3086 replies to this topic

[sharo]

The graph is misleading no matter it's taken from F1Technical.
And IIRC it was first posted here in some other thread.

[baddog]

Show a graph of average race pace of the cars and we might get a clue. Even then it is hard to get clean data.

[packapoo]

Nick Fry is, was and always will be a business exec and marketing guy. He might have technically been a team principal for a short time but he is not a racing guy. If the finances of the team are good then why would he be got rid of?

Well on the basis of your response why hold him?
Merc must have a plethora of business execs and marketers, same as they have 'experts' on F1 car design and construction, with bugger all to show.

Ferrari, the organisation, on the other hand created a dog, acknowledged that and set out to compensate with heaps to show and mainly one car at that against two here.
Mercs response has one I've only ever seen applied in third-world countries - throw more bodies at it!

[baddog]

Well on the basis of your response why hold him?
Merc must have a plethora of business execs and marketers, same as they have 'experts' on F1 car design and construction, with bugger all to show.

Que? so everyone who is an administrator should be fired unless you know a reason to keep them?

Fry was a HORRIBLE team principal, but now he is doing his right job and there is no reason to think that that side of their business is being badly run at all

[steveninthematrix]

when Merc say they havent given up on this season, I believe that is 'double speak' for they have... they hired a lot of new resources at the start of the year, who I believe are pouring Merc resources into 2013, and this is why the car has stalled................

remember, in the world of politics and F1, when they make an official announcement, the opposite is generally true...

"saddam hussein definitely has weapons of mass destruction"
etc etc

[Pits]

when Merc say they havent given up on this season, I believe that is 'double speak' for they have... they hired a lot of new resources at the start of the year, who I believe are pouring Merc resources into 2013, and this is why the car has stalled................

remember, in the world of politics and F1, when they make an official announcement, the opposite is generally true...

"saddam hussein definitely has weapons of mass destruction"
etc etc

Well, if I'm not mistaken the rules don't change much from 2012---->2013, so it will be worth to develope the current car also.
It will probably be best to drop the DDRS development as it's banned for 2013 and is creating a lot of set-up problems this year.
I'm expecting a highly updated Merc in Spa and a very motivated Schumacher.

Keep faith guys!

[rog]

Yeah, Merc has no tire deg problem. That's why they can't be competitive with a two stop and have to do a third one.

What race do you refer? Hockenheim was just a stupid move by Mercedes and didn't improve their competitiveness, it was the opposite they lost 1-2 places. Rosberg stopped 2x in Budapest. In Silverstone both driver stopped 2x times. As I said their overall pace isn't competitive especially the downforce level.

[exmayol]

I'm expecting a highly updated Merc in Spa and a very motivated Schumacher.

Ditto!

[jjpm]

Keep faith guys!

Thanks a lot!

however I'm already keeping fat... That's enough!

[Reinmuster]

Having said that, there is a clear trend: Mercedes's are performing much better in the warmer conditions than they were at the start of the season. And this whole Mercedes's munch their tyres thing is being overplayed - the lack of rear-downforce is what is hurting them and the tyres. Once they begin gaining rear-downforce, they will be able to spread their stints out a whole lot more. McLaren have shown that: in Silverstone Hamilton finished behind Schumacher and used up his tyres at a much quicker rate. Come Hockenheim, McLaren brought various upgrades which brought them more downforce and hence better race pace - which enabled them to fight at the front.

That and DDRS - as suggested by Gary Anderson.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19064856

[Urawa]

http://translate.goo...em-5316057.html

seems like the Merc engine is part of the tyre issues and one reason why McLaren, Mercedes and FI seem to struggle a bit more than Renault\Ferrari powered cars.
Mercedes working hard atm to adjust the torque curve as good as possible with the rule change that was decided a few weeks ago

Edited by Urawa, 09 August 2012 - 13:35.

[Massa_f1]

http://translate.goo...em-5316057.html

seems like the Merc engine is part of the tyre issues and one reason why McLaren, Mercedes and FI seem to struggle a bit more than Renault\Ferrari powered cars.
Mercedes working hard atm to adjust the torque curve as good as possible with the rule change that was decided a few weeks ago

McLaren and FI, have been fine on the tyres for most races in my opinion.

