642 replies to this topic

[wj_gibson]

Agreed.

If Alonso had spent more time focusing on driving and race strategy, and less time on strategies to demean an opponent, perhaps he would have found those four points he so desperately needed.

What on Earth makes you think those things are some kind of zero-sum phenomena?

Besides, the "four points he so desperately needed" (nice use of emotive language there) could only have come through Alonso actually winning one of the final three races. Which one?

[Winter98]

I wonder if Vettel will ever address other driver's "political" comments on his own. It seems that Marko always has to come out to speak for him.

You have to give credit to drivers like Alonso and Hamilton for that. They may not always say the right thing, but at least they do their own trash-talking.

I think Vettel has done a great job of trash talking. 3 WDCs on the trot is a pretty good comeback, don't you think?

Edited by Winter98, 15 January 2013 - 18:12.

[fatd]

I wonder if Vettel will ever address other driver's "political" comments on his own. It seems that Marko always has to come out to speak for him.

You have to give credit to drivers like Alonso and Hamilton for that. They may not always say the right thing, but at least they do their own trash-talking.

You said that under assumption that Vettel cares about political stuffs in F1 as much as Alonso, then plays his own political games behind Marko's back, which is unlikely for me. He really comes across as someone who doesn't care about such things. Well, if he does care, then hats off to him for playing it so neatly, we can hardly see him playing along ;)

[H2H]

First of all it is remarkable that the words of Marko per have been hardly disputed but much more the wisdom of delivering them. In the end it is just a bit too much truth in them.

Yes, but there were other factors in play that assisted in Alonso's victories in the way that a better car might have for Vettel (inheriting 1st and weather conditions) That was Marko's other point; Seb is doing the best job with what he is given all the time and that is why he remains competitive. When it is weak, he does the best he can - when it is strong, he does the best he can. Since it is always the car + driver, if the driver consistently gives his all - and it is in his best range, then you will have those remarkable moments and other not so remarkable moments, based mainly on the performance of the car. Marko's underlying point is that the RB8 did not give the advantage of Auto-Pilot.

Seb certainly struggled early on, especially in Q3, with the way the car behaved. But he made it up with spades of race craft, getting out the best of a less ideal situation, leading the WDC despite a backmarker crashing into him and collecting a great many of those points which would see him become V3ttel. Not bad, not bad at all.

Edited by H2H, 16 January 2013 - 09:59.

[mnmracer]

Looking back at their years together, Vettel has clearly beaten Webber in qualifying (>75%) every year; Bridgestone, Pirelli, with DRS, without DRS, with KERS, without KERS. A very clear trend, so to assume Webber's closer-to-Vettel in qualifying this year is skill-based, seems a bit odd. Why would Webber now suddenly be a faster driver (or more faster) driver after all those years?

Certainly considering Vettel had the better of Webber in all bar 3 races, it's more likely that with this year's car, Vettel considered it a better strategy to go for a better race set-up, than a better qualifying set-up. If Webber had been as close to Vettel in race pace, I'd say it would be skill based (whether skill, or adaptability), but the most obvious answer would be the set-up.

[mnmracer]

Looking back at their years together, Vettel has clearly beaten Webber in qualifying (>75%) every year; Bridgestone, Pirelli, with DRS, without DRS, with KERS, without KERS. A very clear trend, so to assume Webber's closer-to-Vettel in qualifying this year is skill-based, seems a bit odd. Why would Webber now suddenly be a faster driver (or more faster) driver after all those years?

Certainly considering Vettel had the better of Webber in all bar 3 races, it's more likely that with this year's car, Vettel considered it a better strategy to go for a better race set-up, than a better qualifying set-up. If Webber had been as close to Vettel in race pace, I'd say it would be skill based (whether skill, or adaptability), but the most obvious answer would be the set-up.

[aditya-now]

What I find amusing about the Vettel & Alonso 2012 comparisons, is that both drivers offered very little to criticise if you look at the season as a whole. There are probably 20 drivers on the grid for whom it is easier to spot weaknesses (if that is the purpose of this exercise).

