204 replies to this topic

[Lights]

I was in the stands at T12/13/14 this weekend. A couple of times overtakes were completely unnoticed by the crowd (especially when they were ignored by the TV director too) because the attacker was already infront of the defender on top of the hill when we got them into sight. It's not fighting anymore, fresh tyres + bend/hill slipstream + DRS is like a temporary effect of an F1 car overtaking a GP2 car. I think what we want to see is fighting.

[Group B]

Agreed, but that's maily a tyre thing; like LH on SV in China, or Button getting mugged in Turkey. Ironically other changes have brought a lot more overtaking, but I'm not sure that means DRS is inherently bad.

[wj_gibson]

I expect the DRS zone in Barcelona will be signifincatly shorter than it was in Turkey, and that there will be hardly any overtaking moves as a consequence.

It'll take some further experimenting until enough knowledge is built up to determine more accurately where the line should be at eahc circuit to ensure that it isn't too easy. But the concept itself is perfectly sound. In the 1960s all you had to do was get to within 1 second of the car in front and the tow of the slipstream would be enough to carry you past in much the same fashion as the moves at Istanbul.

[jk]

I wonder if the people disliking these races also think that the slipstreaming Monza races of the early 70s were a bore. Those races in particular were cases of evenly matches cars passing and repassing end on end.

[Henrytheeigth]

I wonder if the people disliking these races also think that the slipstreaming Monza races of the early 70s were a bore. Those races in particular were cases of evenly matches cars passing and repassing end on end.

Slip streaming aint a gimmick right? Don't press a button and the car infront then makes a hole in the air for you.

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 09 May 2011 - 12:36.

[David1976]

I disagree. I think that DRS works.

Much as I would like to harp on about how it doesn't translate to road car technology etc, it has improved the show. And if everything was about how it relays to road cars then you'd have to get rid of front wings!

Turkey, perhaps, was the first time that we have seen a case where it made overtaking substantially easier but Turkey has always had overtaking because of the circuit design anyway. Added to this is that once Webber overtook Alonso he still managed to clear him enough to make DRS useless. I am sure they will modify the activation zone for next year and I am happy with that.

What I would prefer is that they remove the option to use it throughout quali and restrict it to the race.

Edited by David1976, 09 May 2011 - 12:38.

[chhatra]

What about hiving the driver in front an extra 1000rpm if the car behind is less than a second. He can use it to maintain a good gap and the guy behind won't be able to close in so easily. Atleast the prey has some sort of an advantage rather than being completely defenseless. Like a lion chasing a three legged gazelle.

[smitten]

What about hiving the driver in front an extra 1000rpm if the car behind is less than a second. He can use it to maintain a good gap and the guy behind won't be able to close in so easily. Atleast the prey has some sort of an advantage rather than being completely defenseless. Like a lion chasing a three legged gazelle.

F1 needs less rules, not more!

[flyer121]

I ve mixed feelings on DRS ...

While it is a good tool to allow faster guys thru , it shouldn't be such that the faster guys pass the drivers way before the braking zone.

I don't think that its that hard to run simulations for each circuit and get a distance the wing can remain open so as to allow for cars to be side by side at the first braking marker.

I know there are many other factors like car characteristics / tires but they need to aim for the cars to be level at the brake marker, then its upto who brakes later.

[manmower]

How about: keep DRS and KERS, but remove the limitations on line changes in defensive driving and the silly two compound rules.

[Dunder]

How about: keep DRS and KERS, but remove the limitations on line changes in defensive driving and the silly two compound rules.

Blocking and weaving? No thanks.

[expert]

I'm amazed there's so much of a backlash against the race here. I thought it was fine. Yes the DRS zone was perhaps slightly too long but I'd much rather have a situation like this than the dreadful races of last year. If anything annoyed me it was the excess of pitstops.

I think everyone's getting a bit spoiled now that the idea of adjusting the "overtakingability" of the cars race-by-race has been introduced. There's always going to be circuits where passing is easier than others and that can only be a good thing as variety adds interest to f1. Just forget that these things are tweaked scientifically and enjoy the races.

