506 replies to this topic

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RaymondMays
Nobody has mentioned the BRM P230 - if indeed it was a proper BRM.

If that counts then surely so do the Chevron F1 that ran in Aurora, the ground-effects Surtees TS20+ that Gordon Smiley drove, the Fittipaldi that Colin Bennett hacked about for Val Musetti and (gasp) the dread Dywa!

pete

[dolomite]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg


Yes, the test car didn't feature any airbox in its original shape....BUT AFAIK the car WAS designated T95/30. It was first tested in December 1994 so it would make sense for it to a 1995 car.

You may well be right, I was just going by the sign displayed by the car in my photo, which definitely says T94/30....

[EvilPhil]

Honda never made it, and instead entered F1 as an engine supplier for BAR. Although i am of the belief this had much to do with the death of Harvey P. than anything else.

[John B]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
.
Williams had their 6 wheeler under serious development before FIA pulled the pin on 6 wheelers in 1982.

Wasn't there another version based on the 1982 Williams FW08? I remember seeing pictures of it at a Goodwood hillclimb.

Not an F1 entry per se but this thread made me think of the Ferrari Indycar of the 1980s, also the Lotus that Al Unser Jr was supposed to drive in 1985 (never happened and he wound up almost winning the CART title for another team...) and the Ligier which made a brief appearance in early 1984.

[Ashley Lenton]

In early 69 or late 68 Autosport (I think) ran a few lines about the Tecno-DFVs that Ron Harris was (allegedly) planning to run for Rodriguez ad Reggazoni. Obviously it never happened, but it would have been interesting.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Ashley Lenton
In early 69 or late 68 Autosport (I think) ran a few lines about the Tecno-DFVs that Ron Harris was (allegedly) planning to run for Rodriguez ad Reggazoni. Obviously it never happened, but it would have been interesting.

Given how good the Tecno-Tecnos were perhaps this is a small mercy?

Whatever happened to Ron Harris? Did his..... Scandinavian art movie import business, let's say?..... ever land him in trouble with the Law?

pete

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by John B
Wasn't there another version based on the 1982 Williams FW08? I remember seeing pictures of it at a Goodwood hillclimb.

Yes, there is a thread with pics of both...

Search using appropriate words, you'll find it easy enough... I think there must be four or five threads now on 6-wheelers and a similar number on the Lotus 88.

[Barry Boor]

Whatever happened to Ron Harris?

He eventually became a very fine full back and had a long career with Chelsea.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Search using appropriate words, you'll find it easy enough... I think there must be four or five threads now on 6-wheelers and a similar number on the Lotus 88.

And of course this.

BTW, I would like to further this thread by working on the pre-war list that Roger Valentine supplied. Since Roger hasn't responded to my invitation (yet), does anyone else care to add information to the cars he mentioned?

As a second question - I'm still in need of pictures (if they are available of course) to spice up the Never raced page on 6th Gear that was created through your combined help. I'd be grateful to anyone sending some pictures to add to the ones I already have. As soon as I have sufficient pictures I will publish them all in one single stroke.

[dmj]

Pedro mentioned Ginetta BRM earlier in this thread. Is it Ginetta G20, as reffered to in a recent interview with Ivor Walklett I read? It seems to be designation of a stillborn Ginetta F1 project, if I understood him correctly. I did a search and it seems to me that G20 was never mentioned anywhere in TNF. Is it so obscure? Is it Toutou 2?

[fines]

Yes, the G20 is the abandoned F1 project. Don't know much more!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by fines
Yes, the G20 is the abandoned F1 project. Don't know much more!

Neither do I

I remember hearing years ago that Chris Meek was intended to be the driver for it, but for one reason or another (financial?) the project fell apart. I know nothing more. I thought Chris was more a sports car man than a single-seater driver... but those sort of moves were more common 30+ years ago!

Seems that there were a range of single seaters - the old G8/9 F2/3 cars from the early sixties, then G17 (F4), G18 (FFord), G19 (abandoned F3, although I've seen talk of a Tasman BRM powered version which was presumably an interim step to the F1) and G20.

