4041 replies to this topic

[GlenP]

Well I'm sorry to say that you were both wrong given the information to hand at the time.

The fact you've subsequently proven right (or probably right!) is irrelevant frankly.

Ah. OK then. Despite that fact that we were right, we were wrong at the time?

To be honest, I've yet to be convinced that Hamilton has done the growing up that he needed to do - this year will reveal much.

[ayanate]

So setting spelin misstakes aside do you agree with the post?

Are you going to ever provide examples to back up your post?

I honestly believe there is nothing new I will bring with regards to JB's defiance of orders from the team. I genuinely assumed this was accepted; like a Mclaren being faster than an HRT around the Sepang circuit this weekend.

1. Turkey 2010, Jenson refusing to conserve fuel.
2. Hungary '11, told by the team to queue behind LH and he refused. Turned out to be the right decision so this is not a knock!
3. Aus 2010, came in and surprised the team. Obviously there was a plan laid out which JB decided to ignore, another good decision by him btw.


All said, whether you agree or disagree with this list, the bottomline is Lewis cannot let the first stint of Aus 2012 repeat itself. JB in front again is obviously going to be looking for the LH drop-off before pitting first, LH at this point is toast. Unless something unexpected happens to Button of course.

[robefc]

I honestly believe there is nothing new I will bring with regards to JB's defiance of orders from the team. I genuinely assumed this was accepted; like a Mclaren being faster than an HRT around the Sepang circuit this weekend.

1. Turkey 2010, Jenson refusing to conserve fuel.
2. Hungary '11, told by the team to queue behind LH and he refused. Turned out to be the right decision so this is not a knock!
3. Aus 2010, came in and surprised the team. Obviously there was a plan laid out which JB decided to ignore, another good decision by him btw.


All said, whether you agree or disagree with this list, the bottomline is Lewis cannot let the first stint of Aus 2012 repeat itself. JB in front again is obviously going to be looking for the LH drop-off before pitting first, LH at this point is toast. Unless something unexpected happens to Button of course.

Sigh

1. lewis slowed down, JB didn't speed up and has nothing to do with pit stops
3. was told they were ready when he was ready, did not surprise the team

[trogggy]

I honestly believe there is nothing new I will bring with regards to JB's defiance of orders from the team. I genuinely assumed this was accepted; like a Mclaren being faster than an HRT around the Sepang circuit this weekend.

1. Turkey 2010, Jenson refusing to conserve fuel.
2. Hungary '11, told by the team to queue behind LH and he refused. Turned out to be the right decision so this is not a knock!
3. Aus 2010, came in and surprised the team. Obviously there was a plan laid out which JB decided to ignore, another good decision by him btw.


All said, whether you agree or disagree with this list, the bottomline is Lewis cannot let the first stint of Aus 2012 repeat itself. JB in front again is obviously going to be looking for the LH drop-off before pitting first, LH at this point is toast. Unless something unexpected happens to Button of course.

None of your examples are anything like the situation last weekend. If they have an agreement (and we don't really know that for sure, or exactly what it is) then I expect he'll stick to it. As will his team-mate.
If he finds himself behind JB and pits to undercut him then we'll no doubt know if that's breaking an agreement fairly quickly.

[bauss]

I honestly believe there is nothing new I will bring with regards to JB's defiance of orders from the team. I genuinely assumed this was accepted; like a Mclaren being faster than an HRT around the Sepang circuit this weekend.

1. Turkey 2010, Jenson refusing to conserve fuel.
2. Hungary '11, told by the team to queue behind LH and he refused. Turned out to be the right decision so this is not a knock!
3. Aus 2010, came in and surprised the team. Obviously there was a plan laid out which JB decided to ignore, another good decision by him btw.


All said, whether you agree or disagree with this list, the bottomline is Lewis cannot let the first stint of Aus 2012 repeat itself. JB in front again is obviously going to be looking for the LH drop-off before pitting first, LH at this point is toast. Unless something unexpected happens to Button of course.

WORD

They really didnt have to wait so long to pit JB in Aus. to make a 2 stop strategy work.

Last year, they had a 2 stop...soft soft hard, and even then...Lewis came in on lap 14 or so. So what happened there and what happened in China last year is something the LH camp should probably not treat as coincidence.

Fool me once.... etc

Edited by bauss, 23 March 2012 - 15:24.

[ayanate]

Sigh

1. lewis slowed down, JB didn't speed up and has nothing to do with pit stops
3. was told they were ready when he was ready, did not surprise the team

1. Jenson ignored the call to conserve fuel, he admitted as much, come on.
3. I heard Martin Whitmarsh say the team was surprised.