Another thing people are spoiled with is the idea that racing battles must be hard fought or that every passing manouvre must be special. That is rubbish that was introduced in the last decade to justify the lack of action in f1. You guys (and Niki Lauda too, apparently) need to re-watch the races of the eighties. There was a ton less action because the cars were so spread out, but when they caught each other they just breezed by. Long wheel to wheel battles were the exception. admittedly those are more entertaining, but the point is, the norm should be faster drivers and cars getting by and the good defensive drives the exceptions. All the great classic defensive drives were in circuits where overtaking is difficult by default...

Started to write something out myself but this post comes close to summing up my view perfectly.

[tormave]

While it is a good tool to allow faster guys thru , it shouldn't be such that the faster guys pass the drivers way before the braking zone.

Agree. However in the golden era of 1.5 litre turbo engines, this how many overtakes took place. A quick turn of the turbo boost knob and the overtaker had 1500bhp. A turbo car vs. a non-turbo one was like F1 vs. GP3...

[SimMaker]

When was the last time we saw a safety car? I'm liking not seeing it.

Though some of the overtakes yesterday did seem very mariokart, I'm not sure if thats such a bad thing. Mariokart is pretty popular. How much better it must be "for real" and at 180mph?

And no more "Truli Train".

[sosidge]

My opinion also, and I believe deep down, alot of those bitchin feel the same way. Just maybe at the moment it is not working for their driver..

F1 has a problem with overtaking.

DRS is the wrong solution.

[Atreiu]

DRS is a quick fix until 2013, but now it seems they won't go after ground effects...

[midgrid]

I'd quite like to see the FIA hold a race this year at a normal track (not Monaco) without DRS, just to see if KERS and tyre degradation are enough to overcome the wake problem by themselves.

[expert]

I'd quite like to see the FIA hold a race this year at a normal track (not Monaco) without DRS, just to see if KERS and tyre degradation are enough to overcome the wake problem by themselves.

Neither KERS or tyre degradation address the wake problem.

[expert]

One question I have is that rather than tinkering with where the activation zone starts whether you can just have less angle change allowed at certain circuits so the drag reduction gain isn't so great.

[smitten]

One question I have is that rather than tinkering with where the activation zone starts whether you can just have less angle change allowed at certain circuits so the drag reduction gain isn't so great.

The teams won't like having to fabricate different wings unnecessarily. The cheapest option it to move the lines.

[expert]

The teams won't like having to fabricate different wings unnecessarily. The cheapest option it to move the lines.

My unspoken answer to my own question was "cost".

But I was wondering if they could be engineered in a way that allowed the wings to be locked at different angles between different races. There's an open setting and a closed setting right? Just a matter of making the open setting variable (if they're not *already* designed that way).

I'll admit to not looking into the engineering of this at all.

Edited by expert, 09 May 2011 - 15:06.

[chhatra]

The teams won't like having to fabricate different wings unnecessarily. The cheapest option it to move the lines.

In that case why not have two pre-selected DRS zones. If one is looking like its too easy Charlie can send a message to switch to shorter one. All teams can be notified pretty easily and a message and on screen graphic can come up showing the shorter one so the fans can get it quite easily.

[nomeg1]

The DRS was a complete joke today. It took away any of the drama in the battle for second between Webber and Alonso... and it took some of the excitement out of that battle.

I also thought Massa lost out particularly badly when he was passing Rosberg, he actually pulled a nice legitimate move just before the DRS zone only to have Rosberg drive straight past again!

Massa was a joke, piteous, and I like the guy !
DRS is the "push button generation", Senna always said that he never wanted to be driven by a computer.
And Racoon, I agree with you, but, it took the total excitement of the battle.

Also, I believe I saw Heidfeld activated it when he was in no way to pass anybody, but only defending ?

[sharo]

Don't know about Heidfeld but I saw double activation - 2 cars chasing each other and a third one in front and all within 1 second gap among them.

Edited by sharo, 09 May 2011 - 18:38.

[Gommes]

Massa was a joke, piteous, and I like the guy !
DRS is the "push button generation", Senna always said that he never wanted to be driven by a computer.
And Racoon, I agree with you, but, it took the total excitement of the battle.