On topic: Ignoring the Webber part, I think Marko has a point by saying that some of the criticism towards Vettel is nonsense or part of psychological games, including some of the things Hamilton (can miss 4 apexes, luckiest driver) and Alonso (100% sure to win the title, Vettel can only win in the best car, fighting Newey) said. That has a negative effect on Vettel's reputation, but whether this effect will remain in the long term is a different matter. It could be that Vettel's approach to focus only on racing and not really joining the verbal fight is best in the long run (or may already have been better in 2010-2012). What Marko says is essentially just some counterbalance of what we hear from McLaren/Ferrari throughout the season.

One of the best posts in this thread, very balanced.

Indeed it is amazing how there is hence and forth criticising of Vettel and Alonso, when both have driven excellent seasons like very few others.

Also, the constant bringing up of Sebastian Vettel joining Ferrari in the future by Luca di Montezemolo is IMHO just stirring the pot and trying to unsettle the balance at Red Bull. Stefano Domenicalli has confirmed yesterday at Wroom that there will be no "dream team" Alonso/Vettel. So Helmut Marko is just dishing back some of the niceties.

[KnucklesAgain]

Domenicali also said that Alonso will respond to criticisms from Red Bull's Helmut Marko that he is 'too political' only on the track.

Stefano DomenicaliMarko caused a stir earlier this month when he suggested that Sebastian Vettel had gained a decisive edge in the world championship because he had not dabbled in the political games that he reckoned Alonso wasted time with.

Domenicali said he was completely happy with Alonso's approach to his job with Ferrari.

"Honestly, I think Fernando is extremely focused on performance and, as always, there are some persons who think they can stimulate reactions in others - to try to tickle them, to attack what they think, and that they may be weaker," said Domenicali.

"But from my viewpoint I can assure you that my focus is to give an answer, a response, on the race track rather than with words - because words don't count for much.

"We are simply going to try and answer to all this by being strong and being in front."

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105137

[BoschKurve]

I could care less if Alonso plays psychological games personally. It's part of all high level competition; players/drivers trying to gain an advantage. It's gone on for years in F1 and it's never been just limited to the paddock. Alonso isn't the first guy to do it, nor will he be the last. There's a lot of stuff that goes on, on the track that never translates to TV. Have a guy behind you at 150+ MPH? Lift off the throttle if you want to play psychological games that may have an effect.

[H2H]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105137

Ironic, isn't it that now we have the talk about the talking on the track, but Mr. Alonso wrote his written answer rather quickly by twitter...

On the other side we hear from guys like Jens Munser that Vettel does discuss his many helmet designs quite a lot with but never talks about the championship...

It seems that Marko hit the mark very well indeed.

P.S: Ferrari did of course come up with the predictable answer, which they themselves should take at heart. They also have no counterpart to Dr. Marko to do that kind of stuff without getting overly distracted from their core business - Monte comes the closest, I guess.

Edited by H2H, 16 January 2013 - 17:48.

[Buttoneer]

Deleted a lot of posts.

The thread is to discuss Marko's comments and not whether Alonso is better than Vettel. Please respect the intentions of the opening post.

[boldhakka]

. Have a guy behind you at 150+ MPH? Lift off the throttle if you want to play psychological games that may have an effect.

You seem a tad confused about what a mind game is.

Edited by boldhakka, 17 January 2013 - 02:50.

[gillesthegenius]

What on Earth makes you think those things are some kind of zero-sum phenomena?

Besides, the "four points he so desperately needed" (nice use of emotive language there) could only have come through Alonso actually winning one of the final three races. Which one?

Im not too sure about that. Given how carefully Fernando drove all season, Im left wondering as to how much the frustration of not seeing Seb being handed out a penalty at Suzuka, inspite of his and Ferrari's supposedly desperate attempts to earn Seb one, contributed to his rather uncharacteristically hasty - or even desperate(?) - start there that resulted in him being punted out by Kimi.

[KnucklesAgain]

Alonso speaks.

"I do not think I am very good at that," said Alonso about whether or not he was too political. "I simply drive cars.

"I was surprised by those statements, but I think they were simply statements a bit mixed up, a bit meaningless.

