Photographers; what price did they pay?
#1
Posted 02 June 2008 - 22:55
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#2
Posted 02 June 2008 - 23:35
My grandfather was hit and killed at Nazareth Speedway around April, 1963. I was around 8 at the time, but I remember hearing he was right up against the guard rail and one car skidded into another then pirouetted over the guard rail hitting him.
I posted about this a few months ago and no one remembered it or had any information. If someone here can offer some additional information my brother and I would love to hear it.
#3
Posted 02 June 2008 - 23:53
And there was a photographer at Calder got run over by John Bowe in a Ralt once. I think that was in 1982, but I can't recall who the photographer was. He wasn't hurt badly.
At Warwick Farm there used to be some photographers would take pics of the cars coming straight at them heading into the Causeway. One set up a tripod there all the time... one day Bob Jane in his red Mustang showed him it wasn't the wisest course... I think the tripod needed replacing, probably his underpants as well.
There were tele lenses back through that period, by the way, but not the long things they have today. Or at least not with the flexibility (and zoom qualities) they have today.
#5
Posted 03 June 2008 - 01:37
Way back we had much more freedom and yet we and the marshals seemed to have reasonable common sense. What you feared then was the same as today, two cars colliding, where you cannot tell where they spiral off. Also picture editors now want to see the whites of the drivers eyes. Luckily there are still some around that can appreciate some of the more creative work of people like Bernard Asset in the 1980s or Paul-Henri Cahier and Darren Heath today.
I can only remember one occasion when I did something that today would have been rated as criminal. This was at Kirkistown in Ireland in 1953 and the main race for 500cc Formula 3 races. I chose to stand on a straw bale on the outside of the hairpin at the end of the straight. Straw bales were spaced quite widely apart. It seemed safe enough until Ken Tyrrell got into trouble with his Cooper and headed towards me. I wisely decided to stay where I was and he shot past me to my right between my straw bale and the next. Many years later I met Ken and idly mentioned the story and he remarked " So you were the idiot on the straw bale I don't know how I missed you."
#6
Posted 03 June 2008 - 01:47
Common sense has disappeared like the extra finger or extra toe!;)
#7
Posted 03 June 2008 - 02:59
Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Fifty years ago you could not buy a long focus lens such as you find today and we all had to use what was readily available and within your budget. I know that I did not get my first 200 mm lens until about 1960 and the regular focal length of lens was 135 mm. but back then one tended to photograph a scene including a racing car rather than a close-up showing every rivet. This is why people today rave about Louis Klementaski's photographs because they were well composed scenes that told a story.....
This is even more so the case with pre-war photos, of course...
And don't so many of them look great with backgrounds that show where they are and what challenges the circuit might present, as well as the atmosphere of the occasion?
Anyone familiar with Byron Gunther's photography would well understand.
#8
Posted 03 June 2008 - 03:52
Obviously, Flip was "close" in this photo, but not "too close". Upon checking further, I was surprised and saddened to learn the Schulke passed away a few weeks ago from congestive heart failure at age 77. More on this remarkable photographer here:
http://www.flipphoto.com/index.html
Photo by Ted Langton-Adams, copyright Eric Faulks, featured in the book Tom Johnston and I recently finished editing. (Where was Ted when HE took this picture???!!!)
Vince H.
#9
Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:15
#10
Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:18
No other info.
#11
Posted 03 June 2008 - 04:43
During the race, I was standing next to the wooden inner railing, shot a car coming by and then heard a crunch.
I turned around and the car had come through the railing about twelve feet behind me.
#12
Posted 03 June 2008 - 06:39
Long lenses don't bring immunity, of course, even for photographers standing in reasonably sensible designated areas. The ebullient Gary Hawkins lost both legs when an errant Mazda used him to cushion its impact with the Silverstone barriers in the late 1990s.
#13
Posted 03 June 2008 - 07:27
Originally posted by Pist-N-Broke
Today's telephoto lens creates grate close up action shots, but there must have been pressure from picture editors in the 50/60s to go that few foot or two to far. Who were these chaps and just how close to the cars did they get. [/B]
For TNF members who have bought my book, I suggest you turn to page 173 for an answer.
I started off using a Rolleicord, then moved on to Minolta and then Nikon.
