169 replies to this topic

[LordAston]

This is a total pipe dream and may not happen but it has been rattling around in my head for some time. Itis a book on sports cars that failed to race or did not compete in many if any races. The book is under the working title 'Stuck in the Pits' the cars I have so far decided are Piper from Le Mans 69, Alfa Group C car and the Spice-Tiga Lamborghini. Any new or interesting ideas welcomed. I do not promise anything, so this may or may not happen.

Thanks

Rich

[312f1]

Don't the XJ13 and the Alfa Procar meet the requirements?

Edited by 312f1, 17 May 2013 - 19:33.

[RemcoB]

1968 Marcos XP perhaps?

[ensign14]

There are a good few...just OTTOMH for starters:

Canary Eagle
Norma W12
Olmas
Isolia
URD's Group C (the C83?)
Fortina-Lancia
Gipfast
Marcos Mantis
GKW
ROC-Chevron
Strandell
Nykjaer
MiG
BRM and Allard from the 1990s
Cheek
Mirage M12

[LittleChris]

There are a good few...just OTTOMH for starters:

Canary Eagle
Norma W12
Olmas
Isolia
URD's Group C (the C83?)
Fortina-Lancia
Gipfast
Marcos Mantis
GKW
ROC-Chevron
Strandell
Nykjaer
MiG
BRM and Allard from the 1990s
Cheek
Mirage M12

**** me, that's impressive !! Not heard of most of them

[arttidesco]

Ardex S80 from 1981 is another

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by LittleChris
.....that's impressive! Not heard of most of them

I'll second the motion, and I'll bet a show of hands would be on our side!

I think I heard of the Mirage, it would be interesting to hear the stories of all of them.

[kayemod]

If Can Am is included, there are loads. Almost everything with a Ford engine in it for a start.

[Duc-Man]

Don't the XJ13 and the Alfa Procar meet the requirements?

Steinmetz Jumbo.
Not a sports car as such but a similar story as for the Alfa Procar. Jumbo was build for a proposed race series that never happened. Steinmetz attented a couple of races of the interserie in '74 with the car. Unfortunally there are only a few pictures floating around on the web.

[kayemod]

Steinmetz Jumbo.

With those overhangs, that one would be a right bugger to park.

[ensign14]

I'll second the motion, and I'll bet a show of hands would be on our side!

I think I heard of the Mirage, it would be interesting to hear the stories of all of them.

A lot of them are C2 projects. It seems to me that Group C2 in the eighties was the spiritual successor of the Connew/Token/Amon line in the seventies - get the basic kit together and you can build a World Championship entrant. The Olmas (Italian, was Luigi Taverna involved? Qualified at Le Mans but they blew their last engine in practice and scratched), Strandell (Swedish), Nykjaer (Danish), Isolia (pure white, think was based on a Chevron), ROC (had wheel covers that made it look like it was floating, had about 8 slow laps au Mans, returned the next year to fail scrutineering) and Fortina-Lancia fell in that category. Also the Ceekar, Bardon, Harrier and Lotec, but they had a bit more success.

A couple tried Group C. URD had a BMW-entered C2 car, think they got a Porsche to enter C1, but it wrote itself off on its first lap. Gipfast didn't last much longer and was deposited in a skip. The GKW had a Porsche engine and Norma the Guy Negre W12 and were entered for races but never got as far as being fired up. The Cheek was Scandinavian and presented in Autosport but I don't think ever raced. Canary Eagle was a Corvette (? - certainly some big lump of American metal) that was hopeless and about 2 minutes short of Le Mans qualifying times. The MiG I think had some Fulvio Ballabio involvement which gives you some idea of how successful that was. Made the Canary Eagle look like a 917.

Couple of others I've remembered. The Lebacq, which was a six-wheeler, from the late seventies, and Robin Smith's Simpson, which cremated itself at the SuperPrix (only its second race, I think).

[arttidesco]

Just remembered Le Mans '81 had several interesting projects which never got far beyond the Ardex, the brand new Porsche Turbo powered Cook Woods Lola T600 entered for Brian Redman and Bobby Rahal did a handful of slow laps failed to qualify and was apparently never seen again.

