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Paul Hembery Doesn't Get It


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Poll: Should Paul Hembrey learn to STFU? (168 member(s) have cast votes)

I really love F1 this year, but I really think that Paul Hembery should learn to STFU

  1. I 100% agree (60 votes [35.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.93%

  2. I dont agree, I like to hear him speak on and on! (58 votes [34.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.73%

  3. I dont agree; I just cant stand the racing this year (49 votes [29.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.34%

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#151 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:47

Laughable that someone would say they're 'using their skills' now.

Thank you for sharing an opposing opinion.

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#152 PretentiousBread

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:50

Thank you for sharing an opposing opinion.


:lol: You must work in customer service with that politeness :)

#153 Sakae

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:53

You should not listen to Hughes he is generally quite clueless, and this article is proof of it. It is completely wrong. What has historically been known in motorsport, especally F1 as the great leveler? Where talent can outshine cars, where the best talents shine brightest.Wet weather racing, or low grip conditions. The above article accurately describes wet weather driving. Drivers cannot push as hard as they want in the wet, the cars are awefully slow, much slower than pirelli's in the dry, yet those are the hardest most talent testing conditions in the sport, so Hughes, is totally wrong. When the grip is reduced the challenge is increased.

If Mark Webber, Mark hughes and co and others claim that the sport is no longer a challenge, and pushing, and is so easy, and that its just a matter of cruising around at 80% according to a delta, then why have the gaps between team mates been probably bigger than ever in decades? If Hughes premise is true, the team mates should be nose to tail running around in a train, but that doesnt happen. Webber finished 40 seconds behind race winner Vettel at Bahrain. If Vettel was just cruising around conserving tyres, what the hell was Mark Webber doing? And why is the gap between Alonso and Massa so massive if the sport is no longer talent dependant and easy? The gap between them was smaller in 2010 on the harder tyres because driving was easier back then.

Don't confuse the drivers and teams not liking the tyres with them being bad for the sport. Drivers like things as easy as possible, they want the cars as fast as possible, so they are naturally complaining. They are the last ones I would listen to.

Talented driver will differentiate himself from others. Some are more distinct than others, and only a fool would deny that. Focus which I think you missed is however elsewhere. I am coming back to football analogy; some of us do not want to see a game played on a muddy field and with a wet ball. We want game played on the dry field, and with the dry ball. It would be nice to narrow run between three or five drivers, seeing them as they drive their wheels off. What I see however instead are twenty candidates driving their rubber off, and I am not sure anymore whether it is a driver who is running the race, or it is a pitwall team. Yeah, game is on, but is it a type of game we came to watch?

#154 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:55

That was stupid, mainly because it´s the other way around. Now the fastest guys CAN win the races, instead of getting stuck behind slower guys. People with the best pace on Sunday have much better chances to end up winning now than before. So now is the time when the fastest guys on Sunday are winning.

I was referring to an example where a driver can punch in fast lap after fast lap on a Sunday for up to 50 laps like we saw back in 2010. This season drivers can push but not for as long and I like that. They are forced to manage their tyres for some of the time and thats where it gets interesting for me. Holding back and then pushing to catch others out or pushing to gain an advantage and then becoming conservative spices it up IMO. As I originally said its obvious its not to everybodys tastes but as fans we all have different ideas on what F1 should be. I'm not suggesting the opposing view is laughable or pathetic because that is disrespectful IMO. Pirelli were given a brief and they have fullfilled it and are taking the flack from fans who don't agree with how things have gone. Thats tough really as the FIA and the teams have escaped a large amount of this criticism. Lets not forget the teams asked for tyres like this and supported it.

#155 ivand911

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:57

I don't think anyone here is against unpredictability. The problem is how unpredictability is achieved. The problem is this tyres disadvantage some drivers and cars at every track. And some of them are with advantage. That it is. So where is the fair element in here? It not exist. When racing is not fair ,what is this? I don't think tyres should do that. They should bring equal base from where the best cars and drivers to win. If that is Maldo and Williams , OK.
And for 100 times , can we forget about this stupid thing that they were asked to do it? They were pointed something in 2010, the rest was only them. Nobody asked small tyre window. Pirelli decided this year that F1 need more aggressive tyre, They decided, nobody else. So, stop with that BS. Or show proof for opposite.

#156 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 11:59

:lol: You must work in customer service with that politeness :)

I did once upon a time yes, but now I work as a Design Engineer where I am given a brief and expected to produce a product as close as possible to the specification. That may be why I am sympathetic towards Pirelli. I don't expect to be blamed in my profession for designing something to a clients order. You ask, you get :)

#157 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:03

I don't think anyone here is against unpredictability. The problem is how unpredictability is achieved. The problem is this tyres disadvantage some drivers and cars at every track. And some of them are with advantage. That it is. So where is the fair element in here?