Also, I believe I saw Heidfeld activated it when he was in no way to pass anybody, but only defending ?

he activated it after overtake. coz he was within in DRS check section, then he overtake the guy before DRS activation zone, and he could still activate it which one is totally ok with rules

[Biofreak]

I have a newbie question.
Is DRS only on/off system or u can play with it, with different settings? for example in qualifying, some turns can be taken with half way open DRS and so on, but impossible on fully opened wing, etc.

[F1Champion]

Today was a joke, the driver in front has no way to defend and its pathetic really...I hope DRS is no longer in F1 next year.

Totally agree, Rosberg was well ahead of Webber and Alonso and both should be been alot closer before an overtake took place. A decent gap disappeared straight away. Was it Alonso who completed the overtake and got back ahead before the next corner. DRS should be disabled once you are alongside someone.

Call me old fashioned but I watched F3 the other day and the slipstream and ability to race closely behind each other was perfect. Close enough to get a tow and the tow was enough to get alongside and to complete the overtake.

[Dunder]

I have a newbie question.
Is DRS only on/off system or u can play with it, with different settings? for example in qualifying, some turns can be taken with half way open DRS and so on, but impossible on fully opened wing, etc.

No. The slot is either open or closed.

[dreamerP]

I wrote this in another forum and I think I'll share it here as well!

I get why some people would be a bit "frustrated" after Turkey watching cars being passed as if they were being lapped. however, the DRS did NOT ensure a pass in all cases. look at massa vs rosberg and other battles in the drs zone.

yes, the zone was too long, but you still had to get really close really fast to have the complete advantage to the car in front.

I think that the drs does exactly what it was introduced to do. you do not need a car lapping two seconds faster to overtake anymore and I am really fine with that! the faster car will overtake at the drs zone, instead of risking it some place else. but what happened to all the fights resolved with the drs? most of them ended in a matter of corners, and by the first corner of the track the overtake-e was already half a second away -IN MOST CASES.

sure there were fights that went on, but the faster car got through. I feel that it was more frustrating in the previous years when you would see Hamilton/Alonso and others, going through the field and then getting stuck behind a car lapping a second slower and not being able to overtake

[Kucki]

The effect of the fast tire degradation removes the need for DRS.

Edited by Kucki, 09 May 2011 - 23:59.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Call me old fashioned but I watched F3 the other day and the slipstream and ability to race closely behind each other was perfect. Close enough to get a tow and the tow was enough to get alongside and to complete the overtake.

I'd just call you old. Since when has F3 provided good racing?

[wingwalker]

Overtaking was too easy, yes, but Turkey has always been an overtaking friendly track so it's not that surprising, and we had some really good battles and actual moves. I don't think DRS will work as 'overtaking free card' in Europe.

[chhatra]

I think another factor to consider is that with the banning of double diffusers we saw cars able to stay relatively close out of t8 helping them stay within the magical 1 second barrier even with tires that have done similar laps. Last year cars would drop 2-4 tenths if following the car behind so they were never in a position to attack down into t12. Asposted before the easiest thing to do is shorten the DRS zone. The tires wprovide the opportunity most of the time anyway. Sorry for the typos my new phone isn't so great

[Hairpin]

I think another factor to consider is that with the banning of double diffusers we saw cars able to stay relatively close out of t8 helping them stay within the magical 1 second barrier even with tires that have done similar laps. Last year cars would drop 2-4 tenths if following the car behind so they were never in a position to attack down into t12. Asposted before the easiest thing to do is shorten the DRS zone. The tires wprovide the opportunity most of the time anyway. Sorry for the typos my new phone isn't so great

As I said many times, already when DRS was proposed, they change too many parameters at the time.

Most people involved in development knows you should not mess with several conflicting parameters at once without evaluating the,m separately because if you do, you do not know which parameter, which object, that is responsible for the change you get.

This year, they threw away DDD, added KERS and went to a completely different universe for tires. So the DRS is a fix for something that is no longer there.

[Ross Stonefeld]

We can't conclusively say DRS isn't needed.

[Hairpin]

We can't conclusively say DRS isn't needed.

I can conclusively say I don't want it. I don't want any kind of push to pass mechanism. It devaluates passing completely. From have been too difficult it went to be without value. It is a position change, that's all. They should have focused on solving the actual problem.

