3281 replies to this topic

[JSDSKI]

They are not. Read the news also, not everything is here on the forum They blame both drivers, just like me.

And their judgment is wrong.


to: nordschleife -

Your post is very interesting but leaves out one obvious fact. One that does not rely upon communication from engineers and team managers. Vettel blew the pass. That's all that happened. Webber had placed him in box. Vettel couldn't brake on the dirty side and he couldn't get to the proper braking zone. So, he chopped Webber. But couldn't run through him. They should both thank their lucky stars it wasn't in the 60's or 70's....

Edited by JSDSKI, 01 June 2010 - 22:36.

[NightProwler]

Mark turned into Vettel.

60 pages of undeniable evidence and now some are trying to create alternative realities.

[NightProwler]

Vettel hasn't been silent - he is just not speaking where you are looking and possibly not in your language. Go to Sebastianvettle.com. He ends off the same way, being positive and looking toward the future. And believe me, people can put a poor spin on the fact that Mark has been babbling nonstop to anyone who will listen. My point - this is not a means of judging a championship attitude. (OT, personally Kimi was my interview hero - In general: say nothing at all. When your back is against the wall and you are forced to speak, keep your sentences to 5 or 6 words - referring the journos to others for more information, lol...that used to crack me up so much. God I miss those days... Mika when he went with the exaggerated nonsensical replies was a close second.)

Babbling non-stop?

All his comments have been coming from videos on Red Bull. com which is he obligated to provide for them.

Some come from a column he has in an Australian newspaper which he is also olbligated to write and would be pretty stupid not to write anything about the incident.

So thats 1 comment each from a source outside of Red Bull..... Hardly babbling.

[nordschleife]

Vettel blew the pass. That's all that happened. Webber had placed him in box. Vettel couldn't brake on the dirty side and he couldn't get to the proper braking zone. So, he chopped Webber. But couldn't run through him.

I see it this way. The sharp movement to the right that Vettel's car makes (that has stuck in everyone's mind as shocking and dumb) was not his intention. That occurred due to the pivoting of his car after its right rear contacts Mark's left front. As I stated in post #2301 that only happened as a result of both drivers allowing it to happen.

I don't think anyone believes that Vettel thought he was far enough ahead of Mark that he could execute a chop even if you define that as taking off the other guy's front wing. So this doesn't rise to the level of completing a pass or giving a chop.

I think Vettel's right turning movement prior to contact wasn't sharp and wasn't intended, necessarily, to surprise Webber but rather to push against his box, bump it even. But he either didn't factor in the interlocking wheels risk or he left that problem to Webber to manage. Which is pretty dumb, considering it's Mark Webber we're talking about here.

[VresiBerba]

Of course. There should also be peace in the world and everybody should be treated fair and equal.

Sorry, this is not a political or a philosophical discussion so there is no use sticking the head into a fairytale and use arguments valid only there. In the real world we use real money, we get hurt and we make decision that is selfish. The more money you have, the more selfish you can be. Neither Vettel or Webber are rich enough to call the shots here.

What the hell are you on about. There are two things at stake here, two championships and if you strike off one of them by not letting the drivers compete, you might as well not turn up at all. This has nothing to do with philosophy, it has to do with sporting competition.

[Dragonfly]

I see it this way. The sharp movement to the right that Vettel's car makes (that has stuck in everyone's mind as shocking and dumb) was not his intention. That occurred due to the pivoting of his car after its right rear contacts Mark's left front. As I stated in post #2301 that only happened as a result of both drivers allowing it to happen.

I don't think anyone believes that Vettel thought he was far enough ahead of Mark that he could execute a chop even if you define that as taking off the other guy's front wing. So this doesn't rise to the level of completing a pass or giving a chop.

I think Vettel's right turning movement prior to contact wasn't sharp and wasn't intended, necessarily, to surprise Webber but rather to push against his box, bump it even. But he either didn't factor in the interlocking wheels risk or he left that problem to Webber to manage. Which is pretty dumb, considering it's Mark Webber we're talking about here.

One of the very few sensible views on the sequence of events.
I tried several times to explain that what seems visibly as a chop is in fact Vettel's car becoming uncontrollable due to the hit on his right rear and the resulting asymmetric force.

