McLaren Honda MCL32 Part IV

"TakataDomeNSX", Alonso is outdriving the car..

Its amazing how some people don´t grasp the simple point behind this. This is figurative speaking, of course, its physically impossible for a driver to extract more out of the car, that´s like saying your legs can take you further than you foot. But the simple point is, how many drivers can extract what Alonso has out of this car today? Some would say the very top maybe, but it seems Alonso is the best of extracting the best out of flawed machines, his career shows he is the top on this regard. So when you have only one driver on the grid only who is capable of extracting this much out of the machine, is fair to make the point that the driver is flattering the car. Specially when his team mate is so far back. If you want to talk about what a car can realistically deliver, one would need to understand what the car is capable of giving in the average hands of a good driver, not an exceptional one, at exceptional circumstances. 

In any case is very flimsy, to think this change the things on a macro scale.That this Alonso performance would change the calculation going forward of either Mclaren or Alonso himself going forwards. Mclaren barely reaching q3 on the hands of an exceptional driver is no case for celebration, maybe some relief of temporary embarrassment. 

Edited by Flyhigh, 13 May 2017 - 19:03.

Its amazing how some people don´t grasp the simple point behind this. This is figurative speaking, of course, its physically impossible for a driver to extract more out of the car, that´s like saying your legs can take you further than you foot. But the simple point is, how many drivers can extract what Alonso has out of this car today? Some would say the very top maybe, but it seems Alonso is the best of extracting the best out of flawed machines, his career shows he is the top on this regard. So when you have only one driver on the grid only who is capable of extracting this much out of the machine, is fair to make the point that the driver is flattering the car. Specially when his team mate is so far back. If you want to talk about what a car can realistically deliver, one would need to understand what the car is capable of giving in the average hands of a good driver, not an exceptional one, at exceptional circumstances.

In any case is very flimsy, to think this change the things on a macro scale.That this Alonso performance would change the calculation going forward of either Mclaren or Alonso himself going forwards. Mclaren barely reaching q3 on the hands of an exceptional driver is no case for celebration, maybe some relief of temporary embarrassment.

Also, what has helped Mclaren is that Barcelona being a very tight track performance wise, who bring the cars closer together without many unknown spots due to so much testing, where one tenth here and there makes a difference of 3-4 positions. Alonso is very likely in fror a tough race tomorrow, with several drivers chasing him down all over and likely being able to pass him on the straights, so maybe there will be some fireworks on the radio tomorrow. 

Why were the Honda guys celebrating Alonso only just managing to escape Q2 like They got pole? Maybe it's a culture thing but that wouldn't make me any less angry about the situation, they only recovered to the level they were one year ago. The target for this year was to deliver a PU close enough that allows the team to fight for podiums. The gap to the top is still embarrassing, keep your heads down for now and save the celebrations for when you start troubling the 3rd best team - hopefully with the next combustion modification in the summer.

Yes it's typical Japanese culture thing to be happy when you make a step out of a hole

I doubt a measly 0.3% loss of max speed accounts for the lap time deficits people have been blaming it for.

 

323km/hour vs 312/km/hour is nothing.  Proof of what I am saying is the fact lewis had a decent gap over williams on pole and his top speed is halfway between williams and mclaren.

Not sure where you get 0.3% from. The speed difference through the trap was 2.7% to Merc and 4% to Ferrari. The overall lap time difference was 2.4%.

At the speeds they're doing through the trap and with the amount of drag these cars have a 10 kph difference is actually a lot of horse-power, like around 100 hp, assuming similar amounts of drag.

ALONSO!! Howly crap... not from this world.... 

Alonso in god, no... Senna mode...

ps: saw qualifying recorded 

Edited by Christophe77, 13 May 2017 - 19:38.

Did that lap come from a turned up engine and Alonso?

Better car, better engine, fantastic Alonso

The Mclarens are very poor on the speed trap and on the maximum speeds of each sector. I don't know if that is due to higher drag combined with poor power or just the latter. The car, itself, still lacks a bit of downforce when compared to Mercedes and Ferrari but maybe that's due to Mclaren having to take it easy with loading the car with downforce/drag

6kph slower on T9 and loses 0.06s throughtout the corner, which is not bad when you consider the car was nearly 2s behind the top. I guess most of that is coming from the straights. On the right hands, maybe it could be "just" like 1 to 1.2s slower than pole, at Monaco.

