4015 replies to this topic

[Ferrari2183]

Actually looking the times when the Red Bulls bothered to push for some laps during the race, the difference is like that, if not more.

Excuse me. What race were you watching? I posted this in the Ferrari thread yesterday and after his pit stops Vettel was pushing and Massa could quite comfortably match his pace.

http://en.mclarenf-1...sa#.UHvxzW_MCSo

Have a look at Massa's pace after the first pit stop prior to running into a slow Hamilton and then after he got by on lap 21. Furthermore Alonso's fastest lap set in the final stint was a match for Vettel's although set 3 laps earlier while Massa's was 2 tenths faster set earlier in the stint. Vettel was also pushing after his second stop in order to extend his lead over Webber which had shrunk to 5 seconds by that time but Massa was held back by Ferrari so he maintained the gap to Alonso at 1.5 seconds.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Red Bull were significantly faster than Ferrari in Korea. Maybe they were that much faster than Alonso but not Massa.

[Ferrari2183]

It's nice being positive, but in the end it won't give you laptime.

As I see it, Alonso now needs a DNF from Vettel while winning that particular race to still have a chance. Mind you, not even that win and three seconds would be enough in case Vettel wins the other three.

Looking at the points table it's not too bad, but the recent performance gap between the cars paints a far gloomier picture. We must not forget that once again, like sometimes in 2011, RB was limited by tyre wear yet still managed to win comfortably. Without wear issues, the gap would have been much bigger.

Of course, Ferrari could be really lucky with tyre wear being an issue on the remining tracks, or rain, but that's the point, they have to rely on luck. Or pull half a second out of the hat, what chances of that?

But everybody is tyre limited, not just Red Bull. And what performance gap are you talking about? Japan and Singapore were pretty bad but Ferrari have removed some of the more recent updates and reverted to an older spec which has seen them qualify within 3 tenths of pole in the dry for the first time this year bar Monza.

There is plenty to be positive about... It is not like Ferrari were miles off Red Bull's pace in Korea.

[kosmos]

There is plenty to be positive about...

There is, but some people want to be realistic, it's that wrong?. Even if you think Massa was quick enough to get Webber, Vettel was unreachable, and we are fighting with Vettel for the WDC.

[prty]

Excuse me. What race were you watching? I posted this in the Ferrari thread yesterday and after his pit stops Vettel was pushing and Massa could quite comfortably match his pace.

http://en.mclarenf-1...sa#.UHvxzW_MCSo

Have a look at Massa's pace after the first pit stop prior to running into a slow Hamilton and then after he got by on lap 21. Furthermore Alonso's fastest lap set in the final stint was a match for Vettel's although set 3 laps earlier while Massa's was 2 tenths faster set earlier in the stint. Vettel was also pushing after his second stop in order to extend his lead over Webber which had shrunk to 5 seconds by that time but Massa was held back by Ferrari so he maintained the gap to Alonso at 1.5 seconds.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Red Bull were significantly faster than Ferrari in Korea. Maybe they were that much faster than Alonso but not Massa.

Yeah, Vettel was pushing all the way, as doing his fastest lap in the last one evidences...

[Ferrari2183]

There is, but some people want to be realistic, it's that wrong?. Even if you think Massa was quick enough to get Webber, Vettel was unreachable, and we are fighting with Vettel for the WDC.

Realistic is saying that the championship will be tough from here on in (which is true), not the championship is over. That smacks of defeatist and I'm glad the Ferrari team doesn't think that way...

Also, I follow live timing closely every race and I have a look at the head to heads of the drivers closely after each race and apart from Singapore and Japan I'm yet to see a Red Bull significantly faster than a Ferrari to warrant this "championship is over" talk. Ferrari have reverted to an older specification floor and some bodywork in Korea and it immediately catapulted the team up the order. They took a wrong turn development wise due to a faulty wind tunnel... So what? **** happens. They're just one upgrade away from being right there again.

[as65p]

But everybody is tyre limited, not just Red Bull. And what performance gap are you talking about? Japan and Singapore were pretty bad but Ferrari have removed some of the more recent updates and reverted to an older spec which has seen them qualify within 3 tenths of pole in the dry for the first time this year bar Monza.

There is plenty to be positive about... It is not like Ferrari were miles off Red Bull's pace in Korea.

Yeah, make it sound like good thing that the Canada-spec car was faster than anything Ferrari have developed since.

