830 replies to this topic

[dau]

What is interesting is the fact that Vergnier tried to finish just 20 seconds behind Vettel, so if there was a punishment, there would be no worry.

1) Why did Red Bull think that?

2) He didn't finished 20 seconds, so it could be fatal!

Let the FIA decide.

It's pretty obvious Vettel wasn't in a hurry at the end of the race, he trundled across the line after doing a 2min final lap, more than 10s slower than Vergne. The gap was 30.8s in the penultimate lap. Make of that what you will.

[cooper]

This is a stupid argument, because if Vergne wanted to finish more than 20s behind, he would have actually done that. Furthermore, wouldn't it have been simpler to retire Webber (which in my opinion the team should have done anyway, as he gained nothing noteworthy with his non-podium finish), than to rely on the alleged inter-team conspiracy ?

It's because RB don't use dirty tactics

[mnmracer]

Well, Alonso fans refer to a deadline of November 30, which applies to every race of the season, not just the last one. Otherwise, the "normal" deadline for protesting a race is 30 minutes after the end of the race.

I am glad that Alonso is not from Florida, or we'd have to wait until October next year before anyone concedes.

[fabr68]

Will Ferrari protest? Unlikely as they know that the time limit for protest has passed.

The limit to protest is Nov 30.

If Ferrari does not protest by then we will know if this holds water or not.

[Nycco]

Why do Alonso fans want him to win that way ? Penalties is not racing, racing is on the track and this year Ferrari was never good enough ! Being champion with three wins out of 20 would have been a joke.

[Nonesuch]

Well, Alonso fans refer to a deadline of November 30, which applies to every race of the season, not just the last one. Otherwise, the "normal" deadline for protesting a race is 30 minutes after the end of the race.

Ah, interesting. Thanks for clarifying!

Penalties is not racing, racing is on the track and this year Ferrari was never good enough ! Being champion with three wins out of 20 would have been a joke.

Tell that to Keke Rosberg. Heck, even recently Kimi was three points away from winning the title in 2003 with just one win!

It's not the Olympics where it's about medals, in F1 the game is about points.

[Cenotaph]

Yep, and Vettel got more of those on track.

[cooper]

Why do Alonso fans want him to win that way ? Penalties is not racing, racing is on the track and this year Ferrari was never good enough ! Being champion with three wins out of 20 would have been a joke.

I don't think it's just because they want Alonso to be champion, there is also an element of Vettel envy. He's just rocked into F1 and had so much success within a short period of time (and made it look easy). There are a lot of people who want to see Vettel not get his 3rd WDC in a row for that reason alone.

I'm just happy this year wasn't another 2011 snoozefest where there wasn't a championship fight. My guess is Ferrari won't do anything about this!

[Cenotaph]

My guess is Ferrari won't do anything about this!

That's my opinion as well, most of this talk is only a frivolous attempt to give some satisfaction to his fans of a moral victory. Something to fuel the masses, if you will. They have more to lose than to gain and they know it.

[fabr68]

Why do Alonso fans want him to win that way ? Penalties is not racing, racing is on the track and this year Ferrari was never good enough ! Being champion with three wins out of 20 would have been a joke.

It seems this issue is clear as mud. More information/videos that are not available to the fans must be examined.

I dont think you can blame fans teams or drivers if the regulations allow to add missed penalties after the race is complete.

Like Vettel fans would be happy and Alonso was the one winning the title with a possible penalty missed on him.

We will know by Friday if a penalty was missed or not.

[Diablobb81]

Instead of hypothetical questions why don't you say why Monaco 2010 is a precedent since these were two completely different situations?

And do you agree that your video shows almost certainly that there was a green flag?


And if we talk about dirty overtakes we can get back to Monza 2012 if you want and also talk about unjust penalties.

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 14:45.

[josepatches]

Green flag. The video is great.

http://www.youtube.c...;v=Ku979qCzAWA#!




http://blog.axisofov...ase-closed.html

[Cenotaph]

The real frustration though lies in knowing that he got beat on track. Alonso fans know that overtake didn't give Vettel a significant advantage even if it was illegal, it was not the reason Vettel was back behind Alonso after their 2nd pitstop, they also know that a possible drive-through would be annulled by the SC on lap 20 something. They also know that the race ended in SC conditions, so the effects of a 20s penalty would be higher than they should've been (Vettel was already 20s clear of Vergne with two laps to go), so in the stuff that matters (the actual racing) they know there is absolutely nothing to justify a title to Alonso. Simply put, he didn't earn it.