The Mclarens are very poor on the speed trap and on the maximum speeds of each sector. I don't know if that is due to higher drag combined with poor power or just the latter. The car, itself, still lacks a bit of downforce when compared to Mercedes and Ferrari but maybe that's due to Mclaren having to take it easy with loading the car with downforce/drag

 

6kph slower on T9 and loses 0.06s throughtout the corner, which is not bad when you consider the car was nearly 2s behind the top. I guess most of that is coming from the straights. On the right hands, maybe it could be "just" like 1 to 1.2s slower than pole, at Monaco.

You guess??? Come on, the PU is at least 100 HP down by all accounts

Makes you wonder where they'd be if pre-season testing went to plan. Ho-hum 

On the other hand, there's definitely potential to be unlocked.  There, I said it.

Come on Honda. Get a podium this season and everything will be forgiven.   

 

Come on Honda. Get a podium this season and everything will be forgiven.   

1 podium over 3 years is enough for forgiveness?

Huh, low standards.

Did that lap come from a turned up engine and Alonso?

Alonso reclaimed his stolen "0.6" Vandoorne nicked off him yesterday. Apparently the young Belgian tried to stuff it down the front of his pants, but Fernando wasn't having any of it.

Too bad Fernando will not be at Monaco for taking the fight to RBR

I read in this very same post that he´s just showing what the car is capable of.

So somebody else will do the same at Monaco, surely, not a big deal.

1 podium over 3 years is enough for forgiveness?

 

Huh, low standards.

I heard it was virtuous. Besides I'm British. We love an underdog.

Can anyone explain why Ferrari changes Vetel PU just before the qualifying and despite a small scare goes on to fight for pole no calibration or anything just full performance right away
while Honda on the other hand needed all FP2 to calibrate their new PU and never run in anger during that time

I think some people are jumbling up everything.

Majority of the drivers drivers out there were complaining about gusty conditions affecting car balance but Alonso said that the car gave him the confidence to push under the same gusty conditions.  Everyone knows i have repeatedly said that Alonso is the best of this generation but even he has not been able to bring this car to Q3 until Barcelona this year because  he can only go as fast as the package allows him to.Alonso is a best at extracting everything out of the car but he cannot do which the car will not allow him to do.  To use Vandoorne's poor performance as a benchmark to write the obituary of the car or engine or the package as a whole  is ridiculous in my opinion. Vettel has said the car is really good.

Just watch the onboard lap posted on this thread and you will see the car is driving  like it is on rails, responding  accurately to steering and braking inputs, there are no wild steering corrections, there are no lockups and there is excellent traction in S3. The engine also sounds much better than it has so far and the drivability appears to be good however the overall power deficit is still very big. Ricciardo who is as talented as they come but was lost in S3 while Verstappen was only 0.5 seconds from pole. Does that mean that Verstappen is flattering the car while Ricciardo's performance is Red Bull's actual benchmark? This whole cherry picking business trying to forward one's agenda is actually getting tiring.

You hire the best driver because he more often than not gives you true potential of the package. Teams hire drivers like Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel/Ricciardo/Verstappen because they give you the true potential of the car. So according to the yardstick applied by some Stroll's performances represent true potential of Williams and Massa is flattering the car.  Hulkenberg is flattering the car while Palmer represents the true potential of Renault is it?

All the 4 circuits before Barcelona  had very high power sensitivity. Barcelona has relatively lower power sensitivity and Mclaren's upgrades have shown results. Honda's drivability  has improved and performance has also improved albeit marginally. As Mika Hakkinen has said today in Ted's Notebook that this a massive fillip to the team because you simply cannot put in a good time in Barcelona without having a very well balanced car which is good in all types of corners. I rest my case.

Edited by Quickshifter, 13 May 2017 - 20:54.

AMuS:

About Canada upgrade:

Hasegawa says he cannot be sure the update won't be delayed until after Canada ."Obviously Canada will be the power circuit, so if we can prepare the new engine, we'd like to," Hasegawa said. "But still I'm not sure that we can."

About update introduced in Barcelona:

"Here the engine component is the same but there is an updated induction system and fuel system," Hasegawa added. "The upgrade is a quite decent level of upgrade, but [with] the current gap to the top teams, we cannot be proud too much."

https://www.motorspo...-canada-905512/

For what it's worth, I had a look at the speed figures across the S/F line and speed trap for each hot lap in quali, for us vs Sauber.

It's very similar to Australia. Here, the speeds at the S/F are pretty much identical but Sauber are a few kph faster by the speed trap (550m later). I suspect we have a bit more power and also more drag compared to Australia. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to measure drag. If we assume it's the same on both cars then Sauber probably still have 20-40 hp more than us.

So there was supposedly a brand new engine that would come after the first 6 races, that what was talked about in the winter testing in clear terms again and again "Brand new engine" coming soon. Now there is no such a thing, just a series of small updates, with the bigger updates taking longer and longer or not really coming at all. And people keep on reading interviews and clinging to what Honda says, they are just doing marketing exercises, that´s it. 

