17347 replies to this topic

[karlth]

Paddy Lowe on Mugello testing...

Engineer speak.

[as65p]

Engineer speak.

If they got no new car parts to test, how about a day or two of pitstop practice? With their race drivers, preferably!

[ivand911]

I am surprised to see that McLaren don't need this test? I will ask again: Are they crazy? What is happening with this guys? And they really mean it , after they suppose to use reserve driver.

Edited by ivand911, 26 April 2012 - 12:12.

[CrucialXtreme]

Engineer speak.

It's not really "Engineer Speak". McLaren simply doesn't like the in season test because they've invested heavily into their simulator & aren't as reliant on track data as some of the other teams. When a McLaren employee of Lowe's status mentions cost cutting as a reason why he doesn't want to test, it's a rubbish excuse and there's other reasons behind their opinion. Lowe: "It's a bit of a disruption and it's not necessary for us to go racing to have an in-season test. But it does gives teams an opportunity to take another step forward in development at a greater rate than before".


The bottom line is an in-season test somewhat negates the investment in and development advantage of having such a good simulation program as McLaren has. It will allow other teams to catch quicker than they would in previous years and he doesn't like it.

[Dunder]

I am surprised to see that McLaren don't need this test? I will ask again: Are they crazy? What is happening with this guys? And they really mean it , after they suppose to use reserve driver.

You have to read between the lines of such statements.

What he is saying here is "other teams will benefit more from track testing than we will".

[slmk]

That does not make me very bullish on McLaren's prospects for the rest of the season.

[Owen]

That does not make me very bullish on McLaren's prospects for the rest of the season.

I'm not worried.

[maverick69]

You have to read between the lines of such statements.

What he is saying here is "other teams will benefit more from track testing than we will".

Well that makes an even more compelling case to get their race drivers out there to attempt to get their heads around the tyres.

[Dunder]

Well that makes an even more compelling case to get their race drivers out there to attempt to get their heads around the tyres.

They will find a setup that works the tyres correctly at Mugello in the prevailing conditions within 10 or 15 laps of the first day.
That setup would, however, not be suitable if the conditions are significantly different the following day.

You cannot magically widen a tyre's operating range, it is a product of it's chemical composition.

As such "getting their heads around the tyres" really comes down to trying to find efficient ways of subjecting the tyres to higher/lower loads in case there is a change in expected track conditions whilst parc ferme restrictions are applicable. You don't need the race drivers for that.

I am sure McLaren have some ideas on how to make the car easier on the rear tyres and to improve traction and hopefully we will see those tested.

[GlenP]

I don't believe it follows at all that this test would be better done by the race drivers. They will obviously have a schedule worked out, doubtless involving lots of back to back repetitive stuff, driving to a target time etc. Why would Hamilton do that better? He may even be worse at that kind of thing. They are looking for ways to set the car up and get it to work with the tyres, not different ways to drive it?

[WitnessX]

Paddy Lowe on Mugello testing...

Is there a Source for that? Sometimes the press take things out of context.

In case anybody's missed it:

http://www.formula1....12/4/13217.html

Q: On a completely different subject, we have a Mugello test coming up, we haven’t had an in-season test for several years now, to what extent has simulation etc overtaken that? Or is it still invaluable?
PL: It’s still very, very valuable. Simulation has grown a great deal in the last few years and we do depend a lot more on in. In fact it pushes the testing in a slightly different direction, in the same way you saw this morning we were running on Lewis’ car a big sampling array for aerodynamic pressures. We’re using these tools in order to validate our simulations. So we increasingly use testing in order to calibrate the simulations we’re doing in the office. So, it’s very, very important still. I think what’s happened is that we’ve moved the testing bias towards Fridays rather than the tests that used to occur between each race. We get the job done, we just do it probably more efficiently really by using the race practice. Mugello will allow a few other things. It’s a redistribution of where we put the effort. We used to have that test in the pre-season period. That’s been moved to April. It allows us to do a few different things mid-season that we wouldn’t have been able to do. It’s a lot more work actually, that we haven’t been used to but it helps us make a step mid-season.