The fair element is the fact every team is given exactly the same tyres and its their job to design a car that maximizes any potential they can possibly get. There always has to be a team who doesn't do as good a job as the other and this has always happened in F1. If it was a situation where one team were getting a different set of tyres to the rest of the field, then that would be unfair and IMO cheating. Everyone is in the same boat and some have done a better job than the others. My favourite driver isn't even at the top of the championship or even won a race but for me that doesn't matter. I think whoever wins it this year will have earnt it on merit. :)

#158 Sakae

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:08

I did once upon a time yes, but now I work as a Design Engineer where I am given a brief and expected to produce a product as close as possible to the specification. That may be why I am sympathetic towards Pirelli. I don't expect to be blamed in my profession for designing something to a clients order. You ask, you get :)

In Cartesian world there is a point where you are. Little bit further there is another point - called challenging, which is followed by a vertical axis and nearby point that is called f****up. Mr. Hembery however he has found another point beyond that one.

Edited by Sakae, 19 May 2012 - 12:09.


#159 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:10

In Cartesian world there is a point where you are. Little bit further there is another point - called challenging, which is followed by a vertical axis and nearby point that is called f****up. Mr. Hembery however he has found another point beyond this one.

I really don't understand in the slightest.

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#160 Sakae

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:15

I really don't understand in the slightest.

It's probably because you aren't a design engineer for too long, or you haven't really brought any of your own products to the market as yet.

#161 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:19

It's probably because you aren't a design engineer for too long, or you haven't really brought any of your own products to the market as yet.

Is that right? OK lol.

#162 fed up

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:23

The fair element is the fact every team is given exactly the same tyres and its their job to design a car that maximizes any potential they can possibly get. There always has to be a team who doesn't do as good a job as the other and this has always happened in F1. If it was a situation where one team were getting a different set of tyres to the rest of the field, then that would be unfair and IMO cheating. Everyone is in the same boat and some have done a better job than the others. My favourite driver isn't even at the top of the championship or even won a race but for me that doesn't matter. I think whoever wins it this year will have earnt it on merit. :)


I'm not sure this is the case.

For the life of me I can't see how the Williams was the fastest car on pace at the last race. Their car was a laughing stock last year and they've had a huge upheaval in staff. Coughlan can not be credited with the performance as he joined to late to have an influence on this year's car.

In my mind Pastor had some sort of advantage over the field. Tyres?

#163 tifosiMac

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:25

I'm not sure this is the case.

For the life of me I can't see how the Williams was the fastest car on pace at the last race. Their car was a laughing stock last year and they've had a huge upheaval in staff. Coughlan can not be credited with the performance as he joined to late to have an influence on this year's car.

In my mind Pastor had some sort of advantage over the field. Tyres?

Their setup combined with the tyres suited that particular track maybe? In Monaco it could be McLaren or Red Bull. I don't think Williams were somehow given different tyres to the rest of the field, do you really think that? Why was Senna so far off Maldonado's pace for example.

#164 ivand911

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:42

That was stupid, mainly because it´s the other way around. Now the fastest guys CAN win the races, instead of getting stuck behind slower guys. People with the best pace on Sunday have much better chances to end up winning now than before. So now is the time when the fastest guys on Sunday are winning.

BS, the drivers with best tyres/car combo are wining. I mean this guys who hit the tyre operating window at that track. They could be not the best drivers, not the best cars, they just hit the window(sometimes they don't know how). So, what we are really watching?

Edited by ivand911, 19 May 2012 - 12:44.


#165 ivand911

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 12:49

The fair element is the fact every team is given exactly the same tyres and its their job to design a car that maximizes any potential they can possibly get. There always has to be a team who doesn't do as good a job as the other and this has always happened in F1. If it was a situation where one team were getting a different set of tyres to the rest of the field, then that would be unfair and IMO cheating. Everyone is in the same boat and some have done a better job than the others. My favourite driver isn't even at the top of the championship or even won a race but for me that doesn't matter. I think whoever wins it this year will have earnt it on merit. :)

Cars are always different. That was not problem before. But ,it is with 2012 tyres. When the team have to that(design the cars around the tyres) before? Why they have to do that? Why not design it around brake disks or brake pads? Because their producers knows what real racing is. And because they don't want to be the centre of F1. You can't expect different cars to hit small tyre windows the same way. What will follow? Cars will get similar, I mean equal suspension, to get the same results.

Edited by ivand911, 19 May 2012 - 12:52.


#166 fed up

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 13:03

Their setup combined with the tyres suited that particular track maybe? In Monaco it could be McLaren or Red Bull. I don't think Williams were somehow given different tyres to the rest of the field, do you really think that? Why was Senna so far off Maldonado's pace for example.


My conspiracy theory is that a congressman is questioning the legitamacy of Maldonado's sponsorship of the Williams team. What better way to demonstrate the value of said membership through winning a race.

For Pastor to beat the Ferrari of Nando on pace points - in my mind - to some form of devine intervention.


#167 jamiegc

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 13:21

Why was Senna so far off Maldonado's pace for example.


