271 replies to this topic

[Menace]

Originally posted by Ian McKean
the Vatanen Pikes Peak URL is;

http://www.softlab.n...gr/~sivann/pub/

and from there choose Course de Pikes Peak (Ari Vatanen).mpeg.

Thanks, its 66MB!?

[Ian McKean]

So it is Menace! But well worth the wait. Incidentally it may be teaching grandmother etc. but the Getright utility is splendid for big downloads like this. I only have a 56K modem and could not contemplate this size of download without Getright.

[AlesiUK]

Originally posted by Pine

Jean Alesi lapping a backmarker. His left fist is in the air, waving angily at the backmarker. His other hand is on the steering wheel, in full opposite lock
It was in the early '90s, and I don't think I will ever forget that.

a thread in RC brought this incident to my mind,but my memory of it is a bit vague,can some one help me and confirm the details of where and when this was?

My memory says Spain 1992 posibly lapping Nakajima?but my memory is about as reliable as that ferrari was

[Pine]

Well, it was a long time ago...
I'm pretty sure it was a right-hand hairpin, and I my vague memory says it was at the Adelaide hairpin in Magny-Coures (sp?) but it could well be in Barcelona, I remember there is a right-hand hairpin there towards the end of the lap.
I really don't remember who was the driver he lapped. 1992 sounds about right.
BTW, I don't know if it was in the race or in qualifying.

[Barry Boor]

"ôòí äéä àçã, àøæ. äéä îñôø ñéôåøéí ìáåáåú."

I couldn't have put it better myself!

[Leo]

Although probably not the best car control ever, I would like to talk about two drivers from the current crop: Juan Pablo Montoya and Giancarlo Fisichella. They differ from each other like day and night (in driving style), but still I think they're the finest at the moment.
Montoya seems to be able to get away with the best slides possible in the traction control era. He doesn't seem to rely on reflexes (as to an extent M.Schumacher does). He just chooses the yaw-angle he finds suitable for the corner.
Giancarlo Fisichella is by far the smothest of all. There have been some inboards shots this year and the way he negotiates turns is simply amazing. One flip of the steering wheel and everything else is done on the throttle (I presume). Compare this to a "wild man" like Felipe Massa and Fisichella's ease is almost boring.
Both styles are quite fast as the drivers prove, but in the end car control is nothing else than the trick to keep the car on the right point of the "traction circle" all through the turn. As a turn involves a braking, steering and acceleration part, there are different ways a driver can travel over the friction circle to get the best result. In the end the quickest guy around a turn has the best car control.

And this "Eddie, is it okay if I turn of the TC?"-pic is specially for AlesiUK ;)

[Leo]

Damn &*$ at crosswinds ;)

Well the url is:
http://www.crosswind...1_wallpaper.jpg

[Pine]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I couldn't have put it better myself!

Yes, Erez and Avri had a very good choice of words there. I love this quote.
(OK, I don't really think you can read it. It's in Hebrew, from an old Israeli TV show.)

[AlesiGOD]

Originally posted by Leo
Damn &*$ at crosswinds ;)

Well the url is:
http://www.crosswind...1_wallpaper.jpg

Darn! doesn't work!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I would support the Kevin Bartlett case too - presuming this K.B. is he? Three years ago I was scaring the life out of my enforced 'navigator' in a Lotus-Cortina plummeting down the reverse slope of Montacute mountain special stage near Adelaide.

Imagine a narrow, patched, winding country road swooping downhill through dense, lush overhanging trees and bushes, with the hillside soaring up to your left and a drop into open paddock on your right. I'm going for gold when there's a Targa-like flicker in the mirror and it's Kev's Gulf-liveried GT40 which had made up a minute on us (on this exceptionally LONG, repeat LONG!!!) stage.

I really want to let him pass but I don't really see a chance to do so, until after a couple of hundred yards with the GT40 grumbling and thundering just under our back bumper we're sweeping round a steeply downhill left-hand curve into a 110-degree right-handed near-hairpin over a little bridge.

I tuck in as tight as I can to the left, brushing my wheels down the verge and wave him by - then almost look down on the 40-inch high roof as the GT40 explodes past us and virtually hand-stands with a flare of brake lights and violet flame flashing from its twin exhaust megaphones, before Kev has it sliding 45-degrees tail-out to the left, nose to the right before the apex of this extremely tight and narrow corner - with a really solid looking wall, bank and trees to the outside.

