762 replies to this topic

[RCH]

The Fiat 1100 was a sporty little car in its day, also called "the poor man's Alfa Romeo". Its was raced all over Europe in 1955-1965. And remember it made a fine Formula Junior engine...

Hundreds of 'em in the Mille Miglia...

[RCH]

Just remembered a chap named Ralph Walker and an Armstrong-Siddeley 234 Sapphire

One of the big 346 Sapphire was entered in a race I think... don't believe it ran. They reckoned it was as quick as a Mk.7 Jag.

[Lee Nicolle]

World wide maybe, except in the UK, hence my comment. Or are you saying us Poms/Limeys don't recognize electrical problems when we see them?

You are so used to them it becomes an acceptance. Starters that do not start, generators the do not generate and lights that light, or light very well and efi that seldom does.And window winders that seldom do. And that desribes an 'upmarket' Jag !God help the more downmarket makes.

[seldo]

World wide maybe, except in the UK, hence my comment. Or are you saying us Poms/Limeys don't recognize electrical problems when we see them?

It's all relative... You probably think you have great weather too...;)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by quiet Michael

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
There is still a couple racing here in Adelaide, generally the fastest of the Mitsubits fleet, though not the most reliable these days.
And for the Europeans, Triple Webered 4.3 Valiant engines help, a lot. The 4-cylinders have all been recycled long ago.

We might also explain to the Europeans that this engine, along with a 4-speed box, was a popular option when they were new. The standard engine when a 6 was ordered was the 214ci Hemi 6 (3.5-litre) while I'd say most were fitted with 245s.

[garyfrogeye]

It's all relative... You probably think you have great weather too...;)

I believe that Lucas parts didn't fail any more regularly than any other electrical componant manufacturers. It more likely, in my humble opinion that Lucas' bad press has more to do with the fact that they provided equipment and parts to so many vehicles over the years. More parts on more vehicles = more failures.
It's like saying that Americans were historically very poor soldiers, the proof being that so many of them died in the American civil war compared to other nations in the same conflict (a slightly obscure reference , I appreciate).

[Lee Nicolle]

We might also explain to the Europeans that this engine, along with a 4-speed box, was a popular option when they were new. The standard engine when a 6 was ordered was the 214ci Hemi 6 (3.5-litre) while I'd say most were fitted with 245s.

Yes, the 6 cylinder cars outsold the 4 cyl probably 4-1. The 4s all fell to bits, and they were assembled with some extra strength than the Euro ones too.
The 6cyl cars had far stronger towers and pick up points for the suspension. The racks are the weakest point. The 6cyl cars were fitted with both 215 and 245 engines. And the 265 used in the full size cars was a bolt in operation.And occasionally v8s found their way in too!
Not the best handling cars but very good power to weight.

[Lee Nicolle]

I believe that Lucas parts didn't fail any more regularly than any other electrical componant manufacturers. It more likely, in my humble opinion that Lucas' bad press has more to do with the fact that they provided equipment and parts to so many vehicles over the years. More parts on more vehicles = more failures.
It's like saying that Americans were historically very poor soldiers, the proof being that so many of them died in the American civil war compared to other nations in the same conflict (a slightly obscure reference , I appreciate).

The last British car I owned was a SD1 Rover, good car to drive though underpowered BUT by the time I got it back to the workshop the turn signals had expired, following day the windows mostly went on strike. Next week the starter died. We got all that working again for the alternator to die. And it was a 7 year old car wth a 100000km. Never again.And before I bought it I had checked everything knowing their reputation. But when it would start it ran well, though the engine is really a Buick!

[RCH]

The last British car I owned was a SD1 Rover, good car to drive though underpowered BUT by the time I got it back to the workshop the turn signals had expired, following day the windows mostly went on strike. Next week the starter died. We got all that working again for the alternator to die. And it was a 7 year old car wth a 100000km. Never again.And before I bought it I had checked everything knowing their reputation. But when it would start it ran well, though the engine is really a Buick!

Yet all the complaints seem to come from the US and Oz. What do you do with your cars in the colonies? To be fair the early SD1s were apparently a nightmare.

I still shudder at the memory of replacing Bosch starter, Bosch alternator and battery on my Saab V4 within weeks of each other and still finding when the engine was reluctant to start (quite frequent) the battery was drained very quickly. Oh and the Bosch parts were twice the price Lucas would have cost. Then there was the Bosch distributor with its "innovative" self adjusting points.