The G20 designation was reused on a typical Ginetta roadster much later.

pete

[Milan Fistonic]

From 'Ginetta - The Illustrated History' by John Rose.

With these two cars [G17 & G18] in production, the Walkletts set to work on the next cars on their programme; a Formula Three single-seater, the G19, and even a prestigious Formula One car, the G20. The latter had for some time been the brother's ambition. Their original plan was to build this during the winter months of 1968-69, using a BRM 3-litre V12 engine.

Unfortunately, pressure of work obliged them to postpone this long-cherished ambitious Formula One project for a further twelve months; and ultimately a combination of adverse factors compelled them to abandon the idea altogether. Their dream did not materialise.

On reflection, however, one feels that it was probably a sensible decision, because BRM began to have serious difficulties with their own cars and enines, and, of course, the problems associated with qualifying a Formula One car multiplied with the years.

Sadly, alas, for similar reasons the Formula Three G19 was also abandoned. One car did approach completion and this was again a continuation of the G17/18 theme, but using a stronger chassis and a modified body to allow a BRM V8 2-litre power unit to be squeezed in.

[Vitesse2]

Mattijs: can we add the Pegaso?

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=51829

[Racer.Demon]

I just did ;)

Thanks to "Uechtel" I also added several more cars and a first round of pictures. The updated page can be found here.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I just did ;)

Thanks to "Uechtel" I also added several more cars and a first round of pictures. The updated page can be found here.

re: Il Barone Rampante - they must be one of the most meteoric "rise and falls" ever in racing. They came out of pretty much nowhere to be the class of the F3000 field (helped significantly by the fact that for a couple of years some of the top teams were running on jungle juice fuels and Agip's was junglier than most!).

I'm not sure if they ever got as far as designing an F1 car - they were busier planning to merge with anyone and everyone. For a while in '91 it looked like they'd become "Benetton Junior" - it got as far as Flav explicitly denying it! Presumably they would've had the same kind of relationship with Benetton that Ligier later had

Remember that this was a fairly sticky time for Benetton. The Ford works relationship wasn't too solid, Walkinshaw and Briatore were both on the managerial side at Benetton and at the time there was a degree of tension between various designers in the team - wasn't this the era of the Kimball/Barnard crisis too? There was also talk of V8s, V12s and a veritable glut of different Ford engines - at the time, a Benetton/IBR merger with the Cosworth-badged V8s going to IBR and Jaguar-badged V12s going to Benetton seemed entirely possible, if only to cure the strife!

There was a brief spell when it looked like IBR might do their own car, then the IBR guys (possibly with Cesare Fiorio, who I ISTR ended up at Ferrari for a while) seemed to start looking at taking their sponsorship, management and very special Agip fuel into Tyrrell - but Uncle Ken wasn't ready to sell out then. (I think heady sums like £5m were mentioned - was it really only ten years ago that that sounded like a lot of money).

Can anyone remember all the threads of this tangle? (chuck in Tom W's technical involvement with Fondmetal's car, just to spice it up ;)

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
I just did ;)

Thanks to "Uechtel" I also added several more cars and a first round of pictures. The updated page can be found here.

Couple more for the list which have been mentioned on this thread - the VM from Chimay 1954 and the Dywa from Monza Aurora race 1980. Anyone got any pics of either car? Or perhaps someone would rather raise the Titanic, which may be easier.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
Couple more for the list which have been mentioned on this thread - the VM from Chimay 1954 and the Dywa from Monza Aurora race 1980. Anyone got any pics of either car? Or perhaps someone would rather raise the Titanic, which may be easier.

There are several pictures of the Dywa in both its F1 and F3000 guises knocking around - I think 8W has both of them already.

pete

[fines]

Originally posted by John B



Wasn't there another version based on the 1982 Williams FW08? I remember seeing pictures of it at a Goodwood hillclimb.

