114 replies to this topic

[Flat Black 84]

[quote name='Jerry Entin' date='May 16 2011, 20:36' post='5021754']

Rick Muther driven Coyote

The Hawk II Offy Muther drove at Indy in 1970 is a car I'd dearly love to see. Aesthetically, it was a work of art.

[Chris Frizell]

Absolutely Green with Envy. I will go there one day....what an amazing place. And Aaron, after speaking to him at Phillip Island I had an idea that he might have another gorgeous car or 10 in the stable, but to see that Eagle Offy restored like that just takes my breath away...awesome.

[E1pix]

Jerry, on a historical note, both our Eagle (#7225) and Aaron Lewis's (#7219) are 1972 models that debuted in 1973. There were only six 1973 Eagles manufactured, run by AAR's factory team until late in 1973, when some were sold off to privateers.
Jacques N. Dresang

I'm curious, do you mean that all six 1973 Eagles were only run by Gurney until late '73?

Or, in testing my personal RAM, were these the six 1973 Eagles?:

AAR — Bobby Unser (#48)
AAR — Jerry Grant (#?)
Patrick Racing — Gordon Johncock (#20)
Patrick Racing — Swede Savage (#40)
Patrick Racing — Graham McRae (#60)
Penske Racing — Mark Donohue (#66)

Or were some of these 1972 models?

Edited by E1pix, 17 May 2011 - 02:55.

[Chris Frizell]

A quick question, didn't pick it up before, but in the series of pix of Aaron's Eagle there is the #95 front engined roadster, which on second look appears to have a four cam Ford V8 in it. What car is that, and were front engined 4 cams common?

Cheers,
Chris

[xj13v12]

I'm curious, do you mean that all six 1973 Eagles were only run by Gurney until late '73?

Or, in testing my personal RAM, were these the six 1973 Eagles?:

AAR — Bobby Unser (#48)
AAR — Jerry Grant (#?)
Patrick Racing — Gordon Johncock (#20)
Patrick Racing — Swede Savage (#40)
Patrick Racing — Graham McRae (#60)
Penske Racing — Mark Donohue (#66)

Or were some of these 1972 models?

The 1972 cars have chassis number starting with 72. Therefore my 7219 is a 1972 model HOWEVER it did not make the track until 1973 along with a batch of cars. They already incorporated some small changes from the original specs but they are not the same as a 1973 model. I have a full list of 1972 cars produced somewhere. The McRae car you see above was mostly run by Wally Dallanbach including some wins.

My mate Dave Thomas owns the Ford Watson Roadster. This was built by Watson and Co (including Dave) as a copy of the Don Branson car that attempted to qualify in 1965 (I think). It is in that roadsters book by Scalzo double page spread photo pp 174-175. Anyway that original car was converted back to Offy and this car was manufactured by the original Watson shop quite some time ago. It had no competition history in period but is a genuine Watson, what else can you call it? This was the only example of trying the Ford in a Roadster that I know of but I am no expert either.

[Chris Frizell]

The 1972 cars have chassis number starting with 72. Therefore my 7219 is a 1972 model HOWEVER it did not make the track until 1973 along with a batch of cars. They already incorporated some small changes from the original specs but they are not the same as a 1973 model. I have a full list of 1972 cars produced somewhere. The McRae car you see above was mostly run by Wally Dallanbach including some wins.

My mate Dave Thomas owns the Ford Watson Roadster. This was built by Watson and Co (including Dave) as a copy of the Don Branson car that attempted to qualify in 1965 (I think). It is in that roadsters book by Scalzo double page spread photo pp 174-175. Anyway that original car was converted back to Offy and this car was manufactured by the original Watson shop quite some time ago. It had no competition history in period but is a genuine Watson, what else can you call it? This was the only example of trying the Ford in a Roadster that I know of but I am no expert either.

Thanks for that, what a beast. Imagine the noise of that engine on full song with both exhaust pipes 2 inches away from your left ear....pretty cool machine though, thanks for the info!

[E1pix]

The 1972 cars have chassis number starting with 72. Therefore my 7219 is a 1972 model HOWEVER it did not make the track until 1973 along with a batch of cars. They already incorporated some small changes from the original specs but they are not the same as a 1973 model. I have a full list of 1972 cars produced somewhere. The McRae car you see above was mostly run by Wally Dallanbach including some wins.

