Not that long ago - in 1998 - Wim Eyckmans from Belgium had plans on a GP team, also in '98 there were stories about a Yugoslav GP team formed by a guy called Zoran Stefanovic. At the time, I recall they were rumoured to have picked up the assets of the Lola GP-teams including the cars.
Similar to the Phoenix saga this year.
Is anyone aware of the whereabouts of the Lola T97/30 cars ?
F1 entries that never made it
Started by
Megatron
, Jun 28 2001 14:43
506 replies to this topic
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#52
Doug Nye
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 19:42
Originally posted by rod
...Since Doug joined TNF he has mentioned H&L Motors and Guidobaldi. Any more?
Me? Well, Gleed-MG...run with that...
DCN
#53
Roger Clark
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:43
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Me? Well, Gleed-MG...run with that...
DCN
We had some discussion about the Gleed a while ago http://www.atlasf1.c...highlight=gleed without reaching any firm conclusions, I think.
#54
ensign14
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 21:44
Originally posted by Doug Nye
Me? Well, Gleed-MG...run with that...
DCN
Basically a Cooper F3 with an alleged turbo engine - built by Peter Gleed - allegedly entered for one or two races in 1958 but never appeared.
What about the Jocko Special? FJunior car, but allegedly the first in a series which would lead to F1, built by sometime NASCAR pilot Jocko Maggiacomo. Cor, I wish that had raced...
And weren't BS Fabrications planning to enter in c. 1987-8? I seem to remember Bob Sparshott saying he was planning an F1 car in Motoring News around then.
#55
Vitesse2
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Posted 06 April 2002 - 22:13
Mention of Bob Cowell in another thread revived memories of reading about the Aspin in early post-war Motor Sports. Bob Cowell and Gordon Watson were responsible for what appears to have been a con as far as I'm aware - among those who were taken in and sent in their 50 quid was a certain Stirling Crauford Moss.
Anyone know if anything appeared in the metal? The Edwards biography of Moss says not, but ....
And did anyone get their money back?
Ensign - we've discussed the BS a while back - try a BB search using Sparshott
Anyone know if anything appeared in the metal? The Edwards biography of Moss says not, but ....
And did anyone get their money back?
Ensign - we've discussed the BS a while back - try a BB search using Sparshott
#56
fines
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 00:34
I believe that was 1981, at the height of the FIASCO war...Originally posted by ensign14
And weren't BS Fabrications planning to enter in c. 1987-8? I seem to remember Bob Sparshott saying he was planning an F1 car in Motoring News around then.
#57
Vicuna
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 01:05
Although it was never entered - mainly because it was never finished - Howden Ganley built a car himself.
And I don't mean that he gave his name to someone else's design - not only was it his design, but he built himself. Well to the point where it still stands - about 80%.
And I don't mean that he gave his name to someone else's design - not only was it his design, but he built himself. Well to the point where it still stands - about 80%.
#58
ensign14
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 07:17
The Sparshott entry I'm thinking of was definitely later than 1981. It was some time after he won the F3000 Championship - it may have been under the name BS Automotive. I'm pretty certain it was in a Motoring News with pics of a Camel Lotus. But even the F3000 team folded soon after.
#59
AlesiUK
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 17:15
the life project was a total disaster in 1990,the original driver was gary brabham but he was replaced by bruno giacomelli.The car rarely ran for more than a lap or two and even when it did it was 3 or 4 seconds slower than anything else.It had a w12 engine in the back of it,which may or may not have been the guy negre design intened for the AGS team in 89.the season,
Any1 remember the Andrea Moda effert from a few years ago,the mechanics all wore designer sunglasses and leather jackets,Perry Mccarthy drove it but im not sure if they ever qualiyed for a race?
The man who was ment to drive the GLAS was none other than Giovanni Aloi with Mauro Baldi as a test driver
Any1 remember the Andrea Moda effert from a few years ago,the mechanics all wore designer sunglasses and leather jackets,Perry Mccarthy drove it but im not sure if they ever qualiyed for a race?
The man who was ment to drive the GLAS was none other than Giovanni Aloi with Mauro Baldi as a test driver
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#60
ensign14
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 18:16
Originally posted by AlesiUK
the life project was a total disaster in 1990,the original driver was gary brabham but he was replaced by bruno giacomelli.The car rarely ran for more than a lap or two and even when it did it was 3 or 4 seconds slower than anything else.It had a w12 engine in the back of it,which may or may not have been the guy negre design intened for the AGS team in 89.the season,
Any1 remember the Andrea Moda effert from a few years ago,the mechanics all wore designer sunglasses and leather jackets,Perry Mccarthy drove it but im not sure if they ever qualiyed for a race?
The man who was ment to drive the GLAS was none other than Giovanni Aloi with Mauro Baldi as a test driver
The Guy Negre designed MGN did test in an AGS, but as far as I know the Life engine was a so-called broad arrow, of Ernesto Vita's own design, but I have NO idea what a broad arrow is. The MGN turned up in the back of a Group C racer called the Norma at Le Mans in 1990 (a Noel del Bello project?) but the car never appeared to exit the pit lane.
Interesting about the Andrea Moda leather jackets - I seem to remember somewhere a journo commenting that the designer knitwear (!) of the Life team appeared to be more valuable than the car! AM sponsored a Champcar with some minor success a little later (Euromotorsports? Christian Danner?).