I often sympathize with you being angry at Alonso fans unable to see fault in him, but you appear to behave just the same when it comes to the team (development department in this case, I think everyone agrees that the race team has been brillinat all year).

Whatever. Nothing we discuss in here will change anything, and I'll certainly prefer being proven wrong by seasons end, regarding the cars potential for the last 4 races. Let's wait and see.

[Ferrari2183]

Yeah, make it sound like good thing that the Canada-spec car was faster than anything Ferrari have developed since.

I often sympathize with you being angry at Alonso fans unable to see fault in him, but you appear to behave just the same when it comes to the team (development department in this case, I think everyone agrees that the race team has been brillinat all year).

Whatever. Nothing we discuss in here will change anything, and I'll certainly prefer being proven wrong by seasons end, regarding the cars potential for the last 4 races. Let's wait and see.

When I first caught wind of the development troubles I was first to point out that Ferrari were once again having correlation issues. It was laughed off by some in the Ferrari thread but I stood my ground and have since been proven right. Ferrari get a fair bit of stick from me when it's warranted but the situation in the championship whether points wise or pace wise is hardly that bad to cause a panic in needle park.

[KnucklesAgain]

^^ Very true

[bmardini]

The ferrari car is it seems 3 races worth of development behind the RB.

If the INdia package works, and RB's package works, then that "development gap" will remain.

This is why people who understand realize this is a foregone championship in terms of pure pace.

If the India package works BETTER than expected, and the RB India package DOESN'T work, then maybe there's a chance.

[Tauhid]

Alonso has to fight it all the way and I believe only he can do it. I don't think he will blink this time. If McLaren wins a race or two then its game on. But if Red Bull continues their winning streak, then its game over, simple as that.

[RockyRaccoon68]

I personally don't think he stands a chance unless Vettel hits misfortune but I'll never stop hoping or supporting! I've said it all year long, I don't care where he finishes this year - he has been amazing regardless and all fans can be very proud to have supported him. We've been through worse, remember 2009? Remember the first half of 2008?

[kosmos]

Some interesting stuff.

From Lewis Hamilton:

How much, for example, did he learn from Fernando in 2007?

"A lot. His mannerisms, the way he worked within the team, his driving style..."

Driving style? (I question whether Lewis has changed his style at all - and, if so, whether he's introduced a 'Fernando' element to his repertoire.)

"I didn't by to copy him, but I learnt from the way he approached minimum speeds and braking points, for example. When to attack, when not to attack, pushing the car to the limit. All Fernando things. I'd look at the data and see that he as doing something differently and then I'd have to go out and try to find for myself what he was doing - or why he was doing it. That was how I tried to improve my technique and skills. Since then, I think it has been about me making lots of mistakes and then learning from them. I haven't learned from anyone else the way I learned from Fernando. Having said that, I'm still making lots of mistakes. There are many ways in which I can improve and hopefully I'm always working at those.''

From Grosjean:

Is being Fernando Alonso's team-mate as intimidating as it seems from the outside?

No. When you are in the car it is good to have a world champion as a team-mate. It was good for me to he alongside Fernando — 1 learned a lot. As everyone knows, he's a fantastic driver and it was good to be not too far away from him in terms of performance. Ile helped me to understand a lot tot Pi. We were friends before we became team-mates and our relationship is still good today. I enjoy speaking to him during the drivers' parade and things like that.

[Ashitank]

Hamilton backs Alonso for title
"I feel like Fernando has deserved it throughout the year," Hamilton said. "His team haven't made one mistake. He hasn't always been the fastest but he has been up there. He has driven like the champion he is all year and I feel as though he is a three-time world champion. Red Bull have been more up and down but they have still done a great job. They have won the last three races."

[HoldenRT]

I think Alonso deserves it the most.. I agree completely with Hamilton.. or at least.. I DID..

..until the last race or two where it seems Alonso is being outpaced by Felipe. I think this is more about Felipe finding a setting in the car that he likes.. and Felipe improving rahter than Alonso struggling.. but still..

How embarressing.

[Ferrari2183]

I think Alonso deserves it the most.. I agree completely with Hamilton.. or at least.. I DID..

..until the last race or two where it seems Alonso is being outpaced by Felipe. I think this is more about Felipe finding a setting in the car that he likes.. and Felipe improving rahter than Alonso struggling.. but still..

How embarressing.

Wow. How many times has Webber been faster and how many times has he beat Vettel?

What a silly thing to say... Alonso is not immune from being beaten by a teammate.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 18 October 2012 - 16:34.

