24317 replies to this topic

[trogggy]

It's just asking 'IF Jenson is better will he be better?' It's not as if he HAS beaten Lewis 2,3 or 5 times

Hammy fans could just as pointlessly ask what tkulla would say IF Lewis completely demolished Jense for evermore.

Or could pointlessly state that he'll never win another wdc, that Ferrari and Red Bull aren't worried by him, that he's 'at Webber's level at best'. Which is what that post was replying to.
In the context of that it doesn't sound unreasonable, does it?

[undersquare]

How is Alonso more exciting than Button?

Nando is more intense, more of a gladiator, and just a bit more extreme, I'd say.

[GlenP]

You sure its not your own bias talking there.... How about a discussion on buttons sheer lack of qualifying pace.

Buttons had good seasons yeah - against the likes of Sato.

Just admit it - an underperforming Hamilton has flattered a decent Button this year that's all.

The car has to be the best for Button to have a hope of Pole and the championship.

How many points do you get for qualifying again? Is it none?

If you can't give the guy credit for winning the World Championship (he has the same number of Championships as his team-mate, by the way) then I can't really see the point in discussing it.

[GlenP]

But not as fast as his team mate until he had to retire. There's some context.;)

His team-mate looked every inch the accident waiting to happen! That isn't fast - that's wreckless. He went straight into Webber with absolutely no circumspection or hesitation, and very shortly after that the inevitable occurred - it just happened to be into Jenson, but it was coming anyway, such was the abandon he was bringing to the race so early on. Unsustainable and out of control is not fast - the only fast that counts is the kind of fast that gets you all the way to the end of the race first.

[fieraku]

How many points do you get for qualifying again? Is it none?

If you can't give the guy credit for winning the World Championship (he has the same number of Championships as his team-mate, by the way) then I can't really see the point in discussing it.

Yes none! but if you ask every team every driver where they'd like to start the answer is P1. Qualy didn't matter all that much in some races due to DRS&Bubble gum but don't count on it next year,those two gimmicks will be revised and finely tuned.

We went from 260 overtakes in 08 to 1120 in 2011. I'm sure the Overtaking Group will look into that as they and we don't want F1 to turn into a Mario Kart version.

Call this a trial year,but be sure come 2012 grid position will be king again,and I only see troubles for JB. If all three top teams are equal on race1 I don't see him qualifying higher than 4th,and even for that he'd have to beat FM&MW who are no Quali slouches.
JB's operating window for a WDC is a small one,whereas Lewis doesn't need a second faster car.
Can JB beat LH next year?Yes! If Mac can only fight for P4-5s the point diff is small and I know Lewis will risk it while JB will be happy to beat LH!

[GlenP]

OK.

So this thread is the 2011 thread. Most Lewis fans were totally wrong and did not expect him to get beat. Most thought he could adapt better, that was wrong.

If you have predictions for 2012, that's cool. But you may well be wrong again, especially those who still (despite ample evidence) underestimate Jenson and overestimate Lewis.

[fieraku]

OK.

So this thread is the 2011 thread. Most Lewis fans were totally wrong and did not expect him to get beat. Most thought he could adapt better, that was wrong.

If you have predictions for 2012, that's cool. But you may well be wrong again, especially those who still (despite ample evidence) underestimate Jenson and overestimate Lewis.

The evidence suggests that JB is 2tenths slower than LH on average.Are you suggesting that JB has more one lap pace than SV&FA?

[robefc]

OK.

So this thread is the 2011 thread. Most Lewis fans were totally wrong and did not expect him to get beat. Most thought he could adapt better, that was wrong.
If you have predictions for 2012, that's cool. But you may well be wrong again, especially those who still (despite ample evidence) underestimate Jenson and overestimate Lewis.

I'm not sure that statement is just true of hammy fans...

[GlenP]

The evidence suggests that JB is 2tenths slower than LH on average.Are you suggesting that JB has more one lap pace than SV&FA?

No it doesn't. One lap pace is not totally unimportant, but in the big scheme I'd leave it to one side versus race pace, consistency, racecraft etc.

(There is a difference in qualifying, which I and most people would readily admit to - and which JB acknowledges too. He is getting closer all the time, I believe, though.)

[trogggy]

The evidence suggests that JB is 2tenths slower than LH on average.Are you suggesting that JB has more one lap pace than SV&FA?

Much as you'd like 2012 to be all about qualifying - just as you've tried to make 2011 all about qualifying, the one area where LH has a definite advantage - it won't be. It's one factor.

[purplejohn]

Qualifying will be more important next year, the Pirellis are becoming more durable thats why we've seen more field spread over the past few races.