These are what I heard on TV interviews after the races, whether there are transcripts of these interviews anywhere on the net, that I don't know.

[robefc]

1. Jenson ignored the call to conserve fuel, he admitted as much, come on.
3. I heard Martin Whitmarsh say the team was surprised.

These are what I heard on TV interviews after the races, whether there are transcripts of these interviews anywhere on the net, that I don't know.

What do you mean come on? His times slowed, Lewis's slowed far more on one particular lap, sure JB then took advantage but it was lewis's mistake that put them together on track.

MW was surprised that he decided to come in that early, they had already told him they were ready whenever he made the call.

I'm sorry, you can have whatever opinion you like of what lewis should do but these examples are ridiculous in themselves simply in respect of JB ignoring orders not to mention not addressing the point in question.

[sofarapartguy]

Sorry for OT, but.

I'm curious whether Alonso in his McLaren days ignored any team orders? Just to better understand the way Macca is working with their drivers.

[ayanate]

What do you mean come on? His times slowed, Lewis's slowed far more on one particular lap, sure JB then took advantage but it was lewis's mistake that put them together on track.

MW was surprised that he decided to come in that early, they had already told him they were ready whenever he made the call.

I'm sorry, you can have whatever opinion you like of what lewis should do but these examples are ridiculous in themselves simply in respect of JB ignoring orders not to mention not addressing the point in question.

Okay, maybe MW meant the team was surprised he made the call to come in and not that he surprised an unready team, happy now?

Let's not get bogged down by pitstops, my criticism of LH was that he needs to look out for himself more (His dad comes to mind again). Sometimes that might mean you go against the team's decisions during the race, as they are not always the best for the driver. I was trying to point out that JB manages to do this during races but it seems some folks don't agree, I'll leave there until it happens again.

[icecream_man]

Okay, maybe MW meant the team was surprised he made the call to come in and not that he surprised an unready team, happy now?

Let's not get bogged down by pitstops, my criticism of LH was that he needs to look out for himself more (His dad comes to mind again). Sometimes that might mean you go against the team's decisions during the race, as they are not always the best for the driver. I was trying to point out that JB manages to do this during races but it seems some folks don't agree, I'll leave there until it happens again.

Simple fact is that the driver is in the best position to make the call since he can feel what the tyres and track conditions are like first-hand rather than relying on a screen full of data, I suspect on certain occasions Lewis has waited for instruction from the team as opposed to making a call and asserting his authority, whereas Jenson has clearly done the opposite - and rightly so imo

[as65p]

Sorry for OT, but.

I'm curious whether Alonso in his McLaren days ignored any team orders? Just to better understand the way Macca is working with their drivers.

No.

[mstar]

IF this turns out to be a close race with Button vs Lewis i just feel Jenson can out-think Lewis in any strategic situation in a race. He has proven it in the past where he can access the race and make BIG calls and get them right. Lewis relies more on his pit crew to tell him what to do. Thats the big difference when the driver needs to make the decision based on what the car/tyres/conditions are doing Jenson can read and execute. I am not sure Lewis has that mental capacity to do that yet as he hasn't got the experience jenson has in race craft.

[robefc]

Okay, maybe MW meant the team was surprised he made the call to come in and not that he surprised an unready team, happy now?

Let's not get bogged down by pitstops, my criticism of LH was that he needs to look out for himself more (His dad comes to mind again). Sometimes that might mean you go against the team's decisions during the race, as they are not always the best for the driver. I was trying to point out that JB manages to do this during races but it seems some folks don't agree, I'll leave there until it happens again.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph, I just don't think it applies to the first stint when they one is behind the other that's all, both in terms of whether jenson has done it and whether lewis should do it.

[Lazy]

Sorry for OT, but.

I'm curious whether Alonso in his McLaren days ignored any team orders? Just to better understand the way Macca is working with their drivers.

Yes, Ron told him to "**** off and die"

[inca_roads]

Sorry for OT, but.

I'm curious whether Alonso in his McLaren days ignored any team orders? Just to better understand the way Macca is working with their drivers.

Not that I can recall. The bigger problem was that McLaren ignored his orders.

[Andy35]

27 pages after one race in the new car, you could only get this on autosport forum




Andy

[tifosiMac]

Not that I can recall. The bigger problem was that McLaren ignored his orders.

He was way bigger than the team afterall.

[gricey1981]

I wrote exactly this in 2010 and was shot down in flames.

2 years later you write the exact same thing and its treated as the definition of obvious...

The tide has turned. Yippie!

It has.... On current form and as you know I am a Hammy fan Jenson is better than thought and Lewis is a little worse that though. All imo.