My mate Dave Thomas owns the Ford Watson Roadster. This was built by Watson and Co (including Dave) as a copy of the Don Branson car that attempted to qualify in 1965 (I think). It is in that roadsters book by Scalzo double page spread photo pp 174-175. Anyway that original car was converted back to Offy and this car was manufactured by the original Watson shop quite some time ago. It had no competition history in period but is a genuine Watson, what else can you call it? This was the only example of trying the Ford in a Roadster that I know of but I am no expert either.

Thank You for your reply.... overlooking Wally is a bit embarrassing.

Always curious about chassis IDs.... do I take "7219" to mean the 19th-ever Eagle Indy car?

AJ Watson was really something. We had the pleasure of spending much time with him and Leader Cards in 1992 (as sponsor Viper's photographer).

The Roadster was one fine car, AJ a legend and true gentleman.

Great Stuff, Thanks Again.

Edited by E1pix, 17 May 2011 - 05:30.

[xj13v12]

Thank You for your reply.... overlooking Wally is a bit embarrassing.

Always curious about chassis IDs.... do I take "7219" to mean the 19th-ever Eagle Indy car?

AJ Watson was really something. We had the pleasure of spending much time with him and Leader Cards in 1992 (as sponsor Viper's photographer).

The Roadster was one fine car, AJ a legend and true gentleman.

Great Stuff, Thanks Again.

No 7219 means chassis #19 of the 1972 Eagles produced out of 25 I think. 7303 would be #3 from the 1973 model etc. The AAR Gurney factory really made quite a high number of cars during this period and was hugely represented on the grid whereas McLaren for example made only 4 cars in 1972 and 6 cars in 1973 by comparison and none for customer order beyond the Penske team. Imagine churning out 20 F1 cars in a season!!!!! Mighty impressive when you think about it. AND these were fabulously well made cars of the highest quality and technical leading edge at that time. They also produced 11 cars in 1966-67 and instantly became the predominant make on the grid. Compare that to Lotus or Lola at the time. Again quite impressive as these were not throw together cars. They were quite complex (for the time) monocoque tubs and the workmanship holds up today as first rateaside from being simply beautiful as car art.

[E1pix]

No 7219 means chassis #19 of the 1972 Eagles produced out of 25 I think. 7303 would be #3 from the 1973 model etc. The AAR Gurney factory really made quite a high number of cars during this period and was hugely represented on the grid whereas McLaren for example made only 4 cars in 1972 and 6 cars in 1973 by comparison and none for customer order beyond the Penske team. Imagine churning out 20 F1 cars in a season!!!!! Mighty impressive when you think about it. AND these were fabulously well made cars of the highest quality and technical leading edge at that time. They also produced 11 cars in 1966-67 and instantly became the predominant make on the grid. Compare that to Lotus or Lola at the time. Again quite impressive as these were not throw together cars. They were quite complex (for the time) monocoque tubs and the workmanship holds up today as first rateaside from being simply beautiful as car art.

I knew AAR-Eagle was the primary chassis supplier for some time.... but agree that so many cars being built in one year is quite remarkable!

Considering the Eagle's complexities compared to just a few years before, all the more impressive. Wow!

Thanks Again!

Edited by E1pix, 17 May 2011 - 06:23.

[Jerry Entin]

Watson Roadster with 4 Cam Indy Ford engine
I had heard this chassis was one that had sat at Watson's for sometime. I had also heard the combination was tried to see how it would run. A very nice effort by all concerned.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 17 May 2011 - 07:03.

[xj13v12]

Watson Roadster with 4 Cam Indy Ford engine
I had heard this chassis was one that had sat at Watson's for sometime. I had also heard the combination was tried to see how it would run. A very nice effort by all concerned.

One of the people involved was Willie Davis who did the job on the original car in 1965. The car had failed to qualify so they were sitting around wondering what to do for the rest of the month. They asked if the engine swap would constitute a significant enough technical change to satisfy the criteria and were given the go ahead. Sadly the car still didn't qualify but a little piece of Indy history was made. I am sure there is more to the story than this brief outline.

