficient oil to the rockers was an issue at those speeds and the cars (pre-1927) actually came from the factory with a lever on the dash that supplied extra oil into the rocker area. Later chassis dispensed with this idea in favor of a valve that automatically metered oil into the area.

I have also heard that the company experimented with a Cozette supercharger fitted car and again would not be surprising but seen nothing to substantiate.

The cars were also campaigned at many other events including the "Route des Pavees", numerous hill-climbs and possibly as far away as Algeria. I know for certain that one was entered in the first Australian GP of 1929. It failed to finish when a wheel departed from the car at speed.

I am not aware of your claim that the Le Mans cars had slightly over-bored engines. Do you know where this information comes from?


Marc

Many thanks
for the Moglia patent, Henk,
and
for the description of the Malartre chassis, Marc.

Rebored engine: just a question on my part.

Slight tengent. Someone suggested to me that the famous Lartgue photo from the 1912 Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. actually shows a Th. Schneider, rather than a Delage as usually claimed. Don't know if this fits in with known competition entry numbers, etc?

Edited by Odseybod, 27 May 2009 - 11:50.

Slight tengent. Someone suggested to me that the famous Lartgue photo from the 1912 Grand Prix de l'A.C.F. actually shows a Th. Schneider, rather than a Delage as usually claimed. Don't know if this fits in with known competition entry numbers, etc?

Famous photo and yes it is a THS rather than the oft claimed Delage. Car #6 of the photo suggests that it is the car driven by Rene Croquet into 10th place but not the 1912 race but the 1913 GP de l'A.C.F. There were three THS in this race. For cars of modest performance compared to the likes of Peugeot and Delage the marque acquitted itself well. Champoisseau in car #16 finished 7th overall and Thomas in car #20 finished 9th. Contemporary reports suggest that what they lacked in outright performance they made up for in reliability and handling.

Marc

Famous photo and yes it is a THS rather than the oft claimed Delage. Car #6 of the photo suggests that it is the car driven by Rene Croquet into 10th place but not the 1912 race but the 1913 GP de l'A.C.F. There were three THS in this race. For cars of modest performance compared to the likes of Peugeot and Delage the marque acquitted itself well. Champoisseau in car #16 finished 7th overall and Thomas in car #20 finished 9th. Contemporary reports suggest that what they lacked in outright performance they made up for in reliability and handling.

Marc

Thanks for the date correction, Marc. Encouraged by this, a little digging revealed car #6 (as in the photo) was indeed a Th. Schneider driven by Rene Croquet, which finished in 10th place, 1 hour 19 minutes behind the winner Georges Boillot's Peugeot after 294 km of racing. Interestingly, the #6 car in the 1912 race (the date geneally given for the Lartigue photo) was a Darracq - though it failed to make the start, that could account for the confusion over the make of car in the photo.

Hello Haine,

Thanks for this information. Is this your research? I was looking at the information on car numbers 11 & 12. Your information for the 1927 race indicates that car #11 was abandoned following the "Maison Blanc" crash on the 26th lap. However, following the crash, car #12 seems to have continued until the 34th lap. I had assumed that both cars had been abandoned on the same lap as the crash.

Are you able to confirm your information? Do you have any other information re the crash itself? Some sources suggest that aside from the two Schneiders and all three Bentleys, an Aries and/or a S.A.R.A. were also involved.

There seems to be a lack of clarity.

Marc

Hello Marc,

Yes these informations come from my research about Le Mans race.

I find them in several books from the official ACO schedule.

One thing is sure, that the crash arrive in the 35th lap
2 THEO SCHNEIDER : first THEO SCHNIEDER (26 laps) stop definitively , the official retirement for the second THEO SCHNEIDER arrived in the 34th lap (ACO sources)
3 BENTLEY : 2 of them stop definitively ; DULLER with 34 laps and CALLINGHAM with 35 laps ; and Sammy DAVIS BENTLEY's can restart
ARIES : just a tyre was punctured, she can restart but was retired because she had a lot of laps late. (she just race 23 laps)

One analysis (for me) the first THEO SCHNEIDER have several laps late (a problem in the begining...????) but I don't find anything in my books...

Sorry I don't know more...