Parking it in the kitty litter didn't help :rolleyes:

Without the spin he'd have been in Q2 and who knows from there what he may have done.

#168 Cavani

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 13:45

My conspiracy theory is that a congressman is questioning the legitamacy of Maldonado's sponsorship of the Williams team. What better way to demonstrate the value of said membership through winning a race.

For Pastor to beat the Ferrari of Nando on pace points - in my mind - to some form of devine intervention.


Posted Image

nothing more

Edited by Cavani, 19 May 2012 - 13:49.


#169 Skinnyguy

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 14:02

The whiners are the ones "not getting it". The field is closer than ever before, with everyone except FI, TR and new teams VERY close and able to race for the lead. Plus the top teams are making mistakes, i.e. Hamilton should have won in Spain. That´s what´s causing these results, not the tyres. In 2009 there was no Pirelli, and teams were up and down all the way too.



#170 Petroltorque

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 17:49

I personally don't understand why some people think that Pirelli are not doing a good job on the tyres. F1 is an engineering led discipline. The tyres remain a constaint. The variability is down to the inherent grip levels of each chassis. The performance can be further confounded by changing temperature and different tracks. Having followed F1 since 1984 I don't think the situation we had when Bridgestone was sole supplier was conducive to good racing, where any tyre option or prime could complete a full race distance.
Its only a matter of time before the teams optimise their performance to counter the level of tyre deg.


#171 aditya-now

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 17:48

To be honest I see it as a lot of fans who like long dominant stints on durable tyres with a predictable winner as the ones who don't get it. Finally we have the element back where drivers are expected to use their skills and look after their tyres rather than the fastest guy winning the race. This isn't the first time in history cars can't go flat out for the entire race, and IMO its been fantastic for the sport. Its not to everybodys taste and thats to be expected, but we had the same outcry before 2009 when the regs concerning wings and aero were changed and people had to get used to it. Give it time.


To me, 2012 is already a classic season - like 1982 and 1983 were. The racing is close and unpredictability is a quality that is there time and again in any sport, be it soccer, skiing, F1 or any other sport. It is cyclical, and it comes only every few decades or so. In 2012 there is a common challenge to everyone, and the team and the driver who solve this task the best consistently will come out on top.

Additionally we have the rise of a potential new super star - Pastor Maldonado - who is to say Pastor is not going to be another Juan-Manuel Fangio or another Ayrton Senna? He voiced forth already some very original thoughts, that he first wants to "build the world championship" with Williams before going to another team. Many other drivers would simply use Williams as a jumping board to enter one of the big teams. So watch out, Pastor might be one of the greats of the sport.

We have 6 WDCs and an excellent Kimi. We witness again his quality, whereas some others, who have enjoyed the benefit of superior material in years bygone are struggling. What does it tell us?

Most important of all, in 2012 we see that among the drivers Fernando Alonso has dropped the ball the least, and amongst the teams the team from Enstone is really delivering a consistently super job.

We see the weakness in the McLaren organization - on more than one level - the weakness in Red Bull when Adrian Newey did not get the chance (= rule change) to deliver one of his super concepts, the weakness in Ferrari on the technical side. What does it tell us?

We see that a team reorganization like the one initiated by Adam Parr, using top people like Coughlan and Gillan in the process can turn the fortunes of an ailing team around mightily. What does it tell us? Which other teams might be in need of a team reorganization like the one that was courageously done at Williams?

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

None of the five wins so far were undeserved - Rosberg had it a long time coming, while Alonso, Vettel and Button showed their usual quality. Maldonado was mentioned already above and Raikkonen/Grosjean/Perez are probably still going to win this year - not undeservedly, IMHO.

Do not cry lottery!!! then, if and when Kimi and Sergio win, because their wins will be on merit as well. Do not use the lottery word at all - 2012 is just a reshuffle, that Dietrich Mateschitz of course does not like, but then: 2013 will present us with another reshuffle. One that might suit Adrian Newey again.

Edited by aditya-now, 20 May 2012 - 18:45.


#172 F1Champion

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 18:04

I shook my head at Hembery's latest comments, its sounds more like he wants the tyres to be the form decider and not the cars or drivers.

#173 F1Champion

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 18:06

Agreed fbx, Paul Hembery doesn't get it at all.



No. These types of unpredictable races we've seen are not WORTH ruining on-the-limit racing, where drivers can battle each other for a longer period of time, back and forth (not just one pass!). I want to see man and machinery on the limit, especially man (I care a lot about the human factor in racing). If the cars are fast and hard to get absolute maximum out of, then we will start seeing driver mistakes, and we will see people who stand out. The human factor is where the unpredictability shall come from, not tyres which are engineered to be something.

Produce ground effect, mechanical-grip cars. Make the cars harder to drive. There you go, you have unpredictability from the human-factor, you have individuals who stand out from the rest. You have racers battling their own car to get max out of it, while battling others on the track at the same time. You have excitement and passion. You have brilliant human performances that are not about "oh my tyres held up when I cruised!", but raw speed and control.