[xj13v12]

One of the people involved was Willie Davis who did the job on the original car in 1965. The car had failed to qualify so they were sitting around wondering what to do for the rest of the month. They asked if the engine swap would constitute a significant enough technical change to satisfy the criteria and were given the go ahead. Sadly the car still didn't qualify but a little piece of Indy history was made. I am sure there is more to the story than this brief outline.

I just checked The Watson Years and the car was chassis #16 run by Roger Ward 1963 #1 Kaiser Aluminum. Branson and Grim tried the car in 1965.

[Gokart Mozart]

I'm curious, do you mean that all six 1973 Eagles were only run by Gurney until late '73?

Or, in testing my personal RAM, were these the six 1973 Eagles?:

AAR — Bobby Unser (#48)
AAR — Jerry Grant (#?)
Patrick Racing — Gordon Johncock (#20)
Patrick Racing — Swede Savage (#40)
Patrick Racing — Graham McRae (#60)
Penske Racing — Mark Donohue (#66)

Or were some of these 1972 models?

AAR had six 1973 models, i.e. 7301-7306 raced in-house until late in 1973. The models starting in 72 were of 1972 origin, though most sold in 1973 to privateers, thus being a step behind the factory team, though some squads made the 7200 series nearly as quick as the AAR factory squad.

Thus, 7219 is the 19th in number, but there was no 7213 for reasons of bad luck, so it was really the 18th off of the line.

Edited by Gokart Mozart, 17 May 2011 - 19:51.

[E1pix]

AAR had six 1973 models, i.e. 7301-7306 raced in-house until late in 1973. The models starting in 72 were of 1972 origin, though most sold in 1973 to privateers, thus being a step behind the factory team, though some squads made the 7200 series nearly as quick as the AAR factory squad.

Great info, Thanks, Jacques!

[Gokart Mozart]

Great info, Thanks, Jacques!

No problem!

[Jerry Entin]

Paul Jay and Jacques Dresang and Rick Dresang and their 1972 Gurney Eagle Indy car
While starting the car at home, Rick Dresang was accidentally burnt. He was a trooper and never complained about his injuries at the track.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 19 May 2011 - 08:42.

[Levin68]

A search of the forum yielded no results, so can I ask in this context of the 500's winning cars what happened to Mario's 1969 Brawner Hawk such that the museum exhibits a replica? I had an impression, maybe very mistaken, that all winning cars were acquired by the IMS.

[B Squared]

A search of the forum yielded no results, so can I ask in this context of the 500's winning cars what happened to Mario's 1969 Brawner Hawk such that the museum exhibits a replica? I had an impression, maybe very mistaken, that all winning cars were acquired by the IMS.

I believe the Smithsonian owns the real car.

[RA Historian]

I believe the Smithsonian owns the real car.

I believe Brian is quite correct. I saw the Brawner Hawk at the Smithsonian a few years ago.
Tom

[Jerry Entin]

AJ Watson sitting on the pit wall with former crew member Bob Koch
George Lyons Watson Roadster in front of the boys.


George Lyons running his Watson Roadster at the Speedway.


photos: George Lyons collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 20 May 2011 - 01:08.

[T54]

Jerry, thanks for the great pictures and report! I wish I had been there but we had too much work to get our own car ready to go to the "other" Indy 100th anniversary celebration at Goodwood.

As far as the Eagles, it is quite easy to tell a 1972 model, of which 30 were made (Dan Gurney and I own the last two, that were assembled only a few years ago) and the subsequent 1973 and 1974:
1972: the tubs are curved on their sides and the tub's shape is tapered, the thicker part at the radiator openings. The noses are long and have square rubber inserts for the top wishbones connections with the shock absorbers.
All the customer cars sold in 1972 and 1973 received this configuration.
1973 cars were only used by the woks and feature a shorter nose, flat sides and straight tub sides, not tapered. Also the rubber pieces on the nose are triangular.
1974 customer cars receive the 1973 upgrades, while the works cars receive a new oil cooler housing on the left side of the tub, plus lots of aerodynamic devices not seen on the customer cars.

it is a bit difficult to have a 100% perfect record of all the 1972, 1973 and 1974 Eagles because unfortunately over the years, some documents were lost or discarded to make room for Toyota projects, and I for one, was able to save the 1971 through 1975 Offy engine records recorded by engine man John Miller (blocks and crankcases numbers, where they raced, what broke...) that were unceremoniously thrown in the bin. Some day all will come into place...