In the end, it's what makes this so pathetic.

[LiJu914]

Green flag. The video is great.

http://www.youtube.c...;v=Ku979qCzAWA#!




http://blog.axisofov...ase-closed.html

Gif without pauses:

[BigBadBless]

Why do Alonso fans want him to win that way ? Penalties is not racing, racing is on the track and this year Ferrari was never good enough ! Being champion with three wins out of 20 would have been a joke.

What do you mean? If the incident had happened at, say, Silverstone 2012, and was discovered on review 2 days later and he was handed a subsequent 30 second penalty and lost 3 positions, or something like that, then it would have been argued over at the time but accepted, then when Alonso won the championship at Brazil it wouldn't have been seen as 'winning it via a penalty'. Just because it's the last race doesn't make it exempt from having its results revised.

That said, I don't agree with Seb having done anything wrong anyway, so I don't agree with the thread or any penalties etc.

Edited by StefanArak, 28 November 2012 - 14:49.

[krea]

Interesting that outside of some youtube videos, biased blogs and the spanish press no one cares about this.

[superuser]

[fayah69]

interesting video

[josepatches]

Gif without pauses:

Thanks.

I guess it's clear now

[PilgrimsDrop]

Interesting that outside of some youtube videos, biased blogs and the spanish press no one cares about this.

And it's really interesting that Ferrari themselves doesn't stir up noise about this... if there actually was any wrong doing... but hey... spanish media knows more than they do right?

[Diablobb81]

Just because it's the last race doesn't make it exempt from having its results revised.

But that's the worse that could happen : races being constantly revised after they ended. That should always be the exception and not a rule (i'm not talking about incidents which the stewards say will be analyzed after the race, although this should be used only for retired drivers).

That way we could probably find at every race something to change. Were would this madness end?

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 November 2012 - 14:54.

[SpaMaster]

It is quite clear that it was a green flag. Look at all the desperate comments that were so sure Vettel needs to be penalized. Yet they could never prove that there was a yellow flag on that marshal post. I am sure all these make them feel very good.

[sv401]

What do you mean? If the incident had happened at, say, Silverstone 2012, and was discovered on review 2 days later and he was handed a subsequent 30 second penalty

Normally, a team should indicate its intention to protest a race result within 30 minutes after the race. Only in extraordinary cases (it is up to the FIA to decide if a particular incident qualifies as such) does the November 30 deadline apply. Otherwise, if all the minor racing incidents could be reviewed days, weeks, or even months after the race, the championship would be turned into a farce by the continuous protests and appeals.

Of course, the protest debate is pointless because the overtake apparently was not illegal in the first place.

Edited by sv401, 28 November 2012 - 15:23.

[Coops3]

Looks like a green flag to me.

[encircled]

Gif without pauses:

Thanks for this. That's a much better quality than the one I have.

[stillOrange]

I just want to thank few guys here like engel and LiJu914 for taking their time and putting some effort in trying to clarify what happened during Vettels overtakes.

To me it very clear now that all the overtakes were legal.

Pity that SOME Alonso fans keep on ignoring what is put in front of them.

[choyothe]

Clearly a green flag from LiJU's vid. I still maintain though that even had it been yellow the move wasn't illegal considering Vergne (for some reason) lifted off to probably lose over a second in that short straight, it's ridiculous to the guy behind to be forced to stay behind and wait to see what he is doing and is he retiring or not.

Edited by choyothe, 28 November 2012 - 15:06.

[Number62]

Even if Ferrari protested (which they won't) and RBR were found guilty (which they aren't) and penalised 20s (which they wont be) putting them 9th.

RBR can then simply declare Webber and Vergne's cars retrospectively illegal on a technicality and have them disqualified. Vettel back to 7th

Ferrari could hardly complain as they set the precedent for deliberately penalising one driver for the betterment of the other.

[PJayBe]

Everyday I look at the emailings I get from Autosport, and at the sports pages of my daily rag. There's lots about Grand Prix racing in general, and bits about the Brazilian race in particular, but nowt about this.

This suggests a TOTAL NON-STORY whatever we may have thought in the heat of the moment on Sunday.

Yes I wanted Alonso to win (something I haven't said for a while), and yes, I thought Seb made a dodgy pass, but nobody else seems to think so, so I accept that I read the situation wrong. If something pops up to porve conclusively that things were as some here still seem to see them, then we'll take it from there, but until then, face it, the better car won......