Hello Marc,

Yes these informations come from my research about Le Mans race.

I find them in several books from the official ACO schedule.

One thing is sure, that the crash arrive in the 35th lap
2 THEO SCHNEIDER : first THEO SCHNIEDER (26 laps) stop definitively , the official retirement for the second THEO SCHNEIDER arrived in the 34th lap (ACO sources)
3 BENTLEY : 2 of them stop definitively ; DULLER with 34 laps and CALLINGHAM with 35 laps ; and Sammy DAVIS BENTLEY's can restart
ARIES : just a tyre was punctured, she can restart but was retired because she had a lot of laps late. (she just race 23 laps)

One analysis (for me) the first THEO SCHNEIDER have several laps late (a problem in the begining...????) but I don't find anything in my books...

Sorry I don't know more...

Thanks for the further information Haine.

The ACO data would in my view be reliable. However the available information of the order of events of the 1927 crash leaves a number of questions unanswered for me.

Some of my questions: What were the respective race positions of the cars involved in the crash at the time of the crash? In what order did the cars enter the White House bend at the time of the crash? According to ACO data #12 THS (Chanterelle/Schlitz) crashed at the scene of the accident. Your information indicates that it voluntarily retired on its 34th lap (same lap as #2 Bentley (D'Erlanger/Duller).

Does this infer that #12 was on its 34th lap at the time of the crash and unable to continue as a result of the crash? On page 260 of the Moity book "Les 24 Heures Du Mans 1923-1982" it states that the #12 THS retired on the 34th lap due to the accident having covered 586.908km. It also states that #2 Bentley retired on its 34th lap due to the accident having covered 586.908km.

This suggests to me that #12 THS followed #2 Bentley into the bend prior to the crash (or vice versus). This in turn suggests that up until the time of the crash the THS was offering serious opposition to the 3 litre Bentleys of Duller and Davis. The Wikipedia entry for 1927 Le Mans certainly indicates that both the Aries and the THS were serious competition for the Bentley team.

Contemporary accounts of the accident, including the account of Davis himself in #3 Bentley are, as would be expected focused on the experience of the Bentley team, and unclear about the order of events. What can I think be deduced is that #11 THS crashed first into a farm shed on the left side of the road coming into the "White House" bend. On page 35 of of the Davis book "A Racing Motorist" there is a photo of the scene after the road was cleared. The photo does show the damage the THS inflicted on the shed. It appears that #1 (Callingham) was hot on the heels of #11 and had to swerve to avoid the THS causing the Bentley to end up on its side further down on the right side of the road.

What happened then seems less clear to me. From Davis' eye witness description it would appear that #2 Bentley (Duller) was next into the bend and crashed into #1 Bentley. In his book "The Racing Motorist" Davis writes that when he came into the bend (following Duller) at speed he had almost no time to react to the carnage. He ended up side on to the wreckage of #1 and #2. He states that behind him and further back "...a big French car stuck out over the road" (page 53). This presumably was #12 THS (Tabourin). This would imply that #11 was yet to arrive. Davis also writes that later still #14 S.A.R.A. sped around the bend and also crashed. This would seem incorrect as ACO and Hodges records #29 Aries of (Gabriel and Paris) as the last car to crash at the scene.

However, in George Fraichard's book "The Le Mans Story" Fraichard quotes Davis (page 26) as saying that when he (Davis) arrived on the scene in addition to the two Bentleys both of the THS cars were already on the scene. This version if correct might suggest that #11 THS was ahead of the Davis Bentley at the time of the accident.

As to your question why the #11 THS was only on its 26th lap at the time of the accident I am not sure. Perhaps it had been having mechanical problems at that early stage of the race.

Marc

What were the respective race positions of the cars involved in the crash at the time of the crash?

Contemporary newspaper reports may give some answers to your questions.

