278 replies to this topic

[bradbury west]

I read the Series 2 car of 1965 gained front and rear spoilers (among other changes to try to sort out its handling).

...................

and when they did they were very small items. The car tested by Mick Walsh was a 40, and even that had a much smaller bib than the one posted here. Even in the photo in Autosport when Lotus sold off the 2 40s straight from the US they had very modest bib spoilers, so someone is having the proverbial larf, or taking the mick.

It seems ludicrous that a car should be passed like that posted, almost in defiance of period photographs, when, for example, John Ruston had to jump through hoops, plait sawdust and knit steam to provide period evidence for one of his Porsches.

If the car in question is the ex Prophet car his daughter Jane no doubt has period shots. ISTR there was one on TNF, or in Autosport, with his car and transporter
Roger Lund

[Graham Gauld]

Jim Clark TT 1965 Oulton Park. Compare Copyright Graham Gauld Library

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[Belmondo]

Does anyone remember a white Lotus 30 raced years ago in HSCC events by Brian Cocks? It had very odd bodywork and looked nothing like any other Lotus.

[Odseybod]

Off at an even bigger tangent from the Silverstone Classic, it's interesting (at least to me, with zero knowledge of aerodynamics), that on both the car in my Snetterton pic and the contraversial white one at Silverstone, the ends of the front bib spoiler seem angled into the airflow rather than away from it, resisting rather than smoothing its passage. But as I say, I know nuttin' (nohow).

[Allan Lupton]

Off at an even bigger tangent from the Silverstone Classic, it's interesting (at least to me, with zero knowledge of aerodynamics), that on both the car in my Snetterton pic and the contraversial white one at Silverstone, the ends of the front bib spoiler seem angled into the airflow rather than away from it, resisting rather than smoothing its passage. But as I say, I know nuttin' (nohow).

The Snetterton air dam looks as if it were at least partly designed to aid cooling airflow and those counter-intuitive ends are part of what makes it look like that. It is also not quite vertical (again that's in the air-scoop sense).
Mind you I am not an expert on air dams/spoilers/whatever as we aeroplane men only use deliberately-added drag for control and it is therefore on moving surfaces (e.g. airbrakes, roll spoilers and lift-dumpers)

Edited by Allan Lupton, 04 August 2010 - 16:01.

[Odseybod]

Mind you I am not an expert on air dams/spoilers/whatever as we aeroplane men only use deliberately-added drag for control and it is therefore on moving surfaces (e.g. airbrakes, roll spoilers and lift-dumpers)

Hm, reminds me of a noted aviator who tried to explain to us at a Shuttleworth Volunteers lecture that a good tailplane was designed to 'lift downwards'. Sort of saw what he meant.

[bradbury west]

Does anyone remember a white Lotus 30 raced years ago in HSCC events by Brian Cocks? It had very odd bodywork and looked nothing like any other Lotus.

That was and still is 30-S2-04 and was the ex JCB car raced by Cocks in the very early 80s. It was bought highly re-engineered by JCB from Bamfords by Peter Sadler, one of the Bamford drivers, the other being Trevor Taylor in 1964 and 1965, and they both crashed it heavily in those years, and the bodywork when Cocks bought it in '80 was as it had been at JCB, as the car had been modified so much as to be almost unrecognisable as a 30, and had been hustled from dealer to dealer, unloved, for many years apparently. Tony Dron tested it and raced it at Brands in 1985, and it was an utter pig, " a nightmare come true", perhaps more a representation of that car rather than the 30 as a model. Suitable tyres were the main problem, along with chassis rigidity and directional vagueness, and Cocks fought it manfully for some seasons. The test article is another example of Dron's excellent writing skills.
Roger Lund

[Robin Fairservice]

Are they trying to stop air from going under the car and creating front end lift?

[Allan Lupton]

Hm, reminds me of a noted aviator who tried to explain to us at a Shuttleworth Volunteers lecture that a good tailplane was designed to 'lift downwards'. Sort of saw what he meant.

OT a little but I can't see why the "good" is necessary. Straight and level the tailplane on a conventional aeroplane counteracts the nose-down pitching moment inherent in getting lift from a cambered wing. For manoeuvering in pitch you either increase or reduce the negative lift and that is done either by changing the angle of attack of the whole tailplane or by changing its camber by using elevators.

[Giraffe]

Does anyone remember a white Lotus 30 raced years ago in HSCC events by Brian Cocks? It had very odd bodywork and looked nothing like any other Lotus.

An interesting related site:

http://www.lotus30.com/MainPage.html

[Allan Lupton]

Are they trying to stop air from going under the car and creating front end lift?