Philip

[PedroR]

Electrics Lights have priority over flags ( I readed it in somewhere...) so will see ;)

[superuser]

Electrics Lights have priority over flags ( I readed it in somewhere...) so will see ;)

Where, in a Spanish website? The dashboard indicators are not even mentioned in the rulebook. The flags and the light boards are equal. End of story.

[August]

Gif without pauses:

If it were a yellow flag, wouldn't they only hang it like here? (unless there's a VERY bad situation) As they wave it, it must be green.

[EvanRainer]

The sad thing of all this is that some people are adamant in continuing to advocate essentially that:

Vettel is stupid enough to overtake under yellow.
The stewards are stupid enough to miss it.
Ferrari is stupid enough to not protest it, even though it was pointed to them.

[Zava]

Electrics Lights have priority over flags ( I readed it in somewhere...) so will see ;)

then what is the point in having marshal posts with no lights, but flags?

[artista]

Electrics Lights have priority over flags ( I readed it in somewhere...) so will see ;)

This is not even about electric flashing lights having priority over flags or not (regardless of where you read it), this is about a marshalling sector, where there is a marshal post and no electric flashing lights.

The official map with the positions of the lights and the marshals has already been posted a few times, here we have it again, from the official FIA site: http://184.106.145.7...012-circuit.pdf
Again, yellow point: electric flag (called marshal lights in the map). Green point: marshals with their flags.
There are marshalling sectors where there are marshals and lights and marshalling sectors where there are only marshals.

Vettel passes Vergne in the straight after turn 3. And there, there is a green point, just a green point. That marshal doesn't have lights (and I'm not referring to his intelligence), which means that what he indicates does not necessarily coincide with the last flashing light you've seen. And that's why it was important to know which colour the flag of the marshal in that sector was, because the last flashing light corresponds to the previous sector.

[crespo]

I just wish this would all go away. I wouldn't want to win this way.

- Disappointed Alonso fan

[PedroR]

I just wish this would all go away. I wouldn't want to win this way.

- Disappointed Alonso fan

Me too Crespo, me too

[superuser]

I just wish this would all go away. I wouldn't want to win this way.

- Disappointed Alonso fan

Don't worry, there is no such danger. All overtakes were outside the yellow flag zones. I blame Alonso for this. With his constant rubbishing of his car and Vettel driving throughout the season, his supporters are hell bent to do "justice" by whatever means necessary. There is no injustice here, the most deserving team/driver combo won the title.

[Kelateboy]

Normally, a team should indicate its intention to protest a race result within 30 minutes after the race. Only in extraordinary cases (it is up to the FIA to decide if a particular incident qualifies as such) does the November 30 deadline apply. Otherwise, if all the minor racing incidents could be reviewed days, weeks, or even months after the race, the championship would be turned into a farce by the continuous protests and appeals.

Of course, the protest debate is pointless because the overtake apparently was not illegal in the first place.

179bis. Right of review
If, in events forming part of a FIA Championship, a new element is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, must meet on a date agreed amongst themselves,summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them.

The right of appeal against this new decision is confined to the party or parties concerned in accordance with the final paragraph of Article 180 and the following Articles of this Code.

Should the first decision already have been the subject of an appeal before the National Court of Appeal or before the International Court of Appeal, or successively before both of these courts, the case shall be lawfully submitted to them for the possible revision of their previous decision. The International Court of Appeal may take up the review of a case that it has judged, either on its own initiative or upon an appeal in review brought by the FIA President or by one of the parties concerned and/or directly affected by its former decision.

The period during which an appeal in review may be brought expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is likely to have an effect on the result of a championship.

Does the above regulation give Ferrari the right to protest up to 30 November? My understanding is that it is entirely up to the FIA to initiate the review, and the protest from Ferrari is not a condition precedent to initiating such review. If the FIA feels that there is not enough evidence to initiate a review, then there is nothing Ferrari could do about it.

[sharo]

It's quite funny and entertaining to see how Alonso fans and in general Vettel/RBR anti-fans all have turned into Hercules Poirots
Only in the movies they can take a handful of blurred pixel and make a razor sharp image, TV cameras, broadcast, signal processing and TV/display screens all contribute to color distortion. Put on top of that the dynamic refreshing of the LED boards interfering with TV frames refresh rates and you get one big mess.
I didn't care to read all that desperate stuff, because for me the reaction of Ferrari and other teams is clear enough, but I haven't seen any quote of the actual flag rules in the FIA rule book as well as an analysis over them whether they prohibit overtaking at all times or not and if not, then when.