Edited by WitnessX, 26 April 2012 - 13:42.

[senna da silva]

They will find a setup that works the tyres correctly at Mugello in the prevailing conditions within 10 or 15 laps of the first day.
That setup would, however, not be suitable if the conditions are significantly different the following day.

The more information they have of the tyres in different environmental conditions and track surfaces the better they'll be able to understand them and formulate a solution for every condition.

Edited by senna da silva, 26 April 2012 - 13:41.

[senna da silva]

If they got no new car parts to test, how about a day or two of pitstop practice? With their race drivers, preferably!

[CrucialXtreme]

Is there a Source for that? Sometimes the press take things out of context.

Yes this weeks edition of AutoSport magazine. It definitely wasn't taken out of context. I've posted an additional quote from Lowe where he cites "cost savings" as one of the reasons he doesn't want to test in-season.

Edit: Let me make my stance clear, I'm not knocking McLaren, they don't want to give up an advantage, or have it compromised. I don't blame them. I would have the same stance were I him.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 26 April 2012 - 14:48.

[femi]

I'm not worried.

I am, I think we may be seeing the begining of their struggles this year as other teams get their cars working well.

[CrucialXtreme]

I am, I think we may be seeing the begining of their struggles this year as other teams get their cars working well.

I wouldn't be. McLaren are very strong in the area of simulation; Wind Tunnel, CFD & Car simulator and until this year obviously have developed their car throughout the season with these 3 tools. Having an in-season test helps tremendously the teams that aren't as strong in these areas. Hence their apprehension. I wouldn't want to give up an advantage either. There's not anything else to read into the quotes. McLaren will have updates too. It's all about maintaining a competitive advantage. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Owen]

I am, I think we may be seeing the begining of their struggles this year as other teams get their cars working well.

Sorry that just sounds like paranoia to me. They've got 3 weeks to address the issues and they are not being complacent. As Lewis said 'if anyone can fix it, it's us'. I have faith.

[robefc]

I don't believe it follows at all that this test would be better done by the race drivers. They will obviously have a schedule worked out, doubtless involving lots of back to back repetitive stuff, driving to a target time etc. Why would Hamilton do that better? He may even be worse at that kind of thing. They are looking for ways to set the car up and get it to work with the tyres, not different ways to drive it?

I'm not sure if they wouldn't also be looking at different ways of driving with the tyres too.

I could see why having the racing drivers would be beneficial if so, I doubt it's a negative if not anyway, as long as they do what they're told!

[Owen]

Jon Noble ‏ @NobleF1 - twitter
McLaren's Mugello testing plans are unchanged from last week, despite speculation that Lewis Hamilton could test. Paffett/Turvey only

[peroa]

Jon Noble ‏ @NobleF1 - twitter
McLaren's Mugello testing plans are unchanged from last week, despite speculation that Lewis Hamilton could test. Paffett/Turvey only

I hate to quote myself...

I know, but he won't be allowed to test, not in a million years.
I can see Jenson doing a day or so.

[MortenF1]

I think it's strange why they couldn't give him one day atleast.

[maverick69]

Hamilton has confirmed that he may now cancel plans for a week off in the wake McLaren's unexpected loss of pace in Sunday's grand prix in Bahrain.

"It might change," Hamilton told The Daily Telegraph. "I need to get back in the car. We need to figure out why the tyres are going off.

"If there are other things to test or ways to figure out I will be the one to do it, not let some-one else do it."


That's more like it Lewis. I reckon last year he would have swanned off to LA for the week for example.

I hope he gets all 3 days in the car.

If Halfwhitmarsh blocks this one, I'm gonna personally go down to Woking and take a large dump in his coffee........

Right. Time to get eatin'.................

[xAtarigeekx]

I think it's strange why they couldn't give him one day atleast.

I would guess that they already have a programme worked out and they are going to stick to it. They need to figure out why the car is so hard on it's tyres. It's the same for both Hamilton and Button, so clearly it's not the fault of their driving styles, it's a problem with the car. Having the race drivers do the testing won't help them figure that out, the figuring out will be done by looking at the data.