They knew they had to save face on the winter testing, so the brand new engine talking point thing came, and now is no, is not really like that, maybe later. Oh, ok. Can´t wait for the new Japanese interviews to be translated, so much truth to be discovered! 

Edited by Flyhigh, 13 May 2017 - 21:31.

Did that lap come from a turned up engine and Alonso?

Alonso was a bit lucky as "Born to be Wild" by Steppenwolf just happened to be playing over the team radio during the lap and as we know it's worth 5 m.p.h. on any straight.

For what it's worth, I had a look at the speed figures across the S/F line and speed trap for each hot lap in quali, for us vs Sauber.

 

It's very similar to Australia. Here, the speeds at the S/F are pretty much identical but Sauber are a few kph faster by the speed trap (550m later). I suspect we have a bit more power and also more drag compared to Australia. Unfortunately, there's no easy way to measure drag. If we assume it's the same on both cars then Sauber probably still have 20-40 hp more than us.

I doubt the deficit is between 20-40 hp, to little if you ask me. We barely beat the Saubers (this with Alonso behind the wheel) with a chassis that should by my estimate be no less than 1.5 seconds ahead considering the talent and resources involved. Should your figures be even remotely accurate would mean our chassis and star driver cannot even be considered average.

You guess??? Come on, the PU is at least 100 HP down by all accounts

Alonso suggests it's a bit more than 50 brake horsepower.

http://www.autosport...more-than-50bhp

Honda power the power of dreams!

Alonso suggests it's a bit more than 50 brake horsepower.

 

http://www.autosport...more-than-50bhp

That's not what he said.

He was asked if the coming upgrade which, it is speculated, should bring another 50 hp would be enough for him to challenge for poles and podiums, and he said no, he'd need more than that to be able to run at front.

He didn't say it in the sense that Honda is 50-and-a-change hp behind, but rather that a 50 hp step up from where they are now would not be enough to catch up.

Yes it's typical Japanese culture thing to be happy when you make a step out of a hole

It's the way they were expressing/celebrating, this was just a minor update, it didn't change the paradigm. It's a small step and every little helps but if I was still 100hp off my main target in the fifth race I would be embarrassed to be jumping for joy in the cameras just yet, also bearing in mind that at this time last year the PU was much better relative to the competition. It almost gives the impression that you have low expectations (and I know that Honda as a company has high expectations).

I'm one of the positive ones that genuinely think Honda will improve massively this season (and catching Renault by late season is still not off the cards) but it's still too early to celebrate. From a Honda fan

honda is 50 bhp down to the top  and more performance from the chassis, ithink mclaren could be in top 3 i think its a fair assesement, some biased media oulet like bbc andrew benson(another honda basher) was accusing honda lack 120bhp. he was consistenty bashing ,honda, he need to wake up,

Edited by ferrari2017, 13 May 2017 - 22:32.

honda is 50 bhp down to the top, said by alonso i think its a fair assesement, some biased media oulet like bbc andrew benson(another honda basher) was accusing honda lack 120bhp. he was consistenty bashing i will need to post this link to him to open his biased eyes.

Benson is a miserable man. 

It's the way they were expressing/celebrating, this was just a minor update, it didn't change the paradigm. It's a small step and every little helps but if I was still 100hp off my main target in the fifth race I would be embarrassed to be jumping for joy in the cameras just yet, also bearing in mind that at this time last year the PU was much better relative to the competition. It almost gives the impression that you have low expectations (and I know that Honda as a company has high expectations).

 

I'm one of the positive ones that genuinely think Honda will improve massively this season (and catching Renault by late season is still not off the cards) but it's still too early to celebrate. From a Honda fan

You must be fun to be around. Did you ever work your ass off for months and months on end and then had a little success? Were you all grumpy?

It's the way they were expressing/celebrating, this was just a minor update, it didn't change the paradigm. It's a small step and every little helps but if I was still 100hp off my main target in the fifth race I would be embarrassed to be jumping for joy in the cameras just yet, also bearing in mind that at this time last year the PU was much better relative to the competition. It almost gives the impression that you have low expectations (and I know that Honda as a company has high expectations).

 

I'm one of the positive ones that genuinely think Honda will improve massively this season (and catching Renault by late season is still not off the cards) but it's still too early to celebrate. From a Honda fan

I get what you are saying, but when you have been working your ass off and seeing little to no result that must beat you down. Let them smile, jump and pat each other on the back. If the engineers are feeling good then that is nothing but a positive. Who knows, maybe this small success validates something for them that allows for a greater gain. Nothing wrong with being happy about a step forward. 