[packapoo]

McLaren and FI, have been fine on the tyres for most races in my opinion.

Wouldn't go quite as far as that.

[mlsnoopy]

McLaren and FI, have been fine on the tyres for most races in my opinion.

The problem is that every other team has been significantly better with the tyres.

[Igorr]

http://www.yallaf1.c...mula-1-by-2014/

not looking good for merc and F1

[ZooL]

Ross Brawn has lost his touch, he has had plenty of time to resolve the tyre eating issues since last year and before yet every car still has the same characteristics. In season upgrades for the past years have been non-existant in delivering lap time. Far too many operational errors also. Worse than McLaren in that regard, and thats saying something.

Also is the foolishness of management to continue with Rosberg and Schumacher when Hamilton is there for the taking.

Mercedes have been a complete failure as a team in F1, how willy they were to leave McLaren where they were riding a crest of a wave in marketing terms.

[Sakae]

Also is the foolishness of management to continue with Rosberg and Schumacher when Hamilton is there for the taking.

How's that?

Mercedes have been a complete failure as a team in F1, how willy they were to leave McLaren where they were riding a crest of a wave in marketing terms.

Are you certain it was Mercedes who initiated separation and not McLaren? Would be nice if you could confirm that your information is accurate.

[JimboJones]

That and DDRS - as suggested by Gary Anderson.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19064856

This is the most ******** F1 article I have EVER read. If you're even remotely paying attention to Gary Anderson, then all hope is lost...
And they are quicker in warmer conditions.

[ali_M]

This is the most ******** F1 article I have EVER read. If you're even remotely paying attention to Gary Anderson, then all hope is lost...
And they are quicker in warmer conditions.

Ok then.

I'd love if you'd share with us your wisdom on the issue then, rather than simply claim the article to be ********.

Over to you....

[Schumacher7]

This is the most ******** F1 article I have EVER read. If you're even remotely paying attention to Gary Anderson, then all hope is lost...
And they are quicker in warmer conditions.

Jimbo Jones hath spoken.

[packapoo]

Are you certain it was Mercedes who initiated separation and not McLaren? Would be nice if you could confirm that your information is accurate.
[/quote]

By not questioning Zool's post 'Mercedes have been a complete failure as a team in F1' I take it you concur?

[Sakae]

Are you certain it was Mercedes who initiated separation and not McLaren? Would be nice if you could confirm that your information is accurate.


By not questioning Zool's post 'Mercedes have been a complete failure as a team in F1' I take it you concur?

If that's what you get out of my post, than I must appologise for not writting more clearly. I do question accuracy of Zool's statement, because whilst I am not privy to the agreement or pre-agreement discussions between McLaren and Mercedes Benz, if my memory serves me, in media the case was portrayed as it was actually McLaren who decided to go their own way, not Mercedes. Zool's mud sling shot is very likely off the target. On your second point, the answer is no, Mercedes IMO has not been total failure, they just have not completed all the work that is necessary to stand on podium. I hope they will be permitted to continue, and stand tall as they always do. There were some odd moments, but no one ever promised to us absolutes, and we can live with it.

[ali_M]

F1: Mercedes Eyes Partial Series Withdrawal For 2014 - Report

http://tinyurl.com/br9hmjx

Interesting developments.

[Timstr11]

F1: Mercedes Eyes Partial Series Withdrawal For 2014 - Report

http://tinyurl.com/br9hmjx

Interesting developments.

Rubbish article.

[jjpm]

F1: Mercedes Eyes Partial Series Withdrawal For 2014 - Report

http://tinyurl.com/br9hmjx

Interesting developments.

Not quite rubbish, but far from being 'un fait accompli'...

I believe that the mole originating this article do have access to Stuggart's corridors and bathroom.

Edited by jjpm, 15 August 2012 - 14:06.

[David1976]

F1: Mercedes Eyes Partial Series Withdrawal For 2014 - Report

http://tinyurl.com/br9hmjx

Interesting developments.

Frankly this would not surprise me. Mercedes have, lets face it, not been a huge improvement over what Honda achieved in F1. Sporadic success. In every other category of motorsport they have been involved in at a works level they have been regular winners. That, among other reasons, is a huge reason.