Edited by Dragonfly, 01 June 2010 - 23:32.

[canman]

.... Vettel has more speed so he's utterly committed to passing in whatever space there is.

Most racers would call that a "Banzai" or "Kamakazi" move. not a sensible move for a championship contender.

..... Sideways contact isn't an unreasonable option.

.. I dont think the FIA or many others would agree with that !

..... One problem, though. Speed differential between interlocked wheels is. Because Vettel left the management of that risk up to the other guy he has accepted whatever may ensue.

And who exactly had caused the wheels to become interlocked at this point ?? ..Again a "reckless" manoeuvre. !

.....Webber is unwilling to anticipate the tires touching in spite of Vettel's right rear tire clearly approaching his left front inches in front of his face.

... Actually he did anticipate the contact. ..you may notice that Webbers steering wheel is turned to the right already before the tyres make contact !!
In real time , this happened so suddenly i am surprised Webber had time to react at all.


Vettel always had the sensible option to "back off" and abort the pass ( they were not in the braking zone yet).. once he realised that Webber had not got the message to let him through. But no, Vettel chose another low percentage option of trying to force the pass. a wiser driver ( actually everyone else on the planet !) would have known that was not going to work with Webber, especially when he was in P1 and headed for a hat trick of wins !
Stupid, reckless move by Vettel who is not prepared to admit his mistake, and worse, tries to lay the blame on his team mate ! ... schoolyard attitude !!

I hope Red Bull are aware they will blow much of their supporter base by "spinning" a bullshit line to protect Vettel. It does thier reputation and more importantly to them, their "Image" no good at all !....

[MikeTekRacing]

One of the very few sensible views on the sequence of events.
I tried several times to explain that what seems visibly as a chop is in fact Vettel's car becoming uncontrollable due to the hit on his right rear and the resulting asymmetric force.

that's obvious mate, but you don't explain why he is SLOWLY moving into webber's car when he had room to spare on the left.
i understand he wanted a better line but there was a fu#$ing car between him and the line and you can't expect that car to vanish

[KnucklesAgain]

I see it this way. The sharp movement to the right that Vettel's car makes (that has stuck in everyone's mind as shocking and dumb) was not his intention. That occurred due to the pivoting of his car after its right rear contacts Mark's left front. As I stated in post #2301 that only happened as a result of both drivers allowing it to happen.

I don't think anyone believes that Vettel thought he was far enough ahead of Mark that he could execute a chop even if you define that as taking off the other guy's front wing. So this doesn't rise to the level of completing a pass or giving a chop.

I think Vettel's right turning movement prior to contact wasn't sharp and wasn't intended, necessarily, to surprise Webber but rather to push against his box, bump it even. But he either didn't factor in the interlocking wheels risk or he left that problem to Webber to manage. Which is pretty dumb, considering it's Mark Webber we're talking about here.

Great posts

[canman]

I see it this way. The sharp movement to the right that Vettel's car makes (that has stuck in everyone's mind as shocking and dumb) was not his intention. That occurred due to the pivoting of his car after its right rear contacts Mark's left front. .....

Stop confusing what happened AFTER the contact, with what caused the contact.

.....I think Vettel's right turning movement prior to contact wasn't sharp and wasn't intended, necessarily, to surprise Webber but rather to push against his box, bump it even. .....

You need to watch the video again ..in real time, not slow mo, then tell us it was not a sharp , sudden, right "jink" that no driver in Webbers position could reasonably be expected to react to quickly enough to avoid contact..
So you are saying that Vettel probably intended to "bump" Webber ??? if so , I am surprised the Race Stewards did not comment or follow up on this.

Edited by canman, 01 June 2010 - 23:44.

[KnucklesAgain]

that's obvious mate, but you don't explain why he is SLOWLY moving into webber's car when he had room to spare on the left.
i understand he wanted a better line but there was a fu#$ing car between him and the line and you can't expect that car to vanish

For the same reason that at the start of the manoeuvre, Webber was slowly moving left into Vettel's car when he had room to spare on the right. To inch the other guy into the direction they wanted them in. Again, as I wrote earlier, the videos show that both move, and both react, until they **** it up because it has become too tight. At least that's what I see.

[Buttoneer]

They are not. Read the news also, not everything is here on the forum They blame both drivers, just like me.