Finally I fail to understand the people who during a race meticulously search for possible penalty infringements instead for the joy and excitement from the racing itself. I also fail to understand passionate desire to alter the result days and weeks after the event have concluded. There's something pervert in this.

Edited by sharo, 28 November 2012 - 16:01.

[fabr68]

Finally I fail to understand the people who during a race meticulously search for possible penalty infringements instead for the joy and excitement from the racing itself. I also fail to understand passionate desire to alter the result days and weeks after the event have concluded. There's something pervert in this.

Do you agree with Alonso keeping his Singapore 2008 win?

Even if he knew nothing about the crashing his win was not valid because of Renault cheating. And I am a big Alonso fan.

I dont think there is anything wrong with investigating infractions after the fact if the sport regulations allowing to do so. See Lance Armstrong case.

With this said it seems clear Vettel did a fantastic job at timing the sectors just right and competing the overtake with razor sharp precision within the rules.

[Skinnyguy]

It's quite funny and entertaining to see how Alonso fans and in general Vettel/RBR anti-fans all have turned into Hercules Poirots

You´re missing the best part: Alonso and his manager making mystic tweets about rules, law, justice... suggesting there´s something ilegal but not being open about it to back off just in case it all is a nonissue in the end.

It´s normal fans get dragged by a guy thinking he saw something in onboard videos and campaigning without bothering to check their facts... but the press still going at it 3 days after the GP with blatant graphic evidence prooving them wrong, and the driver himself plus his manager moaning... it´s all beyond absurd.

[superuser]

As I said, I blame Alonso for this. With his constant talk throughout the season that his car is rubbish and he's in the contention only because he's so much better than Vettel, he created this atmosphere of hate towards the eventual winner.

[aditya-now]

That's quite something, but a 20 seconds penalty for Vettel (and I guess this is what he would have gotten, if Ferrari had protested in time) would put him 7th:

6 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 71 +9.4 secs 8
7 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 71 +11.9 secs 6
8 1Jean-Eric Vergne STR-Ferrari 71 +28.6 secs 4


(points is the last digit)

So that wouldn't change the WDC standings.


EDIT: GOT IT WRONG, nevermind.

Yes, nevermind, because Vergne and Schumacher would let him pass by anyway.

[Skinnyguy]

As I said, I blame Alonso for this. With his constant talk throughout the season that his car is rubbish and he's in the contention only because he's so much better than Vettel, he created this atmosphere of hate towards the eventual winner.

NO. He isn´t resposable of a fan wanting to see something where there´s nothing to see. However, his tweets adding gas on the fire are far from smart.

[dau]

Green flag. The video is great.

http://www.youtube.c...;v=Ku979qCzAWA#!




http://blog.axisofov...ase-closed.html

Thanks, that settles it. I hope.

[medeni73]

this topic could be renamed to Winter boredom thread...

[Lotusseven]

abc.esIn spanish abc.es you can read following...

The FIA will not act on it´s own initiative

Ferrari has two days to decide whether to appeal against overtaking Vettel and his world title


The FIA will not act on its own in the case of illegal overtaking Sebastian Vettel in the final Grand Prix of Brazil, Fernando Alonso claims. And is the waiting period for Ferrari, which also has no intention of doing so, according to his communications director said to ABC. The deadline is next Friday. The vice president of the Spanish Automobile Federation, Joaquin Verdegay said on ABC Punto Radio the state of affairs: "The facts are not so clear and so obvious. It is so clear that overtaking occurs with yellow flags. If the commissioners would have seen, had imposed a drive through, but Vettel could have made ​​up more pressing. I also hard to see that the Toro Rosso separates both when the race ended with a safety car. "

"In racing there is a right of review, art 179.bis, in case new evidence or if it is prosecuted, can be reviewed Verdegay said. FIA can not act on its own . The right to review only for the parties involved, in this case at Ferrari, and they must do so by 30 November. If interested do not, the FIA will not. All referees right to be wrong. "

"In football you can not reabitrar. In motorsport it is possible. If there is an illegality, it can be reviewed. The question is whether it was illegal goal in the last minute or if it was a foul in midfield in the fifth minute. eventually do not know if Ferrari really happy if given reason with a title like that. "

abc.es

Edited by Lotusseven, 28 November 2012 - 17:15.

[Clatter]

As I said, I blame Alonso for this. With his constant talk throughout the season that his car is rubbish and he's in the contention only because he's so much better than Vettel, he created this atmosphere of hate towards the eventual winner.

He did?

[josepatches]

The question is the overtake was legal.