3281 replies to this topic

[D.M.N.]

Maybe this famous Webber quote needs to be brought up again:

And Lights

Edited by D.M.N., 30 May 2010 - 19:28.

[bogi]

Where is dfsfsgh with webber's trollface picture

[Ruf]

It comes down to if one hates Mark or not, and that has clouded many people's judgment sadly..

I confess that I don't like Webber but today's poll has only one obvious and logical option.

[GhostR]

Algiersuari moved away from the racing line. Vettel towards it. Big difference.

The rulebook doesn't distinguish between moving away from, or towards, the racing line. It simply says that a driver should not change direction in such a way that causes an accident.

[Sakae]

Thats exactly what it represents.

Its' explained in my previous post; read it.

Diagram on the far right is incorrect, because it does not states what it represents. Closest what I can come up with is post collision configuration, but even that one is incorrect in car alignments; Seb was further ahead in relationship to his teammate.

Contact occurred because individual trajectories were on collision course, and neither of the drivers involved yielded to the other one. Again, stated now fourth time, find and watch video showing what Seb does with his steering wheel, which is NOTHING. Holding it on a straight line (gives or takes minor modulation, which is pretty normal).

Greatest deceiving pic that I see is, when you watch them from the front. Very deceiving what actually happened fraction of time just prior, which is, wheel entanglement.

[siberianlady]

Looks more like you are the one that is blind or how do you explain that Vettel is very close to the white line at the start of his crazy action and is somewhatz in the middle of the track on impact? Oh yeah Webber moved the track as well it seems........

[Henrytheeigth]

I confess that I don't like Webber but today's poll has only one obvious and logical option.

Sir, I salute you.

[Hairpin]

Of course it is, when fits your agenda....

Do you believe team orders does not exist? Do you believe in Santa Claus? The rule is stupid because everybody knows that it is broken by some team each race. Kimi would not have been a world champion without team orders for instance. That rule was made for one reason only: To force the teams to manage their orders better. A bit the same idea that led to the rule that the Safety Car should enter the pits if it is the last lap. The important thing is that it looks good.

It is nice to be an idealist and all that, but it is also quite good to be a realist while being idealistic because it is the reality that counts in present. Ideals can only change the future.

[Lazarus II]

It comes down to if one hates Mark or not, and that has clouded many people's judgment sadly..

I don't hate Webber, but I'm on record that the car is the real world beaters not the RBR drivers. I think they're both hamfisted cabbies.

[zergutmikael]

Perfect!

And now look where is racing line - the sign is a billboard with vodafone/panasonic ad:




As you can notice it's a little bit right.

Where was Webber?



He was clearly not on racing line. He pushed Vettel. F.cking idiot!

Edited by zergutmikael, 30 May 2010 - 19:34.

[Dalton007]

WEBBER definitely moved across which the media didn't pick up. It's pretty obvious why Vettel had to move right, because he would've been on the grass. Webber definitely at blame here.

This season is exciting. Wooohoooo.

[H2H]

I had only now the chance to review the situation. It seemed to me a very odd incident from the start so let us take out all the emotion and let us look through the eyes of the team and the drivers:

The Built-up:

The McLarens are very close or even slightly faster in some instances, Hamilton drives an agressive race while Button a bit more conservative. Webber and Vettel had to resist the pressure of Hamilton which came closer in S1 and S3 while he lost in S2. The speed advantage of the McLaren on the straight meant that a certain margin had to be conserved to avoid exposing yourself and F-duct overtake.

In the laps before number 40 Vettel with Hamilton on his tail gains consistently on Mark who lacks a bit of pace. The reason for was of course unknown, I imagined that he wanted to conserve his tyres better. Anyway he came closer and closer as did Lewis.