I think it would be fair to say that Webber could have given him more room, but it was not incumbent upon him to give more than a cars width, which he did. Webber is pretty ungracious generally in the car; surely Vettel knew this?

(on the other hand, Webber knows Vettel has a twitch in his right arm which pulls his hand down in stressful situations I suppose )

[KnucklesAgain]

..... Sideways contact isn't an unreasonable option.

.. I dont think the FIA or many others would agree with that !

Button and Hamilton touched each other too, and were hailed as the pinnacle of "how it is done".

[Frank Tuesday]

that's obvious mate, but you don't explain why he is SLOWLY moving into webber's car when he had room to spare on the left.
i understand he wanted a better line but there was a fu#$ing car between him and the line and you can't expect that car to vanish

The same reason that Webber pushed Vettel to the left of the track even though Webber had plenty of room on the right.

[EVO2]

I hope Red Bull are aware they will blow much of their supporter base by "spinning" a bullshit line to protect Vettel. It does their reputation and more importantly to them, their "Image" no good at all !

Exactly what they have done by insisting that it was both drivers' fault.

Webber must be furious, and rightly so !

[JSDSKI]

....The sharp movement to the right that Vettel's car makes (that has stuck in everyone's mind as shocking and dumb) was not his intention. That occurred due to the pivoting of his car after its right rear contacts Mark's left front....

Here's where we disagree. The movement to the right is simply Vettel moving to the right - trying to chop Webber. This is not as a result of the contact - IT INITIATED THE CONTACT.

Running into Webber is why Vettel's car pivots. Vettel was focused on getting off the dirty side of the track. Getting out of the box. He moved to the right and found Webber in the space he wanted. Vettel's error.

[Ian G]

This is what I suspect too. Playing hard ball very close to each other in a moment they did simultaneously a tiny steering correction but unfortunately against each other, which summed up in those ~20 cm overlap and their wheels interlocked.

P.S. I have no practical experience but I think those cars do not go like on rails at 300+

It was mentioned early on in one of the threads and whilst stating the bleeding obvious there are lots of forces at work when the cars get that close at speed that will contribute to making both cars unstable,although Vettel hit Webber both drivers should have given each othe more room,particulary Vettel,he was going to pass Webber no matter what and paid the penalty.

[Kucki]

Vettel hasn't been silent - he is just not speaking where you are looking and possibly not in your language. Go to Sebastianvettle.com. He ends off the same way, being positive and looking toward the future. And believe me, people can put a poor spin on the fact that Mark has been babbling nonstop to anyone who will listen. My point - this is not a means of judging a championship attitude. (OT, personally Kimi was my interview hero - In general: say nothing at all. When your back is against the wall and you are forced to speak, keep your sentences to 5 or 6 words - referring the journos to others for more information, lol...that used to crack me up so much. God I miss those days... Mika when he went with the exaggerated nonsensical replies was a close second.)

Yeah and glad Kimi is gone. He was like a robot. Imagine a whole grid of robots like Kimi. We need people in F1 with character like Vettel and Webber

Edited by Kucki, 02 June 2010 - 00:09.

[Hairpin]

It was mentioned early on in one of the threads and whilst stating the bleeding obvious there are lots of forces at work when the cars get that close at speed that will contribute to making both cars unstable,although Vettel hit Webber both drivers should have given each othe more room,particulary Vettel,he was going to pass Webber no matter what and paid the penalty.

Problem for Vettel was that he did not have any room to give, he did not have enough to brake even, and therefore he tried to "grab" some space. Webber did not want to give any. Also it must be remembered that when Vettel dived in on the inside there was actually more space, approximately 120-150cm, but Webber closed that down to around 20cm before opening slightly (or if the track widened as some say). Might have been stupid by Vettel to try to pass when so little space was available, but as soon as he started he had not many alternatives. He could have lifted off completely and been passed by Hamilton, but he did not do that. Instead he turned right far too abruptly, obviously thinking Mark was no longer there.

[Hairpin]

Can we stop with the black & white painting? The videos show clearly, I think, that starting from the point where Vettel sticks his nose into the gap left of Webber, and all along the whole straight, they both turned into each other at various points. First Webber squeezes Vettel to the left, then Vettel twitches right twice. The other driver in each instance reacts a bit. Then finally there is some kind of misunderstanding and they collide.