It's the way they were expressing/celebrating, this was just a minor update, it didn't change the paradigm. It's a small step and every little helps but if I was still 100hp off my main target in the fifth race I would be embarrassed to be jumping for joy in the cameras just yet, also bearing in mind that at this time last year the PU was much better relative to the competition. It almost gives the impression that you have low expectations (and I know that Honda as a company has high expectations).

 

I'm one of the positive ones that genuinely think Honda will improve massively this season (and catching Renault by late season is still not off the cards) but it's still too early to celebrate. From a Honda fan

Only hours before they were staring at the McLaren dangling on a crane with oil gushing from yet another broken motor, I'd forgive them if they had the party poppers out 

Edited by Quickshifter, 13 May 2017 - 22:31.

Benson is a miserable man. 

Nah, just a biased reporter. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not like he is or ever will be held in high esteem by his colleagues.

Just watch the onboard lap posted on this thread and you will see the car is driving  like it is on rails, responding  accurately to steering and braking inputs, there are no wild steering corrections, there are no lockups and there is excellent traction in S3. The engine also sounds much better than it has so far and the drivability appears to be good however the overall power deficit is still very big. Ricciardo who is as talented as they come but was lost in S3 while Verstappen was only 0.5 seconds from pole. Does that mean that Verstappen is flattering the car while Ricciardo's performance is Red Bull's actual benchmark? This whole cherry picking business trying to forward one's agenda is actually getting tiring.

One thing I thought was interesting is that Fernando's laps were very consistent. It looks like there was a surprising amount of track evolution and for every single lap and every single sector, he went faster than his previous hot lap - with one exception, S2 in Q3 where he lost 0.009s compared to his best. I don't think anyone else was quite so consistent and he dealt with the conditions better.

All the 4 circuits before Barcelona  had very high power sensitivity. Barcelona has relatively lower power sensitivity and Mclaren's upgrades have shown results. Honda's drivability  has improved and performance has also improved albeit marginally. As Mika Hakkinen has said today in Ted's Notebook that this a massive fillip to the team because you simply cannot put in a good time in Barcelona without having a very well balanced car which is good in all types of corners. I rest my case.

Barcelona is definitely on the low end of power sensitivity. Maybe 4 lowest? Fernando was 0.3s from Q3 in Shanghai and given the different track characteristics I would have expected us to be closer to Q3 based on the track layout.

This means that the chassis/aero makes a bigger difference. It also means that the driver makes a bigger difference. It looks like we might have brought a better upgrade package than the teams we were up against. On the PU side, there were a bunch of separate upgrades but I suspect the biggest was solving/reducing the vibrations problem which in turn helped improve driveability. Improving the driveability would have also improved the tyre warm-up as well. However, we have struggled a bit in the past at Barcelona with balance and tyre warm-up issues so I wasn't that confident we would get to Q3 - I would have been happy with P11.

So to summarise: I think we have gained on the competition but not as much as the raw numbers indicate.

However, there's some things about the results here that I feel a bit confused about. I'm pretty sure we haven't gained that much in pure hp but the power gap feels smaller than I had expected, particularly when you consider the time gap in S3. Perhaps the team optimised the setup for S2 rather than S3? Even so, the pattern of relative performance wasn't what I was expecting.

So there was supposedly a brand new engine that would come after the first 6 races, that what was talked about in the winter testing in clear terms again and again "Brand new engine" coming soon. Now there is no such a thing, just a series of small updates, with the bigger updates taking longer and longer or not really coming at all. And people keep on reading interviews and clinging to what Honda says, they are just doing marketing exercises, that´s it. 

They knew they had to save face on the winter testing, so the brand new engine talking point thing came, and now is no, is not really like that, maybe later. Oh, ok. Can´t wait for the new Japanese interviews to be translated, so much truth to be discovered! 

Honda never promised when they will introduce the first big upgrade. Only that it would like to do so arround the time of monaco/canada or as soon as ready. They couldn't give an exact date because it was still under development.

You must be fun to be around. Did you ever work your ass off for months and months on end and then had a little success? Were you all grumpy?

Well, some people say I'm a weirdo sometimes but generally they enjoy being in my company .

Yes I get that. I would be feeling more encouraged in their situation but not show much emotion (unless a big step in performance just materialised). Maybe it's just me then.

I get what you are saying, but when you have been working your ass off and seeing little to no result that must beat you down. Let them smile, jump and pat each other on the back. If the engineers are feeling good then that is nothing but a positive. Who knows, maybe this small success validates something for them that allows for a greater gain. Nothing wrong with being happy about a step forward. 

fair.