No photo in the book was taken with a lens longer than 200mm
Peter Darley
Jim Clark - Life at Team Lotus
#14
Posted 03 June 2008 - 07:37
#16
Posted 03 June 2008 - 08:47
#17
Posted 03 June 2008 - 09:02
Hill saw Nick taking pictures and got closer and closer and eventually the exhaust haze burnt Nick's trousers.
#18
Posted 03 June 2008 - 09:14
Originally posted by Terry Walker
Some years ago a TV camerman was killed when a dragster flew apart and the engine, with supercharger attached, hit him at about 200 mph while he was working his camera on a scaffolding. It was in the USA, there was a scarey colour photospread of the incident in a mag I read.
No other info.
Could it have been this, Terry?
http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=1633
#19
Posted 03 June 2008 - 09:46
...I didn't get the rest of the sequence on film...I was too busy trying to get out of the way!
#21
Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:45
http://www.motorspor...hp?db=ct&n=2804
#22
Posted 03 June 2008 - 10:48
Stuart Nelson (Haggispeed) hits a straw bale as a photographer legs it!
As Nelson still spins the bale chases the snapper!
#23
Posted 03 June 2008 - 11:49
Originally posted by Pist-N-Broke
Looking at the picture post showing Mallory hairpin and Andy Shaw stood at what appears to be its edge ( personal photos of British club racing ) leads me to wonder how many photographers went too far. I am fairly sure today it's impossible to get that close to the track edge during a race. I wonder how many got clipped or lost their camera to the car looming large in the viewfinder. Today's telephoto lens creates grate close up action shots, but there must have been pressure from picture editors in the 50/60s to go that few foot or two to far. Who were these chaps and just how close to the cars did they get.
On a dynamic basis, you felt far more vulnerable, say, on the outside of Old Hall at Oulton, than you ever did on the apex of the Mallory hairpin.
Only injury I ever sustained was falling down a timing pit some cad dug in the bank behind the paddock at Brands.
A few things got a bit close on occassions, but I liked solid things between me and cars (probably explains why so many of my pictures were blurred)
But some guys got a bit closer than me.
Paul Boothroyd got clobbered by a F.First at Oulton (Phil Rainford dodged that one)
There is a great picture of Chris Davies with a FF1600 rolling above him
Tony Todd dodging a FF1600 at Croft
Gary Hawkins had his unfortunate at Silverstone
I will have to get my scanner working.
Regards
Andrew Shaw
#24
Posted 03 June 2008 - 12:00
Originally posted by Ray Bell
And there was a photographer at Calder got run over by John Bowe in a Ralt once. I think that was in 1982, but I can't recall who the photographer was. He wasn't hurt badly.
It was Dale Rodgers, who now owns Revolution Racegear and he got a broken leg or two out of it.
Once at a rally, I got stranded on the road (there was a steep bank that I couldn't climb and a steep drop off the other side) so I just stood as close to the edge as I could and photographed the car - as if I'd intended to do so all along.
Here it is....
Then there's that shot of Jim Clark bellowing at the photographer who's standing right on the apex of a corner! Great shot.
Bruce Moxon
#25
Posted 03 June 2008 - 13:35
Were any photographers involved in the Stromellen crash at Barcelona a year later?
#26
Posted 03 June 2008 - 13:57
#27
Posted 03 June 2008 - 15:54
Thats one photo sequence I'll never forget - luckily, he never saw it coming.Originally posted by Terry Walker
Some years ago a TV camerman was killed when a dragster flew apart and the engine, with supercharger attached, hit him at about 200 mph while he was working his camera on a scaffolding. It was in the USA, there was a scarey colour photospread of the incident in a mag I read.
No other info.
#28
Posted 03 June 2008 - 16:14
I was working with a cameraman on the rally of Australia, and Sainz car hit him, he was very very lucky.
Those who have paid the price, without being that close, Traub, Daytona Beach, cut in two by the Triplex Special (aka The Spirit of Elkdom") 1929? Traub had left his camera to try and get away from the car, and at the last second the car swerved!
#29
Posted 03 June 2008 - 16:23
This is even more so the case with pre-war photos, of course...And don't so many of them look great with backgrounds that show where they are and what challenges the circuit might present, as well as the atmosphere of the occasion? QUOTE
Ray, That is the very problem we have today with photo editors cropping shots for maximum car image, rather than taking in the whole shot, which tells the whole story, which the photographer had no doubt carefully co ordinated.