Also there was the glorious rumbling McLaren M12 GT entered for Regout, Elkoubi and Canary, the later of Eagle 700 fame already mentioned, that failed to break 5 mins and failed to qualify behind the Cooke Woods Lola. Despite qualifying for two further races it failed to start any race at all which must point to an interesting story of misadventure.

Finally while I was corresponding with Richard Jenvey about his Lotus Esprit Group 5 project he told me that he planned to fit a 1.4 litre Zakspeed turbo to the car but ran out of time before the introduction of Group C and so built up a Group C chassis to take the motor. When the finalised Group C regs were announced Richards chassis no longer met the 1 meter from the center line of the car fuel tank regs and so he abandoned the project. He tells me the never finished Group C chassis is still in his garden.

[Duc-Man]

I just remembered another one that didn't get far: Hans Heyer's group C Mercedes SLC. It's been metioned on TNF before. IIRC it was based on the AMG McLaren M8 turbo that AFAIK never raced as well.
Does that make the car a double fail?

[MCS]

Mmmmmmm.

"Lord Aston" I have to say that your book could take you quite a while to er, complete - assuming of course it covers all qualifying failures.

Shades of Doctor Johnson's Dictionary...

[Duc-Man]

Here is a whole bunch:

Mac's It Special (Story goes it barely made it from the paddock to the pits at it's only appearence)
Honker 2
Chaparral 2H
AVS Shadow Mk.I
All Can-Am Ferraris
Lola T70 Aston Martin
Porsche 909 Bergspyder
Porsche 959/961
Mercedes C292
Peugeot 905 Evo2

Does this count: 1965 Shelby Cobra Daytona 427 Super Coupe?

BTW: how is the McLaren MP4-12 doing in racing?

Edited by Duc-Man, 22 May 2013 - 17:09.

[scags]

I forgot what it was called., but how about the car Mario and Micheal Andretti were supposed to race at Le Mans?

[BRG]

BTW: how is the McLaren MP4-12 doing in racing?

Well enough - some wins in GT racing this year, esp by Sebastian Loeb driving in his new racing team. So definitely not a candidate for this thread!

[Tuboscocca]

BTW: how is the McLaren MP4-12 doing in racing?

Duc-Man

at least at the 24h Nürburgring (last weekend) not too well: engine expired (extremely visible on TV!!) shortly after the start on the parade lap!!!
In fairness: very good in Ratels GT3 championship...

Michael

[ensign14]

I forgot what it was called., but how about the car Mario and Micheal Andretti were supposed to race at Le Mans?

That was the Mirage M12.

Throw in the Astons from Le Mans last year, can't remember their titles, lasted about 3 laps between them...

[fausto]

The Cheek competed in some local races, its designer/builder used to write here, as Doc Knudsen, IIRC...a couple or more from Italy are two stepsisters, the Panther (styled by Bertone, designed by Giorgio Valentini, technically impressive) and the DFV-powered Mystere. Then, years later, the DFV/DFL Raymond (they built the chassis, someone reported, some months ago, when Rovigno Rimondi, mr. Raymond, died that he was completing the car. In 1983 Ettore Bogani, from Florence, had plans to build a turbo BMW straight four powered C2 car. Another project came from Germany, the MH Mennella C2 (1984).

[Sebastian Tombs]

The Strandell did manage to start one race and actually be classified...13th in the Silverstone 1000k 1985. Drivers Martin Schanche (N) and Stanley Dickens (S).

ST

[Graham Clayton]

Can I suggest the 1985 Cheetah G604?

http://www.racingspo...eetah/G604.html

[Duc-Man]

BTW: how is the McLaren MP4-12 doing in racing?

Duc-Man

at least at the 24h Nürburgring (last weekend) not too well: engine expired (extremely visible on TV!!) shortly after the start on the parade lap!!!
In fairness: very good in Ratels GT3 championship...

Michael

There were also some running last year in the 24h and also in the ADAC gt masters that didn't do very well. That's why I asked.
I didn't catch anything from international series because that doesn't really happen in german media.

