Only a fool thinks it doesn't matter.
This whole "Qualifying doesn't matter" is a myth.
Only a complete idiot thinks you get points for it.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:18
Only a fool thinks it doesn't matter.
This whole "Qualifying doesn't matter" is a myth.
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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:21
Races won from pole position
2009 - 9 (52.9%) qualifying with race fuel.
2010 - 8 (42.1%)
2011 - 9 (47.4%)
2012 - 2 (50.0%) to date
No signs of a trend there. Indeed if you go deeper and look at all quali positions there is still no significant change in terms of correlation between starting position and finishing positons.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:26
Not really. Button was only trailed LH by three points with three to go that season. He was only a hand full of points away from likely being supported as McLarens contender for the wdc in final three races. He definitely wasn't dominated!
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:30
I dunno, he does have a lot of lock ups and minor offs.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:33
2008 14 overtakes per GP
2011 60
2012 70
Which means what? Think hard.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:33
This whole "Qualifying doesn't matter" is a myth.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:43
I watch and I also understand. Let me explain it you. The reason they sit in Q3 is because they know that their ultimate Qualifying position wont really change if they go out on track or stay in the garage.You haven't been watching have you? Cars in Q3 sitting.Alonso being asked on the radio whether he'd prefer P11 and fresh tires vs Q3 entry,cars making +5/10/15 spots is common now.
"Qualifying" includes all 24 cars not only the top3. So yeah whether Qualifying 5th,8th or 14th it has meant nothing and what tires you have available or how they work is everything.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:46
Races won from pole position
2009 - 9 (52.9%) qualifying with race fuel.
2010 - 8 (42.1%)
2011 - 9 (47.4%)
2012 - 2 (50.0%) to date
No signs of a trend there. Indeed if you go deeper and look at all quali positions there is still no significant change in terms of correlation between starting position and finishing positons.
2008 14 overtakes per GP
2011 60
2012 70
Which means what? Think hard.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:47
I watch and I also understand. Let me explain it you. The reason they sit in Q3 is because they know that their ultimate Qualifying position wont really change if they go out on track or stay in the garage.
McLaren and Red Bull seem to be on my side because I have yet to see them not participate in Q3.
Maybe you can explain to them your secret strategy.
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Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:47
Well it wasn't just that - an awful lot of incidents occurred:2nd half of 2009 was difficult because of balance problems mainly in quali therefore hurting his races.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:49
I'm not baffled in the slightest. It's been discussed in length since he came to F1, that Hamilton's main strength is not is qualifying, but his race pace. Button got put to the sword in 2010 with JB fans excuses ten fold. He struggled with tyre temps, he needs a perfect car, qualifying is a weakness, he doesn't like over steer, he wasn't comfortable in the car etc etc etc. Then from 2011 onwards Hamilton's race pace has disappeared. With retrospective analysis it is clear as to the reasons why and hardly rocket science, why Hamilton struggled post 2010. The evidence is clear. I for one have not harped on with any other excuse except for the tyres. 2010, qualifying pace replicated during the races exactly like 2007 to 2009. Cue 2011 all of a sudden it is gone? Even if one hasn't heard of the concept Ockhams razor, even a modicum of common-sense would come to the same conclusion.
But oh no. We are led to believe it is the magical improvement in Jensons' race pace, while IGNORING the now universally acknowledged fact, the tyres cannot be pushed, or race hard on, for any sustained period and racing IS a tyre management exercise. But alas the obfuscation, strawman arguments are limitless, when it comes to explaining JB's lack of qualifying pace, but major improvement in race pace. Where was JB's race pace in 2009, when his car was no longer a monster, but merely one of the best cars? He was nowhere. But alas there could be no excuses like he was uncomfortable in the car etc etc. The last 10 races of the season when he had a top 1, 2 and 3 car depending on the circuit. He was just slow. Maybe because in those days, you actually had to put your foot to the floor and drive flat out. A bit like qualifying.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:54
Which means? ..........Q is irrelevant most of the time,unlike the pre Pirelli/DRS era which is the point.
It means that there are currently a lot of 'cheap' overtakes with DRS and with drivers passing cars just after having pitted for fresh rubber.
I don't know the 2011/2012 numbers for passes for position where drivers are on the same strategy. Is it significantly different to 2010?
Posted 27 April 2012 - 13:55
There is an interesting dichotomy between the 'much easier to win from pole' mindset and the 'don't burn another set of tyres and we can come through the field' mindset shown by lotus in bahrain. Also last year with Webber in china. I think it's too much of a risk for macca, RB etc but it might be an option they're considering.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:06
Then why these "Fast" drivers are qualifying so low eh?It means that whatever the rules, tyres, gimmicks over a meaningful sample of races, the fastest (best) team driver combo will come out on top.