[jk]

They should have focused on solving the actual problem.

Unfortunately, even Jean or Bernie cannot bend the laws of physics.

[smitten]

Unfortunately, even Jean or Bernie cannot bend the laws of physics.

No, but they can change the rules of F1.

[KnucklesAgain]

I disagree. I think that DRS works.

Much as I would like to harp on about how it doesn't translate to road car technology etc, it has improved the show. And if everything was about how it relays to road cars then you'd have to get rid of front wings!

Turkey, perhaps, was the first time that we have seen a case where it made overtaking substantially easier but Turkey has always had overtaking because of the circuit design anyway. Added to this is that once Webber overtook Alonso he still managed to clear him enough to make DRS useless. I am sure they will modify the activation zone for next year and I am happy with that.

What I would prefer is that they remove the option to use it throughout quali and restrict it to the race.

I hope I won't have to repeat this daily for months now Unless you add additional rules for the gearing and/or remove the rev limit rules, allowing the DRS in qualifying is the only way to ensure that the teams choose gearing long enough to actually allow them to go faster in the DRS deployment zone. If DRS was forbidden in qualifying they would gear for no DRS, and then run into the limiter when they can deploy it in the race.

[KnucklesAgain]

What about hiving the driver in front an extra 1000rpm if the car behind is less than a second. He can use it to maintain a good gap and the guy behind won't be able to close in so easily. Atleast the prey has some sort of an advantage rather than being completely defenseless. Like a lion chasing a three legged gazelle.

You want to make it completely impossible to overtake? I think that's a new idea.

[Paste]

I will take what we currently have over watching one driver follow another driver for 70 laps because it's absolutely impossible to pass. Boy, I sure miss that.

[billm99uk]

Call me old fashioned but I watched F3 the other day and the slipstream and ability to race closely behind each other was perfect. Close enough to get a tow and the tow was enough to get alongside and to complete the overtake.

Might work at Monza, slightly trickier at Oulton Park

[pingu666]

im pretty sure the DRS was ment to be adjustable on the cars, some teams might need new wings possibly if they change the slot gap. im pretty sure the teams would moan about cost, even when they would introduce a new rear wing soonish anyways

[Hairpin]

Unfortunately, even Jean or Bernie cannot bend the laws of physics.

That is not necessary. There is plenty of open wheel formulas where the cars can follow close, they could have a sneak peak at those regs.
Overtaking is not supposed to be easy. A football game that ends 1-0 can be very exciting. An madman with a uncontrolled hate against diffusers and a solid axe would solve half the problems, position the top ten on the grid in reversed championship order would fix the rest. In Monaco, Vettel would start at 10th spot, Hamilton 9th. That would be a race. Vettel would probably not win, but I am not sure Kamui Kobayashi would be able to turn his pole into victory either.

[Ali_G]

Unfortunately, even Jean or Bernie cannot bend the laws of physics.

Whats that supposed to mean ?

The 2013 aerodynamic formula was to bring back ground effects which would have gone a long way to solving the problem as venturi's don't lose near as much downforce in turbulence as front wings do.

Instead they have stuck with DRS which was supposed to be the short term remedy until ground effects returned.


It's like giving a person a walking stick when a simple operation would mean they could run.

[MonzaF1]

--Adam Cooper wrote this in Auosport online:

No one criticised Lewis for having a go at Webber on the first lap. It's easy to say that in the DRS era you don't have to take risks at the start like you used to, but he's an instinctive racer, and he saw an opportunity. The problem was not only did it fail to come off, it cost him places to Alonso and Button, and left him with a lot of work to do---

If THIS is not an indictment of the current system that has made f1 no longer a sport, but that disgusting word that is directing us to become like the general American public:"entertainment" then what is?

Lewis is a RACER and now it is no longer allowed for a racer to be a racer.

In the end, Adam Cooper declares ---Some get pleasant surprises in the final stint as it all unfolds, and others nasty shocks. And isn't it fantastic to watch?---

No Mr. Cooper, it is NOT.