#61
AlesiUK
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 19:15
with life the car was built to showcase the engine,the team was actually entered as "Life Racing Engines",the idea was that one of the big teams would be impressed and buy the engine.
It would appear that Andrea Moda did infact race,at monaco in 1992 roberto moreno somehow got onto the grid only to retire after about 10laps.
I also remember they missed the french gp that year because they were the only team to fail to find a way round the lorry drivers strike.
The car i seem to recall was designed by none other than Nick Wirth,who went onto benneton a few years later.
It would appear that Andrea Moda did infact race,at monaco in 1992 roberto moreno somehow got onto the grid only to retire after about 10laps.
I also remember they missed the french gp that year because they were the only team to fail to find a way round the lorry drivers strike.
The car i seem to recall was designed by none other than Nick Wirth,who went onto benneton a few years later.
#62
rod
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 20:14
Although it was never entered - mainly because it was never finished - Howden Ganley built a car himself.
Never heard of that. Can you elaborate please.
And I don't mean that he gave his name to someone else's design - not only was it his design, but he built himself. Well to the point where it still stands - about 80%
It sound as if you are saying that the 80% completed car still exists somewhere. Where?
#63
fines
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 21:06
The Life Engine had nothing to do with Moteurs Guy Negré, and the Life Car was, of course, not built to showcase the engine, it was built by FIRST Racing to run in the 1989 season with a Judd CV. The engine's design was described either as a "W12" or an "arrow", because the arrangement of its cylinder banks resembled a downwards pointing arrow.
#64
Vitesse2
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Posted 07 April 2002 - 21:21
I presume you're referring to the stillborn Tiga F1 car Vicuna?
Ganley was the GA in Tiga, the TI was Tim Schenken. They had bought the MRE business and renamed it and allowed themselves what David Hodges called "the distraction of an F1 project in 1978. This came close to realization - major components such as chassis and suspension were gathered together but never actually assembled".
Ganley was the GA in Tiga, the TI was Tim Schenken. They had bought the MRE business and renamed it and allowed themselves what David Hodges called "the distraction of an F1 project in 1978. This came close to realization - major components such as chassis and suspension were gathered together but never actually assembled".
#65
Vicuna
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 08:58
Howden still has the car and threatens to finish it off some day.
Who knows what it might have called but it was his design and his sweat that put it together.
The Trebron venture always intrigued me because Norbert was so modest. Not.
He claimed to have designed the first monocoque, the first side radiatored car, the first 'wing car' etc etc
Except no one had ever seen any of the cars or the designs!
Wasn't there some Czech or Yugoslav proposing a car called the 'Stefan' - his first name - only a decade or so ago?
Who knows what it might have called but it was his design and his sweat that put it together.
The Trebron venture always intrigued me because Norbert was so modest. Not.
He claimed to have designed the first monocoque, the first side radiatored car, the first 'wing car' etc etc
Except no one had ever seen any of the cars or the designs!
Wasn't there some Czech or Yugoslav proposing a car called the 'Stefan' - his first name - only a decade or so ago?
#66
rod
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 12:40
Time, I link, for a list, of the state of play, as I understand it. I've confined the list to post-war (F1) cars which never made it to a race at all (i.e. excluding relative "success stories" like Andrea Moda and Life. Also excluded aborted projects by constructors whose other cars did appear in F1).
I've split the list into three parts - the "well documented" section should be pretty familliar to most TNFers, the "little known" (i.e. little known to me) section is cars which almost certainly existed (to some extent) and I am fairly familiar with the skeleton stories, but in most cases lacking a picture or many details. Section three could be endless, if we include everyone who has ever said "I might build a GP car one day", but these are the persistent rumours and the ones which have been mentioned in TNF and therefore presumably elsewhere. I know nothing whatever about any of these.
Anyone who is bemoaning the demise of the 8W quiz, and fancies doing a who/what/when/where/why story on any of these, please feel free!
1: Well documented (including pics):
Alpine 3ltr - Tout L'histoire
Alpine turbo - Tout L'histoire, Bellu
Berta - 8W
Cosworth - Donington collection
DAMS - own website, Lawrence
Dome - own website
Ekström - Rainer Nyberg
First
Gleed MG - Lawrence
Pearce Martin/Ferrari - TNF, Hodges
Reynard - Lawrence, TNF
Sacha Gordine
Sigma Ferrari
Walker Climax
2: Little known:
Abarth - TNF, Hodges
Asiatec - Readers Comments
Ausper - Lawrence
BMW (Simtek proj)
Bravo (Simtek proj)
Bristol
Elfin - TNF
Glas
Lancia Nardi - Lawrence (with pic of chassis)
Laystall - Hodges (pic)
Lister - (pic)
Parnell
Phoenix - Readers Comments
Portugese project - Auto Hebdo, TNF
Sadler - TNF
Serenissima
Tiga
VM - Lawrence
Woden Bristol
3: Nothing known:
Audi - TNF (Motoring News?)
