2146 replies to this topic

[Kubiccia]

Surprised no ones mentioned the fastest times from testing for both are much the same, sure it's a thin thread to base any judgements on but if Nico had of been faster I'm sure someone would have mentioned it ...

Actually, Nico arguably impressed most because his 22,9 was on a 12 lap stint while Schumi's was on only 7.

[MCh000]

Actually, Nico arguably impressed most because his 22,9 was on a 12 lap stint while Schumi's was on only 7.

It doesn't mean that Shumacher didn't have fuel for 12. Maybe they saw the pattern in tyre degradation compared it Rosberg's and decided not to waste time continuing the run. Who knows? I don't

[Rikhart]

Not so sure about that Nico will be determined to show he's number one in the team and Michael is racing against the clock, his age. It will be interesting to say the least, ruling out midfield mistakes with a better car will provide better consistency for Schumacher on points basis but Rosberg will also be found more in the front of the field.

I´d say that if one of the two is "racing against the clock", it would be the one with zero wins.

[ivand911]

It doesn't mean that Shumacher didn't have fuel for 12. Maybe they saw the pattern in tyre degradation compared it Rosberg's and decided not to waste time continuing the run. Who knows? I don't

Yes, Michael stint was interrupted by the lunch.

abu says:
March 5, 2012 at 12:46 am
More or less exactly like Rosberg’s from yesterday. Also, his 01:22.9 laptime (identical to Rosberg from yesterday) must have been set in the same fuel load, even though Michael did less laps. Let’s hope Michael can recapture some of his old speed in qualifying – he’s going to need it this year…
http://abulafiaf1.wo...sting-round-up/

[rog]

Actually, Nico arguably impressed most because his 22,9 was on a 12 lap stint while Schumi's was on only 7.

It was a 13 lap stint. 13 timed laps +Outlap/Inlap.

http://abulafiaf1.fi...stint-03-03.png

[spacekid]

Its not too long now until we have real times to debate. For what its worth I thibk Nico is simply a superb qualifier, and can pull out quicker fast laps when required. I also wonder if he was able to prepare the tyres into an optimal operating range on the out lap better than Michael? Just a thought.

Those times were set as part of race sims, so I wouldn't infer too much about quali pace from them. That said, it must be very gratifying for the team to have two drivers providing such consistent data! Even if varying track conditions probably mean it was a bit of a fluke.

[Paco]

Too funny...

Trying to read into preseason testing how's ahead. The team is maximizing every opportunity to understand the car, the tires, fuel loads etc. Trying to read into driver comparisons is just plan silly, other then people track side who can interpret how they "look" on track compared i.e. sliding around, twitching etc.

As for NR vs. MS in 2012.

Michael doesn't have anything to prove. He's already done so and then some. Even last season, he was better in the majority of races Sunday then Nico so it shows even the quick Nico still couldn't hold a stick to MS most Sundays.

If the 2012 Pirelli's are more to Schumi's liking and he gets to grip with getting them to work properly on Saturday, Nico doesn't stand a chance of finishing ahead of Michael in the points standing in 2012.

As for NR in 2012. To me, it's more of an important year for him. He`s gotta keep his qualifying edge if he is stay in a top team. If he falls behind MS, any chance of landing a better ride will be gone. He'll end up staying at Merc and hoping they become a top 2 team in the next few years. If he keeps his edge and outqualifies MS at least 65% of the time and gets more points then MS, maybe he will get a call up to Ferrari.. then again.. is that really a call up these days.. or the 2nd seat at RedBull.

So 2012 is really more about Nico and his moment in the sun to shine and maybe get a call up to the Bull then really what Michael does. Michael may have a few more years in him and the odd wins but he will end out his career where he is.

I personally think, Nico will get the 1st Merc win, but MS will end up with more Mercedes wins and more points then Nico by the time he retires for good during his tenure at Mercedes.

[spacekid]

I personally think, Nico will get the 1st Merc win, but MS will end up with more Mercedes wins and more points then Nico by the time he retires for good during his tenure at Mercedes.

You're a lot more confident of multiple Merc wins this year than I am! I think either driver will have to have been lucky to get one this year.

[jav]

Year one (2010) Nico out did MS hands down. Year 2- MS made great improvements in race pace but Nico still beat him- but by far less. There can be no doubt that MS has been trending upward more so than Nico, and that trend supports an interesting season if not a role reversal.