Back on topic I notice that Standard Vanguards, Humber Hawks and the like were raced in Australia. A Vauxhall Cresta even won something. Weird!

[kayemod]

Yet all the complaints seem to come from the US and Oz. What do you do with your cars in the colonies? To be fair the early SD1s were apparently a nightmare.

In the past, I've had lots of cars with Lucas electrics, and apart from an occasional sticking fuel pump, I never had any real trouble with the electrics on any of them. That doesn't prove very much course, but maybe Lucas products used to prefer a little dampness in the air and saved all their bad behaviour for warmer climes, out in our former colonies.

[Catalina Park]

My every day driven 1966 Morris 1100 is still running most of its original Lucas parts. Except for the starter, distributor and the blinker switch the rest is original.

Mind you I did kill about 4 Lucas starters before settling on a better Japanese one. The distributor is also Japanese.

[GMACKIE]

Many years ago I heard a rather unkind suggestion that the reason for the drinking of warm beer in England, was because all the refrigerators were made by Lucas.

[Lee Nicolle]

Yet all the complaints seem to come from the US and Oz. What do you do with your cars in the colonies? To be fair the early SD1s were apparently a nightmare.

I still shudder at the memory of replacing Bosch starter, Bosch alternator and battery on my Saab V4 within weeks of each other and still finding when the engine was reluctant to start (quite frequent) the battery was drained very quickly. Oh and the Bosch parts were twice the price Lucas would have cost. Then there was the Bosch distributor with its "innovative" self adjusting points.

Back on topic I notice that Standard Vanguards, Humber Hawks and the like were raced in Australia. A Vauxhall Cresta even won something. Weird!

On a Saab the whole wiring harness would have been the trouble.One of the cars I refuse to wn or work on. Seldom have ever had any real troubles with Bosch stuff, but pommy BMC, Fords etc and the like were nightmares, as are Jags Rovers etc of the 80s and 90s.Vauxhall seemed the best though some of that stuff here was Lucas Australia. But still not great. Holdens used both here, they are the Lucas are the items you bin and fit Bosch stuff, Alternators Starters and dissys..
Though Italian stuff seems the worst, how Ferrari ever manage to finish races,,,,!

[BRG]

I never had any problem with Lucas stuff. Never replaced a starter, dynamo/alternator or distributor. The only problem with starters was the one on my Dad's Imp on which the Bendix drive used to stick. But presumably that was made by a washing machine company....

Edited by BRG, 24 May 2011 - 10:49.

[D-Type]

Were the troublesome Lucas components on Australian cars "Made in England" or "Made in Australia"?

I have heard horror stories of Marelli [??] components in Fiats not liking the damp but never had any trouble with the two Fiats I had. I did have a failure of a Bosch alternator on a two year old Hyundai.

Apart from that over the years all the cars I've had have been much of a muchness with none worse than others.

My present wheels, a Polo, is frustrating with things like a headlamp bulb that can only be changed after disconnecting and removing the battery to gain access which screws up all the other systems, and a lambda probe that needed half the loom replaced as there was absolutely no slack in the wiring to allow disconnection.

[Catalina Park]

Were the troublesome Lucas components on Australian cars "Made in England" or "Made in Australia"?

Probably the made in England stuff. I had a couple of Holdens with Australian Lucas stuff and never had any problems.

It is funny that people will often mention the faulty electric fuel pumps when the subject of Lucas quality comes up. I then mention that you can't blame Lucas for a faulty SU fuel pump.

Edited by Catalina Park, 24 May 2011 - 11:19.

[kayemod]

It is funny that people will often mention the faulty electric fuel pumps when the subject of Lucas quality comes up. I then mention that you can't blame Lucas for a faulty SU fuel pump.

Who made the fuel pump on your 1100 ? I had two of those cars many years ago, the pumps occasionally gave trouble, but reaching under the back of the car and giving it a sharp tap usually fixed it. I'd always assumed they were Lucas, but am I blaming the wrong company ?

[Allan Lupton]

Who made the fuel pump on your 1100 ? I had two of those cars many years ago, the pumps occasionally gave trouble, but reaching under the back of the car and giving it a sharp tap usually fixed it. I'd always assumed they were Lucas, but am I blaming the wrong company ?

You are!

[Lee Nicolle]

Who made the fuel pump on your 1100 ? I had two of those cars many years ago, the pumps occasionally gave trouble, but reaching under the back of the car and giving it a sharp tap usually fixed it. I'd always assumed they were Lucas, but am I blaming the wrong company ?