BS Fabs - Hodges, TNF
Dhainault
Durango
GRD
Guidobaldi - Doug Nye (TNF)
H&L Motors - Doug Nye (TNF)
Hawke - Hodges, Lawrence
Il Barone Rampante
Ikuzawa
Jocko Climax
Konrad
Lion - Doug Nye (TNF)
Maurer
McNally
Mono JK
Stefan
Toutou - TNF
Trebron Judd (pic in Autosport, according to TNF)
Willys Gavea
Wim Eyckmans (1998) - TNF (Rainer)
(I've given some refs. Appologies to anyone whose work I have simply credited to 'TNF')
I've split the list into three parts - the "well documented" section should be pretty familliar to most TNFers, the "little known" (i.e. little known to me) section is cars which almost certainly existed (to some extent) and I am fairly familiar with the skeleton stories, but in most cases lacking a picture or many details. Section three could be endless, if we include everyone who has ever said "I might build a GP car one day", but these are the persistent rumours and the ones which have been mentioned in TNF and therefore presumably elsewhere. I know nothing whatever about any of these.
Anyone who is bemoaning the demise of the 8W quiz, and fancies doing a who/what/when/where/why story on any of these, please feel free!
1: Well documented (including pics):
Alpine 3ltr - Tout L'histoire
Alpine turbo - Tout L'histoire, Bellu
Berta - 8W
Cosworth - Donington collection
DAMS - own website, Lawrence
Dome - own website
Ekström - Rainer Nyberg
First
Gleed MG - Lawrence
Pearce Martin/Ferrari - TNF, Hodges
Reynard - Lawrence, TNF
Sacha Gordine
Sigma Ferrari
Walker Climax
2: Little known:
Abarth - TNF, Hodges
Asiatec - Readers Comments
Ausper - Lawrence
BMW (Simtek proj)
Bravo (Simtek proj)
Bristol
Elfin - TNF
Glas
Lancia Nardi - Lawrence (with pic of chassis)
Laystall - Hodges (pic)
Lister - (pic)
Parnell
Phoenix - Readers Comments
Portugese project - Auto Hebdo, TNF
Sadler - TNF
Serenissima
Tiga
VM - Lawrence
Woden Bristol
3: Nothing known:
Audi - TNF (Motoring News?)
BS Fabs - Hodges, TNF
Dhainault
Durango
GRD
Guidobaldi - Doug Nye (TNF)
H&L Motors - Doug Nye (TNF)
Hawke - Hodges, Lawrence
Il Barone Rampante
Ikuzawa
Jocko Climax
Konrad
Lion - Doug Nye (TNF)
Maurer
McNally
Mono JK
Stefan
Toutou - TNF
Trebron Judd (pic in Autosport, according to TNF)
Willys Gavea
Wim Eyckmans (1998) - TNF (Rainer)
(I've given some refs. Appologies to anyone whose work I have simply credited to 'TNF')
#67
fines
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 15:46
Add to that from Germany:
MSM-Lancia (well documented in Reinald Schumann's "Motorsport in Deutschland")
Egon Ewertz (have to dig for that, but I believe one German mag (rally racing?) ran quite a few stories at the time)
MSM-Lancia (well documented in Reinald Schumann's "Motorsport in Deutschland")
Egon Ewertz (have to dig for that, but I believe one German mag (rally racing?) ran quite a few stories at the time)
#68
Allen Brown
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 18:15
rod - could you give me the full reference to this please.Originally posted by rod
Anyone who is bemoaning the demise of the 8W quiz, and fancies doing a who/what/when/where/why story on any of these, please feel free!
1: Well documented (including pics) :
Alpine 3ltr - Tout L'histoire
I have information on these nine at home. I'll post something later.Originally posted by rod
2: Little known:
Abarth - TNF, Hodges
Parnell
Serenissima
Tiga
3: Nothing known:
BS Fabs - Hodges, TNF
GRD
Hawke - Hodges, Lawrence
McNally
Toutou - TNF
Allen
#69
Frank de Jong
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 18:50
The 1968 F1 Alpine is also referred to in Competition car, August 1974.
"Along the way, there have been some interesting one-off experiments. Jean-Claude Andruet ran a turbocharged F3 car, reputed to give 210 bhp, in a series of hillclimbs in 1972. It was very difficult to drive, and the project was quietly scrapped. So, too, was the 1968 Formula 1 Alpine. Bulow built it out of curiosity, to develop an intriguing suspension system designed to eliminate camber change. It was amazingly complicated, very heavy and its 3-litre Gordini engine left it with a considerable power disadvantage. De Cortanze drove it on 3 occasions - at Zolder, Zandvoort and Bugatti: "It was very strange. It had good traction, but was very difficult to drive in fast corners. At Zolder the car was quite good, but at Zandvoort and Bugatti it was terrible.""
No picture, by the way.
"Along the way, there have been some interesting one-off experiments. Jean-Claude Andruet ran a turbocharged F3 car, reputed to give 210 bhp, in a series of hillclimbs in 1972. It was very difficult to drive, and the project was quietly scrapped. So, too, was the 1968 Formula 1 Alpine. Bulow built it out of curiosity, to develop an intriguing suspension system designed to eliminate camber change. It was amazingly complicated, very heavy and its 3-litre Gordini engine left it with a considerable power disadvantage. De Cortanze drove it on 3 occasions - at Zolder, Zandvoort and Bugatti: "It was very strange. It had good traction, but was very difficult to drive in fast corners. At Zolder the car was quite good, but at Zandvoort and Bugatti it was terrible.""
No picture, by the way.