I don't want to see slow-but-consistent-robots who jump into cars and grind their way to the finish (and press a button whenever they feel like passing), when they know they can actually go much faster. They should ALWAYS be as fast as they can, with concentration levels at a maximum.


The "excitement" we have now comes only from the performance of the cars and tyres. That doesn't excite me. What excite me is what a racer can do with his car - and that has been extremely limited by Pirelli, which I hate.

When someone won a race a few years ago, their joy was real and you could feel that they had really given their all during the race. Now you have them over radio saying "Good work team - the plan with making the tyres last worked." or something and that's it.

:up:


#174 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 18:06

To me, 2012 is already a classic season - like 1982 and 1983 were. The racing is close and unpredictability is a quality that is there time and again in any sport, be it soccer, skiing, F1 or any other sport. It is cyclical, and it comes only every few decades or so. In 2012 there is a common challenge to everyone, and the team and the driver who solve this task the best consistently will come out on top.

Additionally we have the rise of a potential new super star - Pastor Maldonado - who is to say Pastor is not going to be another Juan-Manuel Fangio or another Ayrton Senna? He voiced forth already some very original thoughts, that he first wants to "build the world championship" with Williams before going to another team. Many other drivers would simply use Williams as a jumping board to enter one of the big teams. So watch out, Pastor might be one of the greats of the sport.

We have 6 WDCs and an excellent Kimi. We witness again his quality, whereas some others, who have enjoyed the benefit of superior material in years bygone are struggling. What does it tell us?

Most important of all, in 2012 we see that among the drivers Fernando Alonso has dropped the ball the least, and amongst the teams the team from Enstone is really delivering a consistently super job.

We see the weakness in the McLaren organization - on more than one level - the weakness in Red Bull when Adrian Newey did not get the chance (= rule change) to deliver one of his super concepts, the weakness in Ferrari on the technical side. What does it tell us?

We see that a team reorganization like the one initiated by Adam Parr, using top people like Coughlan and Gillan in the process can turn the fortunes of an ailing team around mightily. What does it tell us? Which other teams might be in need of a team reorganization like the one that was courageously done at Williams?

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

None of the five wins so far were undeserved - Rosberg had it a long time coming, while Alonso, Vettel and Button showed their usual quality. Maldonado was mentioned already above and Raikkonen/Grosjean/Perez are probably still going to win this year - not undeservedly, IMHO.

Do not cry lottery!!! then, if and when Kimi and Sergio win, because their wins will be by merit as well. Do not use the lottery word at all - 2012 is just a reshuffle, that Dietrich Mateschitz of course does not like, but then: 2013 will present us with another reshuffle. One that might suit Adrian Newey again.



:up:

#175 Gemini

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 18:37

To me, 2012 is already a classic season - like 1982 and 1983 were. The racing is close and unpredictability is a quality that is there time and again in any sport, be it soccer, skiing, F1 or any other sport. It is cyclical, and it comes only every few decades or so. In 2012 there is a common challenge to everyone, and the team and the driver who solve this task the best consistently will come out on top.

Additionally we have the rise of a potential new super star - Pastor Maldonado - who is to say Pastor is not going to be another Juan-Manuel Fangio or another Ayrton Senna? He voiced forth already some very original thoughts, that he first wants to "build the world championship" with Williams before going to another team. Many other drivers would simply use Williams as a jumping board to enter one of the big teams. So watch out, Pastor might be one of the greats of the sport.

We have 6 WDCs and an excellent Kimi. We witness again his quality, whereas some others, who have enjoyed the benefit of superior material in years bygone are struggling. What does it tell us?

Most important of all, in 2012 we see that among the drivers Fernando Alonso has dropped the ball the least, and amongst the teams the team from Enstone is really delivering a consistently super job.

We see the weakness in the McLaren organization - on more than one level - the weakness in Red Bull when Adrian Newey did not get the chance (= rule change) to deliver one of his super concepts, the weakness in Ferrari on the technical side. What does it tell us?

We see that a team reorganization like the one initiated by Adam Parr, using top people like Coughlan and Gillan in the process can turn the fortunes of an ailing team around mightily. What does it tell us? Which other teams might be in need of a team reorganization like the one that was courageously done at Williams?

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

None of the five wins so far were undeserved - Rosberg had it a long time coming, while Alonso, Vettel and Button showed their usual quality. Maldonado was mentioned already above and Raikkonen/Grosjean/Perez are probably still going to win this year - not undeservedly, IMHO.

Do not cry lottery!!! then, if and when Kimi and Sergio win, because their wins will be by merit as well. Do not use the lottery word at all - 2012 is just a reshuffle, that Dietrich Mateschitz of course does not like, but then: 2013 will present us with another reshuffle. One that might suit Adrian Newey again.