It will be key to qualify higher

[undersquare]

I'm not sure that statement is just true of hammy fans...

Don't think it's true at all is it? 'Adapt better'??

As far as I can think Lewis has had a pace advantage for most races this year. Only in India (where it was odd) and Suzuka (as you mentioned) did Jenson have the pace on Lewis.

[tkulla]

I think there's a general consensus now that we have a Big 4 these days, with Button confirmed alongside his fellow champions (well, all but Schumacher).

There might be a few holdouts, especially on this board, but nearly everyone else is convinced by Button's performances at McLaren. Red Bull & Ferrari both made inquiries before he re-signed, and even Flavio has admitted for the first time that he was wrong (still waiting for the general apology from him for wearing a speedo).

What will be interesting next year is to see if Kimi can resume his place as a top driver, and whether Nico has the car that will allow us to see if he might be joining that group as well (or maybe we'll see Michael take advantage of such a car instead).

[fieraku]

No it doesn't. One lap pace is not totally unimportant, but in the big scheme I'd leave it to one side versus race pace, consistency, racecraft etc.

(There is a difference in qualifying, which I and most people would readily admit to - and which JB acknowledges too. He is getting closer all the time, I believe, though.)

Which becomes easier from P1 then from P4. I am talking about the grand scheme of things.

[BillBald]

It's just asking 'IF Jenson is better will he be better?' It's not as if he HAS beaten Lewis 2,3 or 5 times

Hammy fans could just as pointlessly ask what tkulla would say IF Lewis completely demolished Jense for evermore.

Some Lewis fans have managed to convince themselves that if Jenson beats Lewis it's a fluke, a one-off, due to exceptional circumstances.

So the question is, how many times would Jenson have to beat Lewis before they would change their minds?

That's a very reasonable question. It doesn't work the other way round. After 2010 there were no Jenson fans who were claiming that Jenson would have beaten Lewis if he hadn't some kind of problem which was unrelated to his driving.

[GlenP]

Don't think it's true at all is it? 'Adapt better'??

As far as I can think Lewis has had a pace advantage for most races this year. Only in India (where it was odd) and Suzuka (as you mentioned) did Jenson have the pace on Lewis.

Talk about revising history! Loads of people were claiming that Lewis was the one that could cope with tyres going off and drive around problems as they came up - same people were very quick to claim that Jenson couldn't be competitive unless the car was 100% perfect. Turns out that was all crap.

If Lewis has a race pace advantage (as in, over the entire race, not selected laps) how come he hasn't got to the end of the race first?

If Lewis oversteps the mark and runs at a pace that he can't sustain that isn't faster.

[zack1994]

Don't think it's true at all is it? 'Adapt better'??

As far as I can think Lewis has had a pace advantage for most races this year. Only in India (where it was odd) and Suzuka (as you mentioned) did Jenson have the pace on Lewis.

Can you name them please, as i see alot of races where there pace in the race was very close and they whre a match and some that we never got a good comparison on like belguim and monaco.

[fieraku]

Talk about revising history! Loads of people were claiming that Lewis was the one that could cope with tyres going off and drive around problems as they came up - same people were very quick to claim that Jenson couldn't be competitive unless the car was 100% perfect. Turns out that was all crap.

If Lewis has a race pace advantage (as in, over the entire race, not selected laps) how come he hasn't got to the end of the race first?

If Lewis oversteps the mark and runs at a pace that he can't sustain that isn't faster.

If??? Haha! Look at all the races where tyre conservation wasn't on the menu. Lewis' TRUE PACE is varied by outside factors,hint (tires).

[zack1994]

If??? Haha! Look at all the races where tyre conservation wasn't on the menu. Lewis' TRUE PACE is varied by outside factors,hint (tires).

What like india.

[trogggy]

TRUE PACE

Is there a table?
What are the standings?
OMG there's only 1 race left and I've been looking at races, not TRUE PACE.

[GlenP]

If??? Haha! Look at all the races where tyre conservation wasn't on the menu. Lewis' TRUE PACE is varied by outside factors,hint (tires).

The car doesn't go very well without tyres on it.

[undersquare]

Some Lewis fans have managed to convince themselves that if Jenson beats Lewis it's a fluke, a one-off, due to exceptional circumstances.

So the question is, how many times would Jenson have to beat Lewis before they would change their minds?

That's a very reasonable question. It doesn't work the other way round. After 2010 there were no Jenson fans who were claiming that Jenson would have beaten Lewis if he hadn't some kind of problem which was unrelated to his driving.

How would they even know? This year JB's won by having fewer incidents.

[trogggy]

How would they even know? This year JB's won by having fewer incidents.

Well he's had fewer incidents for the last 3 seasons - do you think that's just luck, or is it likely to continue?