I don't think it's that big a deal really. Maybe Paffett is a better test driver than Hamilton and Button, maybe they want Turvey to get time in the car. I doubt having Hamilton or Button do the testing would help solve the issue.

[maverick69]

Joking aside - That's a bit of a public slap in the face for Lewis.

As has been mentioned - what's wrong with giving him one day in the car?

After McLaren saying that they can accomodate changes to the schedule to bring Hamilton in - I wonder what the reasoning behind this is?

Edited by maverick69, 26 April 2012 - 16:50.

[peroa]

I would guess that they already have a programme worked out and they are going to stick to it. They need to figure out why the car is so hard on it's tyres. It's the same for both Hamilton and Button, so clearly it's not the fault of their driving styles, it's a problem with the car. Having the race drivers do the testing won't help them figure that out, the figuring out will be done by looking at the data.

I don't think it's that big a deal really. Maybe Paffett is a better test driver than Hamilton and Button, maybe they want Turvey to get time in the car. I doubt having Hamilton or Button do the testing would help solve the issue.

Of course, that's why the other top teams rely on test drivers doing the test.

[peroa]

Joking aside - That's a bit of a public slap in the face for Lewis.

As has been mentioned - what's wrong with giving him one day in the car?

After McLaren saying that they can accomodate changes to the schedule to bring Hamilton in - I wonder what the reasoning behind this is?

Things are getting clearer...
http://www1.skysport...sit-out-Mugello

[maverick69]

Things are getting clearer...
http://www1.skysport...sit-out-Mugello

That's all well and good for Jenson - but Hamilton wants to get in the car and is clearly happy to "put the miles on the parts" and "do some extreme things".

[MP422]

That's all well and good for Jenson - but Hamilton wants to get in the car and is clearly happy to "put the miles on the parts" and "do some extreme things".

If he wants to do it they should let him. He's obviously in need of some questions answered considering their tire degradation and pace in bahrain. I think its good that Lewis is trying to get in on this test shows he is committed to the team and definitely looking to improve in every area he possibly can. I hope Mclaren listen to him.

[maverick69]

They will find a setup that works the tyres correctly at Mugello in the prevailing conditions within 10 or 15 laps of the first day.
That setup would, however, not be suitable if the conditions are significantly different the following day.

You cannot magically widen a tyre's operating range, it is a product of it's chemical composition.

As such "getting their heads around the tyres" really comes down to trying to find efficient ways of subjecting the tyres to higher/lower loads in case there is a change in expected track conditions whilst parc ferme restrictions are applicable. You don't need the race drivers for that.

I am sure McLaren have some ideas on how to make the car easier on the rear tyres and to improve traction and hopefully we will see those tested.

From the latest Autosport Plus article http://plus.autospor...od-news-for-f1/ :

"If anyone tells you they can alter the tyre temperature with set-up they are bullshitting," said the straight-talking Permane. "Anyone who says that they know how to change their degradation is bullshitting.

"Everyone would love to do that and people think they can do, to some extent. Mercedes have a quick car and a lot of clever people, but look at their race pace in the first two races. It was awful. If it was easy, they would have done it.

"We spent all of last year trying to stop our rear degradation and it really is ever so difficult. You can play around with suspension geometries, and it's relatively straightforward to design a different geometry, but how do you test it? It's so difficult in-season. You get one set of tyres in P1 and two for P2, so how do you measure the difference between two sessions with changing conditions?"

.... Ergo, in the short term at least, a lot of it is down to the drivers getting their head around things.

So even on an unfamiliar track, with little upgrades, one must surely be baffled at McLaren not letting Hamilton have a run.

Farkin odd..............

[IceSkyrim]

Jon Noble ‏ @NobleF1 - twitter
McLaren's Mugello testing plans are unchanged from last week, despite speculation that Lewis Hamilton could test. Paffett/Turvey only

Oh... the crisis... McLaren doesn't want to pay Lewis overtime

Edited by IceSkyrim, 26 April 2012 - 18:20.

[peroa]

So, if there are no updates, there is no test plan "to disturb" for LH, now is there...
Now, let's see some creativity in this thread.