[proviz]

This is one book I would definitely buy, although the challenge of covering the subject properly seems just about insurmountable. Material would need to be collected all over the world and in many cases it would be virtually impossible to find or to access any survivors from the projects.
IMO whole brands should be included, like Serenissima for example. And where to draw the line in what was significant or interesting enough to justify inclusion. If the aim is to include everything, there is no end to cars that either appeared in races briefly, but remained largely unknown, or never even hit the track. To list just a few: Hoehreich-BMW, Denmacher-Porsche, Apal-Ford, Minelli-Fiat, Narvin-Fiat, Laverda Group C...
But if LordAston or enyone else manages to accomplish this, I'm in line to order it!

[Robin Fairservice]

What about the 1992 Chrysler Patriot sports car intended to win at Le Mans?

See: http://www.allpar.co...el/patriot.html

[arttidesco]

I'm sure there was also mention of a Group 5 Bentley on the pages of Autosport back in the late 70's does anybody else remember that or was it one of Mr Nye's wind ups ?

[alansart]

I guess we can include the Ford 3L (P68).

Despite having decent funding and drivers etc I think it only started 8 races and didn't finish any of them - although it did get a pole and fastest lap on the way.

Looks beautiful though

[Duc-Man]

I guess we can include the Ford 3L (P68).

Despite having decent funding and drivers etc I think it only started 8 races and didn't finish any of them - although it did get a pole and fastest lap on the way.

Looks beautiful though

While we're at it: the Alan Mann Ford P69 counts as well. And that wasn't pretty.

[Tuboscocca]

There were also some running last year in the 24h and also in the ADAC gt masters that didn't do very well. That's why I asked.
I didn't catch anything from international series because that doesn't really happen in german media.

Duc-Man!! Are you living in Germany?? Ratels GT series is shown on RTL-Nitro, and the ADAC GT series on Kabel 1...
So no excuse any more!!

Michael

[Duc-Man]

Duc-Man!! Are you living in Germany?? Ratels GT series is shown on RTL-Nitro, and the ADAC GT series on Kabel 1...
So no excuse any more!!

Michael

Thanks for the hint, I didn't know that about RTL Nitro.

[Tuboscocca]

Thanks for the hint, I didn't know that about RTL Nitro.

Never mind...only on satellite..the rest of the program is

Michael

[arttidesco]

Moving swiftly on from German satellite TV that does not make the cut, how about the ACR Lola 4 starts and 1 win, the cars only finish after a nine year hiatus

Then there was the curious case of the Janspeed TR8 which made a one start in four attempts and DNFed

[Duc-Man]

Moving swiftly on from German satellite TV that does not make the cut, how about the ACR Lola 4 starts and 1 win, the cars only finish after a nine year hiatus

Then there was the curious case of the Janspeed TR8 which made a one start in four attempts and DNFed

I suggest we leave alone this poor TR8. It's IMHO already more than enough punished with its looks.

PS: there is barely any German tv that does make the cut.

[funformula]

The BRUN C91 is another example of unsuccessful sportscars, also the Konrad Lamborghini.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/brun.html

[MCS]

The BRUN C91 is another example of unsuccessful sportscars, also the Konrad Lamborghini.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/brun.html

Never saw it, but was it a new-build, or based on something already familiar...?

[arttidesco]

I suggest we leave alone this poor TR8. It's IMHO already more than enough punished with its looks.

PS: there is barely any German tv that does make the cut.

Love the look of the TR8 though I grant you I was a probably a bit optimistic thinking it was going to be a 935 killer back in the day

As for TV I doubt the German situation is much different to anywhere else on the planet

[antonvrs]

No, I saw the Mac's It Special go down through the corkscrew at Laguna Seca TWICE under it's own power.... Slowly.
TK

Here is a whole bunch:

Mac's It Special (Story goes it barely made it from the paddock to the pits at it's only appearence)
Honker 2
Chaparral 2H
AVS Shadow Mk.I
All Can-Am Ferraris
Lola T70 Aston Martin
Porsche 909 Bergspyder
Porsche 959/961
Mercedes C292
Peugeot 905 Evo2

Does this count: 1965 Shelby Cobra Daytona 427 Super Coupe?

BTW: how is the McLaren MP4-12 doing in racing?

[Sharman]

For those of more vintage years I think the HRG Twin Cam qualifies, I first saw it at the Empire Trophy in 19 umptytump, impressive overlap crackle but little performance. Now looks good in historics but haven't seen it for a while.

