278 replies to this topic

[showtime]

Oh yes, he was SO lucky!! Hadn´t someone made a mistake/some equipment failed fueling the car, he would start from 3rd place and probably won the race after Lewis had to park it. Luckyly for him, not enough fuel went on the car, so he started from the back, navigated through backmarkers, assumed high risks, and got a result worse than he would have got.



The guy was really lucky in Abu Dhabi!!

So an error made by the team is bad luck. Then you have to admit he is (with Webber) the luckiest driver on the grid, his team has provided him the best car in the grid.

[Skinnyguy]

Not going to argue semantics with you. Get a grip. Saying someone has been lucky just after having a weekend screwed by no fault of his own is as close to trolling as you can get.

[choyothe]

So an error made by the team is bad luck. Then you have to admit he is (with Webber) the luckiest driver on the grid, his team has provided him the best car in the grid.

Error by team, Renault, whatever, is bad luck for Vettel. Such as the situation in AD.

If you want to consider nothing else but the pure pace of the car (and ignore anything else, a common trait among the Alonso-fans ), then yes, overall Vettel and Webber have been the most privileged (I wouldn't use lucky) in that regard.

[7MGTEsup]

Not going to argue semantics with you. Get a grip. Saying someone has been lucky just after having a weekend screwed by no fault of his own is as close to trolling as you can get.

But can't you see he was also lucky in the fact that he could have quite easily been put out through contact with other cars and had a big help from the second safety car? So he was both unlucky and lucky.

[choyothe]

But can't you see he was also lucky in the fact that he could have quite easily been put out through contact with other cars and had a big help from the second safety car? So he was both unlucky and lucky.

Without any good or bad luck Vettel would've won that race and would have won the title in Austin so it's needless to say he was unlucky in AD.

[Juggles]

I'm really excited about this one. The last two championship-deciding season finales in Brazil both involved Hamilton as one of the protagonists so I couldn't enjoy the build up at all. My overriding feeling through those two weekends was terror. This time I can just sit back and watch it play out with my fingernails intact.

Vettel holds all the cards; he has the points lead, the faster car and several cars who can stop Alonso getting the podium he needs even if Vettel DNFs. The jokers are Red Bull reliability (which has actually been pretty good this season, at least on Vettel's car) and the weather.

I am no longer sure who I want to win. I said after Abu Dhabi I was content that Vettel had done enough to be a worthy champion this season. In some ways his race there reminded me of Hamilton in Monaco 08; he damaged his car at the start but was able to make it back to the front with excellent pace in the middle part of the race. I thought Hamilton drove a very good race there so it would be unfair not to give Vettel similar credit. The safety cars helped but he was banging in the lap times and deserved to be on the podium more than Button.

Alonso continues to make it on to the podium but hasn't had the sprinkle of stardust he had up to Germany; overall I think the brilliance of his season has been slightly overstated and Vettel's slightly understated. Alonso has been helped out by his teammate, the failures of his rivals (not driving failures either, team failures) and the weather. Vettel has been helped out by having a faster car. They are probably about where they deserve to be in relation to each other.

While I'm ambivalent on who wins the championship purely in the context of this season, I do still struggle to see Vettel as a three time world champion already. It's all come a bit too quickly and, it could be argued, too easily. I think when people look back on the 2009-2013 epoch they will see it as the era of Red Bull as much as the era of Vettel. Those two go together inseperably which is why I don't feel we have the information to raise Vettel to greatness yet; I want to see what happens in 2014 and beyond.

For now though I'm just going to enjoy this race. I think Hamilton has as good a chance of a Brazil victory as he's ever had, but perhaps back-to-back wins in his last two races is too much to hope for. If you want a vaguely encouraging statistic, Hamilton has scored consecutive wins three times in his career, once in each of the seasons he competed for the championship (Canada-US in 07, Britain-Germany in 08 and Turkey-Canada in 10). When he took pole in Singapore I saw him as favourite for the championship so, while his campaign has been dead for several races, I at least dared to believe for a time. His driving has certainly been champion class as well, so if that counts for anything he may just sign off in perfect style.

Prediction: if the race is dry, Vettel will be world champion. If the race is wet, **** knows.

[OoxLox]

Is the build up to the season finale going to be just a massive flame war between Vettel and Alonso fans? Can't the rest of us join in savouring the prospect without the thread turning into a bile-fest?

[F1ultimate]

. In some ways his race there reminded me of Hamilton in Monaco 08; he damaged his car at the start but was able to make it back to the front with excellent pace in the middle part of the race.