What a surprise, eh?
Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:06
Lewis's mistakes don't generally have anything to do with holding his pace too close to the edge though do they? Monza 09 apart.
Edited by PretentiousBread, 27 April 2012 - 14:07.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:22
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99168"The biggest difference this year is that the field has become so compact - and it has become difficult to define the first pit stop time," he said. "It is nearly impossible to not fall behind traffic now.
"Last year the top cars were going away and were able to stop in clear air, but now it is much more difficult.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:41
Which means? ..........Q is irrelevant most of the time,unlike the pre Pirelli/DRS era which is the point.
The top ten finishers combined including the lost (negative) positions have gained a combined 149 positions so far.
You won't find 4 wet races combined where this phenomenon has ever happened before.,guarantee it
Edited by Dunder, 27 April 2012 - 14:43.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:13
Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:21
I specifically said in my original post that I expected Button to be fairly close to Hamilton in the 2010 points table. To his credit, he was even closer than I expected. I was using the word "dominated" to refer to their comparable performances in races. The reason Button was close to Hamilton in points terms is because in a number of races he finished right behind Hamilton, not because he finished ahead of him. For example, during Hamilton's mid-season run of 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd (Turkey, Canada, Valencia, Britain) Button managed a run of 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. This is admirable consistency, and it shows that if Hamilton had failed in any of those races Button would have been there to pick up the pieces. Your point about Button trailing Hamilton by three points with three to go proves my point quite well. In the block of three races (Italy, Singapore, Japan) before the final three Hamilton had two DNFs and a gear issue, but he was still ahead in the points.
In normal conditions, Button just could not beat Hamilton. That is why I used the word "dominated." It is also why I think the tyres must be playing a part in the battle between the two McLarens. I completely accept that other factors may have brought Button closer to Hamilton in the races (whether it's Button being at his preferred height in the cockpit, more input into the design direction of the car or just general evolution as a driver), but I also believe that the Pirellis have played at least some part.
I also think it's bizarre to try to use 2009 as proof of Button's supposed mediocrity as some are doing. Winning six out of the first seven races is seriously impressive in any car. I think the pressure of having one hand on the WDC so early in the season would prevent any driver from racing as freely as normal. Button is undeniably a very good driver. I just think Hamilton is better.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:22
Stunning. This is the first time I can ever remember Ragged Edge thinking (s)he has been PROVEN right about ANYTHING and my word, what a performance!!!
The trouble is you are NOT right TRE, because your central premise is that the tyres have limited the ability of drivers to drive to the maximum, which is therefore specifically disadvantageous to HAMILTON because he is faster in a race. But how do you know that? That has NOT been proven or even consistently demonstrated. All you have is drivers like MS and NR saying that they have to look after their tyres too much in a race WHICH WE ALREADY KNEW. Your saying you KNEW that the racing was fake, contrived etc all along, but it seems to me it is you for whom the penny has dropped - as if the rest of us weren't having exactly the same conversations about grooved tyres a decade ago example. In this case you have NOTHING that says this disadvantages Hamilton MORE than Button, or Vettel or anyone else. It could even be more advantageous to Hamilton because lower limit racing increases his consistency...
And whilst on the subject, how do you square this "PROVEN" FACT of yours with the ACTUAL FACT that Hamilton was not as quick as Button in the race in say Australia. Are you saying Hamilton couldn't even keep up with a pace that was according to you only 80% of what he was capable of???
Yes the tyres are limiting performance. Yes this is not 100% pure racing - but is it ever. But no, this doesn't mean you can assume that it is therefore not a challenge the drivers aren't earning their bread or it proves anything to duel your propaganda.
The rules are what they are. The effect of tyres has evolved over the last say 5 years and Button and Hamilton have looked fairly equal under ALL CONDITIONS over that time. That is the fact which puts the pin in your balloon.
Carry on with your self congratulations by all means.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:27
Posted 27 April 2012 - 15:29
Quite true that Hamilton is the better driver of the two on any given day. However Button is the driver that the team can better count on for results where Hamilton is a bit of a train wreck when it comes to making impulsive decisions and his inability to perform under pressure.
If you say Hamilton 'dominated' JB in 2010 then perhaps it then can be said that Jenson 'terrorized' Lewis that year. Button was always there, unshakeable, waiting to take advantage of Hamilton's every mistake while keeping it tight on the points charts. Hamilton just didn't and still doesn't have an answer for Button.