:up:

#176 artista

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 19:13

To me, 2012 is already a classic season - like 1982 and 1983 were. The racing is close and unpredictability is a quality that is there time and again in any sport, be it soccer, skiing, F1 or any other sport. It is cyclical, and it comes only every few decades or so. In 2012 there is a common challenge to everyone, and the team and the driver who solve this task the best consistently will come out on top.

Additionally we have the rise of a potential new super star - Pastor Maldonado - who is to say Pastor is not going to be another Juan-Manuel Fangio or another Ayrton Senna? He voiced forth already some very original thoughts, that he first wants to "build the world championship" with Williams before going to another team. Many other drivers would simply use Williams as a jumping board to enter one of the big teams. So watch out, Pastor might be one of the greats of the sport.

We have 6 WDCs and an excellent Kimi. We witness again his quality, whereas some others, who have enjoyed the benefit of superior material in years bygone are struggling. What does it tell us?

Most important of all, in 2012 we see that among the drivers Fernando Alonso has dropped the ball the least, and amongst the teams the team from Enstone is really delivering a consistently super job.

We see the weakness in the McLaren organization - on more than one level - the weakness in Red Bull when Adrian Newey did not get the chance (= rule change) to deliver one of his super concepts, the weakness in Ferrari on the technical side. What does it tell us?

We see that a team reorganization like the one initiated by Adam Parr, using top people like Coughlan and Gillan in the process can turn the fortunes of an ailing team around mightily. What does it tell us? Which other teams might be in need of a team reorganization like the one that was courageously done at Williams?

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

None of the five wins so far were undeserved - Rosberg had it a long time coming, while Alonso, Vettel and Button showed their usual quality. Maldonado was mentioned already above and Raikkonen/Grosjean/Perez are probably still going to win this year - not undeservedly, IMHO.

Do not cry lottery!!! then, if and when Kimi and Sergio win, because their wins will be on merit as well. Do not use the lottery word at all - 2012 is just a reshuffle, that Dietrich Mateschitz of course does not like, but then: 2013 will present us with another reshuffle. One that might suit Adrian Newey again.

Another :up: from me

#177 Sakae

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 19:20

The whiners are the ones "not getting it". The field is closer than ever before, with everyone except FI, TR and new teams VERY close and able to race for the lead. Plus the top teams are making mistakes, i.e. Hamilton should have won in Spain. That´s what´s causing these results, not the tyres. In 2009 there was no Pirelli, and teams were up and down all the way too.

You obviously like Pepsi Cola, I like Coca Cola. Two different minds, two different sense, two different outlooks on what F1 racing in essence represents (or should represent). Why it would be then that it is you who is "getting it", and rest of us idiots do not?

Edited by Sakae, 20 May 2012 - 19:22.


#178 TheBunk

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 19:26

To me, 2012 is already a classic season - like 1982 and 1983 were. The racing is close and unpredictability is a quality that is there time and again in any sport, be it soccer, skiing, F1 or any other sport. It is cyclical, and it comes only every few decades or so. In 2012 there is a common challenge to everyone, and the team and the driver who solve this task the best consistently will come out on top.

Additionally we have the rise of a potential new super star - Pastor Maldonado - who is to say Pastor is not going to be another Juan-Manuel Fangio or another Ayrton Senna? He voiced forth already some very original thoughts, that he first wants to "build the world championship" with Williams before going to another team. Many other drivers would simply use Williams as a jumping board to enter one of the big teams. So watch out, Pastor might be one of the greats of the sport.

We have 6 WDCs and an excellent Kimi. We witness again his quality, whereas some others, who have enjoyed the benefit of superior material in years bygone are struggling. What does it tell us?

Most important of all, in 2012 we see that among the drivers Fernando Alonso has dropped the ball the least, and amongst the teams the team from Enstone is really delivering a consistently super job.

We see the weakness in the McLaren organization - on more than one level - the weakness in Red Bull when Adrian Newey did not get the chance (= rule change) to deliver one of his super concepts, the weakness in Ferrari on the technical side. What does it tell us?

We see that a team reorganization like the one initiated by Adam Parr, using top people like Coughlan and Gillan in the process can turn the fortunes of an ailing team around mightily. What does it tell us? Which other teams might be in need of a team reorganization like the one that was courageously done at Williams?

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

None of the five wins so far were undeserved - Rosberg had it a long time coming, while Alonso, Vettel and Button showed their usual quality. Maldonado was mentioned already above and Raikkonen/Grosjean/Perez are probably still going to win this year - not undeservedly, IMHO.

Do not cry lottery!!! then, if and when Kimi and Sergio win, because their wins will be on merit as well. Do not use the lottery word at all - 2012 is just a reshuffle, that Dietrich Mateschitz of course does not like, but then: 2013 will present us with another reshuffle. One that might suit Adrian Newey again.