Vettel's Abu Dhabi was nothing like Lewis' Mona 08. Completely different circumstances. Vettel's storm in Abu Dhabi is was nothing new. We've seen it a few times before this season where drivers have started outside the top 10 and been able to blitz through the field thanks to fresh tires and straights that allow overtaking i.e Kimi in Bahrain, Perez Canda, Webber in Valencia and Vettel in Spa.

[showtime]

Not going to argue semantics with you. Get a grip. Saying someone has been lucky just after having a weekend screwed by no fault of his own is as close to trolling as you can get.

It's not a question of semantics but of consistence. It all depends on how you want to face the matter:

If you separate the the driver from the team then you are right to consider everything he can't controls a luck factor. But if you do that you should be consistent and also consider all the good things and call them good luck. If Abu Dhabi error from the team is bad luck then every time he has a dominant car and wins cruising from pole, mostly thanks to the work made by the team, you have to admit there's a lot of luck in that win.
When talking about the WDC I prefer to see driver+team combos so I only consider bad/good luck when neither driver nor team has control over it (SC, another driver taking you out...).

Both ways are ok as long as you maintain your choice, the way you jump from one to another to serve your interest is way closer to trolling that what I was saying.

[Juggles]

Vettel's Abu Dhabi was nothing like Lewis' Mona 08. Completely different circumstances. Vettel's storm in Abu Dhabi is was nothing new. We've seen it a few times before this season where drivers have started outside the top 10 and been able to blitz through the field thanks to fresh tires and straights that allow overtaking i.e Kimi in Bahrain, Perez Canda, Webber in Valencia and Vettel in Spa.

The point I was trying to make is that Vettel didn't really blitz through the field, certainly not when it came to the faster half of the grid. Seeing it in those terms is failing to understand why it was a good drive. Both results came from excellent pace more than excellent racecraft, and both had a healthy dose of luck along the way.

[turssi]

Just a quick weather update:

Monday had rain after midnight
Tuesday it rained maybe 7km away from the track around 4pm
Wednesday so far (around 3pm local time) has been sunny but windy with temps between 20 and 25 Celsius

[milestone 11]

I read another transcription in this forum saying: "Unbelievable, it´s stupid how easy is to overtake in these years F1". It was our broadcasters guess too. Video anyone?

I aso didn't think the message was that long. In fact though you are almost spot on Here from 17.29.
"Unbelievable, it's stupid how easy it is to overtake in formula one these days. Stupid overtake. It was Karthikeyan's fault."

Edited by milestone 11, 22 November 2012 - 16:51.

[goingthedistance]

I aso didn't think the message was that long. In fact though you are almost spot on Here from 17.29.
"Unbelievable, it's stupid how easy it is to overtake in formula one these days. It was Karthikeyan's fault."

You're right, I think he does rant about DRS.

[D.M.N.]

Weather update: http://f1weather.com...midweek-update/

Saturday - Dry
Sunday - Heavy rain

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

I wouldn't go quite as far as saying Saturday dry. More accurate would be FP3 more than likely dry, quali on a knife edge and could be dry, could be wet, could be a mix, with the race currently looking very likely to be wet.

[DanardiF1]

You're right, I think he does rant about DRS.

He knows it's the same for everyone... how did he get past Button in Abu Dhabi...

And if he had spoken to Karthikeyan he would've found out that Charlie told him not to move out of the way in that first sector from turns 2-7.

[Boxerevo]

I aso didn't think the message was that long. In fact though you are almost spot on Here from 17.29.
"Unbelievable, it's stupid how easy it is to overtake in formula one these days. It was Karthikeyan's fault."

Strange,live i just listened till these days and his engineer later saying to focus,the "Karthikeyan's fault" was cutted.

Edited by Boxerevo, 21 November 2012 - 18:16.

[Coops3]

I aso didn't think the message was that long. In fact though you are almost spot on Here from 17.29.
"Unbelievable, it's stupid how easy it is to overtake in formula one these days. It was Karthikeyan's fault."

The words "stupid overtake" are also in there.

[goingthedistance]

Narain in the press today was pretty much saying he was fed up with Vettel's moaning:

"I cannot listen to this nonsense anymore," Karthikeyan is quoted as saying by Auto Motor und Sport. "In the drivers' briefing, Charlie said we do not have to let any one past in the twisty section of the first sector. It is simply not possible, because apart from the ideal line it is extremely dirty.

"Charlie told us that we should let the faster drivers pass after Turn 8, the first slow corner after the fast section. So that's what I did. Vettel was also present at the briefing, has he sometimes not been listening? He does this too often and it's too intense. Slowly, I'm starting to get tired of it."

http://totalf1.com/f...l_after_Austin/

With HRT pretty much confirmed to be going out of business, NK wouldn't have much to lose if he went a little rogue on Seb at Brazil! I've seen odder things.