I am glad somebody posted a picture of the FW07D. Nowadays everyone refers to the FW08B when Williams 6-wheelers are being discussed, so that I began to question my memory. This is the earlier car, based on the chassis 'FW07-16' iirc, and tested late in 1981. The chassis also ran in FW07C guise, and scored a few GP results as well.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon


There are several pictures of the Dywa in both its F1 and F3000 guises knocking around - I think 8W has both of them already.

pete

Certainly in what looks to be its F3000 incarnation, but I cannot see the version with which poor Ghinzani had to struggle. Nor anywhere on the Internet.

(BTW, from where did the name come? Both W and Y seem to be unusual letters for an Italian name.)

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
Certainly in what looks to be its F3000 incarnation, but I cannot see the version with which poor Ghinzani had to struggle. Nor anywhere on the Internet.

(BTW, from where did the name come? Both W and Y seem to be unusual letters for an Italian name.)

A few from 8w.forix.com:





pete

[roger_valentine]

The inclusion of 'mulettas' like the McLaren MP4/1D and MP4/4B opens the door for dozens of 'next year's engine; this year's chassis' hybrids. Two which immediately spring to mind are:


Matra MS11/12 (1970) :
MS12 engine (destined for MS120), fitted in MS11 chassis, exhibited at the Paris Motor Show - 1970.

Williams FW12 (B?) Renault (1988) :
Tested by Patrase at Paul Ricard in October 1988.


I haven't forgotten about the pre-war cars. I was rather hoping for some comments/corrections/additions to my list before proceeding further. In the meantime I've been trying to take things back even further. Pre-1906, that is. I'm rather out of my depth here (as, I suspect, are most of us), but this means:

1894 Paris-Rouen. More DNQs than Moda and Life could manage between them! I know so little about this event that I'm about to start another thread, just in case any of the experts on the period aren't reading this one.

1895-1903 Paris-anywhere else. I've never heard of most of the cars which ran, let alone those which didn't. Can anyone help with these?

1900-1905 Gordon Bennett. Here goes:

(First draft - more of a request for comment again, rather than a definitive list. Most info from Montague).




1900 Nesselsdorf (Austria) : Early reports of a 'large racing car' from the forerunners of the Tatra company.

1900 Daimler (GB) : An unfinished chassis was exhibited at the National Exhibition in November. An 'unspecified member' of the ACGBI was reported to have placed an order.

1900 Peugeot 100 hp (F) : car with 4 (or 8?) cylinders was commissioned by Lamaitre.

1900 Canstatt-Daimler 24hp (Germany) : 5 litre car for Jellinek.

1900 Benz 15hp (Germany) : Almost a starter. Eugen Benz arrived at start, but declined to participate due to insufficient preparation time.

1900 Snoeck-Bolide (Belgium) : Jenatzy said that the car he started in the race was not the one he intended to run.

1900 Mors (F) : Started (and finished) unofficially.

1901 Benz 50hp:

1901 Snoeck-Bolide (Belgium)

1901 Darracq

1901 Peugeot

1901 Panhard

1901 Mors

1901 FN

1901 Napier 50hp (GB) : Started in Paris-Bordeaux instead.

1901 Wolesely (GB) : A drawing appeared in 1901 catalogue.

1901 MMC (GB) : Motor Manufacturing Company of Coventry built a Panhard-like car for Henry Farman for 1901 Gordon Bennett race. Withdrawn due to lack of testing.

1901 Canello-Dunkopp (Germany) :

1901 Mercedes (Germany) :

1902 Auto-Mixte (Belgium):

1902 Wolseley 45hp (GB):

1903 Harkness (US): completed in time for 2nd of two Long Island tests, but did not arrive due to split water tank.

1903 Mathesson (US) : 4 cyl 8"x10"

1903 Peerless (US): Although a Peerless did compete, Lord Montague refers to two cars at the second Long Island test - a 'smaller' and 'larger' model.