Unless one gives the other a complete drubbing this season.

Dont think that will happen and I have a feelign it will be a straight shoot out between the 2 this year. Mclaren look great

[Hulkster]

I was wondering at he weekend exactly how the McLaren priority system works.

We all know that whichever of their drivers is leading on track is given first option of when to pit.

What I was wondering is how freedom much the other driver is given in reacting to that.

For example, if Hamilton is leading and decides to pit on lap 20, is Button told 'ok Jenson, Lewis is pitting on lap 20 so you can only pit from lap 21 onwards'? Or would it be 'Lewis is pitting on lap 20, so you can pit on any lap other than lap 20'?

The latter option would obviously leave open the possibility of an undercut and an annoyed leading driver.

It seemed in Australia at least, once Button had chosen his lap, it would have been better for Hamilton to come in the lap before rather than the lap after. That probably would've brought about a McLaren 1-2, probably still with Button winning the race, but possibly also brining them together too close for comfort.

Of course Hamlilton and / or his team might have had that option at the weekend and decided not to take it, that's what I am curious about.

Edited by Hulkster, 23 March 2012 - 19:07.

[fabr68]

Sorry for OT, but.

I'm curious whether Alonso in his McLaren days ignored any team orders? Just to better understand the way Macca is working with their drivers.

More than orders, I remember that Alonso was not happy with Mclaren sharing all his telemetry, strategy, setup, etc with Lewis' side of the garage. The team however made sure both sides of the garage will share all information to maximize results.

Is this happening now with Button and Hamilton? It does not seem that way based on Melbourne's results. It seems that Button's strategy and setup (more wing to preserve tires) was not taken into account by Lewis' side of the garage. You would think that the easiest way for Hamilton to beat Button would be to counter-attack whatever strategy he plans for this weekend.

[tkulla]

More than orders, I remember that Alonso was not happy with Mclaren sharing all his telemetry, strategy, setup, etc with Lewis' side of the garage. The team however made sure both sides of the garage will share all information to maximize results.

Is this happening now with Button and Hamilton? It does not seem that way based on Melbourne's results. It seems that Button's strategy and setup (more wing to preserve tires) was not taken into account by Lewis' side of the garage. You would think that the easiest way for Hamilton to beat Button would be to counter-attack whatever strategy he plans for this weekend.

There's no way they aren't sharing data. After being beaten soundly by Red Bull two years running they can't afford to handicap themselves like that.

It will be interesting to see if the two McLaren driver's are clear of the field in points later in the year whether such a situation could happen. It would likely benefit Jenson more than Lewis, but if it happens I think it would be by Hamilton's request rather than Button's.

As for this thread, it's funny how often Turkey 2010 comes up. One thing that is often overlooked is that Button was not happy with the team after the race either. Last week's Autosport had a nice little "case study" on page 37 about it, and it ended with Button demanding "Now tell me how that was not team orders." Button's distaste for being told to stand down was made very clear there it appears, and that was the moment when the team must have realized just how formidable a presence he was.

[PrettyBoy22]

Hoping and praying Lewis does the business this weekend to get the doubters off his back...although i like Jenson and rate him highly i don't like the way some people claim Jenson is far ahead of Lewis in terms of overall speed, simply not true!

[ayanate]

And in that scenario I would expect Lewis to pit first. I still think we will see the undercut attempted by one of the two over the next handful of races maybe even this weekend if they are on 3 stoppers and they don't believe the tyres will be marginal come the end of the race. I really don't believe an agreement exists as has already been said it punishes the second car too much.

For me it is not so just the driver behind attempting the undercut, but also staying competitive to the leader and keeping the gap to third. Mclaren played into RB's hands with a bad strategy for Lewis in Melbourne, all this to guarantee Button the win.

[Clatter]

For me it is not so just the driver behind attempting the undercut, but also staying competitive to the leader and keeping the gap to third. Mclaren played into RB's hands with a bad strategy for Lewis in Melbourne, all this to guarantee Button the win.

The strategy would have been fine, they were just damn unlucky with the timing of the SC.

[PARAZAR]

There's no way they aren't sharing data. After being beaten soundly by Red Bull two years running they can't afford to handicap themselves like that.

It will be interesting to see if the two McLaren driver's are clear of the field in points later in the year whether such a situation could happen. It would likely benefit Jenson more than Lewis, but if it happens I think it would be by Hamilton's request rather than Button's.

