119 replies to this topic

[Macca]

Yes, there were two fires - in the issue of Autosport that had the British GP report there was a photo of the Cooper-Ferrari being prepared in front of the transporter, which has a big burn mark on it.

Cynics suggested this gave them an idea.......................


Paul M

[Macca]

This is the photo from the C & CC article in 1967- credit where due (Allen? John Pearce estate?).


Paul M

[Macca]

and the whole article from Car & Car Conversions in 1967..................in view of the resurrection of the Cooper, perhaps, Allen, it's a good time to interview Chris Lawrence and get his part of the Pearce story (and see if he has a Pearce-Martin spaceframe tucked away somewhere )


Paul M

[KDW]

Back to the C Lucas Lotus 35 martin V8 car.

After the crash the car was damaged, but what happened to this car subsequently?
Does anyone know ?


Kevin Whittle

[Macca]

From the thread in the 'other place':-

posted by me:-
"The Martin engine saga is another one of my interests, which I am trying get the definitive story on. The new biog of Piers Courage has some info in it, also there was an article in Motor Racing mag in early 1967 and one in Classic Cars in 1990 IIRC about Ted Martin. It seems Lucas had a spare 35 and Ted Martin was looking for a test-bed for the first 3L engine. It raced once in a F.Libre race at Mallory Park on Boxing Day 1966 where Roy Pike came third, non-started at Brands either due to a bent rocker or due to being tow-started with cold oil (it was bitter that day - I was there!) and snapping the cambelt, and then was crashed by Courage testing at Snetterton and caught fire. It was said to have been written-off, but in the Autosport of March 8th 1968 it is offered for sale for £3475, by J.A. Pearce Motors ironically.

Another Motor Racing article, in early 1968, says that Lucas wanted to concentrate on his F3 Titans, so the crash gave him the reason to abandon the F1."


posted by you!!!:-

"In the current Formula Junior Racing Assoc magazine is an obituary for John Romanes of Edinburgh. Seems this Scottish gentleman raced a Lotus 35. It was powered by a Martin engine, that was later removed to fit a 2 litre Climax and raced at Ingleston. The obit writer Andrew Fletcher also drove the same 35 on occasions at Croft and Ingleston.
At Croft the rear suspension broke and the car ended up inverted.
John was so upset at this he cut the Lotus 35 up when he got home."



In the Piers Courage biog there is actually a lot of detail; Piers took part in the 1965-66 Temporada series and crashed c/n 19 twice, first a minor ding, then a bigger one. When the European season started, Lucas Engineering were running the works Lotus F3 team with 41s (and Courage did a couple of F2 races in a works 44), so the 35 wasn't repaired. Lucas was getting his engines dyno'd at Ted Martin's at Haddenham, so they put a V8 in the 35 presumably at Ted's request at the end of 1966.

After the non-start at the RoC at Brands, Courage shunted it again at Snetterton. By this time Lucas were building their own Titan cars, having fallen out with Lotus when Chapman took half the winners' bonus from the 1966 F3 season, and also it seems there were disagreements with Ted Martin about reliability of the F1 engine, so they got rid of the damaged F1 car which was a distraction, and it was sold by J.A.Pearce a year later.

I would think it might be a good idea to talk to Charles Lucas (brother of 'Loti' Irwin on TNF) and to Ted Martin, and of course to David Beard's cousin Oz Timms, for the finer details.


Paul M

[RS2000]

In addition to the alloy wheels they were significant suppliers of widened steel 10" Mini wheels - both standard and Cooper S 3.5" wheels converted to 4.5". They also sold me some original unconverted standard Mini wheels in 66/67 that proved to be the early weak type the centres pulled out of......

[Macca]

The Pearce-Martin V8 being tested by Chris Lawrence at Brands.



J.A.Pearce ad from Motor Racing for May 1967.




Paul M

[FLB]

Originally posted by FLB
Ray, didn't Denny Hulme race a Martin engine early in his career? I seem to remember a quote syaing that he'd been 'fooled' into believing BHP outputs and making the wrong choice?

I found my source. According to Xavier Chimits' F1: Tous les champions du monde, Hulme first bought a Martin engine instead of a Cosworth in 1961. It's written as an actual quote from the Kiwi.

Can anybody verify or was Chimits writing bollocks?

[KDW]

at that time, 1961 Denny would have been racing a Formula Junior. Both Ted Martin and Cosworth were selling Ford 105E based FJ engines.

K Whittle

[Stephen W]

Further details on the DEEP SANDERSON that ran in the 1970 British Sprint Championship.