Roger Lund
#30
Posted 03 June 2008 - 17:47
Having shot races since 1965 at US tracks, many with minimal barriers (Nelson Ledges, Aspen), etc., I find that most professional photographers are well aware of danger, but amateurs are often totally oblivious. I've actually chased people with little wide-angle-lensed snapshot cameras out of dangerous places.
One of my rules is to always walk around the track with the cars coming toward me, not just for better photos but so I can see them coming at me. Another rule is to try to keep a stout object (barrier, tree, car, etc.) between me and the track. Rather than sitting, I like to stay on my feet, too!
Frank
#31
Posted 03 June 2008 - 18:34
There were two aspects that did get a bit scary. In those days, there weren't any shuttle vans. We had to walk the complete course in the Florida sun carrying Nikon Fs with motor drives that weighted more that some of the cars racing! To save time and distance, we'd cross the track at appropriate places. You'd wait until there was a good break in traffic, take a long breath, and run like hell over the track. Never had a problem, but I do remember one photog from one of the newspapers tripping in the middle of the track and falling down!
The other danger was the pits, especially at night. Daytona wasn't too bad - the pits were wide and long. Sebring was another story. It was only two lanes wide and very cramped. When cars would come in, all the photogs woulf crowd around the front and shoot. When they finished refueling and changing tires, the driver would jump in, start the engine and tear out. They didn't care who was standing in front. In fact, I think they got a real charge trying to hit us in the shins with the front of the cars!
#32
Posted 03 June 2008 - 21:39
#33
Posted 03 June 2008 - 21:48
There was always a photographer who wanted to cross the track during a long race, generally they would rely on us to give them a guide as to when it was clear, but mostly just to acknowledge that we were there and a sort of arm of authority.
It always struck me as strange that people run across the track when there's ample time to walk... as there often is. Running is a less stable mode of movement, especially when loaded down, and there's a greater risk of dropping something when running. Not only that, it's not much quicker than a good fast walk, not for 20m or so anyway.
Something like watching people duck their heads under helicopter rotors that are 15' above them.
Odsey... I've likewise been alongside the Mulsanne with cars going past quickly. Just before the braking area, on the inside of the circuit, sitting with Colin Bond, Peter Brock and John Harvey, whose car failed to start the race. I snapped a pic, a nice one too, of the WM Peugeot that was doing that kind of speed. It did 245mph at some time in the race, but probably not at that time.
It's a daunting place. In my discussion with Harvey there we talked about how dangerous it really was sitting there in the edge of the woods. "If a car blew up or lost a tyre..."
#34
Posted 03 June 2008 - 22:43
Originally posted by hipperson
This is a great Nick Loudon shot of G Hill at Goodwood.
Hill saw Nick taking pictures and got closer and closer and eventually the exhaust haze burnt Nick's trousers.
Wow ! Who's the bravest of the two in that situation , G. Hill or the Loudon chap ?
#35
Posted 04 June 2008 - 02:59
I don't know, but what an excellent picture.Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA
Wow ! Who's the bravest of the two in that situation , G. Hill or the Loudon chap ?
Of course I don't agree with the risks taken in order to get that image.
#36
Posted 04 June 2008 - 08:55
This photo hung in Enzo's house....Nick has a lovely letter from the man thanking him for his favourite Ferrari shot.
I just love this............
#37
Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:01
Type 43 H-16 Oulton again I think.
Bravery creates these sort of shots.....
#38
Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:48
Originally posted by hipperson
And of course Loudon's signature shot....Amon Gold Cup Oulton Park 1968 Ferrari 312.
This photo hung in Enzo's house....Nick has a lovely letter from the man thanking him for his favourite Ferrari shot.
I just love this............
Looks like a big risk to take for the shot. I wonder how much he got paid for it.
#39
Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:51
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#40
Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:06
I am afraid we neither looked at our job as cynically or as commercially as you appear to assume.
The motivation behind the manner in which we took our photographs back then was to provide the photographs that appear still to be of interest as a historical record.
Had we not done that willingly, and with due concern about our own safety, this particular thread would be totally irrelevant and we would be back to the 1930's when some of the magazines used drawings rather than photographs.
#41
Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:57
Originally posted by Ray Bell
As a flaggie I often had photographers join me trackside...
There was always a photographer who wanted to cross the track during a long race, generally they would rely on us to give them a guide as to when it was clear, but mostly just to acknowledge that we were there and a sort of arm of authority.