The incident

Due to the high fuel consumption Mark is forced to tune down his engine with Seb being very close and both pushed by Lewis. Seb was able to save 1 kg of fuel over Mark for whatever reasons and sees his chance. Out of the tow and with a more powerful engine mode he starts to overtake Mark on the dirty inside on the straight before the next sharp left turn. He is able to get ahead and starts to pull very slightly into the center to get out of the dirt and closer to the ideal line. Mark remains on his line, possibly not taking the usual best line for the next corner as it should be a lot more to the right. Seb's wheel makes contact with Mark's left side and he spins off with a damaged wheel, absolutely furious with Mark. Mark comes out wide and had to let the McLaren past and suffers from a broken front wing. The reaction of Seb is so far unique. He gets out and shows clearly that he thinks Mark did loose his head. Mark continues the race and is able to finish the race with no visible signs concerning the incident.


The reactions:

Horner:

The RAI showed a very interesting bit before they could interview him. A guy beside him shows with his hands the cars and the movement made by Seb. Horner answers something and shows the with the Index of the left hand (Seb) that the left car was in front of the right one. This was a private discussion, so it could show his personal and not his official opinion.

"We now have all the facts," he said. "Mark had changed down into a fuel saving mode that cost him a little bit of performance on the straights, which also explains how Sebastian got a very clear run on him.

"The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel.

This would fit neatly with that little movement of his.

"I think Mark put Sebastian on the dirty side, gave him just enough room and Sebastian came across obviously quite aggressively - but he was quite a long way down the side."


Marko has also his say:

Marko says Vettel was allowed to attack Webber because there was no option to back him off – as Lewis Hamilton was right behind the Red Bull Racing drivers.

"It wasn't a situation where we were racing each other," said Marko. "We were under enormous pressure from the McLarens – they were much faster on the straights so we had to gain our advantage in the corners.

So it seems to have been one of those situations in which the team allowed a move by the driver behind. Seb dived in and came out ahead and very slightly turned in - expecting Mark to give under the specific circumstances way. Mark did not move from his line to the normal one, but seemed to have had the intention to keep Seb on the dirty side, so that he could get ahead of him in the next turn.

"He [Vettel] was under a lot of pressure from Hamilton behind, which got him into a position to pass Mark. Our priority at that stage is that we want to win the race. Even if the cars wanted to change position we were still first and second, and it is still 43 points for the team and both drivers were pulling away from McLaren in the championship."

This would explain the rather unique fury of Seb. Basically he felt that he had according to the standard rules of the team the right to make under such conditions a move, came out ahead and was then thrown out by a teammate out of the ideal line who didn't follow the orders that the driver behind should give room to the one with Mark of course might have been suprised and angered that Seb attacked right when he was vulnerable and wanted to keep his position, and drove a fighting line without giving room. He might simply have thought that he could have defended his place by keeping Seb on the dirt and not allowing him to turn inside to get into the usual breaking point of the next turn.

Both lost, Mark less, Seb more.



H2H

Edited by H2H, 30 May 2010 - 19:35.

[Henrytheeigth]

I don't hate Webber, but I'm on record that the car is the real world beaters not the RBR drivers. I think they're both hamfisted cabbies.

Oh duh mate haha that's why Massa aint a Bahrain nor Turkey master anymore, coz he aint in a world beating car, so no use in picking on em mate

[Menace]

Sir, I salute you.

Contrary to the popular belief, I am neither a Vettel fan-boy or a Mark hater... and yet I see more blame on Webber's actions.

Go figure, I leave the name calling to you guys (fastlegs), and let the mods deal with it.

Enjoy your Sunday!

[williams96]

Perfect!

And now look where is racing line - the sign is a billboard with vodafone ad:




As you can notice it's a little bit right.

Where was Webber?



F.cking idiot!

Then why didn't Seb go to the right instead of trying on the left?

Edited by williams96, 30 May 2010 - 19:34.

[F575 GTC]

Some of the comments in this thread are fantastic, it's like people where watching their own different race and made up their own incidents!

[jesee]

Vettel has issues to sort out. He makes too many crazy mistakes.

Look here



http://www.youtube.c...feature=related




I think he needs to grow up and i will paraphrase what Webber said in 2007 after he was taken out by him

“It’s kids isn’t it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they **** it all up.”