Thanks to enthusiasts such as Jacques Dresang, Walter Goodwin, my occasional pen pal Aaron Lewis, Chuck haines and many others for their love of these beautifully engineered and beautifully built cars, that dominated Indy car racing for nearly 4 years.

[Levin68]

Thanks gentlemen for the clarification about the 1969 Indy-winning Brawner. Google can't seem to find it but TNF can!

[biercemountain]

Great pictures...
Paul

I finally got the pictures off my phone. Sorry about the quality. Shooting through a window on a busy NY street aren't exactly ideal circumstances.

[Jerry Entin]

Perfect Circle Miller

Michael Ferner's main man enjoying the Vintage Indy Gathering


photos: Rick Knapp

Edited by Jerry Entin, 20 May 2011 - 14:50.

[Flat Black 84]

That machine is clean, simple and classic. What a beaut!

[E1pix]

I finally got the pictures off my phone. Sorry about the quality. Shooting through a window on a busy NY street aren't exactly ideal circumstances.

Now this is race marketing! IZOD may go down in history if they keep it up.

[Jerry Entin]

Perfect Circle Miller stretching it's legs.


photo: Rick Knapp

Edited by Jerry Entin, 20 May 2011 - 15:21.

[biercemountain]

I finally got the pictures off my phone. Sorry about the quality. Shooting through a window on a busy NY street aren't exactly ideal circumstances.

I'm guessing this is Bobby Marshman's car but with livery from a later race. The display said it's from the '64 race but maybe someone got it all wrong.

[xj13v12]

I'm guessing this is Bobby Marshman's car but with livery from a later race. The display said it's from the '64 race but maybe someone got it all wrong.

What?? Try Lloyd Ruby 1966 Eagle.

[Peter Leversedge]

I had the chance to visited the Museum a long time ago [ while in the US in 1981] and as Jerry Entin said to say it is fabulous is a understatement

[biercemountain]

What?? Try Lloyd Ruby 1966 Eagle.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Jerry Entin]

Perfect Circle Miller
One more view for Michael Ferner.

photo: Ben Scheiwe

Edited by Jerry Entin, 26 May 2011 - 13:42.

[Michael Ferner]

Thanks, Jerry! Made my day

[thatguy0101]

I'm guessing this is Bobby Marshman's car but with livery from a later race. The display said it's from the '64 race but maybe someone got it all wrong.

AFAIK, Marshman's Indy Lotus is 29/2, the car that Gurney crashed in '63 practice, in the Barber museum (Alabama).

[Jerry Entin]

Tom Malloy's 1935 Miller Indy Ford

Edited by Jerry Entin, 30 May 2011 - 07:52.

[arttidesco]

The Famous Borg-Warner Trophy Ron Mack next to trophy

AJ Foyt has won this 4 times as a driver. I was told some trivia about this trophy today.

In 1938 the trophy was first given to the winner of the Indy 500, this was also the same year the pace car was given to the winner and also the first year that Milk was drank by the winner in Victory Lane.

I read somewhere that Louis Meyer was the first winner of the Borg Warner trophy, the first to drink 'butter'milk in Victory Lane and first to win the Pace Car in 1936 can anyone reliably confirm this is correct ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses which will be credited in my Borg Warner Trophy blog on Sunday

[Tim Murray]

Everything I can find on the net says that the Borg-Warner Trophy was first presented in 1936, including Wiki, Borg-Warner themsleves and this useful site:

http://www.racer.com...article/190227/

which also says that Meyer was the first to drink the milk, but doesn't give the year. According to Track Dog in this earlier thread:

The milk in Victory Lane tradition started in 1936, when Louis Meyer asked for a cold glass of buttermilk after winning; somebody got the idea to make it a regular feature after that, and except for Emmo in 1993, it has been ever since. Emmo drank orange juice because he had a huge orange farm in Brazil and was making his oown juice. He was so roundly booed that he decided to drink the milk after all...but ony after he took a swig of OJ...


