Ferrari SF70H (terza parte)

Seb's A-Game was absolutely enough until the Asian leg of the championship. He just needs to stop making stupid judgement errors in racing situations, but I doubt he can.

I'd say he was unlucky, to borrow an excuse from the other camp. 

I am sad for Ferrari.  Seb let them down this year.  I still think that, on reflection, that the Ferrari has been faster than the Merc in general.  It is Hamilton that has made the difference for Mercedes this year.  Kimi for Ferrari is lacklustre.  To me it feels like Ferrari need A-game drivers in both cars to maximise the cars potential.  I can't help but think that if Alonso was in this years Ferrari that he would be the WDC this year.  

Next year will be very interesting.  Will Red Bull challenge earlier?  Will Merc find a solution to their inconsistent form?  Will Ferrari start the season again with the car to beat and tame unreliability?  Will McLaren have a resurgence with Renault power?

The potential fro 2018 is better than it has been for years and consistency counts.  

Seb's A-Game was absolutely enough until the Asian leg of the championship. He just needs to stop making stupid judgement errors in racing situations, but I doubt he can.

That's not enough, though.

I don't think Seb let anyone down. Merc was the better car again, if you have the better car you can drive within the car's capabilities (and your own) and still win taking fewer risks. Seb had to take more risks and he paid the price. OK perhaps one could say that he is not as good at "driving the wheels of the car" as someone like Alonso, or even HAM, but he did what he could. 

I don't think Ferrari's reliability was good enough for a title, however Seb has been quite poor at times. The race yesterday was a case in point, there really is no point in fighting with other drivers in such a way that you need a new front wing after the first couple of corners when you need to come second or first to keep the championship alive.

It'd be great if those who argue that "Vettel made it all terrible" could show which results would have been different, and why. Right now the standings are 333 vs 277 vs 262 - and yes, Bottas has only 15 fewer points than Vettel.

I've seen Baku mentioned. Suppose Vettel wouldn't have acted like an utter fool and gone on to win after Hamilton had his headrest issue. Suppose Vettel wins that, Hamilton is still 5th. Then we'd be at 333 vs 290, 43 points behind still. I've seen Singapore mentioned. Conditions are completely unpredictable, but fine - suppose Vettel would have won, with Räikkönen and Verstappen behind. Hamilton is 4th. Then we'd be at 320 vs 315. Not bad at all! Some are also mentioning Mexico. Ignoring the massive gaps between the cars up front, suppose Vettel would somehow have managed 2nd with Hamilton 3rd, even if that seems rather unlikely. Then we'd see them 333 vs 321. 12 points with two races to go is pretty good.

But Vettel's hardly the only one to have maximized the car's performance. Hamilton finished behind Bottas numerous times. He was 4th while Bottas won in Russia. He was 7th in Monaco, 4th in Austria, and 4th in Hungary. Swap those around and you're at 368 vs 321, a 47 point gap to Vettel. And that's with all of Vettel's supposed mistakes 'corrected'. Take those out and keep the four Bottas-Hamilton swaps and you're at 368 vs. 277 -  a crushing 91 point lead.

Seasons are more than just a few 'mistakes' or 'issues' singled out. Even if you believe Vettel is 100% to blame for those mentioned three incidents, that still leaves 17 other races. That's a lot of races in which, even if Hamilton had been second all the time, it was possible for someone to build a 119 point gap. I understand that for some, the story of Hamilton beating Vettel is more interesting than his previous title challengers Massa and Rosberg, but it takes quite a lot of adjusting of results to make it even close. Note also how in none of the fictional finishes above Vettel ends up leading the WDC, and that's including a rather generous 2nd in Mexico added to the results.

It'd be great if those who argue that "Vettel made it all terrible" could show which results would have been different, and why. Right now the standings are 333 vs 277 vs 262 - and yes, Bottas has only 15 fewer points than Vettel.

 

I've seen Baku mentioned. Suppose Vettel wouldn't have acted like an utter fool and gone on to win after Hamilton had his headrest issue. Suppose Vettel wins that, Hamilton is still 5th. Then we'd be at 333 vs 290, 43 points behind still. I've seen Singapore mentioned. Conditions are completely unpredictable, but fine - suppose Vettel would have won, with Räikkönen and Verstappen behind. Hamilton is 4th. Then we'd be at 320 vs 315. Not bad at all! Some are also mentioning Mexico. Ignoring the massive gaps between the cars up front, suppose Vettel would somehow have managed 2nd with Hamilton 3rd, even if that seems rather unlikely. Then we'd see them 333 vs 321. 12 points with two races to go is pretty good.