[fastlegs]

Your Honor, Mr. Webber's defense rests its case

It's truly unbelievable to me that someone (who isn't a troll) could of watched this incident and thought Webber was in the wrong.

[Henrytheeigth]

Enjoy your Sunday!

Hehe no need for name calling in my view, and have a good Monday morning to who else is having it like I am lol

[Lights]

Looks more like you are the one that is blind or how do you explain that Vettel is very close to the white line at the start of his crazy action and is somewhatz in the middle of the track on impact? Oh yeah Webber moved the track as well it seems........

Yes, he did indeed, to the right side, he did not move towards Vettel, and it was no problem until Vettel started to move too much in a too short period of time which Webber could not respond to.

[Anomnader]

Lewis said Vettel did the same dangerous move on him today?

Would that being at the start or latter on?

[zergutmikael]

Webber even couldn't brake right because he wasn't on the race line that's why he had an off run.

[Seanspeed]

Perfect!

And now look where is racing line - the sign is a billboard with vodafone/panasonic ad:


As you can notice it's a little bit right.

Where was Webber?

He was clearly not on racing line. He pushed Vettel. F.cking idiot!

Vettel was even further off the racing line. Whats your point?

[gaston_foix]

He suddenly turn right and Webber didn't had time to respond. Clearly Vettel is to blame. And he got what he deserved....

[Lights]

Perfect!

And now look where is racing line - the sign is a billboard with vodafone/panasonic ad:




As you can notice it's a little bit right.

Where was Webber?



He was clearly not on racing line. He pushed Vettel. F.cking idiot!

Vettel chose to go to the left of Webber himself. He had that option when he was behind Webber, and he chose the left.

[Henrytheeigth]

Webber even couldn't brake right because he wasn't on the race line that's why he had an off run.

Oh duh he just had a car smash into him!

[Sakae]

Your Honor, Mr. Webber's defense rests its case

Are you claiming that Vettel' front wheels are directed into Webber's car? I don't get your point, if there is one at all. Manipulating facts doesn't changes anything on result.

My conclusion is, that it was a preventable racing accident.

Assignment of responsibilities:
1. Vettel - guiloty of racing.
2. Webber - guiloty of not reading situation correctly, and steering the pot wrong way.

[beute]

it's a long distance where vettel slightly drifts to the right. I like it how people claim that he sharply turned right into webber.
just proves me that there wasnt enought room. to do anything, for example, to react...

but as long people interpret that "enough room" is just a car width....
he didnt even have to drift that far to the right, the wheels touched not just a little bit, but the whole profile of vettels car touched the whole profile of webber tire.

it would've even be enough to touch just half of the tire to create a spin.

[Anssi]

Maybe some people need to stop posting today and come back tomorrow. It's embarrassing for all involved to see some people continue to insist it was Webber's fault.

Two cars drive straight alongside each other. One moves to touch the other car.

There was an excellent replay of it on one television channel and it showed very clearly that Vettel moved right to touch Webber's car. It makes absolutely no sense to claim Webber is somehow to blame for the contact.

It's Webber's job to race and not to let people by. By moving to the left he used the option the regulations book gives him - one defensive move. That's fair.

What's not fair is ignoring the fact that you have another car alongside you going straight and then turning in on that car.

[Menace]

Lewis said Vettel did the same dangerous move on him today?

Would that being at the start or latter on?

I am of the opinion, that Lewis is very good at trying to play mind games.

[Lazarus II]

Oh duh mate haha that's why Massa aint a Bahrain nor Turkey master anymore, coz he aint in a world beating car, so no use in picking on em mate

I'm not picking on them, I just don't think they are the 'world beaters' that some believe they are. I give credit where credit is due; they are (the best of THEIR ability) taking advantage of the RB6's clear superiority. If a more talented driver was in the RB6, I think it would be game, set, match for this entire season.