I do agree that Nico hasn't shown a remarkable ability to elevate the car. To be fair- neither has "MS the second" . But that's really hard to judge because we don't know how good or bad W02 was. Certainly if the the car was inferior to Renaults', both MGP drivers did great. If the car was superior to Ferrari's- not so much. Likewise- you have Jensen Button, who for years was billed as a "par" driver until he wasn't. I don't believe he changed as much as the perception of him did.

Drivers and racing have changed. Some things like DRS/KERS/ and overtaking rules have reduced the significance of some skills- like qualifying and "race craft". This hasn't helped the likes of MS or Hamilton and I think Last year- Vettel had the distinct advantage of being able to pull out a large enough gap early on to take DRS out of the equation. I don't know that he'll be able to do that this year.. at least I hope not. If the front pack is tighter this season, I think the P1 spot will actually be disadvantaged.

It's goin to be a fun year and my hope for Schumi is to keep the trend going.

[Paco]

You're a lot more confident of multiple Merc wins this year than I am! I think either driver will have to have been lucky to get one this year.

LOL.. Not necessarily this year Basically, in Merc history until the point where Michael retires I do think with Ferrari maybe a bit on the back foot, if Merc can eek out some much as possible and keep they keep their races clean, Nico or MS stand a very good chance at a podium in the first 3-4 races.. then its a matter of luck and strategy if they are able to get to the top step. After about 4-5 races, I think it may be harder for them as Ferrari and Renault get up to speed. I wonder which mid pack team may surprise. I have a feeling Force India may be a thorn in Merc-Ferrari-Renaults side more then a few times this season.

Edited by Paco, 05 March 2012 - 21:08.

[ivand911]

LOL.. Not necessarily this year Basically, in Merc history until the point where Michael retires I do think with Ferrari maybe a bit on the back foot, if Merc can eek out some much as possible and keep they keep their races clean, Nico or MS stand a very good chance at a podium in the first 3-4 races.. then its a matter of luck and strategy if they are able to get to the top step. After about 4-5 races, I think it may be harder for them as Ferrari and Renault get up to speed. I wonder which mid pack team may surprise. I have a feeling Force India may be a thorn in Merc-Ferrari-Renaults side more then a few times this season.

Sauber, FI. First races are the best for surprise. If MGP drivers manage 2nd and 3rd row will be great. And if they can maintain the leaders pace or lose slightly. Last year they lose more than second per lap. If they can make this 0,4-0,5 sec per lap. Have to see where Lotus and Ferrari are.

[zyphro]

... After about 4-5 races, I think it may be harder for them as Ferrari and Renault get up to speed.

Why?

From what I remember from the 2010 season, in the second-half of the season Costa's upgrades brought Ferrari closer to Red Bull (along with Alonso's talent of course). But there's no reason to suggest why Mercedes GP can not move forward on the development front.

Edited by zyphro, 05 March 2012 - 21:22.

[eoin]

It will be hard for Schumacher to stay competitive with Rosberg unless he really improves his qualifying. If the grid is tight then been 4ths+ off in qualifying could half a dozen positions back at each race. Rosberg seems to have had better form in pre-season testing so he starts as a clear favourite in this duel.

[zyphro]

It will be hard for Schumacher to stay competitive with Rosberg unless he really improves his qualifying. If the grid is tight then been 4ths+ off in qualifying could half a dozen positions back at each race. Rosberg seems to have had better form in pre-season testing so he starts as a clear favourite in this duel.

[baddog]

About the 'Rosberg faster in testing' thing.. yeah its one of those 'everyone knows' memes that the antis have been trying to get going the last couple of days. Its flat out nonsense but that never stopped them before.

[eoin]

About the 'Rosberg faster in testing' thing.. yeah its one of those 'everyone knows' memes that the antis have been trying to get going the last couple of days. Its flat out nonsense but that never stopped them before.

I am far from anti Schumacher but Rosberg looked someone better in testing- not that that means much.

[zyphro]

I am far from anti Schumacher but Rosberg looked someone better in testing- not that that means much.

According to you it does: "Rosberg seems to have had better form in pre-season testing so he starts as a clear favourite in this duel".

[eoin]

Rosberg seems to have had better form in pre-season testing so he starts as a clear favourite in this duel

Look at what selective quoting can do.....

Schumacher has struggled in qualifying for two years. Rosberg seems to have had the better of winter testing. IMO he is the clear favourite IF we have a close grid.

[baddog]

Rosberg seems to have had the better of winter testing.

Why does he? Show your working

[as65p]

Why does he? Show your working

Uhh, and how that matters anywhichway. I can see the big argument still going, a bit into the season after MS trails Rosberg again how no way that could have been foreseen after testing.