It's a fantastically dynamic scene, because we're teetering downhill with the wheels just about locking, the roadside bank and bushes are streaming by, the road's a blurr, and there's this dancing GT40...

We're still braking hard on the downslope, so momentarily we're poised above the GT40 - just off its starboard quarter - as it skews into that dished right-hander, and Kev floors the throttle and the pale-blue-and-orange car squats and wags and simply catapults out of sight like an artillery round......

That sight, seared into the memory, 3/4 rear GT40 from slightly above, under full throttle and sliding with just the merest balance of corrective lock, will long be cherished by this Lotus-Cortina crew.

We might be slow, but our hearts are in the right place.

Sorry Doug, I never saw this when you posted it...

Must have been one of those times I was on a trip... only found it now because I was looking for something else.

Yes, that's vintage KB all right, letting it all hang out in a car worth lots of money, seemingly oblivious of any risk and totally confident of his own abilities. And with good reason, as you saw for yourself...

Now I'll go back to looking for the other subject. But I couldn't leave this hidden, others must read it...

[oldtimer]

Scanning through this thread after Ray's revival, I realise that the name of a certain C.A.S.Brooks is missing in a thread where he should belong. A driver who wrung the utmost from his tyres but not his car.

[Rediscoveryx]

Originally posted by Leo
Although probably not the best car control ever, I would like to talk about two drivers from the current crop: Juan Pablo Montoya and Giancarlo Fisichella. They differ from each other like day and night (in driving style), but still I think they're the finest at the moment.
Montoya seems to be able to get away with the best slides possible in the traction control era. He doesn't seem to rely on reflexes (as to an extent M.Schumacher does). He just chooses the yaw-angle he finds suitable for the corner.
Giancarlo Fisichella is by far the smothest of all. There have been some inboards shots this year and the way he negotiates turns is simply amazing. One flip of the steering wheel and everything else is done on the throttle (I presume). Compare this to a "wild man" like Felipe Massa and Fisichella's ease is almost boring.
Both styles are quite fast as the drivers prove, but in the end car control is nothing else than the trick to keep the car on the right point of the "traction circle" all through the turn. As a turn involves a braking, steering and acceleration part, there are different ways a driver can travel over the friction circle to get the best result. In the end the quickest guy around a turn has the best car control.

Good points (especially the final sentence). I'd like to nominate Mark Webber as well, I thinkmost of what you wrote about Fisichella applies to Webber as well.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Better late than never, I suppose...

In F1, as an eye witness to car control, the best example I ever saw was Denny Hulme in his Brabham at Mosport for the Canadian GP in 1967. Viewing from the hairpin, he would slide the car through the first element of the complex with the tail well and truly hung out, getting the car sideways to position it for the tighter second element leading on to the back straight. A joy to behold. The only ever driver I've ever seen in any class to come close, very close to duplicating this display of control through this tricky combo is, ready for this - Howden Ganley in his BRM for the 1973 Canadian GP.

Also worthy of note for examples of car control and bringing it back from the edge is my witnessing a jaw-dropping display of opposite lock motoring in a practice session for Formula Atlantic cars at Mosport back around 1980. I was viewing from corner 10 which leads on to the pit straight with a good view of corner nine as well. One car, a March, was consistently flirting with disaster in persisting with tail-out slides thru nine and ten. I had no programme, there was no name on the side of the car and I couldn't pick up any name off the helmut. I had no idea whom it was but this guy certainly had the melons! After several laps, I noticed a small string of Fluer de Lilles(sic)ringing the helmut ala JYS's tartan. Hmmmm. Ah. Now I've got it. The new kid on the block. The rookie in Atlantic. It was Jacques Villeneuve. Senior. To bad he never got the real break he needed to get into F1.

Lastly, I saw a film documenting a sports car race from Riverside featuring pre-CanAm cars from 1964. The race was won handily by Dave McDonald in a King Cobra(Cooper-Ford). I was amazed to see him pass through turn six, a long, 180 right-hander with multiple apexes. In one shot, he flicked the steering wheel to the right to initiate corner entry but then immediately went to opposite lock and held it all the way through this long corner, playing with the throttle to achieve the desired trajectory. Amazing stuff. Of course, sadly, Dave was burned to a crisp shortly after in the 1964 Indy horror.

[olol]

Senna in Estoril 1985 and villneuve in Zandvoort 79

[m.tanney]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Yeah, thats why earlier in the thread I was wondering if we were debating car control from a technical standpoint or one of visual enjoyment.