#70
Allen Brown
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 19:24
SECTION 3: NOTHING HEARD
BS Fabrications
Towards the end of August 1978, BS Fabrications announced that Nelson Piquet would be staying with them for 1979 to drive a new David Polland-designed F1 car. See Autosport 31 Aug 1978 p2.
GRD
Various references: GRD enter car in Rothmans £50,000 in August 1972; not a works entry but could build one for customer (Autosport 11 Nov 1971 p2); GRD have a F1 project (Autosport 6 Jul 1972 p2); GRD had their eye on F1 from the start ... GRD building F1 (Autosport 1 Nov 1973 p3) but denied on page 5! - just for test!! F5000 car will be F1 (Autosport 4 Jul 1974 p7). Bonomi buys GRD F1 car (Autosport 12 Sep 1974 p5).
Hawke
Hawke abandoned their F1 project in October 1976, prompting Reynard to leave for Sabre. See Autosport (somewhere between 30/9 and 28/10 1976).
McNally
The initial report of project was in October 1972, with a further report a year later stating that the car would use a Hesketh V12 engine. By early 1975, Hesketh had lost interest in the engine, leaving McNally holding the baby. Two nearly-complete units were advertised in March of that year. See Autosport 12 Oct 1972 p2, 20 Sep 1973, 6 Mar 1975 p7.
Toutou
Only one reference to the Toutou was ever made, in Autosport on 5 December 1974. It said only that a rumour had been heard...
Allen
BS Fabrications
Towards the end of August 1978, BS Fabrications announced that Nelson Piquet would be staying with them for 1979 to drive a new David Polland-designed F1 car. See Autosport 31 Aug 1978 p2.
GRD
Various references: GRD enter car in Rothmans £50,000 in August 1972; not a works entry but could build one for customer (Autosport 11 Nov 1971 p2); GRD have a F1 project (Autosport 6 Jul 1972 p2); GRD had their eye on F1 from the start ... GRD building F1 (Autosport 1 Nov 1973 p3) but denied on page 5! - just for test!! F5000 car will be F1 (Autosport 4 Jul 1974 p7). Bonomi buys GRD F1 car (Autosport 12 Sep 1974 p5).
Hawke
Hawke abandoned their F1 project in October 1976, prompting Reynard to leave for Sabre. See Autosport (somewhere between 30/9 and 28/10 1976).
McNally
The initial report of project was in October 1972, with a further report a year later stating that the car would use a Hesketh V12 engine. By early 1975, Hesketh had lost interest in the engine, leaving McNally holding the baby. Two nearly-complete units were advertised in March of that year. See Autosport 12 Oct 1972 p2, 20 Sep 1973, 6 Mar 1975 p7.
Toutou
Only one reference to the Toutou was ever made, in Autosport on 5 December 1974. It said only that a rumour had been heard...
Allen
#71
No27
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 19:26
Maurer was/is a German Formula 3 or 2 team that had plans to join F1 somewhere in the early eigthies.
#72
Vitesse2
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Posted 08 April 2002 - 23:39
Originally posted by Allen Brown
Barry, Rod, Vitesse2
Don't worry - I haven't forgotten about the Toutou. I promise I will transcribe every single word that has ever been written on the subject.
Allen
Originally posted by Allen Brown
Only one reference to the Toutou was ever made, in Autosport on 5 December 1974. It said only that a rumour had been heard...
And we waited nine months to find that out ....
#73
The Tiger
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 00:26
Originally posted by FEV
GLAS was as I remember it, ment to be a Mexican National F1
Team. So maybe Carlos Jalife can tell us more about it. Didn't the
guy who brought all the money ran away with it and was never
found ? (maybe he's EZLN's Marcos
was supposed to be Fernando Plata who had a decent F3000
experience.
As for the Mexican Team goes, it was indeed a national team and was called as I recall "Escuderia Mexico". The driver was set to be Giovanni Aloi. The story is quite odd because first of all, Giovanni had wanted for the most part of his life to be a bullfighter, but his father never let him, and instead insisted on him racing cars. He funded all his racing carreer and ended up lining him up with what was supposed to be the Mexican F1 team. Giovanni's father was one of the key people funding the project, which by the time the accountant ran of with the money, had gathered somewhere around 3 million dollars (about a penny’s worth when talking about F1).
I will gather more info. and write it as soon as I get it.
#74
rod
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 09:13
Alpine
Of course I meant Toute L'Histoire - a silly mistake compounded by copy & paste.
Tout L'Histoire #30 Alpine - Dominic Pascal (1984)
ISBN 2-85120-201-4
Editions Presse Audiovisuel
83 Rue de Rennes
75006 Paris
TNFers more affluent than myself might have:
Alpine, Berlinettes, A310, Prototypes, Monoplaces
(same author, publisher)
The small Toute L'Histoire book doesn't add anything we don't already know - I only put it as a ref because it includes a picture. The Zandvoort tests are described as 'brillants essais secrets" - is this some strange usage of the word "brillants" with which I am unfamilliar?
Hawke
Mike Lawrence's Reynard book says a one-third scale model was built - no pic.
MSM-Lancia
Egon Ewertz
Fines, can you elaborate please?
BS Fabs
Why have we got so many different dates?
1978/9 (Allen Brown/Autosport)
1981 (Hodges - "monocoque complete")
1987/8 (Ensign/Motoring News)
Aspin
Could you elaborate on this 'con', Vitesse? Or has it been discussed already?