That

[Ian G]

Team orders are banned, but that does not mean they do not exist. As I stated before - 39.1 is not a rule that can be enforced and it is there in spite of everyone, including the FiA, knows that the rule actually say "If you apply team orders during the race, make it look nice". The contract never "stops acting" and if Webber thought it did, he knows better now.

Yeah,the instruction to Button to go to "Fuel Save" mode after his little run at a slowing Hamilton,apparently the McLarens were already in "Fuel saving" mode and had been for several laps.

[demoing]

No, not wrong in that sense, wrong to squeeze people off the track (not just Vet). Vet did it to Hami and I said it was just as wrong. He hasn't gone on to make a habit of it, and if he does, I'll re evluate. It provokes inane responses as has been shown. Same when Schumi did it and others. I don't buy into the holding a line crap, WDCs have been won without that tactic so u know, quite obviously there is more than 1 line (to put it simplistically) . Everyone does stuff ocassionally, I don't refer to that - I speak in terms of constant behavior. I respect you and others may see it differently, but that is how I see it.

The problem is Vettel is getting into the habit of doing that same move more and more
in just the last few races he has jinked on at least 4 occasions and that's without even keeping an eye open for such moves (two of which have hurt his team mate)
as for Webber not moving he did not have time to react if you watch the videos there was only a split second from when Vettel had his brain fade to when he hit webber.
But then again the rules are clear a driver is perfectly within his right to drive in a straight line down the track its the job of both drivers not to hit each other but its not the job of a driver who is driving straight down the track to move out of the way if one driver tries to pressure them, however it is the job of the driver who pressures to not hit the other car, and i would think you would agree that is how it should be unfortunately vettel got it wrong and failed to ensure no matter how much pressure you apply you don't hit the other car.
Somehow i think Vettel is the one now clarifying the rules and that the drivers will be talking about outlawing jinking as clearly that more dangerous than weaving in front of a car.

Edited by demoing, 02 June 2010 - 00:19.

[Sakae]

It was mentioned early on in one of the threads and whilst stating the bleeding obvious there are lots of forces at work when the cars get that close at speed that will contribute to making both cars unstable,although Vettel hit Webber both drivers should have given each othe more room,particulary Vettel,he was going to pass Webber no matter what and paid the penalty.

This is precisely why I have problem with Webber. He should know better, and mittigate the risk by not being as close to the left (he blocked right side first). How close he too was to DNF? It's incorrect to say as some do, that he didn't know where Seb was, and he had time to act sensibly.

Edited by Sakae, 02 June 2010 - 00:23.

[hotstickyslick]

That

Incredibly unreasonable. You can't expect Webber to keep the steering wheel perfectly straight.

@Sakae

Well what do you know, racing is risking isn't it? Webber made it hard for Vettel to pass him as he is entitled to, Vettel was the one who initiated the contact, so it's a moot point.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 02 June 2010 - 00:24.

[Dragonfly]

that's obvious mate, but you don't explain why he is SLOWLY moving into webber's car when he had room to spare on the left.
i understand he wanted a better line but there was a fu#$ing car between him and the line and you can't expect that car to vanish

The same reason that Webber pushed Vettel to the left of the track even though Webber had plenty of room on the right.

Thank you for providing the answer.
My version was "For the same reason Webber crowded him towards the edge of the track, if we use the terminology in the rules."
IMHO once being with his cockpit leveled or slightly in front of Webber's car nose, Vettel had no less right to claim a bit more space for himself. And it's the responsibility of the one, who's behind and has a full view of the dispositions of the cars to stop driving in straight line and ensure there's no crash.
Although Vettels move may be a tad earlier, I am on the opinion that it's more Webber's fault, because practically he already lost his right to block and while clearly seeing the situation, did nothing to provide sufficient separation between the cars. Remember, the cars are doing around 83-85 metres per second at that speed. Human reactions are not quick enough if there is no space between them.

A bit OT: I've been thinking when 2 cars travel side by side at about 300 km/h, is there the aerodynamic effect, which results in lower pressure in the airflow between them and generates a force which pushes them towards each other.

[Sakae]

Incredibly unreasonable. You can't expect Webber to keep the steering wheel perfectly straight.