[Skinnyguy]

..until the last race or two where it seems Alonso is being outpaced by Felipe. I think this is more about Felipe finding a setting in the car that he likes.. and Felipe improving rahter than Alonso struggling.. but still..

How embarressing.

Alonso has been outpaced once all season, is that bad? With that standard, no one deserves to be WDC

Alonso has been overall the best this year up until now, with 3 guys very close. I don´t know if it will end up like this, but for me, with 4 to go, Alonso has been doing the best job overall out there. Plenty of amazing drives, only one race ending mistake, and 1 off weekend, if you can call Korea that, which I don´t do.

[fabr68]

I think Alonso deserves it the most.. I agree completely with Hamilton.. or at least.. I DID..

..until the last race or two where it seems Alonso is being outpaced by Felipe. I think this is more about Felipe finding a setting in the car that he likes.. and Felipe improving rahter than Alonso struggling.. but still..

How embarressing.

Yes.

When Massa beats Alonso it is embarrasing

When Massa beats Kaikkonen it is sabbotage

When Alonso beats Massa, it is because Massa is a very poor driver


If you do the math, it fits the agenda perfectly

Edited by fabr68, 18 October 2012 - 17:21.

[ConsiderAndGo]

I think Alonso deserves it the most.. I agree completely with Hamilton.. or at least.. I DID..

..until the last race or two where it seems Alonso is being outpaced by Felipe. I think this is more about Felipe finding a setting in the car that he likes.. and Felipe improving rahter than Alonso struggling.. but still..

How embarressing.

What a load of bull.

[Hanzo]

How much, for example, did he learn from Fernando in 2007?

"A lot. His mannerisms, the way he worked within the team, his driving style..."


Driving style? (I question whether Lewis has changed his style at all - and, if so, whether he's introduced a 'Fernando' element to his repertoire.)

"I didn't by to copy him, but I learnt from the way he approached minimum speeds and braking points, for example. When to attack, when not to attack, pushing the car to the limit. All Fernando things. I'd look at the data and see that he as doing something differently and then I'd have to go out and try to find for myself what he was doing - or why he was doing it. That was how I tried to improve my technique and skills. Since then, I think it has been about me making lots of mistakes and then learning from them. I haven't learned from anyone else the way I learned from Fernando. Having said that, I'm still making lots of mistakes. There are many ways in which I can improve and hopefully I'm always working at those.''

Very honest comments from Hamilton, it is not very common to read such words from one champion to another, especially about the influence on his driving

[topical]

Very honest comments from Hamilton, it is not very common to read such words from one champion to another, especially about the influence on his driving

Funny, at the end of 2007 I seem to remember Hamilton saying, "What I learned from Alonso this year is how not to act as a driver . . ."
Amazing how these 2 have turned it round since then.

[SophieB]

Very honest comments from Hamilton, it is not very common to read such words from one champion to another, especially about the influence on his driving

I agree with you, it's a lovely and very sincere sounding tribute. He's been way more forthcoming about Fernando ever since he was one of the very few drivers who really stuck up for him at the end of last season when Hamilton was catching tons of press and paddock flak. He's spoken a few times before about how much he misses him as the team mate who would inspire him to better his own driving but I was very interested in him admitting he also studied and learned from the way Fernando worked with the team as a person.

[KnucklesAgain]

Funny, at the end of 2007 I seem to remember Hamilton saying, "What I learned from Alonso this year is how not to act as a driver . . ."
Amazing how these 2 have turned it round since then.

Yeah, it's good to see. The mutual respect has been growing ever since, but I wonder if this newest spurt has anything to do with Lewis now being able to relate better to Fernando's feelings towards McLaren.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 October 2012 - 08:49.

[Jejking]

Yeah, it's good to see. The mutual respect has been growing ever since, but I wonder if this newest spurt has anything to do with Lewis now being able to relate better to Fernando's feelings towards McLaren.

Don't forget, in his debut season he was just 22 years old. That's life experience speaking right here. It has to be a part of it. Lewis is maturing nicely and I hope his Merc period will help him with that.

[kosmos]

Man, time goes by, 6 years ago Fernando won his 2nd title in Brazil. Great memories.

[topical]

Man, time goes by, 6 years ago Fernando won his 2nd title in Brazil. Great memories.

Who would have thought back then he'd go 6 years without title number 3. I really hope he does it this year. India is the big race to see how those chances look.