Jocko
Anyone got a pic of the FJ car?
Toutou
Well worth waiting for. Anyone know how to change the title of this thread to 'The Toutou Supporters Club' ?
Of course I meant Toute L'Histoire - a silly mistake compounded by copy & paste.
Tout L'Histoire #30 Alpine - Dominic Pascal (1984)
ISBN 2-85120-201-4
Editions Presse Audiovisuel
83 Rue de Rennes
75006 Paris
TNFers more affluent than myself might have:
Alpine, Berlinettes, A310, Prototypes, Monoplaces
(same author, publisher)
The small Toute L'Histoire book doesn't add anything we don't already know - I only put it as a ref because it includes a picture. The Zandvoort tests are described as 'brillants essais secrets" - is this some strange usage of the word "brillants" with which I am unfamilliar?
Hawke
Mike Lawrence's Reynard book says a one-third scale model was built - no pic.
MSM-Lancia
Egon Ewertz
Fines, can you elaborate please?
BS Fabs
Why have we got so many different dates?
1978/9 (Allen Brown/Autosport)
1981 (Hodges - "monocoque complete")
1987/8 (Ensign/Motoring News)
Aspin
Could you elaborate on this 'con', Vitesse? Or has it been discussed already?
Jocko
Anyone got a pic of the FJ car?
Toutou
Well worth waiting for. Anyone know how to change the title of this thread to 'The Toutou Supporters Club' ?
#75
AlesiUK
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 10:12
On the GLAS thing,the car was designed by a guy called Mauro Forghieri,but was actually built by Lamborghini.
The accountant in question was Fernando Gonzalez Luna,he went missing along with his brother about 4 days before the car was due to launch.Strangely $20million went missing along with them
im not really sure if this team is eligible for this category,Even after the collapse of the GLAS part of the team,Lamborghini used the chassis and engine for its own team(modena/Lamborghini) the following year
From what "the tiger" says,it would appear likely that Aloi the racing driver did indeed become Aloi the bullfighter!
The accountant in question was Fernando Gonzalez Luna,he went missing along with his brother about 4 days before the car was due to launch.Strangely $20million went missing along with them
im not really sure if this team is eligible for this category,Even after the collapse of the GLAS part of the team,Lamborghini used the chassis and engine for its own team(modena/Lamborghini) the following year
From what "the tiger" says,it would appear likely that Aloi the racing driver did indeed become Aloi the bullfighter!
#76
Vitesse2
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 10:51
Here's the relevant passage from the Robert Edwards Moss biography, page 42. I read several references to the car in late-40s copies of Motor Sport when I was at Beaulieu last year, but didn't copy them, I'm afraid, as I was looking for something else at the time. Re-reading Edwards, it appears the name Aspin actually refers to the engine and a BB Search brings up some stuff in the Tech Forum, which seems relevant.
Now that he [Moss] was a proper motorist, he could scan the pages of Motor Sport magazine with a different perspective, particularly with his savings burning a hole in his pocket. The advertisement he saw there was tempting: a new car was being developed. It was to be powered by a revolutionary new engine with rotary valves, known as the Aspin. The Aspin was something of a hot issue in the enthusiasts' press, which Stirling read avidly. It promised much, though this writer's researches have failed to discover a single example in the metal. The car was the product of the Cowell-Watson Partnership and it must be said was a somewhat speculative venture. All the happy punter had to do was send £50 as a 10 per cent deposit and be patient, which is what Stirling did.
It may be that Stirling's deposit was actually returned, since Pa Moss found out about this and rang up Cowell-Watson to demand his money on the grounds that Stirling was still a minor and the contract was therefore null and void - Edwards doesn't make clear what the outcome actually was.
Now that he [Moss] was a proper motorist, he could scan the pages of Motor Sport magazine with a different perspective, particularly with his savings burning a hole in his pocket. The advertisement he saw there was tempting: a new car was being developed. It was to be powered by a revolutionary new engine with rotary valves, known as the Aspin. The Aspin was something of a hot issue in the enthusiasts' press, which Stirling read avidly. It promised much, though this writer's researches have failed to discover a single example in the metal. The car was the product of the Cowell-Watson Partnership and it must be said was a somewhat speculative venture. All the happy punter had to do was send £50 as a 10 per cent deposit and be patient, which is what Stirling did.
It may be that Stirling's deposit was actually returned, since Pa Moss found out about this and rang up Cowell-Watson to demand his money on the grounds that Stirling was still a minor and the contract was therefore null and void - Edwards doesn't make clear what the outcome actually was.
#77
tombe
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 21:52
Willys-Overland do Brazil in Sào Paulo produced in 1965 (or early '66) a single-seater called Willys-Gavea Monoposto. The intention was that the same chassis should be used with different engines for F1, F2 and F3.
The car ran, at least, in the Temporada in F3 trim with an Renault engine and Wilson Fittipaldi at the wheel.
This info is taken from the Swedish mag 'Illustrerad Motor Sport' April '66.
It's accompanied by a small picture which I can scan and post here if there's interest.
The car ran, at least, in the Temporada in F3 trim with an Renault engine and Wilson Fittipaldi at the wheel.
This info is taken from the Swedish mag 'Illustrerad Motor Sport' April '66.
It's accompanied by a small picture which I can scan and post here if there's interest.