SU brand, but who made them?

[arttidesco]

Despite Skoda's class winning reputation in rallying I am not sure a four door Skoda 130L would have been my vehicle of choice to run against the indecently quick 2 door Vauxhall Nova in Class D of the Uniroyal Production saloon car championship. IIRC some top of the performance range Novas came from the factory with a special carburettor or two in the boot just to get the best performance in production class racing.

However Andy Wolley helped the Skoda marque live up to it's 'Surprising' sobriquet in the 1986 Willhire 24 hours at Snetterton with a car that ran like clockwork, needed very little work doing to it during the pit stops and came in 2nd in class. Can't for the life of me remember who the co-driver was ? John Haugland perhaps ?

[ringers23q]

Not an unsuitable touring car per-se, but can be deemed as unsuitable considering the competition:

1985 ATCC Group A race (AGP Support Race at Adelaide) - I remember seeing a Triumph Dolomite and MKIII Capri trailing around the back.

[RogerFrench]

The thread about the Staverton Sprint reminded me that my father once entered his 1934 Rover 12 in that event. I would have thought it most unsuitable!

[Lee Nicolle]

Not an unsuitable touring car per-se, but can be deemed as unsuitable considering the competition:

1985 ATCC Group A race (AGP Support Race at Adelaide) - I remember seeing a Triumph Dolomite and MKIII Capri trailing around the back.

Which were both common GpC class cars

[Catalina Park]

Who made the fuel pump on your 1100 ? I had two of those cars many years ago, the pumps occasionally gave trouble, but reaching under the back of the car and giving it a sharp tap usually fixed it. I'd always assumed they were Lucas, but am I blaming the wrong company ?

The fuel pump on my Morris 1100 is a mechanical pump and it was made in Australia by Goss. They used a local pump to raise the local content.

SU electric pumps were made by SU. They were not made by Lucas.

[Tim Murray]

However Andy Wolley helped the Skoda marque live up to it's 'Surprising' sobriquet in the 1986 Willhire 24 hours at Snetterton with a car that ran like clockwork, needed very little work doing to it during the pit stops and came in 2nd in class. Can't for the life of me remember who the co-driver was ? John Haugland perhaps ?

Entered by Skoda (GB) Ltd and driven by Bill Taylor/Andrew Woolley/Jeff Williams/Bill Hunt, the 130L ran faultlessly to finish 17th overall, only four places (but many more laps) behind the class-winning Nova.

Edited by Tim Murray, 25 May 2011 - 07:29.

[Allan Lupton]

The fuel pump on my Morris 1100 is a mechanical pump and it was made in Australia by Goss. They used a local pump to raise the local content.

SU electric pumps were made by SU. They were not made by Lucas.

Continuing this digression: here in the UK the pre-BMC Morris used SU fuel pumps/carbs as the company was owned by Nuffield and Austin used AC mechanical fuel pumps and Zenith carbs. BMC Austins such as the 1100, A110 Mk II, Mini, A40 Mk II used SU fuel pumps/carbs but the Freeway still had the Zenith carb but SU pump (according to Newnes Motor Repair).

[Lee Nicolle]

The fuel pump on my Morris 1100 is a mechanical pump and it was made in Australia by Goss. They used a local pump to raise the local content.

SU electric pumps were made by SU. They were not made by Lucas.

My comment was a question. A lot of manufacturers have their stuff manufactured by a specialist manufacturer.Usually to their own design. hence the still valid question.

[Lee Nicolle]

You are!

A very common way to make an SU [and others occasoinally] pump work.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
Continuing this digression: here in the UK the pre-BMC Morris used SU fuel pumps/carbs as the company was owned by Nuffield and Austin used AC mechanical fuel pumps and Zenith carbs. BMC Austins such as the 1100, A110 Mk II, Mini, A40 Mk II used SU fuel pumps/carbs but the Freeway still had the Zenith carb but SU pump (according to Newnes Motor Repair).

There were, as Michael explained, some differences here in Australia...

We had no Austin 1100s, but I would bet that if we did they would have had an SU. The spare parts situation would have helped demand that. I think, but could be wrong, that the Farina A40 had an SU, same as the Minor 1000.

Cars like the A90 Six, A95, A50 and A55 certainly had the Zeniths while the Morris equivalents (not sure about the Marshall...) had SUs, but I do know that all the 3-litre cars here had twin SUs. No Zeniths on A110s, nor Princess 3-litre, nor Wolseley 6/110.