Like :up:

#179 Sakae

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 19:33

It tells us that quality prevails, driver-wise and team-wise. It tells us that 2012 has taken away many competition impediments and has put drivers and teams under a brave test - who can deliver the best under given rules and challenging conditions like this years tires?

Well maybe so, but in reality no one can put his neck under guillotine to state with any degree of certainty that we have a level playing field because tires are all the same for everyone. Looking at time sheets, sensitivity to car setup under track ambient conditions, I am questioning whether this is really so, which leads me to next question, what the score sheet actually represents this year?

Edited by Sakae, 20 May 2012 - 19:36.


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#180 MrPodium

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 19:58

Well maybe so, but in reality no one can put his neck under guillotine to state with any degree of certainty that we have a level playing field because tires are all the same for everyone. Looking at time sheets, sensitivity to car setup under track ambient conditions, I am questioning whether this is really so, which leads me to next question, what the score sheet actually represents this year?


Ambient track temperature and who's car works their tyres best within that range.



#181 artista

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:03

Ambient track temperature and who's car works their tyres best within that range.

And the ambient track temperature and the car that works best within that range gives as a result 4 world champions driving 4 different cars in the first 4 positions of the score sheet?
Hmm, interesting.

#182 ivand911

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:14

And the ambient track temperature and the car that works best within that range gives as a result 4 world champions driving 4 different cars in the first 4 positions of the score sheet?
Hmm, interesting.

When this happen?
What is the difference between MotoGP, DTM, Indycar and F1? Difference is that they have real racing tyres. This is what I saw today. F1 is becoming laughing stock.
In the series I mentioned commentators were talking about racing, not about the tyres, quite refreshing. You switch to F1 and you hear only tyres,tyres,tyres.

Edited by ivand911, 20 May 2012 - 20:17.


#183 MrPodium

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:31

And the ambient track temperature and the car that works best within that range gives as a result 4 world champions driving 4 different cars in the first 4 positions of the score sheet?
Hmm, interesting.


Yes. It's not rocket science. Cars like Ferrari and Mercedes who are reknown for eating their tyres this season seem to have fared well when temperatures have been somewhat cooler than expected. That's why we hear so much talk of getting tyres "in the operating window" by team principals / drivers et al this season.



#184 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:37

On page 1 Sharo said - we have 6 WC on the grid and there's no direct fight between them - that can't be normal - and I wholeheartedly agree.
This is like fifth or sixth page with complaints to Pirelli, so something must be wrong - to me, it's pretty simple - racing has left room for entertainment.
There's gotta be a compromise? Again, I'm not asking for boring procession, just something that will allow the drivers to "push like hell".

#185 scheivlak

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:46

When this happen?
What is the difference between MotoGP, DTM, Indycar and F1? Difference is that they have real racing tyres. This is what I saw today. F1 is becoming laughing stock.
In the series I mentioned commentators were talking about racing, not about the tyres, quite refreshing. You switch to F1 and you hear only tyres,tyres,tyres.


It's funny how you blow things out of proportion :wave:

I heard an awful lot of talk about tyres both at the MotoGP and the DTM race today! Several drivers hitting the cliff at the end of the DTM race, Stoner losing to Rossi in the MotoGP race (and I won't say anything about the 2nd WTCC race today :lol: )

Why do you close your ears for that and let yourself be ruined by paying attention only to what people are saying about tyres during an F1 race while there is so much more happening there?



#186 Sakae

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 20:51

And the ambient track temperature and the car that works best within that range gives as a result 4 world champions driving 4 different cars in the first 4 positions of the score sheet?
Hmm, interesting.

You are manipulating statistics, but results are understandable if you look deeper under the skin. I have this pet theory of mine, that if you drive slowly enough around the track, ultimately that speed will suit to everyone, and make them all look equal, yet differences between them will shine at the edges of performance. You may now have realistically sixteen candidates for the podium. Where was that equality last year, I am not sure, but no doubt its different now.

(Is it Hamilton's turn next race)?

Edited by Sakae, 20 May 2012 - 20:52.


#187 fieraku

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 21:39

I'd like to see all of today's drivers to run a race in one of Fangio's cars with those "bicycle" tires. I'll bet none of them would ever again criticized modern tires.


Yes and I'd like all of today's humans live in a cave,make fire with sticks and wear animal's skin for clothes.I bet no one will ever complain about anything ever again.



#188 Aieljose

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 21:51

lol people want super durable tires, lots of passing and without aids like kers or drs. well sorry to give you bad news but that type of racing cannot exist with the current aero spec. The closest we had to that was in 2010 and it was follow the leader for 50+ laps. People complained, the rules were changed now we still have complaining...You can't have it both ways. If you need to critisise something direct it at the current aero regs which are the main reason we require these "gimmicks" to spice up the racing not at pirelli for basically doing as they've been told to do.

#189 fieraku

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 21:54

Before Pirelli tyres we had no racing.. we had races where you could count the amount of overtakes on one hand.