"They say that they did not listen and they did not speak. They were saying they were not being influenced by what we said, but it means they did listen or someone woke up at night and read the comments - because they had to calm down.

"They [Marko's comments] were a bit mixed up, without any real control. So I do not think we should pay too much attention to those statements."

Edit: and also he rubbishes the assertion about undervaluing Vettel:

When asked why he did not think Vettel was the strongest driver after winning a third consecutive driver's championship, Alonso said: "I am not saying he is not the strongest driver.

"In 2011, there was a fantastic performance from him. It is true the car was much in front of everybody, they [Red Bull] were first and second consistently, and when the car is good you tend to relax in some races.

"But I remember difficult races in 2011 with wet/dry conditions, and he did not do any single mistake. So for sure in these three years there were moments when he was better than anybody else and he deserved these three championships."

But nevertheless:

"But as for strongest opponent, who is strongest driver? My answer is Hamilton. It was true last year, it was true this year.

"The strongest driver? It is a personal opinion, not political, not to make people think something. Who is the strongest opponent, the strongest driver on grid? Who is the one you have to keep an eye on? It is Hamilton - and it will still be Hamilton next year."

While IMHO all of what he says about Lewis and Seb, respectively, seems reasonable to me if looked at in isolation, I have problems understanding the comments when taken together: Lewis is the strongest driver, but he did not say Seb is not the strongest driver? What? So I guess I will apply what Fernando said about Marko. Fernando's driver comments are "a bit mixed up, without any real control. So I do not think we should pay too much attention to those statements"

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 January 2013 - 11:34.

[mnmracer]

Alonso speaks.

Difference is, that in Alonso's case, it's the driver that is being political rather then driving.
Vettel himself isn't bothering with comments; Marko, the guy there to do politics, is responding.

[KnucklesAgain]

Difference is, that in Alonso's case, it's the driver that is being political rather then driving.
Vettel himself isn't bothering with comments; Marko, the guy there to do politics, is responding.

Well, Alonso was directly addressed by Marko, is he expected to shut up and take it? I think not, he's entitled to respond. As for mind games during the season, drivers have played mind games since forever. No only that, people play mind games even when shooting pool at the local bar. Nothing to get you knickers in a twist about.

[Fontainebleau]

Difference is, that in Alonso's case, it's the driver that is being political rather then driving.
Vettel himself isn't bothering with comments; Marko, the guy there to do politics, is responding.

So basically, you are happy that politics are played. For you, it is just a matter of who plays it.

Now, it would seem that Alonso is able to play the political role and drive, and still come within striking difference in the WDC with Vettel in the RBR, a car that people like sir Frank Williams stated was the better one (are we going to slash Williams for his statement as an ignoramus of F1, or should we give his assesment some credit?). Hence, I fail to see why people are so adamant that he should stop saying what he wants - it does not seem to have an impact on his driving performance.

[mnmracer]

So basically, you are happy that politics are played. For you, it is just a matter of who plays it.

Now, it would seem that Alonso is able to play the political role and drive, and still come within striking difference in the WDC with Vettel in the RBR, a car that people like sir Frank Williams stated was the better one (are we going to slash Williams for his statement as an ignoramus of F1, or should we give his assesment some credit?). Hence, I fail to see why people are so adamant that he should stop saying what he wants - it does not seem to have an impact on his driving performance.

Marko's comment is: Alonso, the driver, should focus on his job, which is racing.

[H2H]

So basically, you are happy that politics are played. For you, it is just a matter of who plays it.

Now, it would seem that Alonso is able to play the political role and drive, and still come within striking difference in the WDC with Vettel in the RBR, a car that people like sir Frank Williams stated was the better one (are we going to slash Williams for his statement as an ignoramus of F1, or should we give his assesment some credit?). Hence, I fail to see why people are so adamant that he should stop saying what he wants - it does not seem to have an impact on his driving performance.

We will never know if the lack of supposed focus by Alonso cost him a couple of points.