1903 Dennis (GB) : The Guildford firm listed a 'Gordon Bennett type' in their 1903 catalogue.

1903 Wolesely 30hp (GB) : improved version of 1902 car - not allowed to compete in qualifying trials due to late entry.

1903 Star (GB) : dnq

1904 Renault (F): ?

1904 Spyker (Holland) : 4wd

1904 Benz (Germany) : One car for Madame du Gast

1904 Durkopp (Germany) :

1904 Protos (Germany) :

1904 De Dietrich (Germany) : one car for Etorre Bugatti

1904 Metallurgique (Belgium) : one of 5 Belgian firms reported in October 1903 to be possible contestents.

1904 Harkness 107hp (US) :

1904 Whipples Giant Car (US) : a 'crypto-Peerless' from Baltimore

1904 Buffum (US) : a low-slung flat-8

1904 Cooper-Hewitt (US) :

1904 Moyea (US) :

1904 Smith & Mabley Simplex (US) :

1904 Packard Grey Wolf (US) :

1904 Christie (US) :

1904 Peerless (US) : rebuilt 1903 car - took part in Long Island trials.

1904 Winton (US): 1903 car for Oldfield - took part in Long Island trials.

1904 Weller 80hp (GB): ordered by Ernest Owers in summer 1903. Probably existed only on paper.

1904 Hutton 150hp (GB):

1904 FRENCH DNQS
Serpollet
Panhard 70
Clement-Bayard
de Dietrich 24/28
Hotchkiss HH
Darracq
Gobron-Brillié

1905 Pipe (Belgium): entry withdrawn due to wrangling within the ACF

1905 Rapida (I) :

1905 Itala (I) :

1905 Hermes (Mathis) - Bugatti : 90 hp

1905 Dufaux 26 ltr (SW) - withdrawn due to dispute

1905 Star (GB) - dnq

1905 Wier (GB) - dnq

1905 Siddeley (GB) - dnq

1905 FRENCH DNQS:
Darracq
Renault AK
Panhard 70
Hotchkiss HH
Clement-Bayard
CGV
Automoto

[roger_valentine]

Sorry about all the sulky-smilies - result of copy and paste.

[petefenelon]

Williams FW12 (B?) Renault (1988) :
Tested by Patrase at Paul Ricard in October 1988.

FW12R or FW12B - but an FW12C-Renault was also used for a lot of '89 in a now near-forgotten "last year's car" campaign. FW12 is still the only Williams that doesn't "look like a Williams" to me - it's all soft and curvy!

Here's the R and C.....






Possibly the ugliest unraced Williams muletta was the FW11C-Judd - a real gurner of a car.



While we're on the subject of Williamses - what about the early versions of FW15 that were just not needed because the FW14 was still doing the business? ISTR that they started racing with the FW15C!

pete

[dolomite]

Just read the Maurice Hamilton biog of Ken Tyrrell (Xmas pressie) - in this there is a quote from Roger Hill regarding Maurice Phillippe and the Tyrrell 008: "Maurice more or less brought 008 to us because it was already drawn for another project he had been working on before he arrived.' Anybody know more about this? Where was Phillippe working immediately prior to Tyrrell?

[fines]

Vel's Parnelli???

[Jimmy Piget]

I think I remember an article along with a picture (perhaps in Autosprint) of a F1 Dywa with a 3.0 Chevrolet engine (!) in the early '1970s.
???

Other car never built : a F1 Tucker !
Here are extracted from an article in Automobile Quaterly vol.4 n°1 (1965), page 64 :

"For the 1950 racing season a team of six Grand Prix cars based on the Miller four-wheel drive, rear-engine concept, with fully enclosed aerodynamic coachwork, was to be captained by Ralph Hepburn, a fisty-one-year-old racing veteran. Preston [Tucker] had deplored the automotive industry's attitude towards racing in Europe. Thus Hepburn was to amass the greatest racing talents in the country, and with the Red, White and Blue emblazoned on the sides of their cars, the team was to challenge the world's finest racing vehicles on their home ground. Unfortunately, Hepburn died in the crash of his high-speed Novi while practicing for the Indianapolis race. It was Sunday, May 16, 1948, two weeks before the thirty-second running of the speed classic. His untimely death curtailed our enthusiasm and our racing program was ultimately suspended. "
It's signed by Alex Tremulis, the man responsible for styling the Tucker.