#78
Doug Nye
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Posted 09 April 2002 - 22:23
Originally posted by biercemountain
I found a picture of the Cosworth 4WD in a book I have...Apparently it was a complete pig to drive, with heavy steering and wild wheelspin.
Distributing the not unlimited torque of a Cosworth DFV engine through all four wheels as opposed to just the rear pair was never conducive to promoting 'wild wheelspin'...
Two quotes perhaps best describe the performance inadequacies of the 1969 crop of 4WD F1 cars:
Bruce McLaren on steering reaction when a worthwhile front/rear torque-split was dialled-in to proportion more drive to the front wheels: "It's like trying to sign your name with sombody jogging your elbow...".
Tony Rudd - who had explored 4WD F1 with the BRM P67 in 1964 - "Would you try running your car with a hundredweight sack of cement tied to it? Would you try running your car with the engine de-tuned by 25 per cent? Would you try running your car with the steering part-seized? No? - well don't, 'cos that's what it's like when you fit a 4-wheel drive system...".
Because it was 'only' BRM who had done the pioneering work and had worked out that a 4WD car lapped fastest with zero drive going through the front wheels to interfere with the driver's 'feel', Tony's wise counsel was ignored. And it cost McLaren, Lotus, Matra and Cosworth alike a fortune.
DCN
#79
rod
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 11:27
[b]Willys-Gavea[b]
Tombe - I would appreciate it if you could post the scanned photo, if only to dispell the image I have in my mind of a F3 Jeep!
[b]Gleed-MG[b]
Doug - Nobody rose to your bait on this, possibly because, as Roger said, its been discussed before (largely quoting from yourself and Mike Lawrence). But I would imagine that you know more? Was the engine size merely coincidental, or was this is serious F1 attempt? Did it ever run at all? What happened to it?
Tombe - I would appreciate it if you could post the scanned photo, if only to dispell the image I have in my mind of a F3 Jeep!
[b]Gleed-MG[b]
Doug - Nobody rose to your bait on this, possibly because, as Roger said, its been discussed before (largely quoting from yourself and Mike Lawrence). But I would imagine that you know more? Was the engine size merely coincidental, or was this is serious F1 attempt? Did it ever run at all? What happened to it?
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#80
Flying Panda
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 11:45
No exatly true.Originally posted by Ali_G
Lola in 97 ?
Pulled out after both cars failed to qualify. Lack of sponsorship money i think.
Niall
They didnt pull both cars out in AUstralia. The FIA would not let tham start because they were past the 107% mark.
The team announced the decision to skip the Brazillian and Argentine GP's and they would re-join the series in Europe after a lot of time in the wind tunnell and test track.
Only hours after they announced their absence from the South American Grands Prix, they announced their abandoning of the whole Formula One operation due to the massive debt.
#82
Catalina Park
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 13:04
Thanks Leo, great article.
I think it would have stopped well with both inboard and outboard discs, I am not sure if the rear wing would have got much air with the shape of the bodywork and the front wing would have made a good snowplough.
I think it would have stopped well with both inboard and outboard discs, I am not sure if the rear wing would have got much air with the shape of the bodywork and the front wing would have made a good snowplough.
#83
fines
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 15:54
Oh dear, I really don't have the time to do that right now. Suffice to say the MSM (for Mauritz von Strachwitz, München iirc) was built in 1953 with a Lancia Aurelia (?) engine to F2 rules, so maybe it's a bit outside the scope of this thread, but seeing as the Nardi-Lancia is included as well, so you decide! It was, apparently, entered both at the AVUS and the German GP, but failed to appear due to von Strachwitz losing his driving licence (!)Originally posted by rod
MSM-Lancia
Egon Ewertz
Fines, can you elaborate please?
over a traffic accident! Still, it was tested at the 'Ring prior to the German GP, and there are pictures to prove its existence. My only source for this is Reinald Schumann's book, and as I know some others here at TNF have that as well, maybe someone can jump in here?About Ewertz, I know very little ottomh, I would have to go through several magazines to find out even the basic facts, so unfortunately this is a no-go.
#84
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 18:13
Stefan GP, was the team I mentioned earlier in the thread.
AFAIK they aquired or tried to aquire the Mastercard Lola T97/30 cars, but I have no confirmation.
It was mentioned in Autosport.
Egon Ewertz did or tried to build a 2-stroke Formula One engine, but I don´t know if he planned to build his own car as well.
Anyway FIA banned two-stroke F1 engines so the project faded away.
But it would be interesting to know how far it proceeded.
AFAIK they aquired or tried to aquire the Mastercard Lola T97/30 cars, but I have no confirmation.
It was mentioned in Autosport.
Egon Ewertz did or tried to build a 2-stroke Formula One engine, but I don´t know if he planned to build his own car as well.
Anyway FIA banned two-stroke F1 engines so the project faded away.
But it would be interesting to know how far it proceeded.
#85
Frank de Jong
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 19:04
I think we talk about Egon Evertz here, the succesful German hillclimber with his Porsche Carrera RSR. IIRC he entered the Group 5 world championship in 1976 with a Porsche 934/5. I got the idea that he tried to join the game of Kremer and Loos, but on a limited budget. I don't recall an F1 adventure, but since he got a lot of press in those days (in Germany), it may be the same man allright.
Evertz has a website: The Evertz Group but his racing history is not covered there.
Evertz has a website: The Evertz Group but his racing history is not covered there.