 

But Vettel's hardly the only one to have maximized the car's performance. Hamilton finished behind Bottas numerous times. He was 4th while Bottas won in Russia. He was 7th in Monaco, 4th in Austria, and 4th in Hungary. Swap those around and you're at 368 vs 321, a 47 point gap to Vettel. And that's with all of Vettel's supposed mistakes 'corrected'. Take those out and keep the four Bottas-Hamilton swaps and you're at 368 vs. 277 -  a crushing 91 point lead.

 

Seasons are more than just a few 'mistakes' or 'issues' singled out. Even if you believe Vettel is 100% to blame for those mentioned three incidents, that still leaves 17 other races. That's a lot of races in which, even if Hamilton had been second all the time, it was possible for someone to build a 119 point gap. I understand that for some, the story of Hamilton beating Vettel is more interesting than his previous title challengers Massa and Rosberg, but it takes quite a lot of adjusting of results to make it even close. Note also how in none of the fictional finishes above Vettel ends up leading the WDC, and that's including a rather generous 2nd in Mexico added to the results.

Swap cars and I think Lewis would've passed Vettel in Belgium. That alone would've been a 14 points swing.

It'd be great if those who argue that "Vettel made it all terrible" could show which results would have been different, and why. Right now the standings are 333 vs 277 vs 262 - and yes, Bottas has only 15 fewer points than Vettel.

I've seen Baku mentioned. Suppose Vettel wouldn't have acted like an utter fool and gone on to win after Hamilton had his headrest issue. Suppose Vettel wins that, Hamilton is still 5th. Then we'd be at 333 vs 290, 43 points behind still. I've seen Singapore mentioned. Conditions are completely unpredictable, but fine - suppose Vettel would have won, with Räikkönen and Verstappen behind. Hamilton is 4th. Then we'd be at 320 vs 315. Not bad at all! Some are also mentioning Mexico. Ignoring the massive gaps between the cars up front, suppose Vettel would somehow have managed 2nd with Hamilton 3rd, even if that seems rather unlikely. Then we'd see them 333 vs 321. 12 points with two races to go is pretty good.

But Vettel's hardly the only one to have maximized the car's performance. Hamilton finished behind Bottas numerous times. He was 4th while Bottas won in Russia. He was 7th in Monaco, 4th in Austria, and 4th in Hungary. Swap those around and you're at 368 vs 321, a 47 point gap to Vettel. And that's with all of Vettel's supposed mistakes 'corrected'. Take those out and keep the four Bottas-Hamilton swaps and you're at 368 vs. 277 - a crushing 91 point lead.

Seasons are more than just a few 'mistakes' or 'issues' singled out. Even if you believe Vettel is 100% to blame for those mentioned three incidents, that still leaves 17 other races. That's a lot of races in which, even if Hamilton had been second all the time, it was possible for someone to build a 119 point gap. I understand that for some, the story of Hamilton beating Vettel is more interesting than his previous title challengers Massa and Rosberg, but it takes quite a lot of adjusting of results to make it even close. Note also how in none of the fictional finishes above Vettel ends up leading the WDC, and that's including a rather generous 2nd in Mexico added to the results.

Barcenlona was impossible. Vettel had to face an unlucky SC timing, the Bottas roadblock and Mercedes' amazingly clever strategy.

Barcenlona was impossible. Vettel had to face an unlucky SC timing, the Bottas roadblock and Mercedes' amazingly clever strategy.

I am sad for Ferrari.  Seb let them down this year.  I still think that, on reflection, that the Ferrari has been faster than the Merc in general. It is Hamilton that has made the difference for Mercedes this year.  Kimi for Ferrari is lacklustre.  To me it feels like Ferrari need A-game drivers in both cars to maximise the cars potential.  I can't help but think that if Alonso was in this years Ferrari that he would be the WDC this year.  