@Sakae

Well what do you know, racing is risking isn't it? Webber made it hard for Vettel to pass him as he is entitled to, Vettel was the one who initiated the contact, so it's a moot point.

Being right is one thing. Being smart another. Had wheel entanglement took them both out, would anyone be happy as compared to finishing second, and than have talk behind closed door with Seb, his manager, and a team.

[hotstickyslick]

Being right is one thing. Being smart another. Had wheel entanglement took them both out, would anyone be happy as compared to finishing second, and than have talk behind closed door with Seb, his manager, and a team.

Was Vettel smart going for the inside line even though it has less grip for braking?

[Hairpin]

Incredibly unreasonable. You can't expect Webber to keep the steering wheel perfectly straight.

Own goal there. That is why he should have left more space. There was no margins for error and then there was an error.

[Ian G]

... Had wheel entanglement took them both out, would anyone be happy as compared to finishing second.....,

Exactly..it was only luck that prevented it happening,or worse Sebs(or Marks) car becoming airborne over Marks wheel with possible tragic results at that speed,Vettel should have been content with 2nd in the first place,it was the RB pitwall stuffing it up yet again,secondly Vettel should have backed off instead of trying to shepard mark out of the way,it was an accident waiting to happen.

[David M. Kane]

It's Webber job to make it as tough as possible.

[hotstickyslick]

Own goal there. That is why he should have left more space. There was no margins for error and then there was an error.

So he wasn't perfect to the nearest millimeter? What about Vettel? He seemed to have moved a good couple of feet to the right at least?

Totally unreasonable.

[Hairpin]

Exactly..it was only luck that prevented it happening,or worse Sebs(or Marks) car becoming airborne over Marks wheel with possible tragic results at that speed,Vettel should have been content with 2nd in the first place,it was the RB pitwall stuffing it up yet again,secondly Vettel should have backed off instead of trying to shepard mark out of the way,it was an accident waiting to happen.

Well, Vettel manage to do 8/10 of his pass so I do not think it is reasonable to expect him to back off.

What would have been interesting to see is what would have happened if Vettel had not twitched right. Braking point was awfully close there and as soon as you arrive there you can not move no more and both would have been quite eager to out brake the other. On the dirty side with no space between them. I do agree with the RBR official statement "rookie mistake by both drivers" because the whole sequence was an accident waiting to happen and it happened just a bit sooner than expected.

Edited by Hairpin, 02 June 2010 - 00:54.

[Hairpin]

So he wasn't perfect to the nearest millimeter? What about Vettel? He seemed to have moved a good couple of feet to the right at least?

Totally unreasonable.

Both man, BOTH. I repeat BOTH drivers made a mistake. What kind of a mad house is this?

[hotstickyslick]

Both man, BOTH. I repeat BOTH drivers made a mistake. What kind of a mad house is this?

And what did Webber do that would be classified as a mistake? Because as far as I know Webber didn't break any rules.

Edited by hotstickyslick, 02 June 2010 - 01:08.

[F1 Tor.]

Both man, BOTH. I repeat BOTH drivers made a mistake. What kind of a mad house is this?

one that you obviously enjoy coming to.

[Hairpin]

one that you obviously enjoy coming to.;)

I'm a doctor

[Craven Morehead]

I didn't see Webber make any mistake whatsoever. He held his line, and left enough room. If he were to just move aside and let wunderkind through, he might as well just pack it in now and go home; because it really all would be over.

Wunderkind made the brash move, and wunderkind initiated the contact causing an entirely avoidable accident.

[Sakae]

And what did Webber do that would be classified as a mistake? Because as far as I know Webber didn't break any rules.

Did not avoid incident, yet he had that opportunity. I think it is precisely for that reason why RBR is, or was, mad at him.

Edited by Sakae, 02 June 2010 - 01:11.

[PassWind]

Well, Vettel manage to do 8/10 of his pass so I do not think it is reasonable to expect him to back off.

What would have been interesting to see is what would have happened if Vettel had not twitched right. Braking point was awfully close there and as soon as you arrive there you can not move no more and both would have been quite eager to out brake the other. On the dirty side with no space between them. I do agree with the RBR official statement "rookie mistake by both drivers" because the whole sequence was an accident waiting to happen and it happened just a bit sooner than expected.