Just spotted an ad for Lawrencetune in an isuue of Autosport from 1970. In it there is the picture of a Martin V8 installed in the back of a Sports Libre. The text with the picture states that it is the 'Le Mans Deep Sanderson 303' which came second at Greenham Common. Apparently it ran with 'Le Mans equipment and ratios'.

[KDW]

I am interested to know which gearbox the various rear engined cars used with the Martin V8 ?

Was it a FT200 or what/


Kevin

[Stephen W]

Judging from the photo in Autosport, which does tend to concentrate on the engine, it looks loike an early Hewland FG or similar. Certainly not an FT200.

[KDW]

Thinking about it the first FT200 ever made went into a Lotus 47. in 66/67

Kevin

[Macca]

DCN's article in the May 1967 issue of 'Motor Racing' said that it was an HD5.


Paul M

[Macca]

The report of the Silversone transporter fire was greatly exaggerated, and a rare practise shot has finally surfaced..............





;)



Come on, Allen, dig out that interview with John Pearce.....................please.




Paul M

[Allen Brown]

I have tried Paul, I just can't find it.

[Simpson RX1]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
In fact, the first four prototypes of the Monica GT were fitted with the V8 Martin engine in its 3.5 liter version. 87x72.2 3423cc with four double choke Weber carbs it gave 240 hp at 6000 rpm, with a volumetric ratio of 10,5 to 1.

Don't know if this is OT or not, but that seems like an enormous power output for a roadcar engine of that period, given that the Rover/Buick 3.5 would've been around 150 bhp at that time and the Stag 3.0/Ford 3.0 were both around the 135 bhp area...........for an engine to be kicking out another 100+ bhp at that time surely would've made it far too intractable for road use?

[Macca]

Well, the Rover/Oldsmobile/Buick/Pontiac engine was a pushrod designed for American saloons; the Triumph 3-litre V8 in the Stag was essentially two slant-4 Triumph production engines joined together for political reasons to avoid using the Rover V8 - so neither was powerful by modern standards, though adequate for the purpose.

But the Martin V8 was a racing engine intended for the 3-litre Formula 1 of 1966, and kept small so it might fit in existing chassis. It had SOHC heads with belt-driven cam and was developed from Martin's FJ engines via a 2-litre prototype; the racing version developed around 270bhp on carbs, which was obviously not enough to make it competitive, even if it had been ready to race against the Repco-Brabham in 1966.......but it seemed to be all there was available for a privateer at the time.

The 3423cc version producing 240bhp was the detuned enlarged production version; but it was not powerful enough to operate automatic transmission as well (and had reliability and spares availability issues) so the production Monica cars were to use an American V8.


Paul M

[KWhittle]

Macca
You mention Lotus 35 No 19 as the Martin powered car.
The Lotus 35 have two numbers. The chassis plate carries .....F21
While stamped into the base of the seat back is 35/22 for example.

So was No 19 the chasis plate no or the tub no ??
KDW

[Allen Brown]

That's interesting. The Lola T142 has the same issue and the numbers hardly ever match. I wasn't aware of any other car with this particular problem.

Allen

[CLR]

Yes the 35 has this problem.
My car is F20 on the chassis plate and the tub is 35/22
Clive Chapman tells me that ties up perfectly with his records, and as my car is original un restored condition it all makes sense.

Per all the books; Lotus built 22 tubs, but an aquaintance bought Lotus 35 F21, tub 23 in June 2005 !!
KDW

[willga]

Originally posted by Macca
The Lucas-Martin was a modded Lotus 35 Formula 2 which came third at Mallory in the rain on Boxing Day 1966 driven by Roy Pike, and was then entered for the Race of Champions driven by Piers Courage. It was quite slow in practise and then bent a rocker while the engine was being warmed-up on race morning and non-started. Courage then crashed it while testing at Snetterton, and Lucas seized the excuse to drop it to concentrate on manufacturing F3 Titans; it was said to have been written-off but was offered for sale by J. A. Pearce Motors (ironically) about a year later.

Does anyone have any pictures of the Lucas-Martin?

[Sharman]

Originally posted by marat
The original project was a sports car fitted with the 2,6-l Triumph TR4 engine

I don't think that the Vanguard block will go that far

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by BRG
IIRC there is a famous photo of a Martin V8 engined Ford Escort Mk 1 special saloon racer with a piston heading skywards through a hole in the bonnet - taken at Brands Hatch (?) in the mid '70s. Can anyone find that shot?

A near neighbour of mine, Hal Danby, used to race a Martin engined Escort. Could this be the same car?

JH

[Macca]

Originally posted by willga


Does anyone have any pictures of the Lucas-Martin?

(Mallory, 26-12-1966, Roy Pike.)