Shortly before the accident happened the following cars were still running:

lap 35: #3 Bentley (Benjafield-Davis)
lap 34: #1 Bentley (Clement-Callingham); #4 Ariès (Laly-Chassagne)
lap 33: #2 Bentley (d’Erlanger-Duller)
lap 31: #23 Salmson (Casse-Rousseau)
lap 30: #9 Fasto (Brosselin-Thelluson); #25 Salmson (De Victor-Hasley)
lap 28: #12 Th. Schneider (Chanterelle-Schiltz); #16 S.C.A.P. (Guilbert-Clément)
lap 27: #20 Tracta (Grégoire-Lemesle); #8 Fasto (Leroy-Mesnel)
lap 26: #10 Fasto (Doré-Hellot); #21 S.A.R.A. (Marandet-Lécureul)
lap 25: #11 Th. Schneider (Tabourin-Poitier)
lap 24: #15 S.C.A.P. (Desvaux-Vallon)
lap 23: #22 S.A.R.A. (Armand-Duval)
lap 21: #26 E.H.P. (Bouriat-Bussienne)
lap 16: #29 Ariès (Gabriel-Paris)

(I couldn’t trace the exact order of cars that were in the same lap, except for lap 34, where the #1 Bentley was leading the #4 Ariès).

Note that the three Bentleys were not in the same lap. The #11 Th. Schneider was ten laps behind.

Edited by Henk, 30 May 2009 - 20:20.

Contemporary newspaper reports may give some answers to your questions.

Shortly before the accident happened the following cars were still running:

lap 35: #3 Bentley (Benjafield-Davis)
lap 34: #1 Bentley (Clement-Callingham); #4 Ariès (Laly-Chassagne)
lap 33: #2 Bentley (d’Erlanger-Duller)
lap 31: #23 Salmson (Casse-Rousseau)
lap 30: #9 Fasto (Brosselin-Thelluson); #25 Salmson (De Victor-Hasley)
lap 28: #12 Th. Schneider (Chanterelle-Schiltz); #16 S.C.A.P. (Guilbert-Clément)
lap 27: #20 Tracta (Grégoire-Lemesle); #8 Fasto (Leroy-Mesnel)
lap 26: #10 Fasto (Doré-Hellot); #21 S.A.R.A. (Marandet-Lécureul)
lap 25: #11 Th. Schneider (Tabourin-Poitier)
lap 24: #15 S.C.A.P. (Desvaux-Vallon)
lap 23: #22 S.A.R.A. (Armand-Duval)
lap 21: #26 E.H.P. (Bouriat-Bussienne)
lap 16: #29 Ariès (Gabriel-Paris)

(I couldn’t trace the exact order of cars that were in the same lap, except for lap 34, where the #1 Bentley was leading the #4 Ariès).

Note that the three Bentleys were not in the same lap. The #11 Th. Schneider was ten laps behind.

Thanks for this information. It adds to the bank of knowledge.

In terms of how the accident unfolded it would seem to fit. Various accounts coincide with car #11 coming into its 26th lap followed closely by car #1 coming into its 35th lap. Car #11 crashes into the farm building at the "White House" bend whilst car #1 following close behind but unable to sight #11 until it is too late also crashes.

This does not tell us the order that the other cars approached the scene of the accident but it does suggest that #12 THS was not badly damaged as a result of hitting its sister car and was able to continue until the 34th lap when it retired (as per ACO records in the Moity book). We know that the Bentleys #1 and #2 were abandoned at the crash site. The fact that car #4 (the Aries of Laly and Chassagne) was not involved suggests that it might have passed through the White House corner prior to the accident. This would have placed the Aries in front of car #1 but behind #3 at the time of the crash. When #3 became involved in the pile up the Aries was able to move into the lead until the dramatic closing stages of the race when in the final hour and a half the Aries engine expired allowing Davis to win the race.

The French newspapers don’t confirm any involvement of the #12 Th. Schneider in the crash. All reports mention only four damaged cars. The track was rapidly cleared.

According to ‘Le Petit Journal’, Schneider made the announcement that, because of the accident to his driver Tabourin, he had decided to refrain from further participation and to withdraw his second car from the race.

The French newspapers don’t confirm any involvement of the #12 Th. Schneider in the crash. All reports mention only four damaged cars. The track was rapidly cleared.

According to ‘Le Petit Journal’, Schneider made the announcement that, because of the accident to his driver Tabourin, he had decided to refrain from further participation and to withdraw his second car from the race.

Thanks again for the information Henk. Contemporary reports are often the most accurate.

Marc