[jj2728]

Seriously, who gives a rat's ass which driver did what during pre-season testing?

[baddog]

Seriously, who gives a rat's ass which driver did what during pre-season testing?

Well thats the point yes.. Except in the grossest case (one driver constantly crashing and going slowly) you cannot read a damned thing into it and people should stop being silly.

[LiJu914]

Why does he? Show your working

Well their times were pretty similiar during winter testing, except their respective race-sims. Rosbergs race-sim was way faster than MSC`s, indeed he had fastest race-sim of any driver in Barcelona. But as track conditions (morning vs. afternoon) and tyres (choice of compound + scrubbed vs. brand new) are a huge factor all that doesn`t need to mean too much.

Anyway: I already mentioned in another thread, that i wouldn`t be suprised if the gap would widen again in Rosberg`s favour. Right now everybody expects the field to be much closer together than last year. As i don`t think that MSC will overcome his quali-disadvantage, this could lead to even bigger handicap for MSC as more cars might place themselves between him and Nico on the starting grid - and he also might need more shots to make the cut in e.g. Q2 or a good Q3 position, which would result in another disadvantage regarding the tyre-situation...

Edited by LiJu914, 06 March 2012 - 09:49.

[Mastah]

It will be hard for Schumacher to stay competitive with Rosberg unless he really improves his qualifying. If the grid is tight then been 4ths+ off in qualifying could half a dozen positions back at each race.

Indeed. For example Nico outqualified Schumi at Hungaroring by 8 tenths two seasons in a row. If the field is as tight as it was in 2009, then Schumi can be in REAL trouble. In 2009 at Hungaroring in Q1 P1 (certain Nico R.) was only 1.1 second faster than P19. In Q2 the gap between P1 and P15 was only 1 second. You can do the math yourself and see how costly for Mercedes can be Schumi's underperformance in quali.

Personally I hope for maximum 2 seconds gap between 1st and 9th/10th team. That would mean driver's skill is back on pedestal and goodbye to situation, when you are better because your car farts better.

[ivand911]

Can we just wait to Q3? You think the grid will be tighter ,but MS/Nico difference will stay the same or become bigger? Q3 will show if I was right last year , when I said that in different conditions MS will behave differently. Last year, second half he just experimented. Because Q positions was not so important. If it is different this year and he will focus more on Q. Simple. He will start first Q focussed on it , because he don't know what is the game this year. Even if he was behind Nico(in Q with bigger time differnce) in the second half of the year, he still have better races than him and better race pace. With Abu Dhabi only where Nico have better pace. Race pace was the king last year(with DRS too).

Edited by ivand911, 06 March 2012 - 10:09.

[Pits]

I also believe that Schumacher can still do it. Sure, he may have lost some speed compared to his first carriere, but he is still one of the best racers of the field. The tires, EBD and maybe age are hurting his one lap speed most, because of his different driving style compared to most of the other drivers. If the rules allow him to drive the car the way he likes he will be fast.(er than Rosberg)

[LiJu914]

Can we just wait to Q3? You think the grid will be tighter ,but MS/Nico difference will stay the same or become bigger?

I don´t see a contradiction there. The former is mainly related to the competitiveness of the cars the latter related to the drivers.

[ivand911]

I don´t see a contradiction there. The former is mainly related to the competitiveness of the cars the latter related to the drivers.

We have seen difference in Q between MS and Nico from 0(Canada) to 1 sec. So, what is the real difference? I think if the car is more competitive(easy to drive, heat the tires easily) they both will do better and closer.
Still new season will give some answers for the last season.

[LiJu914]

We have seen difference in Q between MS and Nico from 0(Canada) to 1 sec. So, what is the real difference? I think if the car is more competitive(easy to drive, heat the tires easily) they both will do better and closer.
Still new season will give some answers for the last season.

Well that´s a different story. The expected quali-gap between NR and MSC was of course just an assumption and mainly based on the experience of the last two seasons. If MSC will be able to improve his Quali-performance in such a way that it at least doesn´t compromise his chances in the races too much....than good for him. But if it doesn´t (which would be the case if the gap stays the same as in 2011 and 2011) the scenario might very well unfold as described.

[Mastah]

Q3 will show if I was right last year , when I said that in different conditions MS will behave differently. Last year, second half he just experimented. Because Q positions was not so important. If it is different this year and he will focus more on Q. Simple. He will start first Q focussed on it , because he don't know what is the game this year.