Edited by TheBunk, 27 April 2012 - 15:39.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 16:16
Really,Alonso&Massa? FA dominated Massa with BStones and Pirellis Quali and Race,so the logical conclusion is Massa is a mediocre driver who's been uderperforming.And lets not forget Massa is a bonafide #2.I could twist and turn that in any number of ways but I won't. The field is closely bunched in terms of ultimate (qualifying) speed and there can be advantages to saving tyres, no-one disputes that.
Regardless, I really am not seeing what point you are trying to make. You believe that "qualifying is irrelevant most of the time" and that "the racing is fake" but you still have not a go at explaining why Alonso consistently dominates Massa or why Vettel gets the better of Webber in all conditions.
Likewise, 2011 did not throw up any new race winners and the championship top 7 were the same as in 2010 (with only small differences in the order) - oh and by the way 6 of those are in this year's top 7 already despite the apparent randomness.
Put simply, your beliefs are not consistent with the actual results.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 16:27
Don't think Lotus was on the podium due to their strategy but rather because they were fast. As is the case most of the time, everything works if you can lap fast, nothing if you're slow. Best example is with what Brawn / MS got away at Ferrari when the car was dominant. That same combo hasn't been able to do anything recently with a slow(ish) car.
In that sense, I always felt strategy is overrated.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 16:31
Quite true that Hamilton is the better driver of the two on any given day. However Button is the driver that the team can better count on for results where Hamilton is a bit of a train wreck when it comes to making impulsive decisions and his inability to perform under pressure.
If you say Hamilton 'dominated' JB in 2010 then perhaps it then can be said that Jenson 'terrorized' Lewis that year. Button was always there, unshakeable, waiting to take advantage of Hamilton's every mistake while keeping it tight on the points charts. Hamilton just didn't and still doesn't have an answer for Button.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 16:32
Quite true that Hamilton is the better driver of the two on any given day. However Button is the driver that the team can better count on for results where Hamilton is a bit of a train wreck when it comes to making impulsive decisions and his inability to perform under pressure.
If you say Hamilton 'dominated' JB in 2010 then perhaps it then can be said that Jenson 'terrorized' Lewis that year. Button was always there, unshakeable, waiting to take advantage of Hamilton's every mistake while keeping it tight on the points charts. Hamilton just didn't and still doesn't have an answer for Button.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:06
Exactly, Button blew Hamilton away in the first few laps in Melbourne, which had nothing to do with tyre deg, and do the Ham fans seriously believe he was trying to keep to some Lap time delta while his team mate was making him eat his dust?And whilst on the subject, how do you square this "PROVEN" FACT of yours with the ACTUAL FACT that Hamilton was not as quick as Button in the race in say Australia. Are you saying Hamilton couldn't even keep up with a pace that was according to you only 80% of what he was capable of???
Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:39
Erm Lewis didn't have an answer to button in 2010 and was terrorised by him despite finishing ahead of him in the WDC? Am I misunderstanding your point?
Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:53
Go watch Germany 2011 once more but this time "listen" carefully! Why? Because it's the only race which the words DEGRADATION and CONSERVE your tires are never mentioned.
Then look at the results.It can't be a coincidence that even in 2011 Lewis was the Lewis of old in such races,can it? As for who has an answer to who,well flipping a coin might as well be more informative to understanding Pirelli Lotto and which driver is best.
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Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:56
You're just really not understanding this. You see, when Button has trouble with his tyres, it's because of his own shortcomings. When Hamilton has trouble with his tyres, Pirelli must make different ones.What's strange in this topic is the respective sides that are being taken regarding the tyres. So far this season it is Button who has had more troubles with the tyres. Malaysia, China qualifying and worse pace and degradation in Bahrain. If the tyre perfromance remains as unpredictable all season then that may overall be an advantage for Hamilton.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:57
Exactly, Button blew Hamilton away in the first few laps in Melbourne, which had nothing to do with tyre deg, and do the Ham fans seriously believe he was trying to keep to some Lap time delta while his team mate was making him eat his dust?
Posted 27 April 2012 - 17:58
I don't quite understand what this discussion is about, but if there was "no degradation" then why was it a 3 stop and not a 1 stop strategy? The answer is that stints were short enough for degradation not to be a major issue. Take a look at Turkey 2011, on a 4 stop there were no problems either with degradation, and then look at Jenson whose tyres died at the end of his last stint on a three stop.Go watch Germany 2011 once more but this time "listen" carefully! Why? Because it's the only race which the words DEGRADATION and CONSERVE your tires are never mentioned.