I'm no big Alonso fan, but I'm not going to say he isn't one of the top F1 drivers either; same as Schumacher. Just my opinion, but if you gave Hamilton/Alonso/Schumacher (in his prime) a car as superior as the RB6 it would be all over except the crying.

[bond]

It's truly unbelievable to me that someone (who isn't a troll) could of watched this incident and thought Webber was in the wrong.

[RedBaron]

You can see in those frames Vettel turns right easily enough to run into Webber. This is racing, who cars where the optimal racing line is. These are cars, not trains... they are allowed to move within the race track

[bond]

Lewis said Vettel did the same dangerous move on him today?

Would that being at the start or latter on?

Start...

[Massa_f1]

He suddenly turn right and Webber didn't had time to respond. Clearly Vettel is to blame. And he got what he deserved....

Exactly what is Mark suposed to do Vettel was not yet past him so would not expect him turning in so soon. Vettel turned in Webber was still there racing and rightly so.

[Lights]

The thing some people don't understand here is that Webber has every right in the world to keep driving on the line he was on.

There is no rule saying Webber has to either:

A: Drive on the racing line.
B: Give Vettel more tarmac than physically necessary.

Vettel turned into him. It's as clear as that.

I can not understand how people do not realize this.

[Henrytheeigth]

I'm not picking on them, I just don't think they are the 'world beaters' that some believe they are. I give credit where credit is due; they are (the best of THEIR ability) taking advantage of the RB6's clear superiority. If a more talented driver was in the RB6, I think it would be game, set, match for this entire season.

I'm no big Alonso fan, but I'm not going to say he isn't one of the top F1 drivers either; same as Schumacher. Just my opinion, but if you gave Hamilton/Alonso/Schumacher (in his prime) a car as superior as the RB6 it would be all over except the crying.

Well game set match if no reliability issues don't forget. Of course they are no Senna nor MS but Mark is the only Aussie in F1 and points leader so how can I not be proud!

[Ruf]

Are you claiming that Vettel' front wheels are directed into Webber's car? I don't get your point, if there is one at all. Manipulating facts doesn't changes anything on result.

My conclusion is, that it was a preventable racing accident.

Assignment of responsibilities:
1. Vettel - guiloty of racing.
2. Webber - guiloty of not reading situation correctly, and steering the pot wrong way.

Off with their heads then. Both of them. Ask questions later...

Edited by Ruf, 30 May 2010 - 19:41.

[williams96]

Webber even couldn't brake right because he wasn't on the race line that's why he had an off run.

This is absurd. He steered right to go off the track after the incident and this was most probably to avoid Vettel's car.

[Anssi]

As an example, Robert Kubica praised Kimi for their battle at 2008 in Fuji. Both of them gave each other room and they did not bang wheels. It was tough but fair racing. Giving the other driver just enough room to stay on the track is tough but fair!

[zergutmikael]

Oh duh he just had a car smash into him!

And what? He still pushed throttle after incident?

[MaxisOne]

Mark Webber is really a wile fox and a true member of the piranha club. He couldn't have won this race, his pace after the pit stop wasn't good enough compared to Vettel and Hamilton. But instead of losing the race, he:
- forced team-mate and and championship rival into an embarrassing mistake;
- got 15 points lead over him instead of losing bunch of points and stayed in the championship lead;
- exposed Helmut Marko's golden boy as careless and irresponsible driver in front of the whole team;
- won sympathy of the majority of the paddock and the public.

The blow was so big that some Vettel's fans here are having permanent problems with their vision while watching replays.

Boy, this is getting interesting.

Sad and brilliant by Webbo

Not a red bull fan for sure but I wouldnt have minded Mark getting the champ this year instead of that finger pointing rank amateur.

[Seanspeed]

Are you claiming that Vettel' front wheels are directed into Webber's car?

You probably sat there looking at those pictures for a good while thinking of a way to dismiss it(you know you did!), and THIS is all you came up with?

[Henrytheeigth]

Haha at that guillotine pic!

And what? He still pushed throttle after incident?

He had to try and defend from McLarens after Vettools brain fade, but of course that was to no avail.