What I do find quite interesting was how quickly Alonso twittered back, shows that he is rather well informed and not shy to share his point of view when not directly asked. Nothing wrong with that, good for his many fans, but the contrast with Vettel on this issues is quite stark. So it easy to see Markos point about the focus. That said Alonso is a free man and can do a great deal of what pleases him and it will not certainly me how will make him change...

Edited by H2H, 17 January 2013 - 12:32.

[icewest07]

Wake up people.

Alonso is doing just what Marko said : being political! The season hasn't even started and he's already out there designing his main "opposition" to upset (at least he tries) the front runners. Everyone knows Hamilton talent, but when you've lost the title to Vettel (who came back from your 42points lead) you must show humility and be carefull with your words! Anyway, Alonso seems to consider himself as a living God but he is clever enough to remember that we (F1 watchers) will never forget that year where a certain rookie showed him up! THIS is why Alonso will always praise Hamilton above the rest...

It's a subtil mind game and a dig at Vettel...

[prty]

Marko's comment is: Alonso, the driver, should focus on his job, which is racing.

And he doesn't focus when driving?

[mnmracer]

And he doesn't focus when driving?

That's what Marko implies.
Whether it's true or not of Alonso, we've seen with Hamilton last year how outside-the-cockpit-emotions can affect a driver's performance.

Edited by mnmracer, 17 January 2013 - 12:46.

[BoschKurve]

You seem a tad confused about what a mind game is.

There's a lot of ways to play mind games, don't think they're limited to just words in sports or even racing.

[fabr68]

That's what Marko implies.
Whether it's true or not of Alonso, we've seen with Hamilton last year how outside-the-cockpit-emotions can affect a driver's performance.

The bast majority of team principals disagree with Marko on Alonso's track performance.

Like Alonso said, if they were not ******** for his comments as Marko insists why is he making such a big deal about it. Alonso is not alone on thinking that Newey cars are very good or that Hamilton may be his biggest opponent. Alonso never said Vettel was a bad driver or that he does not deserve his championships.

[Konsta]

The bast majority of team principals disagree with Marko on Alonso's track performance.

Like Alonso said, if they were not ******** for his comments as Marko insists why is he making such a big deal about it. Alonso is not alone on thinking that Newey cars are very good or that Hamilton may be his biggest opponent. Alonso never said Vettel was a bad driver or that he does not deserve his championships.

Technically you are correct but FA's claim that they were racing against Newey was at best disrespectful. Had he been a mentally stronger person, he had left a stupidity like that unsaid.

[SpaMaster]

I did not expect Alonso and Ferrari to comment on this. Didn't think they would place that much importance. But they have. But Alonso goes on to say - Marko's statements don't mean anything, does not have any point, etc. They have taken it up.

[fabr68]

Technically you are correct but FA's claim that they were racing against Newey was at best disrespectful. Had he been a mentally stronger person, he had left a stupidity like that unsaid.

Alonso did not say that. Alonso said

At the moment I am or, or we are not, fighting against Sebastian only, we are fighting against Newey, let’s say, because they are first and second in the last four* races

He said that in October of last year. Four months later Marko is bringing it up to say it did not bother them or so they claim.

If that is diarespectful, they need to grow a thicker skin.

Edited by fabr68, 17 January 2013 - 15:18.

[PoleMan]

Alonso speaks.



Edit: and also he rubbishes the assertion about undervaluing Vettel:


But nevertheless:


While IMHO all of what he says about Lewis and Seb, respectively, seems reasonable to me if looked at in isolation, I have problems understanding the comments when taken together: Lewis is the strongest driver, but he did not say Seb is not the strongest driver? What? So I guess I will apply what Fernando said about Marko. Fernando's driver comments are "a bit mixed up, without any real control. So I do not think we should pay too much attention to those statements"

I think it's more of a language issue. Fernando's English has improved a lot, but in the pressers and interviews, we hear how he leaves out key words.

If I had to interpret what he's trying to say, it's that: 'Others can think that Sebastian is the strongest driver...and in some races he has been, but over the last 3 years he's had the strongest car, specially in 2011. IN MY OPINION, Lewis is the strongest opponent because of what I've seen him do in cars that were not the best, as well as cars that were fast.'