#86
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 19:22
I am maybe mistaken by this name, but it somehow sounded familiar, maybe a similar name?
Anyone else who recalls a German two-stroke F1 project back in the late 1970s?
Anyone else who recalls a German two-stroke F1 project back in the late 1970s?
#87
Rainer Nyberg
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Posted 10 April 2002 - 19:33
I looked up an old article on the Swedish F2 engine based on Husqvarna motorcycle engines.
Egon Everts was mentioned there in connection with the 2-stroke engines.
Some background and data :
5 cyl-inline (5 x one-cylinder 384cc Husqvarna motorcycle engines.)
1920cc
5 Mikuni 38mm carburettors
Engine power > 300bhp.
Conceived by Swedish Porsche tuner Bo Strandell and Lars Nilsson. So at the time it speculated that his F2 engine project would be a Porsche based engine. So everyone was surprised when they unveiled their straight 5-cyl 2-stroke engine comprising of 5 Husqvarna motorcycle engines.
They optimistically claimed the following pros :
Small physical size engine making it advantageous for the aerodynamics.
Low weight (Up to 40% lighter than current units in 1981.)
Theoretically a higher power output
The con was :
Higher fuel comsumption than a 4-stroke engine
Anders Olofsson used the engine in a ex-Divina Galica March 792 in a few events in 1981 before the project was shelved. Vanvall had used this practise in the 50s when they coupled four Norton Manx motorcycle engines together, but their engine was a 4-stroke unit. German Egon Everts was trying to develop an two-stroke engine in the late 1970s intended for Formula 1. The rule-makers quickly deleted that option by banning two-stroke engines for Formula 1. Apart from the various Saab´s and DKW´s in rallying and circuit racing during the 50s and 60s a few had used two-stroke engines in singleseater racing. The most notable was german Gerhard Mitter who raced a 3-cylinder Auto-Union two-stroke engine in his Lotus 18 in the early 1960s. He was also trying to develop a 4cylinder version intended for a F2 Lotus 22 when he was killed. Among others Heinz Melkus also raced three-cylinder Wartburg powered singleseaters in East Germany during the same period. In 1985 Bo Strandell conceived his own Group C2 car with power from a Porsche 934 engine. It was raced unsuccessfully during 1985-86. Some 10 years later Bo Strandell was involved in GT racing. With Anders Olofsson once again driving for him in a Strandell run Ferrari F40.
Egon Everts was mentioned there in connection with the 2-stroke engines.
Some background and data :
5 cyl-inline (5 x one-cylinder 384cc Husqvarna motorcycle engines.)
1920cc
5 Mikuni 38mm carburettors
Engine power > 300bhp.
Conceived by Swedish Porsche tuner Bo Strandell and Lars Nilsson. So at the time it speculated that his F2 engine project would be a Porsche based engine. So everyone was surprised when they unveiled their straight 5-cyl 2-stroke engine comprising of 5 Husqvarna motorcycle engines.
They optimistically claimed the following pros :
Small physical size engine making it advantageous for the aerodynamics.
Low weight (Up to 40% lighter than current units in 1981.)
Theoretically a higher power output
The con was :
Higher fuel comsumption than a 4-stroke engine
Anders Olofsson used the engine in a ex-Divina Galica March 792 in a few events in 1981 before the project was shelved. Vanvall had used this practise in the 50s when they coupled four Norton Manx motorcycle engines together, but their engine was a 4-stroke unit. German Egon Everts was trying to develop an two-stroke engine in the late 1970s intended for Formula 1. The rule-makers quickly deleted that option by banning two-stroke engines for Formula 1. Apart from the various Saab´s and DKW´s in rallying and circuit racing during the 50s and 60s a few had used two-stroke engines in singleseater racing. The most notable was german Gerhard Mitter who raced a 3-cylinder Auto-Union two-stroke engine in his Lotus 18 in the early 1960s. He was also trying to develop a 4cylinder version intended for a F2 Lotus 22 when he was killed. Among others Heinz Melkus also raced three-cylinder Wartburg powered singleseaters in East Germany during the same period. In 1985 Bo Strandell conceived his own Group C2 car with power from a Porsche 934 engine. It was raced unsuccessfully during 1985-86. Some 10 years later Bo Strandell was involved in GT racing. With Anders Olofsson once again driving for him in a Strandell run Ferrari F40.
#88
Doug Nye
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 09:39
Just came across the attached shot of the Cosworth 4WD car on a rare - perhaps unique? - public appearance in a Fordsport demo at Devil's Elbow, Mallory Park - of all suitable F1 venues - with Mike Costin himself at the wheel. Ugly, striking, a design with presence????
I would also commend to you the following as an unusual car of certain presence....(OK, it was a real heap actually, but there was a considerable amount of good money behind its owner/driver which would come to the fore a few years later, before his enthusiasm cost him his life...)
The lobster-claw Brabham BT34 has been cited I think in this thread. Here's how it looks with the claws removed...
All photos - The GP Library.
DCN
I would also commend to you the following as an unusual car of certain presence....(OK, it was a real heap actually, but there was a considerable amount of good money behind its owner/driver which would come to the fore a few years later, before his enthusiasm cost him his life...)
The lobster-claw Brabham BT34 has been cited I think in this thread. Here's how it looks with the claws removed...
All photos - The GP Library.