[KnucklesAgain]

The real culprit in all of this - Horner. Anyone could see how this would end. He tells Webber to slow (fuel save mode) and lets Vettel carry on unabated and then is surprised at the outcome Hello...McFly anyone home? two competitve type-A personalities and you couldn't see this coming

Horner: We could see it coming

[zergutmikael]

Vettel was even further off the racing line. Whats your point?

Webber pushed Vettel. That's why he wasn't on racing line. He pushed to make a collsion or Vettel should brake earlier because of dirty trajectory and Webber could pass him back. If he kept racing line Vetter would easily pass him and they both bring home 1-2. Vettel was quicker and was ahead. Webber is just a moron.

[Gareth]

I have run both vectors for both cars on my screen, and subsequently concluded, that they would collide if no one yield, because they weren't parallel. Since Vettel was on track periphery, Webber was the one who could yield and letting both to stay on the track. I could not estimate at which distance, especially when a turn was ahead. This is why I think he should have tapered to the right.

I did not see Vettel turning into Webber; I am sorry, but it's simple as that. There are snapshots of Seb approaching on Mark's left, then you see Mark has free road ahead, then all over sudden Vettel has his nose ahead.

Horner: "Sebastian came across obviously quite aggressively"

Which is a pretty massive hole in your version of events. Unless you are going to attempt to claim that Horner is telling a lie here, despite having telemetary access and clearly being in defend Vettel mode.

Too many unanswered questions, but one thing is certain, Webber could know who is his team-mate, and he could also know that you should try to avoid collission with him. Has he really tried? You tell me, because I didn't detect any effort on his part.

Can we agree that Vettel should equally know who his team mate is and try to avoid a collision?

Because it is clear to me that in going in a straight line, Mark did more to avoid a collision than Vettel who veered to the right (in Horner's words) quite aggressively.

[knutspeed]

As a racer at a somewhat lower level, but nonetheless a competitor, and not rooting for one of the drivers in particular - here's how I see it:

- For some reason Seb gets better speed down the straight
- Mark sees this, and thinks "OK, if he wants to pass, he'll have to work for it" - and gives just enough room so Seb will have a rotten entry/exit at the next bend, with the possibility of grabbing the spot back. Textbook stuff.
- Seb wants to get back on top in the "who's-the-boss-mind-game", and decides to give MW a little weave (quite the norm in F1 these days)
- Mark either 1) doesn't react fast enough or 2) wants to prove he's not intimidated and holds his line, or 3) SEB accidently misjudges everything and tries to take his line prematurely, no bullying factor
- Wallop, spin, screech, and thank Gum it all went so well, relatively speaking

IMO: a normal racing incident, except for MWs car suddenly becoming a Renault Kangoo.

[Dalton007]

Maybe some people need to stop posting today and come back tomorrow. It's embarrassing for all involved to see some people continue to insist it was Webber's fault.

Two cars drive straight alongside each other. One moves to touch the other car.

There was an excellent replay of it on one television channel and it showed very clearly that Vettel moved right to touch Webber's car. It makes absolutely no sense to claim Webber is somehow to blame for the contact.

It's Webber's job to race and not to let people by. By moving to the left he used the option the regulations book gives him - one defensive move. That's fair.

What's not fair is ignoring the fact that you have another car alongside you going straight and then turning in on that car.

You clearly didn't see Webber jinx left. Watch the long replay again, Webber squeezes Vettel FIRST.

[Sakae]

Looks more like you are the one that is blind or how do you explain that Vettel is very close to the white line at the start of his crazy action and is somewhatz in the middle of the track on impact? Oh yeah Webber moved the track as well it seems........

Wouldn't you agree that in pic no. 2 from the top indicates sufficiently that Webber could have full knowledge at that point Seb's whereabouts, and realise that (a) he has more speed which he will carry through, (b) Seb is not going to back off, and © approaching next turn, Seb might need more space to manage the overtaking manouver without wipe out?

Or, what was on Mr. Webber's mind at that moment?