  An excellent point, Ross. In some eras, the two went hand-in-hand. Think of Fangio in the 250F. Or Jim Clark. Clark was an exceptionally smooth and precise driver when circumstances called for it. He was also, when the need arose, a master of four wheel drift. "By any means neccessary..." Border Reiver has an interesting post about Clark's driving on www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s+&postid=1303973 .
  I first started watching F1 in 1973. I was enthralled by the sight of Ronnie Peterson sliding his Lotus 72. A fascinating contrast to Stewart's more precise style (although Jackie could drift it too when neccessary). Not only was Peterson spectacular. In 1973 and '74 he was often the fastest man on the track.
  Like many of the others on this thread, I have to mention Gilles Villeneuve. I saw him race in F.Atlantic and F1. The man could do things with a car that no one else could. A master of car control, in my book.
  With modern F1 cars, the fastest way around is the the smoothest, most precise way. A different standard applies. There is no convergence between the technical standpoint and one of visual enjoyment. Except, sometimes, in the rain. Which brings me to the last F1 driver on my list: Ayrton Senna. His performance in the wet at Donington in 1993 was one of the most amazing demonstrations of car control I've ever seen. Senna's four victories that season may have been the last in which a superior driver triumphed in, and over, an inferior car.
  Most of the posts on this thread have been about F1. All, I think, but Don Capps' have been about road racing and rallying. If you want to see some amazing car control, try getting ahold of one of Dick Wallen's wonderful videotapes of American dirt track racing. I have a couple - one from the early '60s - Parnelli Jones, Jim Hurtubise and Jud Larson are astonishing. The other is from the early '70s - Bettenhausen was great, Opperman utterly breathtaking. Talk about car control!

[Ray Bell]

Maybe I diverge from some opinion, but I think 'car control' is only ever really shown in the extroverted manner... as described by Doug in his post about KB...

KB could also be smooth and quick, and anyone who saw him at Warwick Farm in the Mildren-Alfas would have thought so, but to have seen him a little earlier in the GTA, GTZ2 or the Brabham Climax would have been to see him displaying car control in that extroverted manner...

He never lost the flair, but it was subdued when necessary. I can recall just how far he could go in what might appear to be very ordinary circumstances... like towing a race car to the circuit. Behind Peter Owen's EH station wagon, in traffic in Bowen Bridge Road going out of Brisbane to Lakeside, he tired of the woman in, I think, a Morris Major, so when she got out of the way he wanted her to know of his ire as he went by...

He flicked the trailer with the TVR on it to within inches of her driver's door... then that night came that episode I've mentioned before, reversing the Holden between the pylons in the motel carpark at valve bounce... all to the amusement of the McGuires, this aging couple well aware of his capabilities and antics I have no doubt.

The payoff from this kind of ability is diminished in a modern racing car. Precision is called for, not flair. But in F5000 there was some scope, and when things go wrong there's even more... once again, the flicking of the T400 to put it backwards at Oran Park so he wouldn't hurt himself (he already wore plastic hips...) when it lost the rear brakes heading down into BP Bend.

Jenks always mentioned proprioception, the ability to know where one is in space when things get funny. KB's plucking of reverse gear mid-spin on the Causeway (between barriers only 28' apart...) and backing off that Causeway, round the bend off the Causeway in reverse gear, flicked the nose around and picked up second gear to start spinning the wheels in a forward direction as soon as he was nearly pointed in the right direction. To me that showed KB has proprioception.

The unseen abilities are there in the best. Some, however, I'm sure don't have this extroverted nature in their driving. They can measure the adhesion and take the car to its limit, but they're never seen to press on beyond the finite 'fastest line' level into the trickery that really exemplifies car control at its finest.

To my way of thinking, it takes more to judge where you will finish up when the car regains traction than to measure how far you can take it before it loses it...



I wouldn't be surprised if Jacques Villeneuve Sr had more of this flair than Gilles, for many say he was a better driver. Maybe he merely had a more extroverted way of showing car control?

There would no doubt be many other examples.

I've seen many display these abilities... I'm sure we all have. But the days of them being visible in racing are probably gone.



.....With memories, long held memories, of KB and Johnny Walker side by side in Lolas, sweeping through the corner onto the main staight at Phillip Island.

Roostertails of spray off their rear wheels...

Slick-shod wheels.

Battling for the lead, neither giving up, slithering and skating and feeding in the V8 power, trying to get onto the straight ahead and with more speed.....