Edited by peroa, 26 April 2012 - 18:26.

[MP422]

From the latest Autosport Plus article http://plus.autospor...od-news-for-f1/ :

"If anyone tells you they can alter the tyre temperature with set-up they are bullshitting," said the straight-talking Permane. "Anyone who says that they know how to change their degradation is bullshitting.

"Everyone would love to do that and people think they can do, to some extent. Mercedes have a quick car and a lot of clever people, but look at their race pace in the first two races. It was awful. If it was easy, they would have done it.

"We spent all of last year trying to stop our rear degradation and it really is ever so difficult. You can play around with suspension geometries, and it's relatively straightforward to design a different geometry, but how do you test it? It's so difficult in-season. You get one set of tyres in P1 and two for P2, so how do you measure the difference between two sessions with changing conditions?"

.... Ergo, in the short term at least, a lot of it is down to the drivers getting their head around things.

So even on an unfamiliar track, with little upgrades, one must surely be baffled at McLaren not letting Hamilton have a run.

Farkin odd..............

I like Permane's straight talk. Nice post thanks.

[Anomnader]

I'm quickly losing all respect for this team, they seemed trying their hardest to throw everything away.

[Brandz07]

FFS so that's at least 1 day wasted whilst they get used to the car.

[tommyhjortasen]

No updates?

What are they testing then, tyre pressure?

[bauss]

Joking aside - That's a bit of a public slap in the face for Lewis.

As has been mentioned - what's wrong with giving him one day in the car?

After McLaren saying that they can accomodate changes to the schedule to bring Hamilton in - I wonder what the reasoning behind this is?

If JB ain't testing, you sure damn well know there is no way MW will let LH test ...this is the guy that took LH's RE when JB arrived remember? so both of them could start afresh with new dudes.

It's consistent

[Octavian]

If JB ain't testing, you sure damn well know there is no way MW will let LH test ...this is the guy that took LH's RE when JB arrived remember? so both of them could start afresh with new dudes.

It's consistent

Well if JB isn't testing why on earth would be people think Hamilton has some special right to test?

[femi]

I'm quickly losing all respect for this team, they seemed trying their hardest to throw everything away.

You are not the only one... I don't think they are going to win anything, they are governed by a management with a petty and narrow mindset. They forget that outside england, JB is nothing.

[femi]

Well if JB isn't testing why on earth would be people think Hamilton has some special right to test?

The thinking of the neo-Mclaren fan.

[engel]

The thinking of the neo-Mclaren fan.

to be fair he has a point though, if LH was doing a McLaren sponsor event in Hungary and Button went testing in Italy at the last minute it would take an exorcist to calm the LH fans down ;) The cries of sabotage, preferential treatment etc ...

[as65p]

to be fair he has a point though, if LH was doing a McLaren sponsor event in Hungary and Button went testing in Italy at the last minute it would take an exorcist to calm the LH fans down ;) The cries of sabotage, preferential treatment etc ...

We get that regardless, so why bother.

[ZooL]

Jon Noble ‏ @NobleF1 - twitter
McLaren's Mugello testing plans are unchanged from last week, despite speculation that Lewis Hamilton could test. Paffett/Turvey only

McLaren - Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory ™

[BinaryDad]

Back on topic...

To me, it doesn't make sense to deny one driver the chance to do testing, just because the other chooses not to. It stinks far too much of enforcing some messed up policy of equality, even when it's not really needed.

Jenson wants to take it easy? Fine let him. Lewis wants to spend the time learning? Why stop him?

Edited by BinaryDad, 26 April 2012 - 21:08.

[femi]

Back on topic...

To me, it doesn't make sense to deny one driver the chance to do testing, just because the other chooses not to. It stinks far too much of enforcing some messed up policy of equality, even when it's not really needed.

Jenson wants to take it easy? Fine let him. Lewis wants to spend the time learning? Why stop him?

Couldn't have put it better. When MW took over the management of the team, there was a statement in one of the published articles at that time that he doesn't like changing his mind even when wrong. This might be an example of that; an indication of a serious ego problem.

Edited by femi, 26 April 2012 - 21:15.