[GlenP]

How would they even know? This year JB's won by having fewer incidents.

You make it sound like these "incidents" have nothing to do with Lewis Hamilton!

[fieraku]

Is there a table?
What are the standings?
OMG there's only 1 race left and I've been looking at races, not TRUE PACE.

Yes!
1-LH
Yes!

Crafty as always.

[fieraku]

The car doesn't go very well without tyres on it.

I know! Just put brand new ones on mines! It's a beast now compared with the degraded/worn ones.Handles better too.

[trogggy]

Yes!
1-LH
Yes!

Crafty as always.

You got me.

Sorry, I've gone all defensive because JB's just been beaten in this season's super-secret TRUE PACE table.

[Big Arti]

To all those saying that the tyres will be more durable next season I suggest you read this

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96376

[GlenP]

Sounds as if the tyres are going to be faster for 2012, with less difference between the compounds performance wise.

Bad for Lewis because they will be softer. Good for Lewis if he can choose the harder of the two for most of the stints, if he can't look after the softer.

Still a pretty stupid argument to say - if you have different tyres, if you only look at one lap, if you discount all cock-ups, if, if, if - then Lewis would be faster.

[fieraku]

Sounds as if the tyres are going to be faster for 2012, with less difference between the compounds performance wise.

Bad for Lewis because they will be softer. Good for Lewis if he can choose the harder of the two for most of the stints, if he can't look after the softer.

Still a pretty stupid argument to say - if you have different tyres, if you only look at one lap, if you discount all cock-ups, if, if, if - then Lewis would be faster.

Not at all! Bad for JB actually.

"In general, the tyres are going to be less conservative next year"

Yes none! but if you ask every team every driver where they'd like to start the answer is P1. Qualy didn't matter all that much in some races due to DRS&Bubble gum but don't count on it next year,those two gimmicks will be revised and finely tuned.

My initial thought spot on!

[zack1994]

Not at all! Bad for JB actually.



My initial thought spot on!

Nope less conservative. More conservative would be more durable tyres.

Edited by zack1994, 22 November 2011 - 14:17.

[trogggy]

Not at all! Bad for JB actually.



My initial thought spot on!

How does 'less conservative' translate into 'Bad for JB'?

What do you think it means?

[Watkins74]

My initial thought spot on!

When you start quoting yourself that is a sure sign you need to take a break from the keyboard.

[GlenP]

Not at all! Bad for JB actually.

What?

You have argued extensively that the soft and short-lived tyres are not good for Lewis?

This all means the opposite of what you seem to think it means! The tyres will be faster (softer).

[fieraku]

How does 'less conservative' translate into 'Bad for JB'?

What do you think it means?

This!

Its plan is to reduce the performance gap between different compounds - which should deliver more strategic options for teams.

Pirelli director of motorsport Paul Hembery said: "I think next season you will not get the whole season run on the soft. We will close down the gap between the compounds and you will see races where hard and medium is used. The data is showing a big improvement in performance.
"We will have to reset all the compounds for next season. We want to close down the gaps of performance between the compounds, from 1.2 seconds to about 0.8 seconds."

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96127

[zack1994]

This!


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96127

But there going to be less conservative tyres. Even the hards and mediums.

[fieraku]

What?

You have argued extensively that the soft and short-lived tyres are not good for Lewis?

This all means the opposite of what you seem to think it means! The tyres will be faster (softer).

The only way the tires can be faster is if they last 15 laps not 5!

[fieraku]

But there going to be less conservative tyres. Even the hards and mediums.

What do you think that means?
[]better
[]worse

"The data is showing a big improvement in performance."

[GlenP]

The only way the tires can be faster is if they last 15 laps not 5!

You've just got it totally wrong!

They are making all the compounds less conservative (that means softer, less durable). What was once soft may be called medium, for example. There will not be a really hard tyre at all by the sounds of it, but it will still be called "hard".

Think of the 180 degrees opposite of what you first thought - that's it.

[trogggy]

The only way the tires can be faster is if they last 15 laps not 5!

You apparently have no idea what 'less conservative' tyres means - you just quote it, say 'I was right. Bad for JB' as if that somehow means something.

[fieraku]

You've just got it totally wrong!

They are making all the compounds less conservative (that means softer, less durable). What was once soft may be called medium, for example. There will not be a really hard tyre at all by the sounds of it, but it will still be called "hard".

Think of the 180 degrees opposite of what you first thought - that's it.

Yeah they're working hard to increase performance by making the tyres last 1 lap instead of 5.

Less conservative means more racing,none of this tyre saving crap in Q,means none of these "look after your tyres" half the race, it means improving the racing experience NOT ONE LAP experience which is what you're thinking.