There's also a picture in the Piers Courage biog of him practising it at Brands for the Race of Champions in March 1967, by which time the monocoque sides had been painted and it had acquired an engine cover.

Paul M

[David Beard]

Originally posted by petefenelon
According to the good Dr Lawrence:



(A-Z of Sports Cars Since 1945, p 227)

There is an excellent little website on the Monica (with pictures, brochures etc.) here:

http://vea.qc.ca/vea...ues1/monica.htm

There is an excellent article on the Monica in the latest edition of Automobile Quarterly, which mysteriously arrived here today. A letter with it said that this would be the last I would receive unless I renewed my subscription.

Strange, because I have never subscribed....can anyone explain?

[CLR]

Ted Martin told me recently that RR were to build the Martin V8 for the Monica but as they would not gtee outputs the owner of the company decided to employ a known American V8

[Bjorn Kjer]

Anyone for the type and color on the Pearce transporter??
Looks to me as the UDT/BRP one?? Bjørn Kjer

[Macca]

I presume the transporter was the same green/white as the cars (I was at the RoC at Brands in 1967 but I don't remember seeing it), as here:



(copyright Geoff Goddard/The GP Library)

and here is another picture of the prototype Pearce-Martin at the 1967 Racing Car Show - there appears to be tubing inside the cockpit:



Paul M

[JOHN BURBIDGE]

Originally posted by Stephen W
Latest results:


3) Autosport 25/07/69 Comet Deltune Racing Team offered for sale the John Burbidge MARTIN Escort.

Fame at last

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

[hardy]

Originally posted by klemcoll
Back in 1960 and again in 1962 I ran cars out of Michael Christie's Alexander Engineering in Haddenham: a Turner 950 in '60 and a pair of special Chevy IIs for the "balloon" car series in '62. Ted had a little workshop out back of Alexander's where he had his brake, etc. He was then a really creative, free-thinking guy, albeit on an absolute shoestring. I recall he had a lay-down Ford FJr. motor at one point, though I cannot recall if it ever went into a car. I really felt he was almost like a British version of Smokey Yunick, who had had a hand in building my Chevy II in Florida with Jim Rathmann

About a month ago I had an opportunity to drive by where Alexander's and Ted had been. It's now a bunch of industrial buildings, but I think one of them may still be the original Alexander's workshop. Those were fun days indeed.

I worked for Alexanders as an apprentice mechanic early 1960's (gave up after three years) I remember Ted Martin's well and often would pop in and watch him working , bearing in mind we are talking 40 plus years ago, I can recall two of his mechanics Bernhard ( lived near Wendover) and another mechanic whose parents had a hotel in Wendover.

I know Russ Fillbey of Turners cars has information regarding Ted Martin's welfare, perhaps he may help you further????

[Mistron]

Originally posted by KDW


The lay down FJ motor you may be thinking of was the 105E based motor at 72 degrees to the vertical fitted into the Ausper FJ car. It obviously featured down draught Webers.

Kevin Whittle

Is this the car raced at this years revival by Will Stone (who works for Gregor Fisken)?

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

[bradbury west]

There is an interesting article by Martin Buckley in this month's C&SC based on an interview with Ted Martin, not the least of which is the information that his V8 block was "square" and had forked conrods - for the engineers among you.
Roger Lund

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by bradbury west
...and had forked conrods.

Did he say that with an accent?

[Macca]

Here is a photo of the Lotus 35-Martin at Brands in March 1967, found on another forum (copyright unknown):



and links to pictures from Snetterton last w/e:

http://andrewkitson1.../p58653030.html
http://andrewkitson1.../p58653029.html

Paul M

[mariner]

Two small points on Martin engines.

Firstly I bought a 1600 cc ford cylinder head once from Sid Marler of Ellova Clubmans car fame which had unusual ports ( but not downdraft ). I seem to recall he ( Sid Marler) called it a "Martin head". I think it had been used in Eire at some time.

Secondly I remember a story about the Monica V-8 engine being assembled entirely with allen bolts ( capscrews). The magazine implied that the desigenr has done some work on bus engine cylinder head efficiency and had been paid in Allen bolts. If that is true or why a bus company would use capscrews as a supplier currency is all beyond me but it was a nice story.

[David Beard]

Secondly I remember a story about the Monica V-8 engine being assembled entirely with allen bolts ( capscrews). The magazine implied that the desigenr has done some work on bus engine cylinder head efficiency and had been paid in Allen bolts. If that is true or why a bus company would use capscrews as a supplier currency is all beyond me but it was a nice story.

As I have mentioned before, my cousin was working for Ted Martin when he produced the V8. I asked him about this story and got no confirmation, but he did remark: "Ted always had a ready & ample supply of capscrews, I never knew the reason why!"