As for this thread, it's funny how often Turkey 2010 comes up. One thing that is often overlooked is that Button was not happy with the team after the race either. Last week's Autosport had a nice little "case study" on page 37 about it, and it ended with Button demanding "Now tell me how that was not team orders." Button's distaste for being told to stand down was made very clear there it appears, and that was the moment when the team must have realized just how formidable a presence he was.

That sounds like an interesting read. Never realized Button was annoyed, he certainly didn't show it if anything else I thought it was Lewis that looked a little annoyed and the whole thing looked awkward. Could you give us a bit more detail please (even though this is the 2012 thread )?

[fabr68]

There's no way they aren't sharing data. After being beaten soundly by Red Bull two years running they can't afford to handicap themselves like that.

It will be interesting to see if the two McLaren driver's are clear of the field in points later in the year whether such a situation could happen. It would likely benefit Jenson more than Lewis, but if it happens I think it would be by Hamilton's request rather than Button's.

As for this thread, it's funny how often Turkey 2010 comes up. One thing that is often overlooked is that Button was not happy with the team after the race either. Last week's Autosport had a nice little "case study" on page 37 about it, and it ended with Button demanding "Now tell me how that was not team orders." Button's distaste for being told to stand down was made very clear there it appears, and that was the moment when the team must have realized just how formidable a presence he was.

If that is the case, then all Lewis needs to do is mirror Jensons setups (downforce, gearing, etc). As long as he is a "little" quicker, he should be able to stay ahead.

[trogggy]

If that is the case, then all Lewis needs to do is mirror Jensons setups (downforce, gearing, etc). As long as he is a "little" quicker, he should be able to stay ahead.

You can't think much of Hamilton's ability to set up a car if that's your suggestion.

[fabr68]

You can't think much of Hamilton's ability to set up a car if that's your suggestion.

It is not that. Hamilton himself said that Button set up his car to have more downforce (more wing) and therefore he was able to preserve his tires better.

Had Hamilton followed Button's approach it is very likely he would have smoked Vettel and even get to challenge Button. Seems to me like the best overall strategy for Mclaren to maximize results and keep Vettel away from the points fountain.

[ImDDAA]

You can't think much of Hamilton's ability to set up a car if that's your suggestion.

I don't think it implies that Hamilton is bad at setting up a car, but that Button is simply better.

[PNSD]

As for this thread, it's funny how often Turkey 2010 comes up. One thing that is often overlooked is that Button was not happy with the team after the race either. Last week's Autosport had a nice little "case study" on page 37 about it, and it ended with Button demanding "Now tell me how that was not team orders." Button's distaste for being told to stand down was made very clear there it appears, and that was the moment when the team must have realized just how formidable a presence he was.

You should come round these part's more often. Your posts in the Mercedes threads are always interesting, and your posts in general are good to read. It's objectivity like this that this thread generally lacks.

[tommyhjortasen]

Jenson is better.

Simple.

[sofarapartguy]

Jenson is better.

Simple.

And he knows it I believe.

[tommyhjortasen]

As always. Jenson will be superior in the race.

But, I wish Lewis all luck.

[Rocket73]

It would appear we have heavy tyre wear at KL. Lewis said he was going to focus on consistency so i am curious about his strategy for Q And R2

[ForzaGTR]

As always. Jenson will be superior in the race.

But, I wish Lewis all luck.

So Jenson had been superior in every race since the beginning of 2010...grow up.

[PretentiousBread]

A potential, small shift in the balance of power between Button and Hamilton in 2012:

Hamilton:

"I think last year was very similar to be honest, only when you're off power (this year) you have a lot less downforce than you did last year, so there's a little bit more movement on the entry of corners - particularly the medium and low speed corners"

I couldn't help but notice him delivering these lines with a wry smile, and it coinciding with a day in which he put more daylight between himself and Jenson on the low fuel runs than has been the case of late. He knows what he's talking about, it's his stomping ground - managing rear end instability is one of his strengths which was somewhat negated by the EBD, and was part of the reason IMO why Button was closer in qualifying to Hamilton in 2011 than in 2010.

Whether or not this is of as much benefit to him in the race i'm not sure, since they're so far away from the 'ragged edge', I don't know if this skillset of his is much a requirement in the races nowadays. But it should help him in qualifying, which will still be important, especially if the field closes up on McLaren.

[OO7]

A potential, small shift in the balance of power between Button and Hamilton in 2012:

Hamilton:



I couldn't help but notice him delivering these lines with a wry smile, and it coinciding with a day in which he put more daylight between himself and Jenson on the low fuel runs than has been the case of late. He knows what he's talking about, it's his stomping ground - managing rear end instability is one of his strengths which was somewhat negated by the EBD, and was part of the reason IMO why Button was closer in qualifying to Hamilton in 2011 than in 2010.