[Sakae]

Perhaps Mercedes should stay to win, and proove all the naysayers wrong. I hope they will get around the Gribkowsky argument and stay, regardless of any other considerations that were on the table, yet I will understand if the will say NO to Ecclestone and his handlers. Company as great as this cannot give up unreasonable demands, signing up contracts under terms which, as I heard, weren't too great to beggin with. We need to understand that as well.

Edited by Sakae, 15 August 2012 - 15:45.

[Reinmuster]

So the team will become privateer, again. Will Ross Brawn gonna still lead the team?

Last time I checked, he won WDC/WCC as privateer. Can he do it again?

[mkoscevic]

So the team will become privateer, again. Will Ross Brawn gonna still lead the team?

Last time I checked, he won WDC/WCC as privateer. Can he do it again?

Perhaps the right question is does he want to do it?

[Timstr11]

I have not yet seen anyone provide arguments that would give credence to this article. The things written in there simply do not make sense.

[Sakae]

In the world of F1 things can, and do happen. Common sense is not always essential or even in forefront of certain events. Perception however is.

Edited by Sakae, 15 August 2012 - 18:18.

[Timstr11]

In the world of F1 things can, and do happen. Common sense is not always essential or even in forefront of certain events. Perception however is.

Read beyond the headline. I'm talking about the specifics of the article. Of course Mercedes can withdraw.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the very specific scenario presented in the article. Those do not make any sense.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 August 2012 - 19:02.

[jjpm]

I have not yet seen anyone provide arguments that would give credence to this article. The things written in there simply do not make sense.

this article is an adaptation from Auto-Hebdo a french magazine (paper and web), however the sales aren't too bright, this is summer, not much is going on in the racing community so to stirrup sales why not make up a scenario with Mercedes AND Schumacher to raise buyer's attention by claiming the departure of Mercedes :
"Accueil > Magazine > Article
F1 - 2014 : Mercedes se désengage "
http://www.autohebdo...a...e=195&cur=2

Most of the arguments cited by the article are not false although nothing new either. We know that a small? number (but vocal) group of shareholders is pushing toward that direction.
We also know that Dr. Dieter Zetsche is pro-F1, we know the results of Mercedes-Daimler were recently announced better than expected and we know the F1 team has shown some progress over the first 2 years and a half, the second half season is not over and of course we know that between them and Bernie the new Concords agreements are not yet signed, so it goes...

[Slowinfastout]

Read beyond the headline. I'm talking about the specifics of the article. Of course Mercedes can withdraw.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the very specific scenario presented in the article. Those do not make any sense.

I agree.

I do not see the sense in a partial pull-out where the race team becomes AMG.

To remain exclusively as an engine manufacturer, that makes sense.. they make great engines, there's no question about that.. but to cripple the team and leave your AMG brand on it? that would be stupid.

If the guys in suits @ Stuttgart have lost faith in the team, and if Bernie does not feel they are in it 100%, or vice-versa.. they won't get a good deal like Ferrari, Red Bull, etc.. and then I think Mercedes will pull out from the race team.

The engine supply is different, at an operational level I don't see any reason for Mercedes to quit doing that, except It's easy to see it might be held hostage in the negotiations. In other words, from the FIA/FOM point of view, a complete withdrawal of Mercedes would be a big problem, so maybe they should get the sweetener like Ferrari, Red Bull and co..

[Timstr11]

this article is an adaptation from Auto-Hebdo a french magazine (paper and web), however the sales aren't too bright, this is summer, not much is going on in the racing community so to stirrup sales why not make up a scenario with Mercedes AND Schumacher to raise buyer's attention by claiming the departure of Mercedes :
"Accueil > Magazine > Article
F1 - 2014 : Mercedes se désengage "
http://www.autohebdo...a...e=195&cur=2

Most of the arguments cited by the article are not false although nothing new either. We know that a small? number (but vocal) group of shareholders is pushing toward that direction.
We also know that Dr. Dieter Zetsche is pro-F1, we know the results of Mercedes-Daimler were recently announced better than expected and we know the F1 team has shown some progress over the first 2 years and a half, the second half season is not over and of course we know that between them and Bernie the new Concords agreements are not yet signed, so it goes...