Dan

However, in another thread there is a suggestion that the year may have been 1933:

Indy 500 and milk...

[B Squared]

You are correct on all three counts. From available Indianapolis Motor Speedway archives.

Louis Meyer started the tradition of drinking milk (buttermilk at the time) in victory lane at the 1936 Indy 500 race and following the suggestion of former race winner, Tommy Milton, that year he became the first driver to receive the Pace Car as part of the race winnings.

THE BORG-WARNER TROPHY
The Borg-Warner Trophy is one of the most coveted trophies in the world of sports. While it pays tribute to many of the most revered drivers in auto racing history year-round, during the Month of May it becomes the focal for the drivers attempting to qualify for the Indianapolis 500-Mile Race, a reminder of the glory and tradition associated with winning the fabled event.
With victory at the Indianapolis 500 comes the honor of having one’s face sculpted onto the 72-year-old trophy. Separate squares are affixed to its sterling-silver body, on which each winner’s face, name and winning year are permanently etched. A silversmith is commissioned each year to create the new champion’s portrait/sculpture in bas-relief for placement on the trophy.
In 1935, the Borg-Warner Automotive Company (now called BorgWarner) commissioned designer Robert J. Hill and Spaulding-Gorham, Inc., of Chicago, to create the trophy at a cost of $10,000.
Unveiled at a 1936 dinner hosted by then-Speedway owner Eddie Rickenbacker, the Borg-Warner Trophy was officially declared the annual prize for Indianapolis 500 victors. It was first presented that same year to champion Louis Meyer, who remarked, “Winning the Borg-Warner Trophy is like winning an Olympic medal.”
The trophy was refurbished in 1992 and is valued at more than $1 million.
Today, 94 faces grace the trophy’s squares. The faces date back to Ray Harroun, winner of the first Indianapolis 500 in 1911, and include two sets of dual victors (one driver started the race and the other finished it) for 1924 and 1941. Four-time champions A.J. Foyt (1961, ‘64, ‘67, ‘77), Al Unser (1970, ‘71, ‘78, ‘87) and Rick Mears (1979, ‘84, ‘88, ‘91) are the only drivers to have their faces appear more than three times on the trophy. Mears is the only one of those three to have a new likeness rendered for each of his four victories. Tom Sneva (1983) is the only champion who appears on the trophy wearing his eyeglasses, by his request.
Besides displaying Indianapolis 500 champions, the trophy features a 24-karat gold head portrait of the late Speedway Owner and President Anton “Tony” Hulman Jr. in tribute to his rejuvenation of the track and the Indianapolis 500 after World War II. Hulman’s image was added in 1988.
The last driver to have his likeness placed on the original trophy was Bobby Rahal in 1986, as all the squares had been filled. A new base was added in 1987 and it was filled to capacity following Gil de Ferran’s victory in 2003. For 2004, BorgWarner commissioned a new base that will not be filled to capacity until 2034.
Since 1988, an 18-inch tall replica of the trophy, a “Baby Borg,” has been crafted in sterling silver for presentation to the champion. A new tradition began with the 1997 winner as BorgWarner also presented the winning car owner with a “Baby Borg.”
Each May, the Borg-Warner Trophy is featured at a number of Indianapolis 500 events, including the public drivers’ meeting at the track, the 500 Festival Parade and the post-race Victory Celebration. Immediately after each race, the trophy is hoisted into Victory Circle with the winning car and driver for photographs.
***
Borg-Warner Trophy Specifications:
●Trophy height without base: 52 inches

[B Squared]

However, in another thread there is a suggestion that the year may have been 1933:
Indy 500 and milk...

Donald Davidson and Rick Shaffer have written two paragraphs on page 88 of Autocourse: Official History of the Indianapolis 500 in regards to the buttermilk first being drank in Victory Lane in 1936. The tradition was dropped from 1947-1955, when "water from Wilbur" (Shaw) was the drink. The milk was back in '56. Shaw died in a plane crash in October, 1954, so possibly the '55 water drink was in honor of the much missed Wilbur.