Whether or not this is of as much benefit to him in the race i'm not sure, since they're so far away from the 'ragged edge', I don't know if this skillset of his is much a requirement in the races nowadays. But it should help him in qualifying, which will still be important, especially if the field closes up on McLaren.

I don't think it will make much difference at all. Jenson has looked very comfortable in the car and has said as much himself.

[tommyhjortasen]

The world will not change, much. Therefor the same precedings, Jenson the superior as always.

[klyster]

Yoda, is that you?

[BillBald]

A potential, small shift in the balance of power between Button and Hamilton in 2012:

Hamilton:

I couldn't help but notice him delivering these lines with a wry smile, and it coinciding with a day in which he put more daylight between himself and Jenson on the low fuel runs than has been the case of late. He knows what he's talking about, it's his stomping ground - managing rear end instability is one of his strengths which was somewhat negated by the EBD, and was part of the reason IMO why Button was closer in qualifying to Hamilton in 2011 than in 2010.

Whether or not this is of as much benefit to him in the race i'm not sure, since they're so far away from the 'ragged edge', I don't know if this skillset of his is much a requirement in the races nowadays. But it should help him in qualifying, which will still be important, especially if the field closes up on McLaren.

I think there was a lot of speculation towards the end of last year, that Jenson would be at a disadvantage without the EBD, but so far it doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

[undersquare]

Slightly OT being last year but in the reviews I did notice the similarity, and difference, between the China run to the first corner and Suzuka. In China when Lewis got an overlap on Sebi, Sebi veered away. In Suzuka when Jense got an overlap Sebi kept moving across knowing JB would back out of it.

It's a difference between our boys. Jense has been working on being more aggressive, Lewis at being less aggressive perhaps.

[Lights]

Lewis on pole once again. McLaren still have their, albeit minimal, advantage.

Clearly Jenson needs to retire or move to Mercedes. Poor guy.

[jjcale]

Same prediction as last week:

JB for the win (because of the tyres)... LH to be second (... no one saw SV coming last week... the team should have him covered this week)

[revlec]

Did not you notice a strange pattern with BUT Q3 laps?
Today(like in Australia) he was slow after the first lap, but tried for real to grab the pole with his second lap.
_
I don't know you, but i have a slight feeling BUTTON and his engineers are trying to do mind games(or sandbagging). Remember Abu Dhabi last year?? BUT looked slow, but in his second lap came from nowhere and nearly grabbed HAM's P2.
I think BUT today, was sure to be on Pole. Good thing Lewis didn't buy it this time.

Edited by revlec, 24 March 2012 - 09:16.

[Sevach]

Lewis has a thing that he can look nothing special through Q1, Q2 and then suddenly find something special.

Let's see how both guys do in the race, should be a tough battle.

[ForzaGTR]

Fingers crossed that Lewis has a better race set up this time. Will be close regardless though

[PayasYouRace]

So far same story as Melbourne. Will the race be the same? Can't wait. I have a feeling the start will be all important again. Whoever gets into T1 first should be favourite.

[Lights]

Did not you notice a strange pattern with BUT Q3 laps?
Today(like in Australia) he was slow after the first lap, but tried for real to grab the pole with his second lap.
_
I don't know you, but i have a slight feeling BUTTON and his engineers are trying to do mind games(or sandbagging). Remember Abu Dhabi last year?? BUT looked slow, but in his second lap came from nowhere and nearly grabbed HAM's P2.
I'm sure BUT was confident today to be on Pole. Good thing Lewis didn't buy it this time.

If anyone was sandbagging it was Lewis because he almost won a second between Q2 and Q3. Button, knowing he has 2 laps, simply first puts a banker lap and then really goes for it in the second lap, but obviously Lewis is about 0,15 seconds quicker.

[TeamMacca]

Lewis only needs one run, Jenson needs 2 and still can't beat Lewis.

But Jenson will beat Lewis in the race unless he gets jumped by the fast starting Michael behind him on the better side of the grid.

We will see.

[Sevach]

Did not you notice a strange pattern with BUT Q3 laps?
Today(like in Australia) he was slow after the first lap, but tried for real to grab the pole with his second lap.
_
I don't know you, but i have a slight feeling BUTTON and his engineers are trying to do mind games(or sandbagging). Remember Abu Dhabi last year?? BUT looked slow, but in his second lap came from nowhere and nearly grabbed HAM's P2.
I think BUT today, was sure to be on Pole. Good thing Lewis didn't buy it this time.

Way to overthink it

I know it sounds ludicrous, but maybe Jenson just puts on a safe lap and then a faster more agressive one.