I don''t dispute that there is an argument for withdrawing.
We've been hearing that for the past 6 months as they're not happy with what FOM has tabled for a new Concorde agreement. No seat on the board (while RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari apparently have a seat). I'm sure that's a big sticking point.

My gripe with this article is the total fabrication of how that would take place. The writer does not even seem to know that Mercedes-AMG have already aligned with the F1 team (it's named Mercedes-AMG). Mercedes-AMG is not Mercedes's B-brand, but their high performance division selling their most technologically advanced and most expensive cars. Now if Mercedes was to withdraw, they would do it completely and dissociate themselves from the team , taking the Mercedes-AMG brand with them.
Same like it would not make sense for e.g. Toyota to withdraw by re-naming their team to Lexus. Would not make any sense whatsoever. It has everything to do with how you aim to position your brand.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 August 2012 - 19:43.

[Sakae]

Read beyond the headline. I'm talking about the specifics of the article. Of course Mercedes can withdraw.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the very specific scenario presented in the article. Those do not make any sense.

I scanned the article earlier on, and it touches upon several different and unrelated subjects. Which one cought your attention? I did not take it seriously at all, because it is lacking credibility, which is my basic problem. There is no source quoted, and rest is just as much speculation as you can find around here on any given day. Having said that, my rather flippant remark is also mean half seriously, namely, do not excluded any scenario regardless how sensless it appears before you, because anyone who follows that stuff could tell you we had countless decisions in past couple of decades, which not always made sense to us, and nothing has changed yet; we will be surprised if they leave, we will be surprised if they stay, we will be surprised if they come up with unexpected solution. For now I think that untill a Stuttgart suit shows up in the front of a microphone and camera, we are racing!


...Sorry, you beat me to it by 1 min in above post.

Edited by Sakae, 15 August 2012 - 19:43.

[Matt Somers]

During the summer break I had been piecing together an article in regard to Mercedes, I think most will find it a fair reflection of the past / current situation at Mercedes but I'd love to hear your feedback as genuine Mercedes fans (Until Mercedes came along I too was a BAR/HONDA/BRAWN fan btw)

The Trouble at Mercedes?

[Reinmuster]

Good article, mate.

[Sakae]

During the summer break I had been piecing together an article in regard to Mercedes, I think most will find it a fair reflection of the past / current situation at Mercedes but I'd love to hear your feedback as genuine Mercedes fans (Until Mercedes came along I too was a BAR/HONDA/BRAWN fan btw)

The Trouble at Mercedes?

Linked article is a complex opininon which requires some basic understanding from a reader not only of technical concepts, but also operational issues and at last but not least autonomy afforded to the team at Stuttgart, including company's interim and long term aims.

Being a well known and respected supplier of engines to F1 might be good enough for a lot of fans and pundits, but is it enough to satisfy internal pride of Mercedes Benz? If I have to take a shot at it, than the answer is resounding No, and true objectives most likely are:

1. Multiple WDC / WCC (the past glory re-erected)
2. McLaren defeated on the road and on the track.
3. Ferrari defeated on the road and on the track.
4. Name recognition world wide for AMG and all other divisions.

It could be as simple as that, and conclusively, if they can work around and through company's constitutional issues vis-a-vis Gribowski v. Ecclestone without interupption, they cannot leave now. Job is not done yet.

Edited by Sakae, 16 August 2012 - 14:33.

[Spa95]

http://blog.autoplus...curie-mercedes/

Anyone understand french? (Google translate makes no sense of the above)

[jjpm]

http://blog.autoplus...curie-mercedes/

Anyone understand french? (Google translate makes no sense of the above)

A user of his blog (Aloy06), known for his reliable informations from Stuggart, send us the following commentary:

Hello everyone,
Bad news from the Stuggart side, a radical change from Mercedes-Benz AMG, which will reverse to motorist only. Final word after the forecoming Board of Directors meeting taking place week 34.

ps while I do agree on the fiability of that person, I recall that he said that Michael would not be joining Mercedes in 2009! so...