Ross Brawn:

“In qualifying, he really can get the most out of the car. Nico comes closer to its limits,” he is quoted by Germany’s Sport Bild.

“I think we’ve often seen him in a better qualifying position than where I would expect the car to be.

http://www.f1zone.ne...alifying/12571/

Why are you still trying to invent excuses, when Brawn and Schumi don't use any? Nico is faster in qualifying because he's faster on one lap with fumes, the end of discussion. If you want to know why the difference between Merc drivers is smaller in races, answer this question "why was Jarno Trulli brilliant qualifier and only good racer" yourself.

[ivand911]

Yeah, Yeah, will see. What you expect him to say? To tell MS strategy?

From the same article:
But Brawn thinks a few cards could fall in seven time world champion Schumacher’s favour in 2012.
“It could be that the new Pirelli tyres help him because you don’t have to be quite as gentle with them as you did with the 2011 generation,” said the Briton.

[LiJu914]

Yeah, Yeah, will see. What you expect him to say? To tell MS strategy?

From the same article:
But Brawn thinks a few cards could fall in seven time world champion Schumacher’s favour in 2012.
“It could be that the new Pirelli tyres help him because you don’t have to be quite as gentle with them as you did with the 2011 generation,” said the Briton.

I doubt any driver was "gentle" with the tyres in last year´s qualifying - they still went flat out there. And in the races the tyres didn´t seem to work in Rosberg´s advantange compared to MSC...

[ivand911]

I doubt any driver was "gentle" with the tyres in last year´s qualifying - they still went flat out there. And in the races the tyres didn´t seem to work in Rosberg´s advantange compared to MSC...

It is Ross words. Maybe he means something?

[LiJu914]

It is Ross words. Maybe he means something?

All he´s saying is that MSC might feel more comfortable with the new rear-tyres - that doesn´t mean that Nico won´t be more comfortable with them likewise.

The experience of the last two years was that Nico usually had an advantage when you didn´t have to nurse your tyres (2010: Quali+Races, 2011:Quali) and that this advantage usually didn´t exist when you did have to nurse them (2011: races).

Edited by LiJu914, 06 March 2012 - 12:25.

[walkindude]

Even though I am a huge Michael Fan I think Rosberg will be farther ahead than he was in 2011.The cars seem so close that qualifying will matter even more and more often than not,Schumi will have a few cars between him and Rosberg.

[tommyhjortasen]

Nowdays I have a soft spot for MS, wants him to have some sort of success.
I think and hope that he will claim a podium this year, and that before Nico.

[tormave]

Even though I am a huge Michael Fan I think Rosberg will be farther ahead than he was in 2011.The cars seem so close that qualifying will matter even more and more often than not,Schumi will have a few cars between him and Rosberg.

Seconded.

Last season Schumi could easily afford losing close to a full second to Nico in qualifying and only lose a couple of grid positions as a result. One second in 2012 could be the difference of not making it into Q2 and landing in top-5. If Caterham has really closed the gap to the midfield there's no free Q2 passes being dealt out anymore to the other teams.

[Mastah]

Yeah, Yeah, will see. What you expect him to say? To tell MS strategy?

From the same article:
But Brawn thinks a few cards could fall in seven time world champion Schumacher’s favour in 2012.
“It could be that the new Pirelli tyres help him because you don’t have to be quite as gentle with them as you did with the 2011 generation,” said the Briton.

To tell how it really is - that there is no imaginery strategy, it's just a lack of speed in quali trim. I have never, ever heard there are differences in approach to set-up, except one GP weekend. That was Hungary 2010, where Schumi was well and truly beaten by Nico.

Funny. Indestructible 2010 Bridgestones were too understeery for Schumi. 2011 Pirellis were too fragile for him. What will be wrong with 2012 tyres ?

[ivand911]

To tell how it really is - that there is no imaginery strategy, it's just a lack of speed in quali trim. I have never, ever heard there are differences in approach to set-up, except one GP weekend. That was Hungary 2010, where Schumi was well and truly beaten by Nico.

Funny. Indestructible 2010 Bridgestones were too understeery for Schumi. 2011 Pirellis were too fragile for him. What will be wrong with 2012 tyres ?

Good question. I am working now on the list with excuses.

[ivand911]

[Kubiccia]

I posted, in another thread, the rate of competitiveness for Schumacher in his Mercedes years, regarding qualifying.

In both years, he was 7 out of 19 times competitive(assuming he would be competitive in Belgium 2011). By competitive I mean faster than Nico(really faster and not tire strategy related as Monza 2011) or no more than a tenth slower.