They're not making tires that are faster for one lap but last less

2011 was conservative get it? 2012 won't be! And making less durable tyres DOES NOT compute!

You apparently have no idea what 'less conservative' tyres means - you just quote it, say 'I was right. Bad for JB' as if that somehow means something.

2for1

Edited by fieraku, 22 November 2011 - 14:42.

[zack1994]

What do you think that means?
[]better
[]worse

"The data is showing a big improvement in performance."

He means the hard and medium are faster.

"I think next season you will not get the whole season run on the soft. We will close down the gap between the compounds and you will see races where hard and medium is used. The data is showing a big improvement in performance.

It has nothing to do with durability of the tyre just pure speed of the hard and the medium compared to soft and supersoft.

[GlenP]

Yeah they're working hard to increase performance by making the tyres last 1 lap instead of 5.

Less conservative means more racing,none of this tyre saving crap in Q,means none of these "look after your tyres" half the race, it means improving the racing experience NOT ONE LAP experience which is what you're thinking.

They're not making tires that are faster for one lap but last less

2011 was conservative get it? 2012 won't be! And making less durable tyres DOES NOT compute!

Don't know why you're putting the laughing icon. You have misunderstood. The joke is on you, sadly!

Why don't you just read the Pirelli articles? They state clearly that the new soft tyre that they are using next weekend may well be the one that they call medium next year. In other words - all the tyres are going to be softer!

[zack1994]

Yeah they're working hard to increase performance by making the tyres last 1 lap instead of 5.

Less conservative means more racing,none of this tyre saving crap in Q,means none of these "look after your tyres" half the race, it means improving the racing experience NOT ONE LAP experience which is what you're thinking.

They're not making tires that are faster for one lap but last less

2011 was conservative get it? 2012 won't be! And making less durable tyres DOES NOT compute!

2for1

It does you fool read this quote:
"In general, the tyres are going to be less conservative next year as the second half of this season has shown how well the teams have understood our product, allowing us to make some reasonably aggressive choices such as supersoft and soft for Korea."He's saying we can make them less durable because the teams have shown that they can cope with that.

[Pingu Pi]

nobody but Pirelli know what they are doing with tyres and how they will affect the race strategy and degradation.

They could be faster yet more durable, faster yet less durable. However according to the recent Experimental tyre, they are more durable than there original counterparts, would go 20 laps instead of the original 10. I think that's what Hembrey said on 5 Live during a recent practice session.

I hate trying to guess year on year before we see any on track performance what team's are going to be like, it's just ludicrous, nothing counts for anything, especially not this next year now that massive amounts of DF will be lost thanks to the removal of the EBD. The use of the rear tyres next year will only be calculable from next year's cars, this year has no baring on 2012.

[trogggy]

Less conservative means more racing,none of this tyre saving crap in Q,means none of these "look after your tyres" half the race, it means improving the racing experience NOT ONE LAP experience which is what you're thinking.

It's possible that Paul Hembery is using poor English to describe the tyres for next year I suppose.
But you have no idea what I'm thinking if your post is anything to judge by.

Edited by trogggy, 22 November 2011 - 14:46.

[fieraku]

He means the hard and medium are faster.

"I think next season you will not get the whole season run on the soft. We will close down the gap between the compounds and you will see races where hard and medium is used. The data is showing a big improvement in performance.

It has nothing to do with durability of the tyre just pure speed of the hard and the medium compared to soft and supersoft.

I will bookmark this and say "I told you so" in due time.

[undersquare]

Can you name them please, as i see alot of races where there pace in the race was very close and they whre a match and some that we never got a good comparison on like belguim and monaco.

I agree their pace has been close. I see it:

Australia - LH
Malaysia - JB? business with LH's crap primes
China - LH
Turkey - 3 stop vs 4
Spain - LH
Monaco - LH/team qualy cockup
Canada - incident
Europe - LH
Britain - wheel off for JB
Germany - LH
Hungary - primes for JB not LH
Belgium - koba/LH inicdent
Italy - JB
Singapore - JB
Japan - JB
Korea - LH
India - JB
Abu Dhabi - LH

So among the clear results that's JB:4 or 5 LH: 7

[trogggy]

I will bookmark this and say "I told you so" in due time.

You probably will.
That doesn't mean you've understood it now, just that you'll tell him you told him so.
Will you use big bold fonts like when you claim 'proof'?

[zack1994]

I will bookmark this and say "I told you so" in due time.

Pirelli are able to make them softer because the teams can deal with the degradation, degredation will be a bit better but the tyres will be a bit softer.

That's what paul hembery said about korea.