And now that I think about it, I wonder if the local Isis and 6/90 might have been Zenith equipped?

Your Freeway information is correct...

[Catalina Park]

Your Freeway information is correct...

Mostly correct. The later cars had a mechanical fuel pump. Probably a Goss which was a local licence made AC pump.

[arttidesco]

Entered by Skoda (GB) Ltd and driven by Bill Taylor/Andrew Woolley/Jeff Williams/Bill Hunt, the 130L ran faultlessly to finish 17th overall, only four places (but many more laps) behind the class-winning Nova.

Thanks Tim

[Graham Clayton]

Paul Bass entered a 1958 Edsel convertible in the 1959 Daytona 500. He started in position 40 in the 59 car field, and retired on lap 52 of 200 with engine problems. He finished 46th, and won $100 prizemoney for his efforts. This was Bass's only NASCAR race as a driver, and the only time that an Edsel competed in a NASCAR race.

http://www.tvhistory...nvert Green.JPG

This was not the only appearance of an Edsel in a NASCAR race. On the 12th of March, 1961, Los Angeles driver Mike Saathoff entered a '59 Edsel in the NASCAR race at the Marchbanks Speedway at Hanford, California. Sathoff started 31st in the 36 car field, and finished 19th, completing 129 of the 178 laps. Like Paul Bass, this was Saathoff's only entry in a NASCAR race.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Recently I heard that Adrian Hamilton tried to race a Mercedes 600 back in 1970 or 1971! He entered that car, probably in more or less standard specification in a race in Thruxton, with predictable results - tyre problems forced him to retire early (that beast had 3 tons - was it the heaviest racing car ever?) Anyone has a picture?
Also, I would like to know more about cars that looked unsuitable for racing but were raced anyway. Isettas entered for Mille Miglia come to mind first, then Lanfranchi Moskviches that even proved successful because of strange rules... Audi 200 Avant Quattros in rallying, Volvo station wagons in BTCC...
More favorites?

Quoting the very first post and I feel it's okay to nominate another slightly OT car (the Isetta being my MO): the Audi quattro. During the very first proper group C race at Monza, 18th April 1982, entrant Giancarlo Galimberti tried to qualify his group 5 entered quattro, but failed with a time of 2:06.16 - pole won by Lancia in 1:39.91 = 1.26% off. Co-drivers was to be Giulio Rebai and Renato Crosti of which I don't know nothing. What was the nature of this group 5 car? A rally car and crew having a go?

Jesper

[voxadd]

Despite Skoda's class winning reputation in rallying I am not sure a four door Skoda 130L would have been my vehicle of choice to run against the indecently quick 2 door Vauxhall Nova in Class D of the Uniroyal Production saloon car championship. IIRC some top of the performance range Novas came from the factory with a special carburettor or two in the boot just to get the best performance in production class racing.

However Andy Wolley helped the Skoda marque live up to it's 'Surprising' sobriquet in the 1986 Willhire 24 hours at Snetterton with a car that ran like clockwork, needed very little work doing to it during the pit stops and came in 2nd in class. Can't for the life of me remember who the co-driver was ? John Haugland perhaps ?

You don't remember correctly. The Nova with the twin carbs was the Sport model which was homologated for Group A rallying. It was not permitted for prod racing. The Novas ran a single twin choke Pierburg carb.

[ensign14]

In 1972 Guy Verrier entered a Citroen SM at the Le Mans 24 Hours. Perhaps not as daft as you may think, given Ford Capris were finishing in the top ten, but even so it seems a little incongruous.

Needless to say, it didn't qualify. Came rather close though...

[Graham Clayton]

Before he became a famous NASCAR crew chief in the late 1960', 1970's and 1980's, Harry Hyde drove at various short tracks in Kentucky in a 2-door Crosley Hotshot:


http://crosleyautocl.../HydeRacing.jpg

[Graham Clayton]

A 5 litre V8 rear-wheel drive VL Holden Commodore is not the most suitable rallycross car:

[962C]

A 5 litre V8 rear-wheel drive VL Holden Commodore is not the most suitable rallycross car:

If we're talking unlikely rallycross cars, how about a 4wd Cosworth DFV powered Mustang?

Bruno Warnia in the 1993 French Championship

[Graham Clayton]

I mentioned over 5 years ago Paul Bass's Edsel convertible that ran in the inaugral Daytona 500. I have stumbled across a picture of another speedway Edsel.