Tbh, it's not that bad for an old guy. The only real problem is that Schumi avoid the +0,3s gap

Also, don't expect much from EBD ban because they didn't have it in 2010 and the rate was the same as 2011

[Mastah]

Some good food for thought for Schumacher's fans and critics:
http://www.guardian....cedes-interview

Ross Brawn - "Nico just seems to have more of an intuitive ability to get the most out of the tyres on one lap." "At the moment Michael hasn't understood how he can get that."

ivan, once again Brawn said as it is. Will you finally give up on your "bold" theories about tyre strategies in quali and other silly stuff like this

Yeah, 8th , one place behind Nico. Nice. I think he just try to save the tires with not pushing to hard. Push tyres and you will have less tyre in the race.

Setup difference, different way of using tyres. He was 0,8 sec slower in India too, how the race finished?

I think it is called: make the best result in Q with the least effort and using less tyres. This is what I think. He and Nico have completely different set up for sure.

On the radio they tell him that he need 1:40.5 to stay in Q3 and he did it. Why they will tell him that target when they know that Nico can do 1:39.4? Because they have different strategy. He wasn't fighting Nico, he was doing his thing. If they wanted 1:39.4 they just have to set up the car differently. But, they didn't wanted 1:39 in the Q. They set up their car for different Q times.
We can compare Nico and Michael if they drive one car and to see who will make the best lap with it. Not tyre savings, all out. Or even if they drive their cars, but with the purpose to set the best possible lap. Not thinking about race afterwards.

and accept the real reason?

Ross Brawn - "Nico just seems to have more of an intuitive ability to get the most out of the tyres on one lap." "At the moment Michael hasn't understood how he can get that."

[Pits]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Nico is a very good qualifier. But the difference between Schumacher and Rosberg isn't as big as it seems if you count in the troubles he had and strategie. It seems that you are over exaggerating a little Mastah.

Sure Nico did a better job overall in Quali, Michael did a better job on raceday. I think, and Brawn confirmes this, that the tires don't suit Michael's excepptional driving style, especially in quali. Also I don't think it will be a lot better this year because of the still rapidly degrading Pirelli's. But maybe Schumacher can surprise us, we will see.

[hammibal]

I doubt any driver was "gentle" with the tyres in last year´s qualifying - they still went flat out there. And in the races the tyres didn´t seem to work in Rosberg´s advantange compared to MSC...

Exactly and what would be the excuse for 2010 bearing in mind the qualifying difference was very similar to last year

[hammibal]

It is Ross words. Maybe he means something?

If Schumacher was looking to save tyres why would he constantly do more laps in qualifying than Rosberg in order to get into Q3?

[hammibal]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Nico is a very good qualifier. But the difference between Schumacher and Rosberg isn't as big as it seems if you count in the troubles he had and strategie. It seems that you are over exaggerating a little Mastah.

Sure Nico did a better job overall in Quali, Michael did a better job on raceday. I think, and Brawn confirmes this, that the tires don't suit Michael's excepptional driving style, especially in quali. Also I don't think it will be a lot better this year because of the still rapidly degrading Pirelli's. But maybe Schumacher can surprise us, we will see.

I wonder if in Schumacher's earlier career he was helped because the tyres didnt help the other drivers?

[Pits]

If Schumacher was looking to save tyres why would he constantly do more laps in qualifying than Rosberg in order to get into Q3?

When Schumacher left in 2006 he had tailor made tires which suite his driving style, he needs a strong front-end to get the optimum.
In 2010 there were smaller front tires, in 2011 and probably 2012 the tires go off to fast. I think if it wasn't for those you would see a different picture.
On the other hand circumstances are the same for everybody, so he just needs to adapt if he want's to improve quali.

[Pits]

I wonder if in Schumacher's earlier career he was helped because the tyres didnt help the other drivers?

Well it didn't work against him, that's for sure. But Micheline did the same for the other teams, so it was still equal opportunity.
It's not about the advantage, it's about the tires he excells in.

[olliek88]

And from the same article -

I don't know if he will find the difference in qualifying, because Nico is very special in those circumstances, one of the best I've seen.

Ross Brawn doesn't throw compliments like that about without meaning it.

[zyphro]

Schumacher has never really been that good a qualifier. Barrichello used to beat him often.

But quali isn't the definitive factor: remember points aren't awarded for putting a car on pole. Sure it puts you in a good position for the race win; but if your race pace is inconsistent then qualifying on pole is useless.