Then look at the results.It can't be a coincidence that even in 2011 Lewis was the Lewis of old in such races,can it? As for who has an answer to who,well flipping a coin might as well be more informative to understanding Pirelli Lotto and which driver is best.
Edited by WitnessX, 27 April 2012 - 18:31.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:00
You're just really not understanding this. You see, when Button has trouble with his tyres, it's because of his own shortcomings. When Hamilton has trouble with his tyres, Pirelli must make different ones.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:35
Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:43
Give it a rest. If Hamilton was genuinely faster than Button in Melbourne, being behind or not TDG would have overtaken Button on track. After all as so many have pointed out "Overtaking has become so easy it's a farce". Face it, when tyre deg wasn't an issue in Melbourne Button blew Ham out of the water.It does seem that whoever gets into the 1st corner is able to pull a massive gap.
Look at all the starts this year.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 18:56
As someone pointed out Germany was a 3 stop race. The best example you could have given for a race in 2011 with very low degradation was India where the front runners only completed 2 stops. Button passed Alonso and Webber on the first lap and then had very good pace up until the end of the race, whereas Ham couldn't even keep up with Massa, but i suppose Ham was trying to keep to a lap delta time and only driving 60% within himself .Go watch Germany 2011 once more but this time "listen" carefully! Why? Because it's the only race which the words DEGRADATION and CONSERVE your tires are never mentioned.
Then look at the results.It can't be a coincidence that even in 2011 Lewis was the Lewis of old in such races,can it? As for who has an answer to who,well flipping a coin might as well be more informative to understanding Pirelli Lotto and which driver is best.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:18
Give it a rest. If Hamilton was genuinely faster than Button in Melbourne, being behind or not TDG would have overtaken Button on track. After all as so many have pointed out "Overtaking has become so easy it's a farce". Face it, when tyre deg wasn't an issue in Melbourne Button blew Ham out of the water.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:19
Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:41
Exactly, Button blew Hamilton away in the first few laps in Melbourne, which had nothing to do with tyre deg.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 19:46
Jenson has the upper hand.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:13
I think you will find a good number of people who dont share that view...
Eg Trulli had terrible race pace versus his quali pace... but he was not usually limited by "fuel, traffic, strategy, tyres" ... he just sucked at pushing for lap after lap... not all of them are equally good at it.
You have to remember that this is the key skill that marked out top drivers in the refuelling era. and this is the era that informs the views of most of us as to what skillset an F1 driver should possess.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:36
But this still doesn't explain how JB just blew Ham away in the first 7 laps, and the rest of the race. If Ham was genuinely faster, surely he would have overtaken him or at the least been on the back of his gearbox.Maybe Jenson was able to beat Lewis into the first turn at Melborne, because of a problem that Hamilton had with his clutch.
http://www.racer.com...article/233025/
Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:45
It is? I thought it was that processional, zero overtaking, borefest era we couldn't wait to get rid of.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 20:52
No question that the unusually low temperatures made preservation less of a factor (and the prime tyre pretty much useless) but it was still a three stop race. Nonetheless, Lewis appears to have a slightly different opinion and do bear in mind that you only hear a fraction of the radio comms.
Q: Lewis, where did your extra margins come from? How much was down to the car and how much was down to you?
Hamilton: Well, I think none of us can win without the car. I think bit by bit just learning more about the how the car is behaving and with the driving style I was able to learn to look after the tyres a little bit more.
http://www.grandprix.../r849sunpc.html
Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:43
Edited by cokeb, 27 April 2012 - 21:45.
Posted 27 April 2012 - 21:54
Posted 27 April 2012 - 23:02
Posted 28 April 2012 - 00:39
Jenson's saying he thinks he'll be able do look after the tyres better than others, but since then have we seen that. Not reallyFound this snippet in an issue of Autosport from early 2011:
JB - "there will be degradation on the soft tyre and you have to look after it, but there always has to be a balance. I think with Pirelli we have a tyre that maybe suits me more than the previous tyre we had."
So please, enough of the denial about these tyres suiting JB. At the same time as he was saying this, Hamilton was saying:
"Last year we had to make tyres last with a heavier fuel load, and now it's even slower. I did a run the other day and it was painfully slow. It's just not exciting to be honest."
So again, enough of the 'Hamilton never complained about the tyres, it's all in your head' misinformation as well.
Posted 28 April 2012 - 02:47
Erm Lewis didn't have an answer to button in 2010 and was terrorised by him despite finishing ahead of him in the WDC? Am I misunderstanding your point?
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Posted 28 April 2012 - 06:04
At what price? A contest of who can 'tip toe' around the best? Martin Brundle's words, not mine.