Probably but the air dams look like a lot of drag to me and remembering how much care was taken in the 1960s to design low-drag bodywork I always thought there had to be a better way.
One way was to have the cooling air exit on the top of the car where there would otherwise have been a low-pressure area and not underneath where it wasn't as ugly. The car in post 243 seems to have that and has a spoiler/air dam as well.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 04 August 2010 - 21:32.

[hipperson]

For JB a couple from the Lotus Festival...R4

I believe here bad news was imparted..Mike Jiggle from Vintage Racecar listens in....



Bob Dance holding court

Edited by hipperson, 05 August 2010 - 20:01.

[David Lawson]

Any chance of obtaining an electronic copy of the one of Lotus 25/R4 at Becketts? I am putting together a scrapbook of the car's new life in historic racing, and would like to include this photo.

Have you checked your PMs?

David

[Odseybod]

That was and still is 30-S2-04 and was the ex JCB car raced by Cocks in the very early 80s. It was bought highly re-engineered by JCB from Bamfords by Peter Sadler, one of the Bamford drivers, the other being Trevor Taylor in 1964 and 1965, and they both crashed it heavily in those years, and the bodywork when Cocks bought it in '80 was as it had been at JCB, as the car had been modified so much as to be almost unrecognisable as a 30, and had been hustled from dealer to dealer, unloved, for many years apparently. Tony Dron tested it and raced it at Brands in 1985, and it was an utter pig, " a nightmare come true", perhaps more a representation of that car rather than the 30 as a model. Suitable tyres were the main problem, along with chassis rigidity and directional vagueness, and Cocks fought it manfully for some seasons. The test article is another example of Dron's excellent writing skills.
Roger Lund

Classic Cars, September 1985 (finally remembered to look it up on our Index).

[Alan Cox]

Ted Walker has asked me to post this shot of Trevor Taylor from Brands Hatch Guards Trophy meeting 1965, showing the array of spoilers - including the unusual "mud flaps" ahead of the front wheels sported by this particular car which have been queried elsewhere on this thread.

[Odseybod]

Ted Walker has asked me to post this shot of Trevor Taylor from Brands Hatch Guards Trophy meeting 1965, showing the array of spoilers - including the unusual "mud flaps" ahead of the front wheels sported by this particular car which have been queried elsewhere on this thread.

Those scoops either side of the front air intakes do indeed suggest that the radiator (or front brakes?) needed some help with extra cooling air.

[Red Socks]

Ted Walker has asked me to post this shot of Trevor Taylor from Brands Hatch Guards Trophy meeting 1965, showing the array of spoilers - including the unusual "mud flaps" ahead of the front wheels sported by this particular car which have been queried elsewhere on this thread.

I hate to be picky but the white car in post 241 does not look like this car to me.

Edited by Red Socks, 10 August 2010 - 11:53.

[Ted Walker]

The photo that Alan kindly posted for me showing the JCB Lotus 30 clearly shows the the PERIOD proof that these devices were fitted to help make the car more stable.Rather than all these negative and uniformed comments that seem to be creeping in ,it would be nice to receive positive comments on a restoration that took over 4 years and brings back an interesting addition to the "big banger" class

[Giraffe]

Get it sorted & Matthew can blitz the Gold Cup with it, Ted!

[bradbury west]

The photo that Alan kindly posted for me showing the JCB Lotus 30 clearly shows the the PERIOD proof that these devices were fitted to help make the car more stable.Rather than all these negative and uniformed comments that seem to be creeping in ,it would be nice to receive positive comments on a restoration that took over 4 years and brings back an interesting addition to the "big banger" class

I applaud the efforts of anyone who puts that effort into restoring a car.
However, far from making uninformed remarks, i was making every effort to clarify the position, qv my mention of the JCB car, a copy of the track test of which by John Blunsden in Motor racing appears in the same Gold Portfolio book, and was carried out at Brands the day after Taylor's retirement in the Guards International Trophy Race on Aug 30. Martin Krejci has it listed as a British Sports Car race, not an International. It might just have been a way of bigging up (sic), the traditional headline race on Bank Holiday. Was the race run to full FIA Int specification?

There are many races in Europe or elsewhere for which owners here have tried to claim international provenance for their cars, when they were simply in a supporting race at an International meeting, not the same thing at all AFAIK. You will be as aware of this syndrome as anyone , Ted.

The JCB car as raced by Taylor was radically re-worked, - the full tech stuff is in Blunsden's article- but the front opening is different, the bib spoiler is far, far shallower, the mud flaps seem shallower and wider, and the car had huge "mouths" on each end of the 2 openings, as in Ted's picture. It also had a deeper tail section, Kamm-like in the Dron Cocks car test.