[Ross Stonefeld]

Anyone can slide a car. Put 100 people in an F1 car and 10% would be able to hold a slide on 900hp coming off a hairpin. Of those 10 maybe 1 would be able to get through that hairpin at max mph without lighting up the tires.

The difference between the cars then and the cars now is that the limit was a rubberband, it ebbed and flowed and you could come back if you didnt stretch too far. The limit now is much more like a string. Once you get past a certain point the string just breaks.

[Ray Bell]

If you're referring to my post about KB, Ross, then consider that he raced well into the slick era. That was the major change that required greater precision, that brought more clearly defined limits beyond which there was no hope...

[Frank S]

Ross Stonefeld

The difference between the cars then and the cars now is that the limit was a rubberband, it ebbed and flowed and you could come back if you didnt stretch too far. The limit now is much more like a string. Once you get past a certain point the string just breaks.

One of the principal cautions put forth about passenger-car radial tires was just that assertion, if I recall correctly.


At Riverside in the rain, Lee Midgely found himself sliding backward through Turn Nine. His Alfa Duetto was equipped with the usual lightweight one-start battery. He steered around the turn, still backward, locked the brakes, shifted to reverse, let out the clutch to start the engine, flicked the steering wheel, caught the slide as he was pointed the right way, shifted to the proper gear, and drove on.


At Laguna Seca, in a CART race, second place Alex Zanardi drove across unpaved terrain at the bottom of the "Corkscrew," ending up in front of the leader. Whether it was because of a lack of car control at the midpoint of the series, or exceptional control when he came back on course, I couldn't say, but he did get the win. I've forgotten who the second place driver was, but he thought it seemed like cheating.


Frank S

[Chris_Noto]

Originally posted by Frank S
At Laguna Seca, in a CART race, second place Alex Zanardi drove across unpaved terrain at the bottom of the "Corkscrew," ending up in front of the leader. Whether it was because of a lack of car control at the midpoint of the series, or exceptional control when he came back on course, I couldn't say, but he did get the win. I've forgotten who the second place driver was, but he thought it seemed like cheating.

Frank, that was Bryan Herta, quite a good driver, but with no where near the verve and killer instinct that Zanardi showed while with Ganassi in CART.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Chris_Noto
Frank, that was Bryan Herta, quite a good driver, but with no where near the verve and killer instinct that Zanardi showed while with Ganassi in CART.

Have you seen Alex driving recently?

Do you really think he's lost that 'killer instinct'?

And yes, he's another one to nominate for 'car control'...

[LittleChris]

Just thought of a good example, though not the best. Rickard Rydell in the Volvo Estate at Paddock Hill Bend ( Brands Hatch ) . The bloke was absolutely sideways plus it was the first corner of the race and he was mid pack !! Amazingly no one went off !

[Frank S]

Manfred ³noggin:

Lastly, I saw a film documenting a sports car race from Riverside featuring pre-CanAm cars from 1964. The race was won handily by Dave McDonald in a King Cobra(Cooper-Ford). I was amazed to see him pass through turn six, a long, 180 right-hander with multiple apexes. In one shot, he flicked the steering wheel to the right to initiate corner entry but then immediately went to opposite lock and held it all the way through this long corner, playing with the throttle to achieve the desired trajectory. Amazing stuff.

I knew I'd find this eventually. I don't remember what magazine it appeared in. I do recognize one of the white-clad marshals as 27-year-old YourOBedientServant.


Caption: Riverside USRRC, 1964
Dave Mac Donald enters Turn 6 at Riverside in his usual sideways style during the USRRC race in April 1964. MacDonald was driving the bright orange Lang Cooper Ford that was later destroyed by Bob Holbert in a fiery accident at Kent. Mac Donald was well ahead in this race until mechanical problems put him out.

Remember that MacDonald's path was twenty or more degrees left of his car's centerline, more-or-less following the rubber-darkened portion of the road. The arc of that turn is a hundred yards long:
Turn Six overhead
The dirt bank the marshals are on was eventually cut down and is at track level in the overhead photo. Marshals' location would have been just behind of and above the rightmost on-track car in the overhead view.



Frank S

[Wolf]

This splendid pic was posted by Roger Clark some time ago, but it would be nice addition to discussion in here and illustration of Archie's nomination:

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Frank S:

Say, luv the exponent bit with *noggin. How ever did you do that?