So cars endlessly passing each other is ''racing'' to you? I guess you must love highway overpasses,great seat to some great ''racing''.

#190 AlexS

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:54

QUOTE (byronbolscher @ May 18 2012, 16:54)
Before Pirelli tyres we had no racing.. we had races where you could count the amount of overtakes on one hand.


I would change that for: We had no driving, they were racing but the driver input was much less.

#191 moorsey

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 05:57

Agreed fbx, Paul Hembery doesn't get it at all.



No. These types of unpredictable races we've seen are not WORTH ruining on-the-limit racing, where drivers can battle each other for a longer period of time, back and forth (not just one pass!). I want to see man and machinery on the limit, especially man (I care a lot about the human factor in racing). If the cars are fast and hard to get absolute maximum out of, then we will start seeing driver mistakes, and we will see people who stand out. The human factor is where the unpredictability shall come from, not tyres which are engineered to be something.

Produce ground effect, mechanical-grip cars. Make the cars harder to drive. There you go, you have unpredictability from the human-factor, you have individuals who stand out from the rest. You have racers battling their own car to get max out of it, while battling others on the track at the same time. You have excitement and passion. You have brilliant human performances that are not about "oh my tyres held up when I cruised!", but raw speed and control.

I don't want to see slow-but-consistent-robots who jump into cars and grind their way to the finish (and press a button whenever they feel like passing), when they know they can actually go much faster. They should ALWAYS be as fast as they can, with concentration levels at a maximum.


The "excitement" we have now comes only from the performance of the cars and tyres. That doesn't excite me. What excite me is what a racer can do with his car - and that has been extremely limited by Pirelli, which I hate.

When someone won a race a few years ago, their joy was real and you could feel that they had really given their all during the race. Now you have them over radio saying "Good work team - the plan with making the tyres last worked." or something and that's it.


I am allergic to everything that is fake corporate bullshit, and it feels that F1 is just getting more and more of it. I don't want to see it being turned into something like Nascar.


Spot on.
Everyone keeps referring to Prost being able to look after his tyres, and he could indeed, but at least he was also able to race with the bloody things when he needed to. These current tyres mean that you have to look after them more than racing with them.

#192 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 06:05

Why not design it around brake disks or brake pads?

Why not ?

They have control brakes in the aussie v8 saloon series (the car is a cross between a btcc style car and a big fat nascar style car, it's quite heavy and has small tyres so brakes are obviously important).

What does this mean?

Normal way: Change the brake material to suit the track character, ambient temperature etc.

Spec item way: Apply automatic water cooling system when brakes are too hot, block off the brake ducts when they are too cool.

Un-necessarily complicated? Yes. Incomprehensible to typical race engineers? No.

#193 stevesingo

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:15

Some folks are just not getting the problem. The issue is not that the tyres last 10laps, 5laps or 20 laps, nor that when they do go off, they do so abruptly. The teams can work with this and that is something that can be planned for. Likewise, if one team uses the tyres harder than another, that team can go on an work on the issue. We have a constant reference for the engineers and drivers to work to.

The BIG ISSUE is the operating widow of the tyres is so narrow that changes in temperature can put the car in and out of the widow. No, engineer can change the weather, despite what they might think.

The evidence it there throughout the season so far and demonstrated by several teams.

Austalia: Relatively warm, Button in Australia was in the widow and many thought that the McLaren would dominate the season. The Mercedes were OK in qualifying, but were above the operating window in the race and were no where in the race.

Malaysia: Hamilton was over 1.5sec faster than Perez and Alonso in qualifying, but in the lower temps of a drying track late in the race, he couldn't match the pace of the Ferrari and Sauber. Hamilton was maybe below the window, but Alonso and Perez were right in the sweet spot.

China: Rosberg in the widow all weekend, probably as a result of the work done by Mercedes on the back of the overheating issues they had in Melbourn. The qualifying pace was reflected in the race due to no temperature changes during the weekend.

Bahrain: Again constant temps from quali to race and the quali order is maintained during the race more or less. But, we do see a shift in the status quo in the teams pecking order, due to it being the hottest race so far.

Jerez: A track which is hard on tyres, but the teams should have plenty of data for. But, as with all other changes of venue, we get another change in pecking order. This is slightly skewed by Hamilton's penalty, but he did not have the pace advantage in the race that he enjoyed in qualifying. Button probably demonstrated best how the narrow operating range of the tyres can screw up a teams weekend.


Widen the operating window of the tyres and we will take the lottery element away. God only knows how the lower teams get around this with their limited budgets. If they start the season with a car that can't use the tyres effectively, they will probably be stuck with it.





#194 MrPodium

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:20

Some folks are just not getting the problem. The issue is not that the tyres last 10laps, 5laps or 20 laps, nor that when they do go off, they do so abruptly. The teams can work with this and that is something that can be planned for. Likewise, if one team uses the tyres harder than another, that team can go on an work on the issue. We have a constant reference for the engineers and drivers to work to.