 

Next year will be very interesting.  Will Red Bull challenge earlier?  Will Merc find a solution to their inconsistent form?  Will Ferrari start the season again with the car to beat and tame unreliability?  Will McLaren have a resurgence with Renault power?

 

The potential fro 2018 is better than it has been for years and consistency counts.  

Please stop with this nonsense! I believe Hamilton in the Ferrari this year would have had lost out to anyone of Ricciardo, Max, Vettel, or Alonso if they were driving the Merc.

Please stop with this nonsense! I believe Hamilton in the Ferrari this year would have had lost out to anyone of Ricciardo, Max, Vettel, or Alonso if they were driving the Merc.

I´m not sure, the SF70H was able to beat in many circumstances the Mercedes and having the full Scuderia working for the #1 everything could happenned.

I´m not sure, the SF70H was able to beat in many circumstances the Mercedes and having the full Scuderia working for the #1 everything could happenned.

Oh I'm sure. Bottas is only 15 points behind Vettel, and Seb has clearly been the better driver of the two this year.

Edited by Peeko, 30 October 2017 - 14:50.

the SF70H was able to beat in many circumstances the Mercedes

Mercedes has been first, second, or both, in all races except Monaco and Hungary. Ferrari has won four races, the same number of races they've been completely off the podium.

Ferrari could perhaps have won two more races, but so could Mercedes. They goofed up in Baku and Australia, they admitted to not fighting particularly hard in Malaysia, and they were less than half a tenth off pole in Monaco where track position is just about everything.

Mercedes has been first, second, or both, in all races except Monaco and Hungary. Ferrari has won four races, the same number of races they've been completely off the podium.

 

Ferrari could perhaps have won two more races, but so could Mercedes. They goofed up in Baku and Australia, they admitted to not fighting particularly hard in Malaysia, and they were less than half a tenth off pole in Monaco where track position is just about everything.

The last races make you miss the point. Until Italy Vettel was ahead of  Hamilton by five points and by 31 of Bottas. In that situation is hard to beleive that <i>Hamilton in the Ferrari this year would have had lost out to anyone of Ricciardo, Max, Vettel, or Alonso if they were driving the Merc.</i>. The debacle of Singapore was a turning point in this year WDC. Without that incident it could be went different.

Oh I'm sure. Bottas is only 15 points behind Vettel, and Seb has clearly been the better driver of the two this year.

Edited by Massa, 30 October 2017 - 16:40.

Because Bottas have zero dnf this year IIRC.

People tend to forget that with this point system, a DNF is dramatic.

DNF in Spain.

But other than that, his worst finish is 6th, which is better than the worst race finish of Hamilton or Vettel. So yeah, he has been consistent. Even if you'd say consistently slow. 

The last races make you miss the point. Until Italy Vettel was ahead of  Hamilton by five points and by 31 of Bottas. In that situation is hard to beleive that <i>Hamilton in the Ferrari this year would have had lost out to anyone of Ricciardo, Max, Vettel, or Alonso if they were driving the Merc.</i>. The debacle of Singapore was a turning point in this year WDC. Without that incident it could be went different.

The 4 consecutive races from Monza to Japan were the turning points in the WDC. Monza Merc was in a different league, and Ferrari twice had reliability issues. There was little Vettel (and yes, even Hamilton in the same car) could do about that.

The debacle of Singapore was a turning point in this year WDC. Without that incident it could be went different.

Vettel had been losing a lot of points from Canada onwards, which was the first time this year Mercedes seemed to once more dominate as they had in the previous years. Even before Singapore, both Bottas and Hamilton had outscored Vettel from Canada onwards. You can include Monaco and it's the same story, although the gap is obviously smaller. But from Canada on Hamilton scored almost more 30 points than Vettel, which is why he led the WDC before Singapore. The race there wasn't so much a turning point as it was a wasted last big chance for a Ferrari win. But that was always just going to be delaying the inevitable. As above: far more points were lost elsewhere by virtue of Ferrari not being able to win races on normal tracks after the early season fly-aways. Ferrari can't win titles by being good in Monaco and Hungary. There aren't enough tracks like it on the calender.

Of course things would have been different if different drivers had driven for different teams. But in which ways? Impossible to say. The zealous fans of driver X will undoubtedly proclaim he'd have won. That's to be expected, but it doesn't really say much more than that they're really big fans of said driver.