Indy 500 and super-modified driver Jim Malloy competing at the Colorado National Speedway in 1968 with a 1958 Edsel Pacer:



Source: http://www.edsel.com/pages/custom.htm

[arttidesco]

You don't remember correctly. The Nova with the twin carbs was the Sport model which was homologated for Group A rallying. It was not permitted for prod racing. The Novas ran a single twin choke Pierburg carb.

[Lee Nicolle]

A 5 litre V8 rear-wheel drive VL Holden Commodore is not the most suitable rallycross car:

Not the ideal conditions for the car but on that track if a bit drier it would be quick.
If you consider that unsuitable I won the 1980 South Australian Rallycoss Championship with a HR Holden. That being a pointscore over a season.
I almost updated to a 350 Monaro, that was as quick as the HR as a road car.
They were a regular at Calder, and were very competitive in the day.

[René de Boer]

...
Citroen Ami 6 or 8 or Dyane
...

Indeed, I don't remember having ever seen Ami 6 or 8 in 'genuine' competition events (as opposed to classic car things), but the Dyane occured in a Spanish rally recently, and was really pushed to the limits, as this picture testifies:



And various heavily modified Dyanes were (or perhaps are still) used for the once-popular 2CV race series in Belgium, the annual 24-hour race at Spa-Francorchamps being the highlight of that category. Here an exemple from 2007:



edit: photo added.

Edited by René de Boer, 01 August 2012 - 15:49.

[RTH]

Many years ago I heard a rather unkind suggestion that the reason for the drinking of warm beer in England, was because all the refrigerators were made by Lucas.

there is in fact a cure for the common cold

................If you just gave it a Lucas part number.....then no one could get it .

[Graham Gauld]

Talking about unsuitable saloon racing cars how about Douglas Bertram racing his Daimler at Charterhall in Scotland.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[RCH]

Not that unsuitable! A team of Daimler Conquests ran in the saloon car race at the 1954 Silverstone Int. Trophy meeting. Reg Parnell was 4th. and George Abecassis was 6th. only beaten by the Jaguars. Ken Wharton retired but I believe was faster.

[Lee Nicolle]

Indeed, I don't remember having ever seen Ami 6 or 8 in 'genuine' competition events (as opposed to classic car things), but the Dyane occured in a Spanish rally recently, and was really pushed to the limits, as this picture testifies:



And various heavily modified Dyanes were (or perhaps are still) used for the once-popular 2CV race series in Belgium, the annual 24-hour race at Spa-Francorchamps being the highlight of that category. Here an exemple from 2007:



edit: photo added.

They are not trying yet, the door handles are not scraping!
Only the French could invent a car that leans like that in the shopping centre car park. But the mystery is WHY?

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 02 August 2012 - 09:13.

[D-Type]

They are not trying yet, the door handles are not scraping!
Only the French could invent a car that leans like that in the shopping centre car park. But the mystery is WHY?

If I remember the design brief for the 2 CV went something like
"To be able to carry a basket of eggs across a ploughed field without breaking any;
To be capable of taking a farmer and his wife and a calf to market;
To fit through the same gates as a donkey cart;
To require no more maintenance than said donkey cart."

The fact that the result was a great fun vehicle is purely coincidental.

Edited by D-Type, 02 August 2012 - 09:28.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Yesterday I saw Belgian Dierick Marnix race a Jaguar 420 Saloon in the "1971 over 1300 cc-class" at Copenhagen Classic Grand Prix. Despite being quite a big car, in the mix of 2002s-BDAs-911s and a Datsun 240Z, Marnix actually did a fine job and added some unique music to the biggest class of the weekend.

Was the Jaguar 420 ever used in contemporary racing or rallying? So far I can't even find an FIA homologation number for the car.

Jesper

[RCH]

Was the Jaguar 420 ever used in contemporary racing or rallying? So far I can't even find an FIA homologation number for the car.

Jesper

No, despite Lofty England's comment about "building a 9-litre Jaguar" at Silverstone 1963 after defeat by the 7-litre Ford no Jaguars were used for saloon car racing after the Mark II until the XJ12C in the late '70's. Jaguars presumably decided that they couldn't afford to build a "homologation special" which would have been needed.

[Graham Clayton]

A Canadian Bricklin stock car:



Source: http://bricklin-sv-1...om/photo_7.html