[fausto]

The BRUN C91 is another example of unsuccessful sportscars, also the Konrad Lamborghini.
http://www.gurneyflap.com/brun.html

Built from scratch, designed by George Ryton (one of John Barnard assitants during is GTO-Guildford Technical Office Ferrari time). Early plans centred around the use of a stillborn V12 engine called the Neotech, built somewhere between Austria and Switzerland, IIRC

[ensign14]

Early plans centred around the use of a stillborn V12 engine called the Neotech, built somewhere between Austria and Switzerland, IIRC

Liechtenstein?

[Graham Gauld]

There are a good few...just OTTOMH for starters:

Canary Eagle
Norma W12
Olmas
Isolia
URD's Group C (the C83?)
Fortina-Lancia
Gipfast
Mirage M12

Marcos Mantis
GKW
ROC-Chevron
Strandell
Nykjaer
MiG
BRM and Allard from the 1990s
Cheek



Reference the ROC Chevron. This was one of the ROC CHevron B36's that ran two weeks go at Paul Ricard. Good to see them still around


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[ray b]

between the gt-40 and the mark 2
was the ill fated J-car that killed ken
but never raced ?

[arttidesco]

between the gt-40 and the mark 2
was the ill fated J-car that killed ken
but never raced ?

IIRC the Mark IV's had J serial numbers J5 being the car that won and J6 being the car that came 4th in '67, apart from the body work was much else different from J1 in which Ken met his untimely demise ?

[ensign14]

Reference the ROC Chevron. This was one of the ROC CHevron B36's that ran two weeks go at Paul Ricard. Good to see them still around

Is that really the same type as these? Wow. That's one heck of a modification.

[fausto]

Liechtenstein?

Sorry, but I'm not really able to remember, the big area was the Swiss-Austrian one, it was almost 25 years ago, in the meantime I got old(er);) also, it's not easy to recall details about a stillborn engine, never raced, maybe only very little tested, in the back of a Brun 962 chassis, IIRC ;)

[ray b]

IIRC the Mark IV's had J serial numbers J5 being the car that won and J6 being the car that came 4th in '67, apart from the body work was much else different from J1 in which Ken met his untimely demise ?

600 lbs of steel added ''nascar like rollcage''

j-car and mark 4 are very different looking and massing beasts

[Graham Gauld]

Is that really the same type as these? Wow. That's one heck of a modification.

Would you like to look up the Le Mans 24 Hour race for 1977 ?

[fausto]

Does someone remember about Paul Gibson's Vision FME Group C2 car? Autosport published an extensive piece (late 1986, IIRC) that a wind tunnel model picture...FME stands for FrontMidEngined , just like the Le Mans Panoz

[arttidesco]

600 lbs of steel added ''nascar like rollcage''

j-car and mark 4 are very different looking and massing beasts

Thanks Ray

I came across a couple more cars that failed to make the cut while looking into the Proteous built Aston Martin AMR1, five AMR1 chassis were built but AMR1/02 was never completed.

However a prototype AMR2 was being built using an AMR1 tub, AMR1/06, 6.3 Version III Callaway motor and different bodywork designed by Ray Mallock it also was never completed and the tub was apparently turned into a fifth complete AMR1.

Furthermore plans were discussed for Tony Southgate to design a 3.5 litre AMR3 before Proteous was wound up in February 1990.

Wonder what happened to AMR1/02 crash tested perhaps ?

Has anyone any inkling of what AMR2 or AMR 3 might have looked like ?

[fausto]

Thanks Ray

I came across a couple more cars that failed to make the cut while looking into the Proteous built Aston Martin AMR1, five AMR1 chassis were built but AMR1/02 was never completed.

However a prototype AMR2 was being built using an AMR1 tub, AMR1/06, 6.3 Version III Callaway motor and different bodywork designed by Ray Mallock it also was never completed and the tub was apparently turned into a fifth complete AMR1.

Furthermore plans were discussed for Tony Southgate to design a 3.5 litre AMR3 before Proteous was wound up in February 1990.

Wonder what happened to AMR1/02 crash tested perhaps ?

Has anyone any inkling of what AMR2 or AMR 3 might have looked like ?

http://astonmartins.com/car/amr-2/