[aditya-now]

Who would have thought back then he'd go 6 years without title number 3. I really hope he does it this year. India is the big race to see how those chances look.

Yes, India and the updates shall tell us more. I hope the very best - Fernando is long overdue with his next WDC.

[Hanzo]

I am just glad he can make it to the GP.
I always fear the worst when he does so many hours on his bike for training, especially under the rain like this week.

[korzeniow]

Frank Williams on Ferrari's title hopes this season:

[topical]

Frank Williams on Ferrari's title hopes this season:

Telling comments from Frank, and high praise for Alonso, as I always thought FW wasn't a big fan of his. Clearly people up and down the pitlane recognise that Alonso has been the best driver this year and I get the sense he would be a popular champion, and that most people will be a bit disappointed if Vettel takes it.

[Mauseri]

Telling comments from Frank, and high praise for Alonso, as I always thought FW wasn't a big fan of his. Clearly people up and down the pitlane recognise that Alonso has been the best driver this year and I get the sense he would be a popular champion, and that most people will be a bit disappointed if Vettel takes it.

If Vettel takes it he fully deserves it. In the beginning he didn't have a strong car, but he has not really done much wrong. A couple DNFs outside of his control, but Alonso also had one.

[Kelateboy]

If Vettel takes it he fully deserves it. In the beginning he didn't have a strong car, but he has not really done much wrong. A couple DNFs outside of his control, but Alonso also had one.

Alonso has had a nearly flawless season, but for a single mistake in Suzuka. Vettel has had 3 DNFs that was not his mistakes - 2 due to alternators and 1 from a collision with a backmarker.

Either of them would be a worthy champion!

[HPT]

It pains me to say this as an Alonso fan but if Vettel takes it, he fully deserves it too. Alonso made one small mistake in Suzuka (it's more an error in judgment) and also another in Australia qualifying. Vettel made one mistake in Malaysia but was off-colour in qualifying quite a few times getting soundly beaten by Webber at the beginning of the year. But it's hard to fault him because we could make a convincing case that Webber is better than Massa right now.

Anyways, still hoping for Alonso's 3rd title!

[prty]

On the other hand, Vettel was nowhere and beaten by Webber until Red Bull found a trick to get the EBD effect / stable rear back.

[HPT]

On the other hand, Vettel was nowhere and beaten by Webber until Red Bull found a trick to get the EBD effect / stable rear back.

This is true as well. IIRC he only had one podium for the better half of the season. It wasn't until after Valencia that he really started piling up those podiums and wins.

[krea]

On the other hand, Vettel was nowhere and beaten by Webber until Red Bull found a trick to get the EBD effect / stable rear back.

that's wrong though

Webber was just ahead of him for some time because of his DNFs. But he had the better results normally in races without technical problems.

Edited by krea, 23 October 2012 - 12:26.

[Hanzo]

It pains me to say this as an Alonso fan but if Vettel takes it, he fully deserves it too. Alonso made one small mistake in Suzuka (it's more an error in judgment) and also another in Australia qualifying. Vettel made one mistake in Malaysia but was off-colour in qualifying quite a few times getting soundly beaten by Webber at the beginning of the year. But it's hard to fault him because we could make a convincing case that Webber is better than Massa right now.

Anyways, still hoping for Alonso's 3rd title!

You should consider Vettel moves on Button and Alonso as mistakes since he got penalties and in case Alonso was the one being sanctionated the rest of the F1 fans would consider those as Alonso's mistakes













Let's hope the fire melts the ice!!

[prty]

that's wrong though

Webber was just ahead of him for some time because of his DNFs. But he had the better results normally in races without technical problems.

Just the first three races, where the car was at its "worst":

- Outqualified in Australia, Webber finished 2 seconds behind.
- Outqualified in Malaysia, tangled with Karthikeyan, Webber beat him in the race.
- Outqualified in China, and outside Q3, Webber beat him in the race.

As the car gradually improved, the situation gradually reversed.

Anyway, this is not Vettel topic.

Edited by prty, 23 October 2012 - 15:23.

[jeze]

Anyone trying to suggest that Vettel's done just as good a job as Alonso THIS SEASON is nuts.. honest. Last year I thought they drove similarly. Ultimate level is the same, but the Red Bull car is the best on the grid looking at the season over 20 races (because they are allowed to run flexi-wings as usual )

2008 same

2009 same

2010 Alonso

2011 same (perhaps Vettel but car was still a Ferrari F2004-style machine so difficult to say)

2012 Alonso

Edited by jeze, 23 October 2012 - 15:33.