Other information on this ?

[Racer.Demon]

To be of assistence, I've put Roger V's input into an "under construction" web page. I can't vouch for the correctness of any of it, so perhaps Hans or Robert D should take a look. And roll on the other pre-war decades too!

I already have the Trossi Monaco up my sleave!

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by petefenelon
There are several pictures of the Dywa in both its F1 and F3000 guises knocking around - I think 8W has both of them already.

Your posting of the three pictures reminded me of how much more complicated scanning used to be in the old times. Those three pictures were scanned with a small hand scanner, and then probably Mattijs made them "visible" by treating them with care.
I think the time has come now to have a Series 2 version, i.e. the original article in Autosprint from where the pictures where scanned.
I hope you enjoy it ;)


Click here for a "readable" image

[nigel5]

Does anybody know who drives the Dywa F1 in the pics send by Felix and Petefenelon, during a test at Monza ?

I don't think it's Ghinzani.

Thanks.

[Felix Muelas]

Peo Consonni

[nigel5]

Ok

[nigel5]

Okay, thanks a lot Felix
Soory, but I don't read the italian...

[jarama]

Félix,

who's Peo Consonni?

This name dosn't ring a bell to me.

Carles.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by dolomite
Just read the Maurice Hamilton biog of Ken Tyrrell (Xmas pressie) - in this there is a quote from Roger Hill regarding Maurice Phillippe and the Tyrrell 008: "Maurice more or less brought 008 to us because it was already drawn for another project he had been working on before he arrived.' Anybody know more about this? Where was Phillippe working immediately prior to Tyrrell?

When the 008 appeared it was plain to some people that the front suspension was absolutely identical to that of the Formula Ford Getem, whose designer had recently been interviewed by Phillippe....

[Alan Baker]

How about the 1967 Pearce-Martin V-8? In '66 J.A.Pearce put a Ferrari 250GT V-12 in the back of an old Cooper and raced it a few times. For '67 a new space frame chassis was built to take the Martin V-8. Two of these plus the old Cooper were in the team transporter at Silverstone prior to the '67 International Trophy when the whole lot went up in flames. End of project.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Alan Baker
How about the 1967 Pearce-Martin V-8? In '66 J.A.Pearce put a Ferrari 250GT V-12 in the back of an old Cooper and raced it a few times. For '67 a new space frame chassis was built to take the Martin V-8. Two of these plus the old Cooper were in the team transporter at Silverstone prior to the '67 International Trophy when the whole lot went up in flames. End of project.

You might be interested in this thread, Alan.

http://www.atlasf1.c...t=pearce martin

Which I think, in turn, leads to an earlier one.

[fines]

Can we now add the Lola T227... ??????

[ducks to avoid sharp objects aimed at him...]

[dmj]

I might have something about Nesseldorf. I'll check it...

[fines]

Nesselsdorf? You mean that Austrian contraption? Built in 1900 by the "Nesselsdorfer Waggonfabrik" with a horizontal 2-cylinder (120 * 110 mm) of 2,488 cc, revving to 1,300 rpm (although, sadly, I have no HP rating). Alleged top speed 92 kph, weight 970 kg, front tyres 90 mm, rear tyres 120 mm. I don't know if it ever race, but a Nesselsdorf Voiture léger appeared in the 1901 Paris - Berlin race, finishing 11th. Maybe it was the same, trimmed down to 650 kg?


__________________
Michael Ferner

I am not a priori against war - indeed I am of the opinion that every available option
to get rid of the people who pull the strings on George W. Bush should be evaluated.

[nigel5]

Felix, about the Autosprint Dywa’s artcile, in what year this article was published ?

Thanks.

[Vitesse2]

This picture surfaced on the German Yesterday Forum:
after a bit of hunting, it turns out to be the Berta, which I'd never seen a picture of before.



From the information on this site, it appears that the same chassis was raced by Rick Mears in F5000 with a Chevy in the back. There's also some pics of the Berta engine.

http://www.bertamoto...historia70s.htm

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
This picture surfaced on the German Yesterday Forum:
after a bit of hunting, it turns out to be the Berta, which I'd never seen a picture of before.



