1965 Tulpenrallye

From the Tulpenrallye website, the 1964 Tulip Rally Touring Class results are given as follows:-

#	Crew					 Nat   Car				Pos
 119 T.Mäkinen-T.Ambrose	   SF/GB Morris Cooper S	 1   
 56  H.Greder-M.Delalande	  F	 Ford Falcon Sprint  2   
 74  C.M.Skogh-L.Berggren	  S	 Volvo 122S		  3   
 144 K.Pfnier-W.Berns		  D	 DKW F 11			4   
 147 E.Carlsson-G.Palm		 S	 Saab 96			 5   
 53  P.Ruby-G.Raschig	 	 D	 DKW F12			 6   
 146 P.Moss-Carlsson/E.Nyström GB	Saab 96			 6   
 1a  J.Cuff-D.Anderson	 	GB	Jaguar E type	   7   
 128 N.Koob-A.Wies			 L	 DKW F12			 7   
 125 P.Gelé-C.Laurent		  F	 DKW F12			 8

I agree that Pat Moss finished 6th, confirmed from other sources, but can anyone perhaps explain these results from the website - were two crews both classed as 6th and 7th, rather than 6th-9th? Any ideas?

Edited by Darren Galpin, 17 May 2010 - 13:05.

From the Tulpenrallye website, the 1965 Tulip Rally Touring Class results are given as follows:-

# Crew Nat Car Pos
119 T.Mäkinen-T.Ambrose SF/GB Morris Cooper S 1

I agree that Pat Moss finished 6th, confirmed from other sources, but can anyone perhaps explain these results from the website - were two crews both classed as 6th and 7th, rather than 6th-9th? Any ideas?

These are the 1964 results, the 1965 Tulpenrally was won by Rosemary Smith's Hillmann Imp.

Edited by hansfohr, 17 May 2010 - 12:54.

My mistake, should read 1964 Tulip Rally (and post has been edited and corrected). There were two classes in '64, with no overall winner announced. The results above are for the touring car class.

~
I agree that Pat Moss finished 6th, confirmed from other sources, but can anyone perhaps explain these results from the website - were two crews both classed as 6th and 7th, rather than 6th-9th? Any ideas?

I think it's simply an oversight by the website compiler: Logically if nos 53 and 146 were joint 6th, nos 1a and 128 must be joint 8th as there were 7 cars ahead of them and no 125 9th as there were 8 cars ahead of it.

An E-Type Jaguar is an unlikely "Touring Car" unless possibly it was a 2+2

From the results in the Autosport report (1st May 1964):

Touring Car Class
1 T.Mäkinen/T.Ambrose
2 H.Greder/M.Delalande
3 C.M.Skogh/L.Berggren
4 K.Pfnier/W.Berns
5 E.Carlsson/G.Palm
6 P.Moss-Carlsson/E.Nyström

N.Koob/A.Wies (DKW F12)and P.Gelé/C.Laurent (DKW F12)
also appear in the touring car class (851-1000cc) results.

GT Class
1 DJ Morley/ E Morley (AH 3000)
2 B Jansson/E Petterson (Porsche Carrera Abarth)
3 H Taylor/B Melia (Cortina GT)
4 J Vernaeve/Y Deprez (Mini-Cooper S)
5 W Gass/W Frey (Porsche 1600)
6 P Ruby/G Raschig (DKW F12)

The J.Cuff/D.Anderson Jaguar E type appears in the GT class (over 2000cc) results.

This is the result as published in Automobile Year.

Edited by Milan Fistonic, 18 May 2010 - 04:50.

Thanks Milan. According to what I have read elsewhere, there was no overall result declared for 1964, so the Automobile Year table, although correct for the index points, isn't the official result.....

you have the results of the historic rally of Tulips in recent years

I have pictures of 2008/2009 location in Annecy

From the various sources these results of the 1964 Tulipen Rallye can be deduced:

position
							in class
	# Car					TC  GT  Drivers (Nat,age)		   Index
  119 BMC Cooper S			1	  Timo Mäkinen (Fin,26) 
									 Tony Ambrose (GBr,30)	   97,23
	  Austin Healey 3000		  1  Donald Morley (GBr,c.32)
									 Erle Morley (GBr,c.32)	  97,41
	  Porsche Carrera Abarth	  2  Berndt Jansson (Swe,33)
									 Erik Petterson (Swe)		97,63
   56 Ford Falcon Sprint	  2	  Henri Gréder (Fra,33)
									 Martial Delalande (Fra)	 98,81
	  Ford Cortina GT			 3  Henry Taylor (GBr)
									 Brian Melia (GBr)		   98,95
	  BMC Cooper S				4  Julien Vernaeve (Bel,33)
									 Yves Deprez (Bel)		   99,39
   74 Volvo 122 S			 3	  Carl-Magnus Skogh (Swe,38)
									 Lennart Berggren (Swe)	  99,50
	  Porsche 1600				5  Wilfried Gass (Ger,c.35)
									 Gerd Frey (Ger)			 99,65
  144 DKW F11				 4	  Kurt Pfnier (Ger)
									 Wolfram Berns (Ger)		 99,91
  147 Saab 96				 5	  Erik Carlsson (Swe,35)
									 Gunnar Palm (Swe,27)	   100,54
  146 Saab 96				 6	  Pat Moss-Carlsson (GBr,29)
									 Liz Nyström (Swe,c.21)	 100,85
   53 DKW F12					 6  Peter Ruby (Ger)
									 Gert Raschig (Ger)		 100,99
  128 DKW F12				 7	  Nicolas Koob (Lux,33)
									 A. Wies (Lux)			  101,04
  125 DKW F12				 8	  Pierre Gelé (Fra,c.38)
									 Claude Laurent (Fra,28)	101,20
	  BMC Cooper S			9	  Brian Culcheth (GBr,25)
									 John Davenport (GBr,24)	101,33
   1a Jaguar E type			   7  John Cuff (GBr)
									 D. Anderson (GBr)		  101,39
	  Saab				   10	  Olle Dahl (Swe,44)
									 L. Haag (Swe)			  101,79
	  Austin Healey				  Peter Moon (GBr)
									 Denise McCluggage (USA,37) 101,87
	  BMC Cooper					 Peter Riley (GBr,33)
									 Ann Riley (GBr)			102,42
	  Saab						9  Åke Andersson (Swe,23)
										Axdahl (Swe)			102,75
..
	  Saab					   11  Anders Sigurdsson (Swe,38)

Edited by ReWind, 20 May 2010 - 17:31.

From the various sources these results of the 1964 Tulipen Rallye can be deduced:[code=auto:0]

Yes, but.... The index points for Cuff/Anderson and where that places him in class does not agree with the placing according to the Tulpenrallye website list......

According to your initial post Cuff/Anderson were assigned to "pos. 7" which according to "my" results is their correct position in the GT class.

According to your initial post Cuff/Anderson were assigned to "pos. 7" which according to "my" results is their correct position in the GT class.

You would be correct - some issues in my data caused by confusion with another source I was using....

as an aside: why is DKW F12 #53 in the GT class while #125 and #128 are in the Touring car class as is F11 #144?

as an aside: why is DKW F12 #53 in the GT class while #125 and #128 are in the Touring car class as is F11 #144?

Up to 31.12.1965, Appendix J placed saloon cars modified beyond the bounds of Group 2 Touring cars into the GT class, alongside true GT cars (the wining Mini Cooper S on the 65 Monte was in the Group 3 GT category). That may be an explanation, or it may be just another example of confused results.