[Tim Murray]

Thanks for the clarification, Brian.

[arttidesco]

Thanks for the clarification Tim & Brian

[arttidesco]

One further question on the Borg Warner Trophy did the Johnny Parsons spelling mistake ever get corrected again contradictory evidence exists as to whether this happened or not ?

Edited by arttidesco, 27 May 2011 - 12:50.

[Tim Murray]

Here's a photo, taken in April 2005, which shows that at that time the error was still there:

http://www.flickr.co...lynn/231349569/

[arttidesco]

Thanks for your time and trouble Tim

[Eaglenindy]

Even the Feds were there!

Verne Trester and Parnelli

Parnelli Jones being fitted into the 1967 Gerhardt

Greg Elliff fitting PJ into the Gerhardt




The only Indycar that Jimmy Clark ever drove that wasn't a Lotus!!!!
1967 Rex Mays 300 @ Riverside

Master Fabricator Richard Fried of Palladin Services and ex-Penske engine guru
Chuck Cornellison of VDS Racing Engines

NOVI engine and supercharger

NOVI being started under the stands. Note: Because of the NOVI being FWD
the starter was inserted on the left side!

AJ Watson and the current owner of the Watson roadster

Ex-Patrick Racing (Graham McRae) 73 Eagle/Offy

PJ bringing the Gerhardt back to the pits

Bruce Linsmeyer in his ex-STP/Parnelli Jones/Firestone (Joe Leonard 68 Polewinner) Lotus 56-1 Turbine

72 Eagle/Offy later modified by Vatis chief mechanic Bill Finley and John Barnes into what is known as the "FLEAGLE"

70 Brawner Scorpion ex McCluskey/Pollard Car is in 1971 livery

73 Eagle Offy Mark Donohue's last Indycar

(L) 66 Mecom Lola/Offy supercharged
ex-Roger Ward (his final Indy ride)
® Andy Hillberg of www.marchives.com in his 87 March/Cosworth

a few more on my Flickr site: http://www.flickr.co...s/20164145@N06/

Edited by Eaglenindy, 20 June 2011 - 18:21.

[arttidesco]

Top pics thanks for sharing

[RA Historian]

Bruce Linsmeyer in his ex-STP/Parnelli Jones/Firestone (Joe Leonard 68 Polewinner) Lotus 56-1 Turbine

I believe that it has been well established that the Linsmeyer Lotus 56 is a copy and not the real thing. The actual Lotus 56-1 is the property of Parnelli Jones and last I heard was still in his private collection.

When the Linsmeyer 56 was at Milwaukee about three years ago for a demo run before the Indy Car race the Linsmeyer people told me directly that their car was made up from spare parts and newly manufactured parts and as such is not an original Lotus 56. A TNF thread on the Lotus 56 also contained this information.

Edited by RA Historian, 28 May 2011 - 01:09.

[Jerry Entin]

A couple of the Vintage roadsters enjoying the track
Dick Dittman's Hinkle Special #5 and the Novi #15.
Eaglenindy: The current owner of the Watson roadster is George Lyons. Welcome to the Forum and thanks for posting your great pictures for us to enjoy.

Tom: It must have been 1936 not 1938 for the Trophy. I must have been mistaken as to what I thought he said. The fellow who told me worked in the Museum and was very knowledgeable. It is my fault for the wrong date.

Lotus 56 Indy Turbine powered car
I will also state that the Lotus 56 Turbine is beautifully presented, whether it be a reproduction or a clone made of spare parts or a real car, it was at Indy to be run and seen and appreciated by all.
I would also state that the workmanship on this car is second to none.

Top photo: Rick Knapp

Edited by Jerry Entin, 03 June 2011 - 10:15.

[E1pix]

Man, this is so cool I'm tempted to jump in the car right now and haul back there for the 100th.

Only 1,115 miles...

Thanks for the photos, Eaglenindy, Awesome!

[Jerry Entin]

A few of the Vintage Roadster on the Track at Indy
You have to remember that the Vintage Indy group has come to Indy at their own expense to show their cars to their friends and all the spectators who were able to attend this event.

It was really fantastic to be able to be a part of their Vintage Indy gathering.


photo: Rick Knapp