That said, it's obvious to me that he rates Lewis higher than Vettel, which Vettel and his fans could rightly view as a put down.

[EvanRainer]

lol, I don't believe for a second that he rates Hamilton that high. It's painfully obvious why he says everything he says and painfully embarrassing as well. All he is doing is showing how insecure he is about it.

Edited by EvanRainer, 17 January 2013 - 17:50.

[aditya-now]

Wake up people.

Alonso is doing just what Marko said : being political! The season hasn't even started and he's already out there designing his main "opposition" to upset (at least he tries) the front runners. Everyone knows Hamilton talent, but when you've lost the title to Vettel (who came back from your 42points lead) you must show humility and be carefull with your words! Anyway, Alonso seems to consider himself as a living God but he is clever enough to remember that we (F1 watchers) will never forget that year where a certain rookie showed him up! THIS is why Alonso will always praise Hamilton above the rest...

It's a subtil mind game and a dig at Vettel...

Of course it is a subtle mind game.

What is also apparent is that Dr.Marko does the talking for Seb and Adrian Newey does the designing, while Fernando is busy with addressing the three of them: Dr.Marko, Adrian Newey and Sebastian Vettel.

Quite interesting that Stefano Domenicalli as well as no one else at Ferrari chose to play Dr.Marko's game, leaving it up to Fernando.

[Watkins74]

lol, I don't believe for a second that he rates Hamilton that high. It's painfully obvious why he says everything he says and painfully embarrassing as well. All he is doing is showing how insecure he is about it.

Bs. Only a moron wouldn't rate Hamilton that high.

[H2H]

Showing confidence and strength is rather typical in F1 after you have been beaten. Alonso has been beaten, beaten again and then beaten another time to the title by another driver so it is quite natural for a character like his to respond in this environment like that. Domenicali also talks with a certain confidence. On the other side Newey plays down the development of the RB9 and lets Marko talk and Vettel stay silent.

[Skinnyguy]

lol, I don't believe for a second that he rates Hamilton that high.

His words won´t reflect any honest objective rating based on actual observation, he´ll say whatever to fit what he wants to sell at any particular moment. Alonso´s opinion will change to adapt to his convenience like a cheap politician.

Right now it is something like: Vettel´s beating me and I need to look the best > Lewis has been the only top teammate I had, and he matched me as a teammate > I must say he´s better than the other top guys to look better than Vettel.

But let´s go back to early 2008, when his worst enemy was not the young german, but Lewis Hamilton and McLaren. When he was asked which was the main favourite for the new season, he was spamming this all the time: Räikkönen being the main man over Hamilton.

http://www.eleconomi...-favorito-.html

Back then it was: I´m angry with Lewis and McLaren > I´ll say Räikkönen´s the better of the other two top guys to upset Lewis > That might make me look bad too as he matched me > I´ll add from time to time suggestions about McLaren screwing me and nursing him.

Now let´s move forward to 2011. 2010 is over, Hamilton and Vettel have shown they´re the main guys alongside Alonso. Let´s ask Fernando about 2011:
http://formula1.lne....schumacher.html

Now let´s get into Alonso´s mind: Vettel and Lewis have showed they´re top, and will be my rivals > I need to downplay them to look the best between them > I´ll praise Schumacher over them.

Frankly, the man will say whatever to try and create whatever perception on us that fits him. Thankfully we have memory to spot these zig-zags. Expect him not to rate Lewis that high when it´s him his main rival again.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 17 January 2013 - 18:26.

[aditya-now]

I did not expect Alonso and Ferrari to comment on this. Didn't think they would place that much importance. But they have. But Alonso goes on to say - Marko's statements don't mean anything, does not have any point, etc. They have taken it up.

Yep, they have taken the bait. Dr.Marko must be rubbing his hands...

[Winter98]

Of course it is a subtle mind game.

What is also apparent is that Dr.Marko does the talking for Seb

I think Vettel's record does all the talking for him. What else could he add?

Quite interesting that Stefano Domenicalli as well as no one else at Ferrari chose to play Dr.Marko's game, leaving it up to Fernando.