[CrucialXtreme]

MP4-27 Technical Updates + Piola video



http://www.auto-moto...12-4805692.html

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 26 April 2012 - 21:21.

[engel]

Back on topic...

To me, it doesn't make sense to deny one driver the chance to do testing, just because the other chooses not to. It stinks far too much of enforcing some messed up policy of equality, even when it's not really needed.

Jenson wants to take it easy? Fine let him. Lewis wants to spend the time learning? Why stop him?

Button is doing a McLaren roadshow type promo event for Vodafone in Budapest next week, don't think it qualifies as him "taking it easy"

http://www.caboodle......tt_news]=9710

and like I said, if the situation was reversed and it was Lewis doing that roadshow and Button decided to go testing at the last minute many here would be singing a different tune.

[ZooL]

Button is doing a McLaren roadshow type promo event for Vodafone in Budapest next week, don't think it qualifies as him "taking it easy"

http://www.caboodle......tt_news]=9710

and like I said, if the situation was reversed and it was Lewis doing that roadshow and Button decided to go testing at the last minute many here would be singing a different tune.

Well the situation is reversed isn't it if Hamilton is on holiday and wants to go on the car and the request is blocked by team principal?

McLaren are silly, they are hurting themselves now, anything Hamilton learns about the tyres can be shared with Button.

Paffet and Rookie Turvey have no experiance of the tyres to test them properly. It's all about the tyres, and its no good Turvey learning how to make them last if Hamilton is the one who has to race them in a GP.

Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen - if they all test then the biggest loser will be Hamilton and then Button (but him not as much as he doesn't have to adjust his driving style like Lewis has had to adapt his significantly).

It's looking more and more like Whitmarsh is trying to get Hamilton out the team because he's too quick on a saturday for Button to cope with and Whitmarsh wants to go down a #1 driver route, choosing Button over Hamilton. Button wants this clear #1 #2 policy too, he's been quoted it.

Edited by ZooL, 26 April 2012 - 21:31.

[femi]

Button is doing a McLaren roadshow type promo event for Vodafone in Budapest next week, don't think it qualifies as him "taking it easy"

http://www.caboodle......tt_news]=9710

and like I said, if the situation was reversed and it was Lewis doing that roadshow and Button decided to go testing at the last minute many here would be singing a different tune.

Totally wrong. If JB was having issues more than LH with those rubbers, I will support JB taking advantage of the testing to get on top of the issue. LH wants to work on those tyres and the team are denying him that. That is very stupid.

Mclaren's management are failing to take a holistic view of the team. They have become very petty, they are failing to maximize the benefits of their assets. This mindset is going to prevent them from winning anything.

Edited by femi, 26 April 2012 - 21:33.

[BinaryDad]

Button is doing a McLaren roadshow type promo event for Vodafone in Budapest next week, don't think it qualifies as him "taking it easy"

http://www.caboodle......tt_news]=9710

and like I said, if the situation was reversed and it was Lewis doing that roadshow and Button decided to go testing at the last minute many here would be singing a different tune.

Button could attend testing on the 2nd or 3rd if he wanted to. He'll be at this roadshow thingy for one day...and probably not even all day. More than enough time to travel business/first class to the test So yes, he most likely WILL be resting during most of the test.

If the roles were revered; I couldn't care less and I could just as easily imagine that there wouldn't be a large outcry bar the usual suspects accusing Lewis of not being dedicated enough etc (see...assuming things works both ways). If Lewis WANTED to take it easy on the test days, that's his choice in much the same way that Button may be choosing to relax.

Who knows...relaxing may prove to be more beneficial. I just don't see the logic in denying a driver the chance to learn first hand, a bit more about what's happening with the car that he will be driving.

[as65p]

Who knows...relaxing may prove to be more beneficial. I just don't see the logic in denying a driver the chance to learn first hand, a bit more about what's happening with the car that he will be driving.

Let's pretend for a second all in here are sane enough not to accuse McLaren of hurting themselves on purpose (I know it's a stretch). Then clearly the team judges whatever they do with their test drivers more beneficial than Hamilton trying to learn about the car.