If it is a case of identifying a moment in time for spec of a car, which I believe it is for the HTP thing, it should be a full JCB version on correct rims, dual split radiator etc etc per spec., or a plain Lotus 30. It seems unethical to want to cherry pick the spec to suit especially as others seem to have to knit steam to prove their correctness, or is historic racing just club racing?.

I welcome additions to historic racing grids, but all I did was ask for details of the car.

If anyone wants a scan of the MR test I will be pleased to do so, but must respect Blunsden's copyright

Roger Lund

[Ted Walker]

I think that the front of the programme saying "THE GUARDS INTERNATIONAL TROPHY" for Sports cars complying with Appendix C of the International Sporting code 1965. With an entry of 34 cars plus reseves.Drivers including Clark,Spence McLaren, Parkes, Piper, Gurney, Hansgen might make it an International race !!!!!!

[Red Socks]

It seems that aero development is not regarded as ''non historic'' in some quarters. The cars running with the Masters and TGP F1 series plus sports cars all over seem to think that wings,spoilers etc are free. I don't think they are and completely agree with the above comments; the Lotus 30 aero bears no resemblance to what existed in period, and pace Ted proving it was done in principaland then doing something completely different for me is not historic-in fact it isn't even old.
Todays wind tunnels have nothng to do with 'Historic 'motor sport; except that sadly they are clearly playing a major part.

[icarus]

It seems that aero development is not regarded as ''non historic'' in some quarters. The cars running with the Masters and TGP F1 series plus sports cars all over seem to think that wings,spoilers etc are free. I don't think they are and completely agree with the above comments; the Lotus 30 aero bears no resemblance to what existed in period, and pace Ted proving it was done in principaland then doing something completely different for me is not historic-in fact it isn't even old.
Todays wind tunnels have nothng to do with 'Historic 'motor sport; except that sadly they are clearly playing a major part.

What nonsense,the nearest any of these Sportsracers get to a windtunnel is in a transporter on the A5 past Atherstone! Instead of sitting in your armchair making snippy comments why not give this team some credit for making a great job of a very difficult restoration?

[timnevinson]

just a quick interlude to suggest that those who were dissappointed with the Silverstone Classic set their sights a little lower and wait a week or two. Bentley Drivers Club event at Silverstone was £10 and simply fantastic. OK I didn't see a Cosworth F1 car, but if I am paying £50 a day I want to see three or four V12 F1 cars and/or V12 sports racers. Three day eventing is for horses; if I can only pick one thoroughly entertaining well supported event each day, I'll stay at home, or better still go to a two day 60th Anniversarry event for £20 at Castle Combe. Once again no F1 but a fabulous programme of very entertaining races for proper classics with rather less money talking (or whinging). Jedward indeed. What are they thinking?

[Red Socks]

What nonsense,the nearest any of these Sportsracers get to a windtunnel is in a transporter on the A5 past Atherstone! Instead of sitting in your armchair making snippy comments why not give this team some credit for making a great job of a very difficult restoration?

Hmm, semantics really isn't it.The word restoration implies putting back together something that was; the question one or two of us is simply asking is to see a picture of the original -looking just like the restoration.
With regards to Brian Cocks' car it was the subject of some debate within the HSCC at the time he ran it , was generally acknowleged to have incorrect body work and I suspect had he not been chairman of the HSCC at the time the registrar in question would have ''had a few words''
I'm no Tony Dron but Brian let me do ten laps in the car at Silverstone on an HSCC test day and I have never driven anything as nasty before or since.

Edited by Red Socks, 11 August 2010 - 07:47.

[john ruston]

So they are trying to make what was a lousy Race Car into something it wasn't?
Its called development in Historics and a waste of money and time unless it is to make them more reliable.
Its a trend to the detriment of the old crocks racing movement.Next thing they will want is decent drivers because that's easiest way (and cheapest)to make cars go quicker .Youngish proper drivers rather than these 60/70 year old has beens .
It's interesting that someone sat down and must have said how these cars were undrivable in period how can we correct Chunkies mistakes.Spend a considerable amount of time ,effort and money to make something that isn't real and represents nothing.At least the changes to the car are obvious and not hidden as on many other racers..Most are silhouette racing.
Crazy.

[rwhitworth]

Better late than never, my photos from Saturday are here:

[bradbury west]

The car is claimed to be the David Prophet/ Gerry Ashmore car. I took Gerry over to see the car and he certainly did not recognise the spoilder on the front Pic shows Gerrry Ashmore with the car in the paddock.

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For those who might be interested, this fascinating car was the subject of a comprehensive history/restoration/test article by Ed McDonough in Vintage Racecar a month or two back with lots of photographs.
Roger Lund

[Giraffe]

I've heard a rumour that the Lotus is to have a lady behind the wheel at some point this coming season. Will that be a first for a Lotus 30?