Agreed. If this is a strategic move by Ferrari, I think it is a poor one in terms of keeping Alonso focused on racing.

Edited by Winter98, 17 January 2013 - 18:27.

[Kingshark]

Quite interesting that Stefano Domenicalli as well as no one else at Ferrari chose to play Dr.Marko's game, leaving it up to Fernando.

http://www.f1fanatic...hip-domenicali/

[H2H]

His words won´t reflect any honest objective rating based on actual observation, he´ll say whatever to fit what he wants to sell at any particular moment. Alonso´s opinion will change to adapt to his convenience like a cheap politician.

Right now it is something like: Vettel´s beating me and I need to look the best > Lewis has been the only top teammate I had, and he matched me as a teammate > I must say he´s better than the other top guys to look better than Vettel.

But let´s go back to early 2008, when his worst enemy was not the young german, but Lewis Hamilton and McLaren. When he was asked which was the main favourite for the new season, he was spamming this all the time: Räikkönen being the main man over Hamilton.

http://www.eleconomi...-favorito-.html

Back then it was: I´m angry with Lewis and McLaren > I´ll say Räikkönen´s the better of the other two top guys to upset Lewis > That might make me look bad too as he matched me > I´ll add from time to time suggestions about McLaren screwing me and nursing him.

Now let´s move forward to 2011. 2010 is over, Hamilton and Vettel have shown they´re the main guys alongside Alonso. Let´s ask Fernando about 2011:
http://formula1.lne....schumacher.html

Now let´s get into Alonso´s mind: Vettel and Lewis have showed they´re top, and will be my rivals > I need to downplay them to look the best between them > I´ll praise Schumacher over them.

Frankly, the man will say whatever to try and create whatever perception on us that fits him. Thankfully we have memory to spot these zig-zags. Expect him not to rate Lewis that high when it´s him his main rival again.

I think you summed it up pretty well. In short his strongest competitor is the one which he gives the least credit among the elite group. As Marko said, Alonso is (too) political...

[Skinnyguy]

I think you summed it up pretty well. In short his strongest competitor is the one which he gives the least credit among the elite group.

That´s exactly what he does. And that´s why I found this comment really funny:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105160
"The strongest driver? It is a personal opinion, not political, not to make people think something... It is Hamilton - and it will still be Hamilton next year"

Usually when you´re giving an honest opinion and not a political one, you don´t feel the urge to point out right before you air your view that you´re NOT being political.

[leojagpreet]

Dr Helmut Marko - has he done PhD or is he doctor by trade? lol

[fabr68]

That´s exactly what he does. And that´s why I found this comment really funny:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105160
"The strongest driver? It is a personal opinion, not political, not to make people think something... It is Hamilton - and it will still be Hamilton next year"

Usually when you´re giving an honest opinion and not a political one, you don´t feel the urge to point out right before you air your view that you´re NOT being political.

Yes because Alonso is the only person in the world who says Hamilton is the strongest driver.

I think Alonso has read these forums

[KnucklesAgain]

Dr Helmut Marko - has he done PhD or is he doctor by trade? lol

He got his law degree in 1967, in parallel to or slightly before his racing career. I don't particularly like Marko, but anyone lol'ing about him should look up his CV on Wikipedia, that's no CV to lol at.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 January 2013 - 23:11.

[KnucklesAgain]

I think it's more of a language issue. Fernando's English has improved a lot, but in the pressers and interviews, we hear how he leaves out key words.

If I had to interpret what he's trying to say, it's that: 'Others can think that Sebastian is the strongest driver...and in some races he has been, but over the last 3 years he's had the strongest car, specially in 2011. IN MY OPINION, Lewis is the strongest opponent because of what I've seen him do in cars that were not the best, as well as cars that were fast.'

That said, it's obvious to me that he rates Lewis higher than Vettel, which Vettel and his fans could rightly view as a put down.

Absolutely. It's quite obvious that he always tended to translate from his native Spanish to English (more so in the past than nowadays, but still), instead of using native English idioms, which of course distorts meaning and shown intent. I always found it obvious, and more so now after having studied Spanish myself for a while. The fact that this was always ignored when interpreting his words used to make me very angry (in fact I once canceled an Autosport subscription over this once), but I guess I've got used to it not only to the poit of not caring much, but not even noticing anymore. Thanks for pointing it out.