[Macca]

It was in an article about Ted Martin in the May '67 edition of 'Motor Racing' that the episode of the Allen screws was mentioned.........the article was written by one D.Nye.


Paul M

[Macca]

Here are some pictures of the Martin V8 in Allan Rennie's Lotus 35 at Silverstone in October:







It really is an extremely small unit for a 3-litre, fitting in with space to spare at both ends. The sump is very shallow so the engine sits low, but as the plugs are at 45 degrees at the outside of the cylinders, there has to be a removeable panel on the tub to get a plug-spanner through to them.

The hefty crash bar and its stays mean the exhausts run differently to the original, and the silencers have to be fitted for most of the tracks it's been on........

And here is a drawing of the arrangement of the forked (no, no Carruthers, I said 'my conrods are FORKED....') connecting-rod in the R-R Merlin aero engine:http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/articleimages/reno/gwreno-68.jpg

Paul M

[Macca]

For anyone interested in the internals of a Martin V8, Allan Rennie's website about his Lotus 35:

http://www.lotus35ma....com/index.html

Paul M

[David Beard]

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping until I got home

Edited by David Beard, 01 September 2011 - 07:27.

[Giraffe]

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping unitil I got home

You really should get out more, David! The affable Allan Rennie as been running it regularily for a couple of seasons now at HSCC meetings. At the Gold Cup, Coventry-Climax guru Tony Mantle was assisting Allan with the set-up which certainly improved the handling. It's a pity tho' that the HSCC has now decided it should run in the Derek Bell series rather than in Classic Racing Cars.


http://www.lotus35ma....com/index.html

[arttidesco]

The Lotus 35 Martin at Oulton Park on Monday. I'm really annoyed I didn't look over it in the paddock, but I didn't realise what I was snapping until I got home

Ditto had no idea what I was looking at but fortunately took a few snaps of it with the bodywork off, this is the only one I have on my laptop more to follow when I get home.

[andyrp26]

Oddly enough i took these shots at the Walter Hayes Trophy meeting never having any knowledge of the car,i knew the engine was unusual and neat.I can see a couple of differences since 2010, the rocker covers have become black and the exhaust primaries are coated.There seems to be some sort of fabrication hanging over the carbs in the Oulton shot?

[Giraffe]

IIRC when the car made it's Silverstone debut, TNFer Macca introduced me to Allan Rennie. Macca had also produced a model of the car for the occasion which sat perched on the front of the Lotus in the garage. I'm not sure if I took a pic or not, but I fell certain you must have done so, Macca?

Edited by Giraffe, 02 September 2011 - 10:35.

[Macca]

http://forums.autosp...w...80&start=80

http://forums.autosp...w...74730&st=40

Paul M

[petestenning]

Brian Cutting had a Martin engined Escort entered by F English , Bournemouth i believe in the 70 'S.

[rwills]

There was a Martin engine fitted to my old Daren Mk2 sports car. David Sewell who worked with the Darens in period said the block was so porous it used more water than fuel and they never got it to work properly. Sadly David died recently in a plane crash in Nigeria.

[kayemod]

Brian Cutting had a Martin engined Escort entered by F English , Bournemouth i believe in the 70 'S.

There's a strange connection (of sorts) here. F English Bournemouth was owned by Col. Ronnie Hoare, who was also the owner of Maranello Concessionaires. Colonel Ron had the most magnificent railway layout I've ever seen, I never got a proper viewing from the man himself, but buying a new Ford Capri from them got me into the building. Apparently he was fond of turning off the lights, whereupon all the coaches and everything else on the layout lit up. It all completely filled a large purpose-built wooden building behind the pumps on the F English forecourt, and when a dodgy financial situation meant that their bank forced F E to sell their site to Tesco and move their whole setup to a nearby industrial estate, Colonel Ron bought an empty factory unit, and transported all his model trains there. Ted Martin on the other hand had an astonishing collection of proper passenger-hauling steam locomotives, most of them built by him, that ran around his house and huge garden somewhere near the M4, tunnels, cuttings, brick-built stations and engine shed, the lot, no idea what has happened to it, but it must have been worth millions, it certainly cost him that to build. This all featured in Ted's obituary in The Times when he died a year or so ago. One of my friends, the also sadly late Phil Smith was 'best mates' with Ted, I never got to see Ted's trains in all their splendour, but Phil had an excellent photo album that he often showed me, believe me they were really quite something to behold. No idea if Ted and the Colonel ever met, but they'd certainly have had plenty of interests in common to chat about, and not just racing cars and engines either.