DCN
#89
tombe
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 16:07
Nothing out of the ordinary here, rod.Originally posted by rod
[b]Willys-Gavea[b]
Tombe - I would appreciate it if you could post the scanned photo, if only to dispell the image I have in my mind of a F3 Jeep!
But one Jeep-like
feature were steel body-panels.
#90
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 16:53
Originally posted by Doug Nye
I would also commend to you the following as an unusual car of certain presence....(OK, it was a real heap actually, but there was a considerable amount of good money behind its owner/driver which would come to the fore a few years later, before his enthusiasm cost him his life...)
DCN
Okay, Doug - I'll bite! The address on the picture says it's the Baird-Griffin, but if the picture in Lawrence is right, it's not that. However, your text would seem to fit the unfortunate Bobby Baird, so presumably it's the Emeryson he bought and shoved the engine from the ex-Trossi, ex-Straight Duesenberg into?
#91
rod
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 20:44
Okay, Doug - I'll bite! The address on the picture says it's the Baird-Griffin, but if the picture in Lawrence is right, it's not that. However, your text would seem to fit the unfortunate Bobby Baird, so presumably it's the Emeryson he bought and shoved the engine from the ex-Trossi, ex-Straight Duesenberg into?
Vitesse, if you are going to cheat, at least cheat properly! The filename also says MG K3 Abortion, so I guess that identifies the car - the last bit sounds right, certainly!
The Bobby Baird story sounds interesting - I hope this prompts some further discussion. ML says Bobby also entered a car called the Tornado (somewhere, sometime).
#92
Allen Brown
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 20:46
DougOriginally posted by rod
Vitesse, if you are going to cheat, at least cheat properly! The filename also says MG K3 Abortion ...
Sorry - next time I'll have to disguise the filename for you
Allen
#93
Vitesse2
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 21:14
Okay then - is this the so-called "Baird Meteorite" which was a DNS in the 1949 Manx Cup? It appears to have a straight six engine (unless of course there's another exhaust down the other side!). At a guess - a BMW? That would fit neatly with BMW-engined Veritas Meteors . Baird had entered a straight K3 in the two previous Manx Cups but perhaps that was a bit tame after the Emeryson-Duesy!
And it's not cheating ... it's called research!!
I just failed to read the second bit .... 
. Baird had entered a straight K3 in the two previous Manx Cups but perhaps that was a bit tame after the Emeryson-Duesy!And it's not cheating ... it's called research!!
I just failed to read the second bit ....
#94
Roger Clark
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Posted 11 April 2002 - 22:32
Why a BMW? THe K3 had a six cylinder engine. If it was a BMW it would surely have the familiar intakes for the carburettors on top of the bonnet.
#95
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 April 2002 - 01:15
Originally posted by Roger Clark
Why a BMW? THe K3 had a six cylinder engine. If it was a BMW it would surely have the familiar intakes for the carburettors on top of the bonnet.
I'm probably trying to be too clever ... making assumptions from the name and the fact that there would be no more races to the old voiturette regs so the s/c MG would be useless ... OTOH a BMW-engined car would be eligible for F2.
If it is Baird's K3 in the Manx, then it could be 1947 or 1949. In 1949 the Meteorite was number 47, in 1947 the straight K3 was number 7.
#96
Mac Lark
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Posted 07 May 2002 - 22:09
Graham McRae apparantly had an approach to provide F1 versions of his GM1 F5000 to a motor manufacturer.
Not sure how advanced it ever got..
Not sure how advanced it ever got..
#97
dretceterini
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Posted 07 May 2002 - 23:50
How about the Guerin de Coucy, a 1500cc car from 1948, or the CTA Arsenal or Sacha-Gordine? There were also DB that were from 1948-1949. And of course, one can not forget the Jicey F2 car (REALLY ugly) There are photos in Rene Bellu's book, Les Voitures Francais de annes 50s.
Dott.Ing.Stu Schaller
etceterinidoctor@yahoo.com
Dott.Ing.Stu Schaller
etceterinidoctor@yahoo.com
#98
hil-nice
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Posted 17 May 2002 - 08:58
The Mono JK (using a supercharged Lancia engine) was entered in the 1949 Masaryk GP at Brno, but failed to appeared.
Perhaps it hillclimbed in Czechoslovakia (Ecce Homo) ?
Perhaps it hillclimbed in Czechoslovakia (Ecce Homo) ?
#99
st59cz
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Posted 17 May 2002 - 10:43
Mono JK did not start due to practice incident. He have to start in some minor races later, but I can`t confirm that...
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#100
p de vos
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Posted 17 May 2002 - 12:12
Remember reading somewhere about the aerodynamic French DB cars with their 750cc Panhard Dyna engines, which were usually strong contenders in the Index of Performance classification at Le Mans during the fifties.
During 1955 they wanted to enter the Grand Prix arena, for which they took a Formula 3 car, fitted one of their twin-cylinder Panhard engines with a supercharger and arrived at the non-championship Pau GP with this odd car, which featured front wheel drive. It proved to be totally uncompetitive and the project was abandoned.
During 1955 they wanted to enter the Grand Prix arena, for which they took a Formula 3 car, fitted one of their twin-cylinder Panhard engines with a supercharger and arrived at the non-championship Pau GP with this odd car, which featured front wheel drive. It proved to be totally uncompetitive and the project was abandoned.