8/10ths is not good enough, Mark hung him out there for a reason, and it would have made Vettel out brake himself through the corner which of course is exactly what Marks intent was so Vettel should have realised like the vast majority of drivers normally do that his pass wasn't going to happen and accept the fail, but no he chose to drive into his team mate, which given that they allow their drivers to race each other had him covered for the corner with excellent car positioning as he is fully entitled to defend his position, the only thing that was wrong with the whole incident is Vettel chose the wrong option in turning into his team mate, absolutely Vettels fault, Mark was never nor should be obligated to give an inch when he is set and left reasonable room for the overtake, Vettel didn't have enough speed for the clean pass so he has to take other action, in other words give in and resume his position or leave the track. You can't just chuck your car there and expect another competitor to sit there and say fair call, here have the position. All the choices were up to Vettel, he chose the wrong option, and youthful mistake, as DM said **** happens and I am glad Webber wasn't penalised to much for Vettel's over enthusiastic move. The public and the racing community are pretty united in this view and giving that Mark has made some stupid mistakes himself and taking full blame for them, Vettel could take a leaf out of his senior partners book of etiquette. Its also good to see RedBull respond to the fans as I think they now understand that the community is intently focused on fairness between driver pairings, as they should be.

Edited by PassWind, 02 June 2010 - 01:13.

[hotstickyslick]

Did not avoid incident, yet he had that opportunity. I think it is precisely for that reason why RBR is, or was, mad at him.

And Vettel had the opportunity to not go for the inside too. Can't you see that wheel to wheel racing works both ways?

Red Bull wasn't happy at Webber for disobeying team orders to let Vettel through which he is entilted to do.

[hansmann]

Own goal there. That is why he should have left more space. There was no margins for error and then there was an error.

I can see how this is another discussions with repititious arguments - but I still don't understand how a driver can be blamed when he's going in a straight line, and then gets taken out by an attacking driver who can't control his vehicle .

Team mate or not, no F1 driver is in the business of keeping the door wide open for a competitor .
Mark didn't close the door either, made split second decisions , left room for the other car, kept his cool, at 300 km/h .
That's some good driving.

Handled poorly still by RBR in their press releases, Webber sounding mature as usual in the aftermath. Not a word from the youngster .

[canman]

Own goal there. That is why he should have left more space. There was no margins for error and then there was an error.

so you dont think that if Webber had left "more space" that Seb would not have still kept pushing against Webber to try to get to the clean line ??
No matter how much space Webber gave Seb, he would have still crowded Webber to the right.
Vettel had plenty of track on the left, but he wanted to go right, he did not want another 1 metre of track, he was trying to get over to the race line, and that was never a possibility.
Sure Webber could have avoided the incident, he could have stayed in the motorhome and drank beer, but he wants to be WDC.
Driver error...pure and simple, its just that he and his mentors are not up to admitting it.

[hansmann]

Did not avoid incident, yet he had that opportunity. I think it is precisely for that reason why RBR is, or was, mad at him.

Man A leaves home in the morning, drives his car to work .
Man B does the same.

Man B is fiddling with his stereo, swerves to the right, hit's man A's car in the other lane.

Naturally, man A is guilty due to not staying home that day.

Simple enough ?

[JSDSKI]

.... IMHO once being with his cockpit leveled or slightly in front of Webber's car nose, Vettel had no less right to claim a bit more space for himself. And it's the responsibility of the one, who's behind and has a full view of the dispositions of the cars to stop driving in straight line and ensure there's no crash....

Interesting opinion, but mistaken view, imo: Vettel has no right to Webber's space and position until his car is CLEAR of Webber's.

Vettel only has the right to continue straight on the left side. Vettel easily had time and space to continue in a straight line on the left side of the track. He could brake and make the corner. He just didn't have enough space and time to make the corner AND OUTBRAKE Webber. So he chopped him. He expected Webber to react and jink right - to avoid the contact. Thus giving Vettel the space he wanted. But Webber didn't lift. Webber didn't respond to Vettel's chop.

Vettel didn't expect Webber to stay put, but he'd already committed to his new line into the corner (moving diagonally to the right side). Result: bang.

[Sakae]

Man A leaves home in the morning, drives his car to work .
Man B does the same.