[aditya-now]

Anyone trying to suggest that Vettel's done just as good a job as Alonso THIS SEASON is nuts.. honest. Last year I thought they drove similarly. Ultimate level is the same, but the Red Bull car is the best on the grid looking at the season over 20 races (because they are allowed to run flexi-wings as usual )

2008 same

2009 same

2010 Alonso

2011 same (perhaps Vettel but car was still a Ferrari F2004-style machine so difficult to say)

2012 Alonso

Definitely, considering car/equipment in 2010 and 2012, Alonso was making the most of it. In a RBR, Alonso would have walked it in both years.

[LiJu914]

Definitely, considering car/equipment in 2010 and 2012, Alonso was making the most of it. In a RBR, Alonso would have walked it in both years.

Depends on whether his RB6 would´ve had Webber´s reliability or Vettel´s reliability in 2010...

[Juggles]

Definitely, considering car/equipment in 2010 and 2012, Alonso was making the most of it. In a RBR, Alonso would have walked it in both years.

It's so easy to say this but taking 2012 as an example, where would Alonso have picked up big results where Vettel didn't? Is there any evidence that Alonso wouldn't have struggled a few times in qualifying as Vettel did? I think all three of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have been very good this year, and I believe that the championship standings can be explained largely by differences in car and team performance as the drivers have been such consistent barometers.

[aditya-now]

It's so easy to say this but taking 2012 as an example, where would Alonso have picked up big results where Vettel didn't? Is there any evidence that Alonso wouldn't have struggled a few times in qualifying as Vettel did? I think all three of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have been very good this year, and I believe that the championship standings can be explained largely by differences in car and team performance as the drivers have been such consistent barometers.

Agreed

But then again, that's just my point, Fernando would have walked 2010 and 2012 in a RBR. Against a Vettel or a Hamilton in a Ferrari.

[Kelateboy]

Agreed

But then again, that's just my point, Fernando would have walked 2010 and 2012 in a RBR. Against a Vettel or a Hamilton in a Ferrari.

Not sure about 2012 since Alonso still has a fighting chance of ending the season as the WDC.

But in 2010, Alonso could have won it in a Ferrari - he was a tad unlucky in the final race. Both drivers had their shares of driving errors, but Vettel had more reliability issues that year.

[CrucialXtreme]

If Vettel takes it he fully deserves it. In the beginning he didn't have a strong car, but he has not really done much wrong. A couple DNFs outside of his control, but Alonso also had one.

I agree with all you said sans Sebs collision with Narain in Malaysia. That was simply a bad decision & totally Vettel's fault. That said both have had a very good year. However when you consider both cars and where they were in comparison to others at the beginning of the season, middle of the season & now it's clear to me at least the RB has been the better car all year. Fer has done/finished slightly better throughout the year & has had better reliability than the RB8. At the same time he has had slightly better luck.

I think both are deserving of the WDC but I also think its clear one driver has done more with less... Avanti Fer

[prty]

From another forum, I'm reading that Brundle said in the Korean post race:

"I think Alonso never really got over losing the 2010 championship and is gonna lose this one, isn't he?"

Sometimes he can't hide his true colors ;)

[HPT]

From another forum, I'm reading that Brundle said in the Korean post race:

"I think Alonso never really got over losing the 2010 championship and is gonna lose this one, isn't he?"

Sometimes he can't hide his true colors ;)

Who can't hide his true colours? Brundle? Does he dislike Alonso or something? I never knew...

[Kingshark]

Definitely, considering car/equipment in 2010 and 2012, Alonso was making the most of it. In a RBR, Alonso would have walked it in both years.

Had the RB6 been as reliable as the Ferrari that year Vettel would've cake walked 2010 as effortlessly as 2011.

This is coming from an Alonso fan.

[HPT]

Had the RB6 been as reliable as the Ferrari that year Vettel would've cake walked 2010 as effortlessly as 2011.

This is coming from an Alonso fan.

Reliability is part of the car design though. The car has efficient aero largely due to the way it is packaged. And it that creates reliability problems then it's their fault.

[prty]

Who can't hide his true colours? Brundle? Does he dislike Alonso or something? I never knew...

Yeah, once he called him "little bugger" or something like that on air.

[kosmos]

Brundle, Kravitz and Jordan hate or deeply dislike Alonso.