[KnucklesAgain]

His words won´t reflect any honest objective rating based on actual observation, he´ll say whatever to fit what he wants to sell at any particular moment. Alonso´s opinion will change to adapt to his convenience like a cheap politician.

Right now it is something like: Vettel´s beating me and I need to look the best > Lewis has been the only top teammate I had, and he matched me as a teammate > I must say he´s better than the other top guys to look better than Vettel.

But let´s go back to early 2008, when his worst enemy was not the young german, but Lewis Hamilton and McLaren. When he was asked which was the main favourite for the new season, he was spamming this all the time: Räikkönen being the main man over Hamilton.

http://www.eleconomi...-favorito-.html

Back then it was: I´m angry with Lewis and McLaren > I´ll say Räikkönen´s the better of the other two top guys to upset Lewis > That might make me look bad too as he matched me > I´ll add from time to time suggestions about McLaren screwing me and nursing him.

Now let´s move forward to 2011. 2010 is over, Hamilton and Vettel have shown they´re the main guys alongside Alonso. Let´s ask Fernando about 2011:
http://formula1.lne....schumacher.html

Now let´s get into Alonso´s mind: Vettel and Lewis have showed they´re top, and will be my rivals > I need to downplay them to look the best between them > I´ll praise Schumacher over them.

Frankly, the man will say whatever to try and create whatever perception on us that fits him. Thankfully we have memory to spot these zig-zags. Expect him not to rate Lewis that high when it´s him his main rival again.

I agree with that in general, I just don't like how you write as if this was somehow a special trait of Alonso only. However, nobody is free of this, it's part of the basic make-up of the human mind. Whether one picks up on it has more to do with the listener's own beliefs and opinions than those of the speaker.

OT in a way, but maybe worth to note that these other comments by Alonso sound (to me) very down-to-earth, not political, and not at all arrogant. Nevertheless they won't change the opinions of people who don't like him, nor even figure in the mental model they built of Alonso.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 January 2013 - 21:25.

[Fontainebleau]

His words won´t reflect any honest objective rating based on actual observation, he´ll say whatever to fit what he wants to sell at any particular moment. Alonso´s opinion will change to adapt to his convenience like a cheap politician.

That sounds amazingly similar to what happens to F1 internet forumers First you criticise Alonso for signalling the defending WDC as the favourite (Raikkonen in 2008), then you criticise him for not signalling the current defending WDC as the favourite, and finally you criticise him for saying that, lacking other information, one has to give the label of "most dangerous" among the WDCs to the man with seven titles. Exactly what can Alonso say not to trigger your displeasure?

Jokes aside, your post is full of comments that, unless you personally know Alonso and have some basis for making such statements, is based on nothing but your own dislike for the guy. At least, start your assertions with an "I think" or "in my opinion" instead of stating them as proven facts!

Edited by Fontainebleau, 17 January 2013 - 21:10.

[Skinnyguy]

I agree with that in general, I just don't like how you write as if this was somehow a special trait of Alonso only. However, nobody is free of this, it's part of the basic make-up of the human mind. Whether one picks up on it has more to do with the listener's own beliefs and opinions than those of the speaker.

I do agree that it´s not a special treat for Alonso, there´s more people like that. i.e. Hamilton is similar to Alonso in this aspect. But don´t try to sell everyone´s like that.

Vettel hasn´t ever said a word about that kind of "I´m better driver than X", "X is better driver than Y". He just doesn´t get involved in that stuff.
Räikkönen directly won´t answer to that kind of questions either.

Getting involved in that stuff is not like having a navel. Some do like to air and spread his propaganda, some do not. I never intended to single out Alonso as the only one doing this, not at all. But he´s certainly in the group of those who do this, and there´s certainly a group of people not bothering with this stuff.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 17 January 2013 - 21:31.