Thanks for posting the great pix of DM and you were right there to see it? Green with envy! But...
I'm going to have dig thru my pile of tapes and find the film(I believe it was from ESPN with Dave DeSpain hosting, 'Glory Days')to confirm cuz I don't remember the car as being reddish orange. My recollection was of as being medium-light blue and do know that the King Cobras being run just prior to this event in '64 for Holbert and Parnelli Jones were that shade of blue. Interesting to see, however, this Cooper in that shade with #97 on it and to read that it was subsequently destroyed in a fire. The reason I mention this is that a rebodied Cooper appeared in 1965 in the same reddish-orange, #97 for Charlie Hayes, I believe. I have a b&w pix I took of it in the paddock at Mosport. I'll see if I can dig it up and post. Also, I recall seeing an feature article in Sports Car Graphic on this re-bodied Cooper.

Edit: Oh yea, the whole reason for mentioning the re-body and all is to determine whether it came out of the ashes of car pix posted by you.

[VAR1016]

I'd like to mention Jim Clark again; I know that he appeared early in this thread, but those of us who enjoy a track day at Goodwood (with the Lancia Motor Club each Spring) are constantly amazed when reminding ourselves that Clark was timed at 1:35 around Goodwood in a Lotus Cortina. We just cannot understand how he did that; he would have had perhaps 140BHP and CR65 tyres (three most of the time if memory serves).

Meanwhile, I have in front of me that excellent map of Goodwood showing Archie Scott-Brown's lines in the Lister-Jaguar.

Can anyone tell me what his best time was at Goodwood in the Lister-Jag? I have guessed 1:31.

PdeRL

[Frank S]

Manfred ³noggin:

Say, luv the exponent bit with *noggin. How ever did you do that?

I've lost track of how it's done on a Mac, but most PCs will deliver ³ if you hold down the Alt key while pecking out 0 1 7 9 on the ten-key number pad. When you release the Alt key, voilá (Alt 0225). My favorites are the two thornes: Þ and þ, Alt 0222 and 0254. Thornes are Olde Englishe characters from the Norse (?), pronounced "th" as in "the". The old-timers rendered them in a written form that looked like a "y", leading to some confusion about how to pronounce "Ye Olde Snorkers Shoppe."™ (0153) ® (0174) © (0169)

The most useful—and the only ones I remember more than a minute—are an em dash, 0151 and a bullet · 0183.

Windows has an accessory called "Character Map" that reveals available characters and their codes, as well as offering the opportunity to view them at different sizes and in different fonts.

Frånk S

[smithy]

A late post but no-one seems to have mentioned these efforts:

1. Senna in the rain at Adelaide in a wild spin into the final hairpin accelerating when going backwards but then off the gas when facing forwards inan effort to stop the spin.
2. Schumacher in the monsoon at Spain in 96 (?) in an outrageous four wheel drift out of the final right hander onto the main straight. He did it EVERY lap as well!
3. Schumacher at Monaco in 96 in the rain as well. Another incredible four wheel drift into the swimming pool section.
4. Danny Sullivan at Indy in 82 (?) - a couple of laps from the end, leading by a car length, spins in the middle of the corner, loses the lead but gathers it back up again and goes onto win.

[fines]

Originally posted by smithy
3. Schumacher at Monaco in 96 in the rain as well. Another incredible four wheel drift into the swimming pool section.

If I recall correctly, Schumacher didn't even make it to the harbour, much less the swimming pool - he crashed out on the corner between Loews and Portier, don't know it's name, on lap 1. Did you see this fwd on the warm-up lap? Damon Hill wasn't very spectacular in that race, that is until you looked at the lap times: he was about three to four seconds faster than anyone on every lap - does that count as car control or do you have to let the tail hang out, or produce four-wheel-drifts... ??

Originally posted by smithy
4. Danny Sullivan at Indy in 82 (?) - a couple of laps from the end, leading by a car length, spins in the middle of the corner, loses the lead but gathers it back up again and goes onto win.

That was in '85, and I always thought it was good car control not to spin... ???? You're talking about luck, nothing else!

[green-blood]

Gerry Marshall....of course...

But a bit left field, Yvan Muller (current BTCC Opel driver...oops Vauxhall driver!!!) amazing car control, summed up by his inability to lose an ice race.....oppposite lock overtaking is not so unique but in a FWD BTCC car its some feat.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by fines
.....I always thought it was good car control not to spin...

Unless it's in circumstances like the fifth paragraph of my post on the previous page... post 116 in this thread...

At least I hope you agree with that...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Leo
Although probably not the best car control ever, I would like to talk about two drivers from the current crop: Juan Pablo Montoya and Giancarlo Fisichella. They differ from each other like day and night (in driving style), but still I think they're the finest at the moment.