The 4 consecutive races from Monza to Japan were the turning points in the WDC. Monza Merc was in a different league, and Ferrari twice had reliability issues. There was little Vettel (and yes, even Hamilton in the same car) could do about that.

At Singapore Ferrari was in a different league. The reliability problems seems to me were due to taking risks after the "unforced error" of Singapore. Until that race Ferrari hadn´t make kistakes.

Unfair to blame Seb solely. The reliability in crucial times was very bad. 

 which is why he led the WDC before Singapore. 

I´m glad to discuss everything but not the numbers. According to my information Vettel arrived at Singapore leading the WDC by 19 points.

Of course things would have been different if different drivers had driven for different teams. But in which ways? Impossible to say. The zealous fans of driver X will undoubtedly proclaim he'd have won. That's to be expected, but it doesn't really say much more than that they're really big fans of said driver.

But this is true this year because the SF70H was a true contender to Mercedes. In 2016 nobody would say that Hamilton on he Ferrari would have beaten Rosberg.

At Singapore Ferrari was in a different league. The reliability problems seems to me were due to taking risks after the "unforced error" of Singapore. Until that race Ferrari hadn´t make kistakes.

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 October 2017 - 17:11.

Unfair to blame Seb solely. The reliability in crucial times was very bad. 

I´m not blaming Seb solely. I´m saying that he has part of the blame. Reliability problems costed points to him only after Singapore. The main point he has is that SF70H wasn´t at the same level of Mercedes specially in Qualy, But was good enough to have a chance to win the WDC. 

Before Singapore Race, Hamilton was leading the championship by 3 points.

My mistake. But now I count 8 points of lead for Hamilton.

It was action from the off in Sunday evening’s Singapore Grand Prix – the first night race in F1 history to be run in wet conditions. With both Ferraris and a Red Bull eliminated in a coming-together at the start, Mercedes’ Lewis Hamilton stormed to his 60th F1 victory, extending his championship lead over Sebastian Vettel from three to 28 points with just six races to go

At the season start Ferrari had the better car. Mexico showed Ferrari is the better car.
Vettel hasn't magically overdriven it, 

And it doesnt apply to Lewis? I think it does, so 13:5 poles showed which car was better.

We had a good fight with Merc. Nobody believed in Ferrari after 2016. But we delivered a really strong car. I am still convinced that the Merc was the better car, but our car was still a massive improvement to last year's Ferrari.

The Ferrari-Vettel combo in terms of race-pace was very strong, consistently strong in every race. We never had off-races like Hamilton and Merc. The first half of the championship was brilliant. Both the team and Vettel working well together and maximising their points.

Next year we need to deliver such a performance during all 21 races. The SF70H is an amazing foundation to build on next year's car. We have enthusiastic and very talented people with innovative and provocative aero-developments back in Maranello. We will see their first car next year. I am looking forward to next season. Both Ferrari and Vettel will analyse what went wrong this year and do a better job next year. Forza Ferrari!

Instead of debating what if’s and hypothetical scenario, to make a certain driver look better or worse, you people need to look at the statistics of this season.

There was really very little chance of Vettel winning the WDC, even if he had done 0 mistakes all season. This is because of multiple factors including having a slower car, worse car reliability, worse team mate and more bad luck than his main competitor Hamilton.

Pole stats

Mercedes - 13 pole positions

Ferrari - 5 pole positions

Average gap behind Mercedes, close to 3 tenths.

——————————————————————

Wins

Mercedes - 11 wins

Ferrari - 4 wins

——————————————————————

Podiums

Mercedes - 23

Ferrari - 17

The simple fact is the Ferrari has not been the fastest car by any stretch of the imagination. There is no way you can win the championship when your nearest competitor starts P1, 13 times out of the first 18 races. Every win Hamilton has had this year has been from pole position, he hasn’t actually won a race without starting P1 (apart from the Singapore, which he lead after 2 corners).