F1 has become stupid. Nobody can follow it any more, even Pirrelli said after the Turkish GP that they were NOT happy with four stops because it makes them look as if they produce INFERIOR TYRES and this is bad publiclty [you dont say?!!!!!] and besides qualifying becoming a joke, the biggest sin of all: penalizing RACERS for doing what motor racing is all about. Do we get excited about Jenson? Did we get excited about Prost? Of cpurse not.

We get excited about drivers that are QUICK abd MAKE overtaking: Senna, Rindt, Peterson, Mansell, Vettel, Lewis and so on.

And now? We are supposed to get all thrilled when a team makes the WRONG strategy and a wing opens up and the driver behond goes sailing by.

Imagine that, Lewis Hamilton WAS criticized Mr. Cooper, for being a RACER on Sunday. Instead as it is supposed to in f1, be an aadvantage, it is now a disdvantage.

This is what f1 has become and we are supposed to be FASCINATED?

I looked at th date, its not April 1st.

Edited by MonzaF1, 11 May 2011 - 01:41.

[pingu666]

people did kill the bridgestones abit, but with those tyres they droned around instead of falling off a cliff and dropping back.

Ive gotten excited about people going slowly to win, or try to

http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title

[Ross Stonefeld]

--Adam Cooper wrote this in Auosport online:

No one criticised Lewis for having a go at Webber on the first lap. It's easy to say that in the DRS era you don't have to take risks at the start like you used to, but he's an instinctive racer, and he saw an opportunity. The problem was not only did it fail to come off, it cost him places to Alonso and Button, and left him with a lot of work to do---

If THIS is not an indictment of the current system that has made f1 no longer a sport, but that disgusting word that is directing us to become like the general American public:"entertainment" then what is?

Lewis is a RACER and now it is no longer allowed for a racer to be a racer.

Ehh? He lost positions because he ran wide, not because of KERS, crappy tires, or DRS.

And under the 2011 rules there's more racing not less. You may not think it's quality racing, but there's more of it.

[ArtShelley]

It all comes down to what is it about F1 that you like the most?

For me personally, of the many things I like about F1 (the technology, the strategies, the fastest drivers etc), the one thing that stands out head and shoulders for me is the gladiatoral aspect of overtaking. This is what really gets me pumped watching. When I see an overtake between two cars where the pace difference isn't massive i.e not a RBR against a Virgin; I get a similar feeling as watching a goal scored in a football match between two top teams.

Now we bring the DRS into it. I don't mind the DRS, provided it's use is limited properly. Because it allows the car behind to not be too limited by the lead car's dirty air, hence get up close enough for the car behind to attempt an overtake by late braking on the inside; or around the outside etc.

However where the DRS zone is not set properly, and allows the car behind to simply outdrag the lead car down the straight with a massive pace difference - where's the excitement in that? Where's the fight between the drivers?

Even worse is how the Pirelli tyres affect this. I enjoy the strategy aspect, and the driver skill aspect that these tyres bring this season. However I'm disappointed that the overtaking aspect has taken a severe hit. Because not only is there no fun when a driver with decent tyres storms past a driver with shot tyres; even when both driver's tyres are in good condition, we can't be sure that an overtake is attributed - not to the skill of the overtaker - but rather the lead driver deciding not to fight hard because of the bigger objective of tyre preservation for the race (see Jenson and Lewis scorecard thread for related post).

So yes, with DRS and Pirelli tyres we are seeing a lot more overtaking. But how many of those can we say "wow, what an amazing overtake! what skill! what bravery! what guile!"

[blackonyx4]

Imagine that, Lewis Hamilton WAS criticized Mr. Cooper, for being a RACER on Sunday. Instead as it is supposed to in f1, be an aadvantage, it is now a disdvantage.

This is what f1 has become and we are supposed to be FASCINATED?

I looked at th date, its not April 1st.

Buddy, that WAS Formula 1 for exactly 16 years during refueling era.

For how many times did the drivers just cruise behind their rivals waiting for the dreaded pit stop to jump ahead of them?

And in 99% of the races in that era, nothing ever happened after last round of pit stops.

Was that okay for you?

If anything, it was as artificial as the rules we got today.


And it lacks the only thing 90+ percent of F1 viewers expect from the races. Entertainment.