From the information on this site, it appears that the same chassis was raced by Rick Mears in F5000 with a Chevy in the back. There's also some pics of the Berta engine.

http://www.bertamoto...historia70s.htm

That photo's on FORIX somewhere. Haven't seen the engine before though - looks very DFV doesn't it, but I'd guess at a slightly greater included-valve angle?

Curious looking car though - seems to be a mix of Brabham BT37 and 42 to my eyes!

pete

[uechtel]

http://8w.forix.com/berta.html

[Geza Sury]

I was mad when I saw this picture for the first time It was part of the good old 8W game and I hadn't had the slightest idea what this car could be! It also reminded me of a Brabham, but no way, it's a Berta! For more info, check http://8w.forix.com/berta.html.

[Racer.Demon]

BTW, how long before the MP4-18 can be included here?

[gdecarli]

I recall on Autosprint #4 1985 (end of January) a scoop about a Lancia engine in F.1.
I have no more info; I only remember that Lancia UK was involved in some way.
Of course I have heard nothing about it later...

I also remember an incredible draw on another Autosprint cover, maybe 1993 (or 1992) : it was a F.1 with one front and one back wheels (where usually there are nose and red light) and two side wheels, where usually there are radiators holes. Of course front wings were completely differents, because they should leave enough room for front wheel to steer.

It was quite nice

I recall only that in this incredible proposal Scalabroni was involved, but I should look for my Autosprint copied (at least two) about it.

Do anybody remember it?

Ciao
Guido

(I have Autosprint about both Lancia and "drunk F.1 draw", but they are at my parents home. If you want, I can scan them in few days and post a picture)

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by gdecarli
I recall only that in this incredible proposal Scalabroni was involved, but I should look for my Autosprint copied (at least two) about it.

Another one!

Enrique Scalabroni must be the unenviable record holder for involvements in cars that never raced!

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by gdecarli I also remember an incredible draw on another Autosprint cover, maybe 1993 (or 1992) : it was a F.1 with one front and one back wheels (where usually there are nose and red light) and two side wheels, where usually there are radiators holes. Of course front wings were completely differents, because they should leave enough room for front wheel to steer.
Do anybody remember it?

Guido,

I do.
I will try to find it too, I am sure the posting will be very welcomed, as a good laugh in the middle of July is always good news.
It was, as far as I remember, a completely silly thing...

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Enrique Scalabroni must be the unenviable record holder for involvements in cars that never raced!

Just wait until you see this one, Mattijs!

[gdecarli]

OK!
I'm a F1 fan for exactly 20 years (my first GP on TV was Great Britain 1983), and I think I saw many strange ideas and projects, but surely this one is the very strangest!
From Autosprint 25/1993 - June 1993 - page 36-39:







Do you want an Indycar Version? Here it is!



There is also an interview to Scalabroni, where he explains in few words why such a strange idea.
It is in Italian, so I try to translate the main ideas. I'm sorry for my poor technical English, I think it's better for you my strange phrases rather than the original in Italian!
First of all, according to F.1 rules (in 1993) a F.1 must have at least two steering wheels and it can't be a 4 wheels drive. There isn't any rules about three wheels drive, like this one (Note that at end of 1993 also 4 wheels steering were forbidden but I don't know exactly if such a system now would be allowed anymore).
Such a car has a minor frontal section because there are no big wheels (back tyres were 18" in 1993, IIRC); lateral tyres on this project should have been standard front tyres on standard F.1. For this reason it is 25% more efficent: it use a 10% for a bigger back wing and a 15% for improving speed.
There are two viscous differentials; standard transmission and a cardanic transmission for the back steering wheel. Three wheels drive means more grip. Ideal engine would be a V8 (remember that in 1993 there were V8, V10 and V12 and all of them were quite god in F.1).
Front suspension is quite similar to motorbike or could be derived from aircraft wheels.
If this car could have active suspension (allowed in 1993), in could lift interior wheel in bends.

So, what about it?

Ciao,
Guido