Man B is fiddling with his stereo, swerves to the right, hit's man A's car in the other lane.

Naturally, man A is guilty due to not staying home that day.

Simple enough ?

you cracking me up

[bourbon]

The problem is Vettel is getting into the habit of doing that same move more and more
in just the last few races he has jinked on at least 4 occasions and that's without even keeping an eye open for such moves (two of which have hurt his team mate)

Say what?

Proof? I'm not difficult, just tell me the other driver in which race cuz this isn't ringing any bells at all.

as for Webber not moving he did not have time to react if you watch the videos there was only a split second from when Vettel had his brain fade to when he hit webber. But then again the rules are clear a driver is perfectly within his right to drive in a straight line down the track its the job of both drivers not to hit each other but its not the job of a driver who is driving straight down the track to move out of the way if one driver tries to pressure them, however it is the job of the driver who pressures to not hit the other car, and i would think you would agree that is how it should be unfortunately vettel got it wrong and failed to ensure no matter how much pressure you apply you don't hit the other car.

Quite possibly. My point was that he shouldn't have been that close in the first place. Giving the other driver that bit more room isn't required, and so you know, when it is some other loser from another team, well, I wouldn't like it, but I'm not going to say much. But when it is your own teammate, and the team points are at stake, then yeah, give a little more room. I know all the arguments about entitlement - and yeah yeah - but really, teams want you to play ball when it comes to the WCC, that is the bottom line. As I stated - Vettel should have cleared before getting right, but he'd of had more room to notify Mark of his intent if Mark had allowed it... At present I see blame both ways - but I have to tell you, if it comes out that there were clear limits on this stuff and Mark blew it, or if it is known in racing that at that point on a track the insider needs a little room for heading right to get a line to make it, or something along those lines, I would side with Vettel. I don't know any of that at the moment, so it seems Vettel turned in early. The only reason I bring it up is because he seems to have said he made no mistakes - if that is true, he must have a reason for saying it...I'd have to hear it before I opined.

Somehow i think Vettel is the one now clarifying the rules and that the drivers will be talking about outlawing jinking as clearly that more dangerous than weaving in front of a car.

The hope of every Hami fan... . I say that good naturedly. Hami and his fans have had to take a lot of smack up to now - but honestly, he has deserved most of it. Still, it is a pain in the butt, so I do feel for them all and have tried to limit myself in discussing his woes. At the moment I am rather unhappy with his behavior concerning this event, but if he goes quiet now after having his say, I'll remain quiet about it. Fans hopping all over Vettel is somewhat difficult because there is simply not enough proof to back up most contentions. People reaching back to his start at STR-F and such should hang it up because he wasn't given the training and goods like Hami, he didn't even do GP2, so I cop him a break on his rookie start (as I do for Hulk, even though he was a GP2 star btw - they are learning and not on top notch equipment.)

Edited by bourbon, 02 June 2010 - 01:34.

[Craven Morehead]

Man A leaves home in the morning, drives his car to work .
Man B does the same.

Man B is fiddling with his stereo, swerves to the right, hit's man A's car in the other lane.

Naturally, man A is guilty due to not staying home that day.

Simple enough ?

excellent

[JSDSKI]

Well, Vettel manage to do 8/10 of his pass so I do not think it is reasonable to expect him to back off.

What would have been interesting to see is what would have happened if Vettel had not twitched right. Braking point was awfully close there and as soon as you arrive there you can not move no more and both would have been quite eager to out brake the other. On the dirty side with no space between them. I do agree with the RBR official statement "rookie mistake by both drivers" because the whole sequence was an accident waiting to happen and it happened just a bit sooner than expected.

And 80% of a pass is as good as no pass at all. Vettel didn't "twitch" right. He tried to intimidate Webber with a chop. Vettel could have made the corner simply by giving up the pass and braking a bit sooner.

[Lazarus II]

Man A leaves home in the morning, drives his car to work .
Man B does the same.

Man B is sexting, swerves to the right, hit's man A's car in the other lane.

Naturally, man A is guilty due to not staying home that day.

Simple enough ?

Fixed for you. People don't fiddle with stereos anymore they text or sext. Usually while driving their rug-rats to school.


Multi=tasking = doing multiple things badly.