The bold part, good point actually.

Can anyone explain why Ferrari changes Vetel PU just before the qualifying and despite a small scare goes on to fight for pole no calibration or anything just full performance right away
while Honda on the other hand needed all FP2 to calibrate their new PU and never run in anger during that time

Maybe...

The Ferrari PU was replaced with an identical one, but the Honda PU was replaced with a slightly different one.

It seems like we need to upgrade the swing-o-meter on this forum. Will the FIA allow us to change it as a reliability update, or will we have to spend tokens?

Huh? What? Hmm... maybe that was funnier in my head than it was out loud.

Anyway, glad to see the first decent performance of the year in qualifying from this team. The engine certainly isn't at a top tier level, but today it gave FA just enough to enable him to work his magic in qualifying. If the PU is at end-of-2016-plus-a-little-more levels, then the team is finally at the position I think they assumed they would be at coming out of preseason testing. FA will still go to Indy, but JB might be able to eke out some points in Monaco. I know the long-term goal is wins, but right now, I think that points would be a big morale boost for the team. 

In the meantime, I'm left with a question: what ails SV?

Edited by DerekWildstar, 14 May 2017 - 02:32.

something interesting from jp.motorsport.com

hasegawa's quotes:

The upgrade this week is aiming to increase power and torque in low rpm range.This power output suddenly turn down when the rpm is about 9000,so the torque is unstable when we shift up.I think this is the reason why there are some vibrations when we shift up this season.So i think we are much better with the upgrade.

目的は低速域のパワーとトルクを上げるためです。今年はシフトアップ時に振動が出ていたんですが、その理由はエンジンの回転数が9000回転ぐらいになると、急激に出力が落ちていたということがあったんです。そうすると、シフトアップするときにトルクの谷が大きかった。それを改善しようということでやってきましたが、それについては随分と良くなりました

 

You guess??? Come on, the PU is at least 100 HP down by all accounts

did you get it from that biased rumour spreading honda basher andrew benson he is known honda basher that exarggerate bhp figures .

its unfortunate because mclaren are running more drag and honda speeds are compared to 6 mercedes and 6renaults runners. and we can clearly see the speed between each mercedes runner and renault runner can vary up to 5km/h difference between each of them depending on the DF levels and drag. however people just get the fastest renault and mercedes from a pool of 6 cars to each engine manufacture and compare to only 2 honda runners. its unfair, let say there is a honda in much efficienty chassis like redbull then the speed difference will be much less. people forget that they are comparing the speeds to only 2 honda runners compared to 6 mercedes and renaults and 4 ferrraris engine runners

Edited by ferrari2017, 14 May 2017 - 04:15.

Time for some technical talk about the car from me as well so do try and keep up.  

The numbers look so much better filled in with white. 

That's all for now thanks for reading.

Here's an interesting head to head of Alonso's Spanish 2017 qualifying lap and Lewis's lap from last year. Not really relevant, but interesting just the same.

https://youtu.be/x00ZrN2UhHk

You are massively underestimating how much additional power it takes for each extra kph in a F1 car.

I posted a video which attempts to calculate the power difference based on the the speed differential. The conclusion is around 160hp to Mercedes.

https://youtu.be/o-BSAcQb8zQ

the video is interesting but very early on it starts flawed.

it compares the peak speed to the fastest merc which is williams instead of using a better number the average of all the merc teams.

Secondly he has no idea of what drag the williams vs the drag the mclaren has.

The mclaren supposedbly good in the corners may have a higher downforce setup which also increases drag.

That's not what he said.

 

He was asked if the coming upgrade which, it is speculated, should bring another 50 hp would be enough for him to challenge for poles and podiums, and he said no, he'd need more than that to be able to run at front.

 

He didn't say it in the sense that Honda is 50-and-a-change hp behind, but rather that a 50 hp step up from where they are now would not be enough to catch up.

 

This is the first time Alonso has reached Q3 in 2017, but he believes another major step is needed from Honda to have any chance of fighting at the front.

"I don't think that 50 is enough," said Alonso when asked after qualifying if an extra 50bhp would allow him to be on pole.

Read again.. I disputed Knuckles claim that the engine is 100 bhp down. IMO It's not 100 bhp down. If the difference would be that big Alonso would have said so. Knuckles number is pure speculation, while Alonso's judgment it's 50 something is IMO more trustworthy. Alonso was 1.89 seconds behind Lewis. If the chassis of Merc and McL were equal, would 1.89 seconds equal 100bhp deficit?

Edited by HP, 14 May 2017 - 05:30.