The BIG ISSUE is the operating widow of the tyres is so narrow that changes in temperature can put the car in and out of the widow. No, engineer can change the weather, despite what they might think.

The evidence it there throughout the season so far and demonstrated by several teams.

Austalia: Relatively warm, Button in Australia was in the widow and many thought that the McLaren would dominate the season. The Mercedes were OK in qualifying, but were above the operating window in the race and were no where in the race.

Malaysia: Hamilton was over 1.5sec faster than Perez and Alonso in qualifying, but in the lower temps of a drying track late in the race, he couldn't match the pace of the Ferrari and Sauber. Hamilton was maybe below the window, but Alonso and Perez were right in the sweet spot.

China: Rosberg in the widow all weekend, probably as a result of the work done by Mercedes on the back of the overheating issues they had in Melbourn. The qualifying pace was reflected in the race due to no temperature changes during the weekend.

Bahrain: Again constant temps from quali to race and the quali order is maintained during the race more or less. But, we do see a shift in the status quo in the teams pecking order, due to it being the hottest race so far.

Jerez: A track which is hard on tyres, but the teams should have plenty of data for. But, as with all other changes of venue, we get another change in pecking order. This is slightly skewed by Hamilton's penalty, but he did not have the pace advantage in the race that he enjoyed in qualifying. Button probably demonstrated best how the narrow operating range of the tyres can screw up a teams weekend.


Widen the operating window of the tyres and we will take the lottery element away. God only knows how the lower teams get around this with their limited budgets. If they start the season with a car that can't use the tyres effectively, they will probably be stuck with it.


Well said.

#195 ivand911

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:23

I heard an awful lot of talk about tyres both at the MotoGP and the DTM race today! Several drivers hitting the cliff at the end of the DTM race, Stoner losing to Rossi in the MotoGP race (and I won't say anything about the 2nd WTCC race today :lol: )

Why do you close your ears for that and let yourself be ruined by paying attention only to what people are saying about tyres during an F1 race while there is so much more happening there?

To hit the cliff in full race with one set of tyres is OK I think. But not if you drive 10-15 laps on them. And not in full speed. I personally didn't hear any driver interviews after the race. I was talking about commentators, they wasn't talking about tyres only.

I read now what Stoner said. And it have nothing to do with any cliff, it was more about wet tyre on drying track:

Then as soon as the rain stopped and the track was less wet, our tyre temperatures got too high, we started spinning and there wasn't anything I could do about it. I thought the three of them would catch up and perhaps overtake me but we managed to hold on for third.

http://www.motogp.co...ws le mans race
Read all driver quotes and tell me how many times they mentioned tyres?
When F1 driver will say this:
Rossi:

When I realized that I could really push hard and that it was possible to catch Stoner again, I went for it.


About DTM is the same. Who hit the cliff? How were they driving? IT is OK to hit the cliff when driving hard, but not when you tyre save.
Read here all quotes by Audi and Merc drivers, they didn't mentioned tyres even once:
http://www.dtm.com/e...Hatch-2012.html
No quotes by BMW drivers,sorry.

So, I don't think I closed my ears as you accuse me.

China: Rosberg in the widow all weekend, probably as a result of the work done by Mercedes on the back of the overheating issues they had in Melbourn. The qualifying pace was reflected in the race due to no temperature changes during the weekend.

I think it was just pure luck, also W03 was good in lower temperatures(so hitting the window) , also this is Nico best track, he is always good there. Also constant temperatures. But,nothing to do with any work done by Merc. They are so lost.

Edited by ivand911, 21 May 2012 - 07:34.


#196 dionisi

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:25

I like this season anyway. It is more interesting even when my favorite drivers are just fighting. Because they do fight in middle of 10, but not leading that horrible boring trains.
Lottery? Hey, it's not lottery, it is beautiful demonstration of team's ingeneers and their ability of finding best car configuration.

#197 ivand911

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:37

I like this season anyway. It is more interesting even when my favorite drivers are just fighting. Because they do fight in middle of 10, but not leading that horrible boring trains.
Lottery? Hey, it's not lottery, it is beautiful demonstration of team's ingeneers and their ability of finding best car configuration.

You mean like Kimi train in China? :p I don't care about engineers ability , I watch F1 for driver ability, that are nullified this season. They are just operators now.


#198 scheivlak

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:43

To hit the cliff in full race with one set of tyres is OK I think. But not if you drive 10-15 laps on them. And not in full speed. I personally didn't hear any driver interviews after the race. I was talking about commentators, they wasn't talking about tyres only.

I didn't hear any driver interview either, I just followed the ARD commentary and they talked quite a lot about tyres.

#199 dionisi

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 07:46

You mean like Kimi train in China? :p I don't care about engineers ability , I watch F1 for driver ability, that are nullified this season. They are just operators now.

Well, it was always a car-championship also.

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#200 ivand911

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:21

We clearly don't need this ****:
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