Mercedes also dominated many weekends including Canada, Britain, Monza where they utterly destroyed the competition and easily won races. Ferrari biggest winning margin of the season was 9 seconds in Australia…

Three really good races where Ferrari and Mercedes went head to head and showed the vast differences between the cars. Hamilton easy overtake on Vettel in Spain and USA, coming from a mile back (look at Hamilton onboard video), to essentially just drive past the Ferrari. Then compare the reverse situation in Spa, where a Ferrari on a faster tyre had a far better exit and was a lot closer yet struggled to get side by side with the Mercedes down the straight. Engine & drag performance clearly far superior on the Merc. If you just take a look at these 3 races and what separated the cars, that’s already a 42 point swing just here, 14 points per race, Mercedes gained and Ferrari lost because of this.

Then to top that off, Ferrari has had by far worse car reliability than Mercedes on both cars.

Luck has also been extremely on Mercedes side this season.

China & Barcelona, safety car came out at exactly the wrong time for Ferrari.

In Silverstone, tyres blew up with a lap to go. 

In Canada, a very small & innocent contact, broke Vettel wing and he was essentially last after lap 1.

Then when we get to team mates, Bottas has been far more useful to Mercedes, taking wins and points off Vettel when Lewis was struggling. Kimi’s contribution on this front has been essentially 0. 

All of these points add up to one thing, that Mercedes was just a better package all around. Vettel’s mistakes or not, you can’t expect him to win the championship when the Ferrari is consistently behind the Mercedes in all of these categories I just mentioned above.

Regarding next season, biggest improvement must be made in Qualifying. Without being able to match the Mercs in qualifying consistently race by race, then there won't be any title. The season we have just seen will be repeated.

We had a good fight with Merc. Nobody believed in Ferrari after 2016. But we delivered a really strong car. I am still convinced that the Merc was the better car, but our car was still a massive improvement to last year's Ferrari.

 

The Ferrari-Vettel combo in terms of race-pace was very strong, consistently strong in every race. We never had off-races like Hamilton and Merc. The first half of the championship was brilliant. Both the team and Vettel working well together and maximising their points.

 

Next year we need to deliver such a performance during all 21 races. The SF70H is an amazing foundation to build on next year's car. We have enthusiastic and very talented people with innovative and provocative aero-developments back in Maranello. We will see their first car next year. I am looking forward to next season. Both Ferrari and Vettel will analyse what went wrong this year and do a better job next year. Forza Ferrari!

That's because it was the best car! Faster than the Ferrari and more reliable. The only problems with it were that it was difficult to set up and it really wasn't made for extremely slow circuits like Monaco (but there aren't many of those in the calendar anyway), which made the SF70-H seem like it was the best one. There's a tendency here to make you believe that Lewis Hamilton is the ultimate driving god who won the championship in the slower car, which is definitly not the case. He deserves all the credit this year for being fast, mature, making no errors, especially under pressure. He was the better driver overall, but make no mistake: he also had the best car underneath him!

That's because it was the best car! Faster than the Ferrari and more reliable. The only problems with it were that it was difficult to set up and it really wasn't made for extremely slow circuits like Monaco (but there aren't many of those in the calendar anyway), which made the SF70-H seem like it was the best one. There's a tendency here to make you believe that Lewis Hamilton is the ultimate driving god who won the championship in the slower car, which is definitly not the case. He deserves all the credit this year for being fast, mature, making no errors, especially under pressure. He was the better driver overall, but make no mistake: he also had the best car underneath him!

True. Reading some comments on the Merc thread, I think Hamilton would win the race in Malaysia even with the spark plug problem, and of course he would win in Japan with the PU problem.

I'd say, Ferrari was the quickest car in:

Australia

Monaco

Hungary

Singapore

Malaysia

Mexico

They were even in:

China

Bahrain (not sure about this one, maybe it was a Mercedes track and Seb just did a madness)

Russia (Ferrari was probably fastest here, but Merc's engine kinda nullifies that advantage)

Spain

Austria

Spa

and Merc was ahead in:

Canada

Baku

Silverstone

Monza

Suzuka

Austin

Obviously Mercedes has been the best car overall because of the better reliability, but in terms of performance the last time we've had two different teams being as close to one another and fighting for the championship was 2008...

Instead of debating what if’s and hypothetical scenario, to make a certain driver look better or worse, you people need to look at the statistics of this season.

 

There was really very little chance of Vettel winning the WDC, even if he had done 0 mistakes all season. This is because of multiple factors including having a slower car, worse car reliability, worse team mate and more bad luck than his main competitor Hamilton.