I don't think NK did anything wrong at Austin - eventually Lewis and Seb were going to hit a backmarker in that part of the track, and it was going to be the thing that cut the gap enough. To me I thought that's exactly what Lewis was hanging back and waiting for.

[7MGTEsup]

He knows it's the same for everyone... how did he get past Button in Abu Dhabi...

Exactly, you can't use it to your advantage one week and then bitch about it the next when its you who gets jumped.

[Kingshark]

Narain in the press today was pretty much saying he was fed up with Vettel's moaning:

"I cannot listen to this nonsense anymore," Karthikeyan is quoted as saying by Auto Motor und Sport. "In the drivers' briefing, Charlie said we do not have to let any one past in the twisty section of the first sector. It is simply not possible, because apart from the ideal line it is extremely dirty.

"Charlie told us that we should let the faster drivers pass after Turn 8, the first slow corner after the fast section. So that's what I did. Vettel was also present at the briefing, has he sometimes not been listening? He does this too often and it's too intense. Slowly, I'm starting to get tired of it."

http://totalf1.com/f...l_after_Austin/

With HRT pretty much confirmed to be going out of business, NK wouldn't have much to lose if he went a little rogue on Seb at Brazil! I've seen odder things.

I don't think NK did anything wrong at Austin - eventually Lewis and Seb were going to hit a backmarker in that part of the track, and it was going to be the thing that cut the gap enough. To me I thought that's exactly what Lewis was hanging back and waiting for.

That would be quite something.

[molive]

Fernando Alonso - Winner of Hungary 03, Malaysia 05, Bahrain 05, San Marino 05, Europe 05, France 05, Germany 05, China 05, Bahrain 06, Australia 06, Spain 06, Monaco 06, Britain 06, Canada 06, Japan 06, Malaysia 07, Monaco 07, Germany 07, Italy 07, Singapore 08, Japan 08, Bahrain 10, Germany 10, Italy 10, Singapore 10, Korea 10, Britain 11, Malaysia 12, Europe 12 & Germany 12 - 30 wins and still counting.

So, Alonso never won in Brazil...I wonder why.

[Disgrace]

He's never had the fastest car on the day there.

[Kingshark]

Usually, to some extend even I as an Alonso fan find the "he wins with slow cars" argument rather tiresome, but I agree with that. He has never had the best car around Interlagos although one could argue that he would have won in 2003 if it wasn't for his crash with Jaguar debris and a Michelin tyre. Unlike Kimi or Fisi, he had already done his final pit stop.

[molive]

Here's some Interlagos trivia, just to lighten-up this thread a bit:

1. The area where Interlagos is located was bought in 1938 by two local businessmen but the first time an F1 took to the track was in 1973.



2. Interlagos is 4.3km long and 71 laps total 305.9 km.

3. The record time for a GP is 1h28’01″451, with an average 208,517 km/h, set in 2004.

4. The real name of the track is Autodromo José Carlos Pace, in honour of the Brazilian F1 driver who died in a plane crash after winning a race there (his only win in F1).

5. The track runs anti-clockwise (not very common).

6. The fastest race lap was set by Juan Pablo Montoya in 2004, with a time of 1’11”437.

7. The fastest qualifying lap is by Rubens Barrichelo, also in 2004, with 1’10″646.

8. Fittipaldi, Senna, Massa and José Carlos Pace were the only Brazilians to win in Interlagos. Barrichelo came very close but never won in his backyard.

9. Schumacher is the most victorious in Interlagos, with 4 wins.

10. Interlagos hosted title-deciders in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 (now we add 2012 to the list).

11. Senna won there in 1991 and 1993. The 1991 win was epic (with 6 laps remaining he lost 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, when he had a 4sec lead). Here a video of this unforgetable moment.

12. Both 2008 and 2009 champions were from Britain, both drove the car #22, both drove cars with Mercedes engines and both finished in the same position (5th).

[SamH123]

Some good posts in this thread especially the longer ones

Wet race is around a 65% chance now, it's going to be a tense weekend!

[Skinnyguy]

He has never had the best car around Interlagos although one could argue that he would have won in 2003 if it wasn't for his crash with Jaguar debris and a Michelin tyre. Unlike Kimi or Fisi, he had already done his final pit stop.

No way. Watched that race recently. Alonso and Räikkönen didn´t stand a chance. A car on Bridgestone wet tyres would have won that GP even if it had gone to the flag. Track was almost ready for slicks except for turn 3. Bridgestone tyred cars -not only winner- were several seconds per lap faster than any other car in these conditions. Michelin wet tyres were slow, and they couldn´t use slicks yet because of turn 3.