Edited by jjpm, 16 August 2012 - 15:09.

[Slowinfastout]

Brawn GP again then? Gonna be interesting to see what happens to the ownership of the team. I don't think they are on the verge of massive success like the last time.

I wonder if Schumacher will retire, pretty sure he was waiting for this decision.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 16 August 2012 - 15:05.

[Sakae]

A user of his blog (Aloy06), known for his reliable informations from Stuggart, send us the following commentary:

Hello everyone,
Bad news from the Stuggart side, a radical change from Mercedes-Benz AMG, which reverse to motorist only. Final word after the forecoming Board of Directors meeting taking place week 34.

Board of Directors are meeting next week, and the "reliable source" is predicting that announcement after the meeting is going to be that Mercedes will supply engines only. Is that's it?

[Slowinfastout]

Board of Directors are meeting next week, and the "reliable source" is predicting that announcement after the meeting is going to be that Mercedes will supply engines only. Is that's it?

Yes, he claims to know the 'definitive conclusion' of next week's board meeting.

[Sakae]

Could be that a proposal (and interim decision at lower mgt ranks) was reached, and BoD's next week needs to ratify it. Beats me where is the leak, and why.

[jjpm]

A few months ago this person on the same Moncet's blog mentionned heavy black clouds rolling toward Mercedes F1 team, yet didn't gave any specifics at that time.

[Sakae]

I wish we would know whether he speculates, or he really has reliable inside source. Trouble with this is, if Mercedes would really care, they can hire quietly inestigatiors, and it dosen't take too much to find who has leaked the info. (It's important for other matters in the future as well to plug the hole). Now think about it; you are probably well paid, sitting in a nice room, leading comfortable life, and you would risk it all that you will destroy your career just because some blogger wanted to be first with the news?

It doesn't make any sense (at least not to me).
Conclusion - there is no leak, but a lot of guessing, which at the end when suits come out, may or may not be proven as correct one.

Edited by Sakae, 16 August 2012 - 15:33.

[Slowinfastout]

It's not necessarily one giant leak, it could be that the rumour is buzzing throughout the company and people pretty high in the food chain aren't doing anything to kill it, and/or confirming off the record that the rumour is not unfounded.

On the other hand, it will always be a good time for wild speculation until the new Concorde agreement is fully sorted.

[jjpm]

I wish we would know whether he speculates, or he really has reliable inside source. Trouble with this is, if Mercedes would really care, they can hire quietly inestigatiors, and it dosen't take too much to find who has leaked the info. (It's important for other matters in the future as well to plug the hole). Now think about it; you are probably well paid, sitting in a nice room, leading comfortable life, and you would risk it all that you will destroy your career just because some blogger wanted to be first with the news?

It doesn't make any sense (at least not to me).
Conclusion - there is no leak, but a lot of guessing, which at the end when suits come out, may or may not be proven as correct one.

In any case this is not some random blogger with a lot of imagination... But you should know that members of specialized press often, if not always, share their infos between them , their best way to ensure that the info is solid, before publishing and then decide which one of them will be the first to publish it (getting credit for a scoop).

Edited by jjpm, 16 August 2012 - 15:45.

[Sakae]

In any case this is not some random blogger with a lot of imagination... But you should know that members of specialized press often, if not always, share their infos between them , their best way to ensure that the info is solid, before publishing and then decide which one of them will be the first to publish it (getting credit for a scoop).

It is not my intention to offend anyone, I assure you, but there are some problems with such "news". If the decision was reached, we would know now, and there is no need for special meeting next week to ... (fill the blanks: ratify, decide, approve budget, approve adjusted strategy, etc.). If I am not mistaken, it is Sales and Marketing who are responsible for F1 budget at Mercedes. VP would merely inform others in most polite manner, but it's his budget after all. Dr. Zetsche, a strong proponent of racing, will want to have it explained, especially if there are legal aspects that could prevent their continuation. It could be as simple as issues with time-line. Court case is open, Mercedes is left hanging on legal grounds, yet FOM is pushing for CA to be signed, now. There are myriad of issues we do not know about.

Deductive reasoning from the people standing in the front of building is in full swing.

Edited by Sakae, 16 August 2012 - 16:05.