 

Pole stats

Mercedes - 13 pole positions

Ferrari - 5 pole positions

 

Average gap behind Mercedes, close to 3 tenths.

 

——————————————————————

 

Wins

Mercedes - 11 wins

Ferrari - 4 wins

 

——————————————————————

 

Podiums

Mercedes - 23

Ferrari - 17

 

 

The simple fact is the Ferrari has not been the fastest car by any stretch of the imagination. There is no way you can win the championship when your nearest competitor starts P1, 13 times out of the first 18 races. Every win Hamilton has had this year has been from pole position, he hasn’t actually won a race without starting P1 (apart from the Singapore, which he lead after 2 corners).

 

Mercedes also dominated many weekends including Canada, Britain, Monza where they utterly destroyed the competition and easily won races. Ferrari biggest winning margin of the season was 9 seconds in Australia…

 

Three really good races where Ferrari and Mercedes went head to head and showed the vast differences between the cars. Hamilton easy overtake on Vettel in Spain and USA, coming from a mile back (look at Hamilton onboard video), to essentially just drive past the Ferrari. Then compare the reverse situation in Spa, where a Ferrari on a faster tyre had a far better exit and was a lot closer yet struggled to get side by side with the Mercedes down the straight. Engine & drag performance clearly far superior on the Merc. If you just take a look at these 3 races and what separated the cars, that’s already a 42 point swing just here, 14 points per race, Mercedes gained and Ferrari lost because of this.

 

Then to top that off, Ferrari has had by far worse car reliability than Mercedes on both cars.

 

Luck has also been extremely on Mercedes side this season.

China & Barcelona, safety car came out at exactly the wrong time for Ferrari.

In Silverstone, tyres blew up with a lap to go. 

In Canada, a very small & innocent contact, broke Vettel wing and he was essentially last after lap 1.

 

Then when we get to team mates, Bottas has been far more useful to Mercedes, taking wins and points off Vettel when Lewis was struggling. Kimi’s contribution on this front has been essentially 0. 

 

All of these points add up to one thing, that Mercedes was just a better package all around. Vettel’s mistakes or not, you can’t expect him to win the championship when the Ferrari is consistently behind the Mercedes in all of these categories I just mentioned above.

 

Regarding next season, biggest improvement must be made in Qualifying. Without being able to match the Mercs in qualifying consistently race by race, then there won't be any title. The season we have just seen will be repeated.

Not all the WDC have been won in the fastest car. This was close to be one of them.

Instead of debating what if’s and hypothetical scenario, to make a certain driver look better or worse, you people need to look at the statistics of this season.

 

There was really very little chance of Vettel winning the WDC, even if he had done 0 mistakes all season. This is because of multiple factors including having a slower car, worse car reliability, worse team mate and more bad luck than his main competitor Hamilton.

 

Pole stats

Mercedes - 13 pole positions

Ferrari - 5 pole positions

 

Average gap behind Mercedes, close to 3 tenths.

 

——————————————————————

 

Wins

Mercedes - 11 wins

Ferrari - 4 wins

 

——————————————————————

 

Podiums

Mercedes - 23

Ferrari - 17

 

 

The simple fact is the Ferrari has not been the fastest car by any stretch of the imagination. There is no way you can win the championship when your nearest competitor starts P1, 13 times out of the first 18 races. Every win Hamilton has had this year has been from pole position, he hasn’t actually won a race without starting P1 (apart from the Singapore, which he lead after 2 corners).

 

Mercedes also dominated many weekends including Canada, Britain, Monza where they utterly destroyed the competition and easily won races. Ferrari biggest winning margin of the season was 9 seconds in Australia…

 

Three really good races where Ferrari and Mercedes went head to head and showed the vast differences between the cars. Hamilton easy overtake on Vettel in Spain and USA, coming from a mile back (look at Hamilton onboard video), to essentially just drive past the Ferrari. Then compare the reverse situation in Spa, where a Ferrari on a faster tyre had a far better exit and was a lot closer yet struggled to get side by side with the Mercedes down the straight. Engine & drag performance clearly far superior on the Merc. If you just take a look at these 3 races and what separated the cars, that’s already a 42 point swing just here, 14 points per race, Mercedes gained and Ferrari lost because of this.