It always struck me as strange that people run across the track when there's ample time to walk... as there often is. Running is a less stable mode of movement, especially when loaded down, and there's a greater risk of dropping something when running. Not only that, it's not much quicker than a good fast walk, not for 20m or so anyway.
Something like watching people duck their heads under helicopter rotors that are 15' above them.
Odsey... I've likewise been alongside the Mulsanne with cars going past quickly. Just before the braking area, on the inside of the circuit, sitting with Colin Bond, Peter Brock and John Harvey, whose car failed to start the race. I snapped a pic, a nice one too, of the WM Peugeot that was doing that kind of speed. It did 245mph at some time in the race, but probably not at that time.
It's a daunting place. In my discussion with Harvey there we talked about how dangerous it really was sitting there in the edge of the woods. "If a car blew up or lost a tyre..."
When ever I am trackside I always "check in" with the marshals as I wander round to ensure they are happy with where I am standing (e.g. not blocking their line of sight etc). I have seen a lot of photographers over the years standing in frankly dangerous postions and often wonder why the marshals don't get them to move. On the two occasions I have been asked to move by the marshals I have done so immediately as I do not think it is right to hassle the marshals who are all volunteers and do such a great job.
#42
Posted 04 June 2008 - 12:25
I can assure you he got absolutely no money for his work. He just loved the cameraderie amongst all the drivers and photographers.
As Andrew says he is totally mad.
He stopped serious photography as the full face helmets arrived on the scene.......from his photos you can see why.
He has a 10,000 negative archive...most never printed.
He prints all his own work in his darkroom in North London.DCN opinions that he is one of the very best at this.
He has proved to be ,as has Andrew, a true friend in helping us raise money for the childrens hospice.
Here is Nick signing Peter Darley's wonderful book 'Jim Clark: Life at Team Lotus.' There is a snap of Nick in the book making a rude sign to Richard Attwood.
Peter and Coterie donated the book to our charity auction in Le Touquet in May 2007.
Nicks photos made £4000 for the charity and Andrew Kitsons donations made over £5000.
Despite all the terrible characters we read about in the papers I can assure you there are some truly unselfish people out there.
Do not despair.
#43
Posted 04 June 2008 - 12:36
Originally posted by hipperson
He stopped serious photography as the full face helmets arrived on the scene.......from his photos you can see why.
He has a 10,000 negative archive...most never printed.
He prints all his own work in his darkroom in North London.DCN opinions that he is one of the very best at this.
I love his stuff and it's nice to know a little more about him. I also wouldn't mind seeing some of his archive
#44
Posted 04 June 2008 - 12:37
#45
Posted 04 June 2008 - 13:04
Sir John Whitmore is our auctioneer in August this year ( he was our speaker in 2005)....he is an excellent public speaker so we are expecting a top notch performance from him! I even have a fine young lissom blonde collecting him in her Lotus 2-11....in green with a yellow stripe of course.
Six more Loudon photos up for grabs all expensively mounted , signed and framed. They all take your breath away....Fittipaldi F3,Arundel Elan,Salvadori Jaguar, Wisell F2,Clark Lotus and Sears Lotus 30.
Auction donations from WilliamsF1,McLarenF1,FerrariF1.....all coming up trumps this year
30 lots of unbelievable quality......
Sorry to ramble but what about this...
Donated by famous team entrant Ian Walker ( IWR Racing)
Chapman has written a message and so has Hill.........I hope you are unable to read Hill's salcious remark.
#46
Posted 04 June 2008 - 13:15
Originally posted by alansart
I love his stuff and it's nice to know a little more about him. I also wouldn't mind seeing some of his archive
Keep an eye on the book stands in months to come!;)
#47
Posted 04 June 2008 - 13:24
Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Keep an eye on the book stands in months to come!;)
Oh no! I keep on buying motor racing books, and my wife is getting a bit fed up with it. Can it come in a brown paper wrapper
#48
Posted 04 June 2008 - 13:55
The Elise Garden Party sounds like fun. Do you still have the red MK2 you bought in Edinburgh? It was me you bought it from!
James
#49
Posted 04 June 2008 - 14:02
31,000 mile and never missed a beat.....
#50
Posted 04 June 2008 - 15:02
Originally posted by Pist-N-Broke
Looks like a big risk to take for the shot. I wonder how much he got paid for it.
Not enough .