Of the current F1 crop, I followed Pizzonia's career in the UK closely and the guy stunned me with his car control in FRenault and F3. OK, they're hardly chariots of the Gods, but Pizzonia was incredible around Oulton and Donington in both types of car. I don't think I've ever seen a more classically perfect line through the Craners than Jungle Boy took in his FRenault - from the moment I saw that I knew he was headed for the top.

Yes, I think things are not going well for him at Jaguar - but he's got the right stuff.

[Barry Boor]

Pete, your last post raises an issue that, although somewhat O.T, would maybe be worth thinking about.

In F.3, IIRC Michael Schumacher was not particularly outstanding. At Mercedes in the sports cars, he looked no better of worse the Wendlinger amongst others. Yet once he hit F.1 it was obvious from Spa/Jordan on that here was an exceptional talent.

My point is, do you think that there are some drivers who simply cannot perform in certain types of car? The reasons could be various; e.g. the overall speed of the cars; the technique required to drive them, etc etc etc.

I watched Alex Gurney at Oulton Park when he was in British F.3. Going through the Knickerbrook chicane he was beautifully smooth. Unfortunately, most of the others, especially his team mate Bruni, were chucking the cars in with great gusto. Who was quickest? I'm sure you can guess!

I felt right away that in a bigger, more powerful car, Alex would be, relatively, much quicker; but then maybe not!

Alonso is another in the Schumacher category. He was good in F.3000, but not outstanding - now look at him.

It's just an idea!

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Pete, your last post raises an issue that, although somewhat O.T, would maybe be worth thinking about.

In F.3, IIRC Michael Schumacher was not particularly outstanding. At Mercedes in the sports cars, he looked no better of worse the Wendlinger amongst others. Yet once he hit F.1 it was obvious from Spa/Jordan on that here was an exceptional talent.

My point is, do you think that there are some drivers who simply cannot perform in certain types of car? The reasons could be various; e.g. the overall speed of the cars; the technique required to drive them, etc etc etc.

I watched Alex Gurney at Oulton Park when he was in British F.3. Going through the Knickerbrook chicane he was beautifully smooth. Unfortunately, most of the others, especially his team mate Bruni, were chucking the cars in with great gusto. Who was quickest? I'm sure you can guess!

I felt right away that in a bigger, more powerful car, Alex would be, relatively, much quicker; but then maybe not!

Alonso is another in the Schumacher category. He was good in F.3000, but not outstanding - now look at him.

It's just an idea!

Going back in time, Peter Collins is a name that comes to my mind. He was pretty undistinguished, apart from being pretty wild in those Cooper-JAPs. I remember being concerned at seeing him entered to drive the 4.5l Ferrari-based Thinwall Special at Goodwood, but he took to it like a duck to water.

Other names are eluding these grey cells, but I seem to remember it was not uncommon for a big name to shine as soon as he was put in the top category.

[VAR1016]

Well what about those who could drive anything and win?

Moss, Nuvolari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Collins, Clark, Graham Hill.

A friend who has an encyclopaedic memory for motor racing matters, pointed out to me on the phone only yesterday, Hawthorn's amazing talent for wringing the best from a Ferrari 750 Monza. Apparently many people found it to be quite nasty on occasion, but Hawthorn appeared to be able to do anything with it.

Another candidate for car control has to be the 1956 version of Eugenio Castellotti in his fantastic Mille Miglia drive in the Ferrari 290MM.

PdeRL

[james27w]

Gilles Villeneuve.Hands down.You could read "Michelin, Michelin, Michelin" on his tires as he braked
for the hairpin at Long Beach, lap after lap .The tire was rolling under severe braking while not
generating smoke. It was amazing.Watching him skim the guardrails yet keep it under control was truly mind blowing.After Gilles I would vote for Ronnie Peterson.For someone who never quite made it to F1, Ross Cheever wasn't bad either.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Pete, your last post raises an issue that, although somewhat O.T, would maybe be worth thinking about.

In F.3, IIRC Michael Schumacher was not particularly outstanding. At Mercedes in the sports cars, he looked no better of worse the Wendlinger amongst others. Yet once he hit F.1 it was obvious from Spa/Jordan on that here was an exceptional talent.

My point is, do you think that there are some drivers who simply cannot perform in certain types of car? The reasons could be various; e.g. the overall speed of the cars; the technique required to drive them, etc etc etc.