 

Then to top that off, Ferrari has had by far worse car reliability than Mercedes on both cars.

 

Luck has also been extremely on Mercedes side this season.

China & Barcelona, safety car came out at exactly the wrong time for Ferrari.

In Silverstone, tyres blew up with a lap to go. 

In Canada, a very small & innocent contact, broke Vettel wing and he was essentially last after lap 1.

 

Then when we get to team mates, Bottas has been far more useful to Mercedes, taking wins and points off Vettel when Lewis was struggling. Kimi’s contribution on this front has been essentially 0. 

 

All of these points add up to one thing, that Mercedes was just a better package all around. Vettel’s mistakes or not, you can’t expect him to win the championship when the Ferrari is consistently behind the Mercedes in all of these categories I just mentioned above.

 

Regarding next season, biggest improvement must be made in Qualifying. Without being able to match the Mercs in qualifying consistently race by race, then there won't be any title. The season we have just seen will be repeated.

It'd be great if those who argue that "Vettel made it all terrible" could show which results would have been different, and why. Right now the standings are 333 vs 277 vs 262 - and yes, Bottas has only 15 fewer points than Vettel.

I've seen Baku mentioned. Suppose Vettel wouldn't have acted like an utter fool and gone on to win after Hamilton had his headrest issue. Suppose Vettel wins that, Hamilton is still 5th. Then we'd be at 333 vs 290, 43 points behind still. I've seen Singapore mentioned. Conditions are completely unpredictable, but fine - suppose Vettel would have won, with Räikkönen and Verstappen behind. Hamilton is 4th. Then we'd be at 320 vs 315. Not bad at all! Some are also mentioning Mexico. Ignoring the massive gaps between the cars up front, suppose Vettel would somehow have managed 2nd with Hamilton 3rd, even if that seems rather unlikely. Then we'd see them 333 vs 321. 12 points with two races to go is pretty good.

But Vettel's hardly the only one to have maximized the car's performance. Hamilton finished behind Bottas numerous times. He was 4th while Bottas won in Russia. He was 7th in Monaco, 4th in Austria, and 4th in Hungary. Swap those around and you're at 368 vs 321, a 47 point gap to Vettel. And that's with all of Vettel's supposed mistakes 'corrected'. Take those out and keep the four Bottas-Hamilton swaps and you're at 368 vs. 277 - a crushing 91 point lead.

Seasons are more than just a few 'mistakes' or 'issues' singled out. Even if you believe Vettel is 100% to blame for those mentioned three incidents, that still leaves 17 other races. That's a lot of races in which, even if Hamilton had been second all the time, it was possible for someone to build a 119 point gap. I understand that for some, the story of Hamilton beating Vettel is more interesting than his previous title challengers Massa and Rosberg, but it takes quite a lot of adjusting of results to make it even close. Note also how in none of the fictional finishes above Vettel ends up leading the WDC, and that's including a rather generous 2nd in Mexico added to the results.

Not all the WDC have been won in the fastest car. This was close to be one of them.

This car wasn't close enough that's the point I am making. 

You just had to look at the first 7 races, before we got to Baku, where Vettel was perfect and Hamilton up to that point had more poor weekends than Vettel. The points advantage Vettel had was only 12 points, hardly anything and he drove better and was more consistent than Hamilton. In terms of competitive consistency between the cars, this was the best part of the season for Ferrari and yet the advantage was only 12 points?

It was obvious the good start we had to the season, which was better than the Mercedes wasn't going to last (Every season there are ups and downs). After the summer break, the car was no longer as competitive as the Mercs and wasn't as reliable either. The fact that Bottas is only 15 points behind Vettel tells you everything. Bottas this season had similar amount of misfortune as Vettel but has performed poorer for most of the weekends, yet there is a decent chance he might end up 2nd in the WDC.

Good luck trying to beat a faster competitor while he also has better reliability and better general luck when it mattered. 

Edited by F1Racing90, 31 October 2017 - 19:37.

Hamilton easy overtake on Vettel in Spain and USA, coming from a mile back (look at Hamilton onboard video), to essentially just drive past the Ferrari. Then compare the reverse situation in Spa, where a Ferrari on a faster tyre had a far better exit and was a lot closer yet struggled to get side by side with the Mercedes down the straight.