Had race gone to the end, there was a pitstop to make for every Michelin team on track. Not because of fuel, everyone had already fuel to go to the end after the last SC, but for tyres. Their wet tyres were painfully slow and very damaged, they would need another set of those to get to the end, or a set of slicks if turn 3 got safe.

Brazil 2003 was won without the fastest car, and it would have been like that whoever won, because the fastest cars for the conditions in which the race took place after the last SC were in the wall/broken down: Ferrari. They struggled initially, but would have been unstopable in late semi dry conditions.

[nada12]

Here's some Interlagos trivia, just to lighten-up this thread a bit:

1. The area where Interlagos is located was bought in 1938 by two local businessmen but the first time an F1 took to the track was in 1973.

Everytime I see a map I'm a little sad that I've never seen a race on the original track. Imagine a race with current cars on that layout. It's abit weird that the old part of road is still mostly there, decaying right next to the current track.

[Seanspeed]

So, Alonso never won in Brazil...I wonder why.

Why?

[lbennie]

Webber owns this place

[Seanspeed]

Webber owns this place

No wonder he always goes well here.

Edited by Seanspeed, 22 November 2012 - 02:53.

[hsvone]

Exactly, you can't use it to your advantage one week and then bitch about it the next when its you who gets jumped.

Definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Vettel needed the DRS to pass all those cars at the previous race in Abu Dhabi. Short memory?

[Vesuvius]

Weather update: http://f1weather.com...midweek-update/

Saturday - Dry
Sunday - Heavy rain

If it will be heavy rain, interlagos has huge problems like in the past, so we will have at least a massive delay to the race

[Jimisgod]

I hope it's very changeable conditions, like Hungary was in 2006 or 2011. You know if it rains like 2003 the whole race will be SC, so hopefully it alternates between storms.

[Cesc]

Current standings with previous points systems:

Pre-2003

1. Vettel 90
2. Alonso 80
3. Hamilton 59
4. Raikkonen 51

Vettel would be WDC already.

2003-2009

1. Vettel 112
2. Alonso 106
3. Raikkonen 82
4. Hamilton 74

Similar situation to current one.

Edited by Cesc, 22 November 2012 - 09:56.

[jstrains]

Are there any forecasts for the life expectancy of the Renault Alternators?

I think there are so many things that can influence this race, just wait until Sunday and we will see

[engel]

Are there any forecasts for the life expectancy of the Renault Alternators?

I think there are so many things that can influence this race, just wait until Sunday and we will see

the alternators are sourced from Magneti Marelli actually. There ya go, conspiracy theorists can go nuts now

[korzeniow]

the alternators are sourced from Magneti Marelli actually. There ya go, conspiracy theorists can go nuts now

this is not conspiracy but true story, Renault supplies teams with alternators from 2011 season batch because their 2012 batch were broking constantly

Renault run out of 2011 batch at the USA GP

[jstrains]

You see? It can by sunny, it can rain, a Renault alternator can still fail. A Ferrari might break down as well so it makes no sense to speculate...

[molive]

Why?

Here we call it a "taboo" (something a bit lighter than a curse).

[Jon83]

Webber owns this place

When his teammate has a problem or when he is almost chopping an opponent on the first lap, sure.

[jrg19]

Skysports F1 now for drivers press conference.

[schumimercamg]

Skysports F1 now for drivers press conference.

Lol. It was until it broke!

[goingthedistance]

Terrible moment to drop out! Just as Vettel was giving the journalist a hard core death stare when questioned about Bernie's "Seb lacks charisma" statement.

Edited by goingthedistance, 22 November 2012 - 13:22.

[jrg19]

Its gone off completely! FFS.

[schumimercamg]

Terrible moment to drop out! Just as Vettel was giving the journalist a hard core death stare when questioned about Bernie's "Seb lacks charisma" statement.

Indeed!

[Moore]

Sure it did this last week as well...

[jrg19]

Got a message about swearing too, i didn't hear anything?

Maybe it cut off because there was a massive kick off!!

[Moore]

Its gone to USA highlights now, ah **** it.

[CrashPad]

Propably not the best place to share my thoughts on the subject but man, I just realized what a fantastic season we have had in 2012:
-WDC going down to the wire
-8 different winners
-Williams returning to winning ways
-Former champion performing a brilliant comeback
-No serious accidents
-Teams like Sauber and Williams mixing it up with the big boys
-Brilliant racing overall
-etc.

The only thing I miss is Schumacher getting a victory for the one last time, not a fan of him or anything but that would be awesome