I watched Alex Gurney at Oulton Park when he was in British F.3. Going through the Knickerbrook chicane he was beautifully smooth. Unfortunately, most of the others, especially his team mate Bruni, were chucking the cars in with great gusto. Who was quickest? I'm sure you can guess!

I felt right away that in a bigger, more powerful car, Alex would be, relatively, much quicker; but then maybe not!

Alonso is another in the Schumacher category. He was good in F.3000, but not outstanding - now look at him.

It's just an idea!

I think there's technicians and naturals.

Schumacher's a technician and F1 at the moment is in the age of the technician - he's got a high degree of natural speed, but has worked and worked at his driving and his testing skills and developed a profoundly analytical approach to his racing. Graham and Damon Hill were technicians, so were the likes of Prost, Brabham, Lauda, Donohue...

Senna was a natural; Pizzonia's a natural; Zanardi is a natural. So were Rindt, Moss, Fangio, Clark, Peterson, Villeneuve, Collins, Hawthorn, Alesi and most of the people that we revere.

JYS and Senna were naturals who made themselves into technicians because they could see it was the way to keep ahead.

Technicians vs naturals isn't just a racing phenomenon; consider vocalists; it's like the difference between Diana Kraal and Billie Holliday; Kraal's a great technician but she's always performing with a safety net; Lady Day was a natural and gave it everything. Both are superb, but one of them lacks a certain passion.


In an age where there's more scope for improvisation in the car (read: less dependence on aero, less dependence on the last few percent of getting the setup right) there's more scope for naturals to express themselves and succeed. Right now, F1 cars are pure technique, and only technicians truly excel.


At least that's how I see it after a few whiskies ;)

pete

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by petefenelon


I think there's technicians and naturals.

Schumacher's a technician and F1 at the moment is in the age of the technician - he's got a high degree of natural speed, but has worked and worked at his driving and his testing skills and developed a profoundly analytical approach to his racing.

pete

The only 'but' I can put aginst Michael Schumacher is about his tactics when about to lose a championship, and possibly not looking the other way when offered a win belonging to his team-mate.

But to reduce him to a mere technician, I can't see it.

Last Sunday we saw him as the consummate stalker after Montoya opened the door to his team-mate's tail. Then, after putting in his usual flier whilst his brother was in the pits (surprise, surprise), he became the consummate hare. Asign a role, and he assumes it.

I am also thinking of the technician with one gear left in his gearbox. When did he test with the car in that condition?

All that without a few whiskies. Maybe I should go and sample a very fine Canadian single malt in my cabinet...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by oldtimer


The only 'but' I can put aginst Michael Schumacher is about his tactics when about to lose a championship, and possibly not looking the other way when offered a win belonging to his team-mate.

But to reduce him to a mere technician, I can't see it.

Last Sunday we saw him as the consummate stalker after Montoya opened the door to his team-mate's tail. Then, after putting in his usual flier whilst his brother was in the pits (surprise, surprise), he became the consummate hare. Asign a role, and he assumes it.

I am also thinking of the technician with one gear left in his gearbox. When did he test with the car in that condition?

All that without a few whiskies. Maybe I should go and sample a very fine Canadian single malt in my cabinet...

It's a very fine distinction at the top level (we know their raw speed is within a couple of percent of each other these days), but I think there are drivers whose approach is fundamentally technical - understand the car and what it's doing, think about strategy and tactics, work hard to improve their understanding and performance - and drivers who leap into the car and drive the nuts off it - and they're the artists.

These days it's probably a finer line than ever - you quite simply don't get that far up the sport without quite a staggering amount of both natural technique and application - but I think the division remains valid.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by petefenelon


... but I think there are drivers whose approach is fundamentally technical - understand the car and what it's doing, think about strategy and tactics, work hard to improve their understanding.

I think 'Fangio' when I read these words.

Maybe there is a technical/artistic continuum rather than a division. It seems the very top performers have a high measure of both. In another sport, ice hockey, I think of Wayne Gretzky.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by petefenelon


It's a very fine distinction at the top level (we know their raw speed is within a couple of percent of each other these days), but I think there are drivers whose approach is fundamentally technical - understand the car and what it's doing, think about strategy and tactics, work hard to improve their understanding and performance - and drivers who leap into the car and drive the nuts off it - and they're the artists.

Technician vs. artist? That's not the way I would have made the distinction. If you had to choose between Dennis Bergkamp ("technician") and Roy Keane ("fighter") in football - who's the artist?