Right, which is why it's so important for Ferrari to finally get a better car in qualifying. It's one thing to have an engine that's slightly worse, but if you add a bad starting position to the mix you're just going to look at this same scenario playing out again and again.
 

In Silverstone, tyres blew up with a lap to go.

True, and although I have little sympathy for Pirelli's continued "performance", it's also the case that this only happend to Ferrari. Something was clearly not adding up, and the team can't brush that all off by referring to 'bad luck'. Yet another area for the team to improve!
 

Then when we get to team mates, Bottas has been far more useful to Mercedes, taking wins and points off Vettel when Lewis was struggling. Kimi’s contribution on this front has been essentially 0.

I suppose some credit for the Hungary win has to go to Räikkonen, who held off two Mercedes to protect an ailing Vettel. But indeed, on the whole it's been pretty unimpressive.

It's unfortunate that the season end played out the way it did.

Mercedes were just a little bit better in all departments. Strategy, pitstops, reliability, maximising the chances for wins and minimising the damage.

You could tell that was a team used to being in the title fight, while at Ferrari it was a little surprise that they were in the thick of it, and it showed.

It is a young team and hopefully they will take heart from the car's performance.

Even fighting for the title was a great achievement looking at the start of the season. Nobody gave Ferrari a chance. It was all Mercedes and maybe RedBull would challenge with the new rules. Everyone forgot about Ferrari but they should thank Ferrari for putting up a fight and making this season interesting.

It looks like they are doing the same again, talking of Hamilton Verstappen title fights.
However I hope the guys just continue about their business working hard and they will be successful. They have improved the car performance year on year since 2015.

Now as the bosses said, some reliability processes need to be improved and mainly, Ferrari just has to be of the mindset that they are ready to win titles again to be honest. And then success will come.

To be honest, that will be premature. 

When Lewis becomes 4 time World Champion: "he is one of the all time greats". When Seb becomes 4 time World Champion: "we can't know for sure yet cause he is driving Newey cars".

When Lewis becomes 4 time World Champion: "he is one of the all time greats". When Seb becomes 4 time World Champion: "we can't know for sure yet cause he is driving Newey cars".

And to quote a user from a forum where this is already being debated:

Nelson Piquet - 3 titles - who is this? Some troll?

Ayrton Senna - 3 titles - almost officially best racer of all time (maybe along with Prost and Schumi).

Stats don't mean everything, as much as cynical people love to be.

Stats are not all encompassing, one of the reasons Alonso who's "only" a 2 X Champion is rated an all time great; As brilliant as Vettel is, most pundits will stop short of calling him an all time great. I think the key difference being Lewis has gone up against much higher calibre of team-mates in Alonso, Button & Rosberg, and has stacked up favourably against all of them. 

Edited by Mercstar, 02 November 2017 - 19:57.

Stats are not all encompassing, one of the reasons Alonso who's "only" a 2 X Champion is rated an all time great; As brilliant as Vettel is, most pundits will stop short of calling him an all time great.

Stats are indeed just numbers, and given that in F1 cars are almost immeasurably more important than drivers there's only so much a guy can do when he doesn't have access to the car that matters. That Rosberg won nearly as many races in three years time as some of F1's past champions have in their entire career says more about the Mercedes cars he and Hamilton drove than it does about Rosberg as a driver, regardless of how solid and strong he was. As for Vettel, he has been at the forefront of F1 for nearly 10 years; winning races, taking poles, being in five or six title battles, and standing on dozens and dozens of podiums. If that's not an "all time great", the criteria have become so highly selective that the people included end up saying more about the person making the list than those supposedly being ranked.

Anyway, back to the 70: here's hoping Ferrari turns it all up to 11 in Brazil and takes at least one more win, even if that means the other car going up in smoke. Having zero wins after the summer is nothing short of bad.

4 race wins against Red Bull's 3... If someone had said that to me at the start of the season, I would have laughed at their face

When Lewis becomes 4 time World Champion: "he is one of the all time greats". When Seb becomes 4 time World Champion: "we can't know for sure yet cause he is driving Newey cars".

It´s even more funny because the Mercedes enjoyed a much bigger cushion to the rest of the field on average over these years, and also because Vettel took every chance to be champion when he had the equipment, while Lewis could not.

https://www.bloomber...otor-rules-push