[Skinnyguy]

That sounds amazingly similar to what happens to F1 internet forumers First you criticise Alonso for signalling the defending WDC as the favourite (Raikkonen in 2008), then you criticise him for not signalling the current defending WDC as the favourite, and finally you criticise him for saying that, lacking other information, one has to give the label of "most dangerous" among the WDCs to the man with seven titles. Exactly what can Alonso say not to trigger your displeasure?;)

I´m not even judging if the comments are right or wrong, point went well over your head!! The topic is how he will change his view on his fellows -or any topic actually- depending on what idea he wants to spread at any particular moment. I didn´t even judge the comments individually, but I can do right now if you want to hear my view:

-His view on 2008 was wrong. Hamilton was as good as Räikkönen and was in a team just as good at that time.
-His view on 2011 was wrong. Schumacher wasn´t in the top drivers group and wasn´t in a top team either.
-His view in 2013 is wrong. Vettel is as much of a threat as Hamilton.

Surely you´ll agree with these things, especially now we have the advantage of hindsight on some of that. And how can he get it that wrong despite being part of the sport? He doesn´t get it wrong, he just says whatever he wants others to think. Surely he knew in 2008 Hamilton was as good as Kimi, surely he knew in 2011 Schumacher was not up to the level of Lewis and Seb, surely he knows by now that Vettel is more of a threat for 2013 than Vettel.

What can he do to not trigger my displeasure? Stop throwing propaganda to match whatever he wants to spread at a particular moment. Just do what he does best: get in that car and drive it. Or if he is the kind that needs to air his view on everything like a mere pundit or forumer, doing it honestly and sensibly would just serve.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 17 January 2013 - 21:50.

[fabr68]

I´m not even judging if the comments are right or wrong, point went well over your head!! The topic is how he will change his view on his fellows -or any topic actually- depending on what idea he wants to spread at any particular moment. I didn´t even judge the comments individually, but I can do right now if you want to hear my view:

-His view on 2008 was wrong. Hamilton was as good as Räikkönen and was in a team just as good at that time.
-His view on 2011 was wrong. Schumacher wasn´t in the top drivers group and wasn´t in a top team either.
-His view in 2013 is wrong. Vettel is as much of a threat as Hamilton.

What can he do to not trigger my displeasure? Stop throwing propaganda to match whatever he wants to spread at a particular moment. Just do what he does best: get in that car and drive it. Or if he is the kind that needs to air his view on everything like a mere pundit or forumer, doing it honestly and sensibly would just serve.

So you think Hamilton in no shape way or form has a chance to become 2013 WDC even before testing starts?

[KnucklesAgain]

I do agree that it´s not a special treat for Alonso, there´s more people like that. i.e. Hamilton is similar to Alonso in this aspect. But don´t try to sell everyone´s like that.

Vettel hasn´t ever said a word about that kind of "I´m better driver than X", "X is better driver than Y". He just doesn´t get involved in that stuff.
Räikkönen directly won´t answer to that kind of questions either.

Getting involved in that stuff is not like having a navel. Some do like to air and spread his propaganda, some do not. I never intended to single out Alonso as the only one doing this, not at all. But he´s certainly in the group of those who do this, and there´s certainly a group of people not bothering with this stuff.

Please, when things don't go Vettel's way, he believes the FIA sent the SC out on purpose to rob him of his WDC, and he's already sulking on German TV all the time. We'll see his mood after wasting 5 years in second-tier cars..

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 January 2013 - 21:53.

[Skinnyguy]

So you think Hamilton in no shape way or form has a chance to become 2013 WDC even before testing starts?

Where on Earth did I say that??? Lewis is a top class driver. He´s on a team with a chance to get better. He´s got a chance.

[Skinnyguy]

Please, when things don't go Vettel's way, he believes the FIA sent the SC out on purpose to rob him of his WDC, and he's already sulking on German TV all the time. We'll see his mood after wasting 5 years in second-tier cars..

Vettel is much of an asshat as anyone in the heat of the moment: gesturing after an incident, giving the finger, throwing gloves, talking too much in interviews right after the action...

But Vettel won´t keep the crap comming in a sofa at 60 BPM surrounded by journos.