I know, I know, we divide drivers between the 'Prosts' and the 'Sennas', the archetypes of Grand Prix racing - they can be true artists regardless what type they might represent: technician or fighter.

[cabianca]

My moment came at a Trans Am race at Riverside. Parnelli Jones in a Mustang was run off the road during the first lap and came back on with the tire scraping the fender well. Kept going for a bit with the tire smoking but had to come in to have it fixed. He then came out and proceeded to lap the field, including Mark Donohue who I think was in an AMC Javalin. It was magic. I've never been able to figure out why Parnelli only won six races during his Indy car career.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As the topic asks what was the best car control that I have personally seen, mine is a driver that I only saw race once, and never heard of again.

In a support race for the 1989 Grand Prix of San Antonio, an IMSA event, there was a driver named Dick Danielson. He had qualified on pole for his race and was punted from behind at the first turn of the circuit. With the entire field now well past his restarted car, I was mesmerised to watch this driver reel in the field, pass the entire field, and win the event with surplus margin to spare.

While I've seen the likes of Senna, Clark, Mansell, Prost, Schumi and many many others, all of whom I admire for their skills behind the wheel, Dick Danielson on that day showed more determination and car control then I've witnessed before or since.

I was fortunate to have seen it happen.

[doc540]

Not once, but twice between the fences at 160mph on two different occassions during the same Indy 500.

He seems to be looking to his right for the line he's preparing to take after recovery.



(Thanks to the lovely "ecat" from Artemis Images)

Artemis Images

[DOHC]

Originally posted by doc540
Not once, but twice between the fences at 160mph on two different occassions during the same Indy 500.

He seems to be looking to his right for the line he's preparing to take after recovery.

"Spinning takes practice!" as he put it.

Amazing!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Dennis Hockenbury
As the topic asks what was the best car control that I have personally seen, mine is a driver that I only saw race once, and never heard of again.

In a support race for the 1989 Grand Prix of San Antonio, an IMSA event, there was a driver named Dick Danielson. He had qualified on pole for his race and was punted from behind at the first turn of the circuit. With the entire field now well past his restarted car, I was mesmerised to watch this driver reel in the field, pass the entire field, and win the event with surplus margin to spare.

While I've seen the likes of Senna, Clark, Mansell, Prost, Schumi and many many others, all of whom I admire for their skills behind the wheel, Dick Danielson on that day showed more determination and car control then I've witnessed before or since.

I was fortunate to have seen it happen.

Sounds good...

What sort of car, what sort of race? And I wonder if he was dragged before the Stewards for 'overdriving' and became disenchanted?

Maybe somebody can fill in a bit about his career...

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Sounds good...

What sort of car, what sort of race? And I wonder if he was dragged before the Stewards for 'overdriving' and became disenchanted?

Maybe somebody can fill in a bit about his career...

Ray, I really know little if at all of his career. The event in question was a supporting Trans Am race (of the later IMSA flavor). A google reveals that he raced in various SCCA classes and Trans Am events.

I did find this pic of his Olds Cutlass Trans Am car.



Given the spirit of his drive, if in fact he was hauled before the stewards, I certainly would not have wanted to be one of them.

[Ray Bell]

Well, I made that suggestion because I've seen it happen...

Would surely have been a fest to have watched that one then.

Like the days when Greg Cusack threw it all away in the early laps in his 1.5 Brabham... one race he came back to the leaders within about four laps, setting a new record two seconds better than pole... this became a new benchmark and the following meeting he diced with Spencer Martin's 2.5.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by doc540
Not once, but twice between the fences at 160mph on two different occassions during the same Indy 500.

He seems to be looking to his right for the line he's preparing to take after recovery.



(Thanks to the lovely "ecat" from Artemis Images)

Artemis Images

Love those skinny White Wall Tyres !!!

Seriously, Ian "Pete" Geoghan was my hero and the way he tortured that Mustang I often wondered how many bodies he would go through in a season. Incredible wheel angles and car control.

However, not sure of the Tasman Series date (maybe 1969) where I stood mesmerised by Jochen Rindt the rainmeister. The car just drilled the racing line every time in the rain, gliding from side to side with all manner of opposite lock etc .... just neat

[Bondy]

I was always impressed by Peter Hopwoods big slides in the Impala at Amaroo Park, some of the slides coming onto the Front straight and through Mazda House were amazing, and also Dennis Welsch, i hope thats how u spell his name at Bathust in 97 in the Healey race, watching him across McPhillamy Park was amazing, big, big slides.