3865 replies to this topic

[Bjorn Kjer]

Unfortunately another uncomplete story with unconfirmed infos !

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 25 July 2012 - 20:41.

[D-Type]

Well, assuming the auctioneer's information is correct (which it has to be to avoid charges of misrepresentation!) it's a classic George Washington's axe or Ship of Theseus. The drivetrain has been replaced by a non original one; the body panels have been replaced; the glass has been replaced; the chassis has been "stabilised and restored" (whatever that might mean - paint it with "Jenolite" and replace all the rusty metal?). So how much is original? 10% maybe

Edited by D-Type, 26 July 2012 - 10:46.

[Robin Fairservice]

This sounds like the transporter featured in Jenk's story of a trip to the opera at Verona.

[fbarrett]

fbarret :

Did you get my mail ?

Bjørn

Bjorn:

Sorry, no, I didn't get it. My e-mail is fdb912@gmail.com

Frank

[Bjorn Kjer]

Thanks for the link Roger.

Robin , correct ,the original Scarab transporter.

Duncan , whatever the auctioneers intention is , it is uncomplete and not correct. And as usual they did not respond to my mail , asking for some infos and confirmation.

Frank , my mail : kjerbjoern@hotmail.com

The book "Inside the paddock" does cover the life of the transporter under : Scarab , Cobra, A.Mann and Woolfe Racing plus a scale drawing.

If anyone should be interest in my own research , contact me on the above mail adress and I will send it.

Bjørn

[D-Type]

Bjorn, rather than simply saying "incomplete and not correct", why don't you say what is missing and what "facts" are stated wrongly. While the Scarab history is somewhat fanciful - claiming that the F1 Scarab showed that American racing car technology could beat the world etc - the history of the transporter itself pretty well reflects what I know of its story, I knew of the Maserati > Scarab > Shelby bit, but not the subsequent history.

The auctioneer's intention is the same as any auctioneer's, ie to present what he is selling in as good a light a possible without being dishonest. But he has to tread carefully. He can exaggerate opinion as he has done with the first paragraph but he cannot make any incorrect staements of fact. He can omit parts of the history, but if he knowingly states something incorrect then he is guilty of the [criminal?] offence of misrepresentaion.

So, what is inaccurate and what significant parts of the transporter's history are missing?

[Macca]

Yes, to say the single-seaters were 'less dominant' goes beyond stretching the truth - they were obsolescent and failed; and even the Cobras were never dominant, just successful.

And why do Renault keep getting a mention when they mean Lotus (or JWA) - had they got their F1-friendly filter turned on backwards?


Paul M

Edited by Macca, 26 July 2012 - 11:25.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Paul , you must read both articles to get the full confusion .

[David M. Kane]

From the 2010 Alumni car show at my old high school:







I know nothing about its/their history.

This impressive rig was at the Cobra Celebration in Pomona a few months ago parted in front of the Wally Parks Museum.

[Bjorn Kjer]

OK Duncan , this is no joking or ironic .

From where comes the info that it was a Maserati comissioned transporter taking the 250F1 around Europe in 1957 & 1958(?) ?

Is it 1956 or 1959 model ?

Why omit owners ?

Why not the correct line of owners ?

How Reventlow in 1961 ?

Just to name some questions. If you can shed light on any , I shall be very happy. Especially the very first question.

[Bob Riebe]

Love- that old red Ford- sweet.

[D-Type]

OK Duncan , this is no joking or ironic .

From where comes the info that it was a Maserati commissioned transporter taking the 250F1 around Europe in 1957 & 1958(?) ?
I don't think the vendor could claim that if it is the ex-Maserati transporter unless it is. It's too well-known

Is it 1956 or 1959 model ?
If it's the ex-Maserati transporter surely it's 1956

Why omit owners ?
Which ones have been omitted? Presumably because the vendors feel that listing minor owners doesn't add value.

Why not the correct line of owners ?
What is incorrect? Are the listed owners out of order or are there simply some omissions?

How Reventlow in 1961 ?
This puzzles me as the Scarabs ran in Grands prix in 1960. I can only assume it's a typo.

Just to name some questions. If you can shed light on any , I shall be very happy. Especially the very first question.

Bjorn, you know a lot about transporters as it's a particular interest of yours. We don't know as much, which is why I asked you to explain what you consider incorrect in the quoted history.
If it is not the ex-Maserati, ex-Reventlow vehicle then which one is it? Bartoletti didn't make that many transporters. Or, are you saying that the Scarab transporter was not ex-Maserati?

[Bjorn Kjer]

Fiat bus chassis (1956-1959)build up by Bartoletti in 1959 for Scarab to use in 1960 F1 racing.
After folding the Fiat was rented to Lotus for a year = 1960/61
Then returned to Bartoletti where Shelby bought it and had a 3 axle added for the heavier weight of Cobras.
1964 running under Shelby and for 1965/66 under A.Mann for Cobras and Fords.Mann changed the engine line to a Leyland.
Sold to Woolfe Racing for 1967 ,they used it through 1968 then sold to Piper. In 1970 Piper lend it to the LM film and by 1971 JCB bought it. In the years 1976 to 1979 JCB supported and transported the Harvey Cluxton/GTC ex JWA Mirages with Cosworth or Renault engines at Le Mans.
Michael Shoen from USA bought it in 1979 and brought it to the US. A later family feud (the U Haul Company) made a loss for Michael Schoen and the Fiat was in it all , being taken over by Amerco in 1988, an umbrella Co. for U Haul I believe , and left in the Arizona desert. Some privateers tried to buy it , and one , Don Orosco finally managed it in 2006 . By 2008 after a lot of hours and search for parts the car was presented at Pebble Beach.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 04 August 2012 - 15:42.

[bradbury west]

It has been covered at some length in photographs and narrative on TNF, and ISTR an article in one of the comics.
http://www.ultimatec...bble-Beach.html
Roger Lund

[D-Type]

Curioser and curioser. The Pebble Beach blurb says

Local historic racer and great Scarab fan Don Orosco brought out his recently resurrected Fiat Transporter used by the Scarab F1 team when they toured Europe in 1960. It had previously been used by Maserati and served on into the 1970s. It also made an appearance in the legendary movie Le Mans both as a Ferrari and a Porsche transporter. Don found the massive machine in absolute derelict condition and invested at least 10,000 man hours to bring it back to life. It was shown on the lawn loaded with Don’s two Formula 1 cars and his replica Mk I Sports Car.

So, are the writers of the Pebble Beach website correct and it was the same transporter? Or were there two of them: the Maserati one plus a similar one commissioned new by Reventlow?

[Bjorn Kjer]

Scarab bought and used the first 2 axle version - Shelby changed it to 3 axle - A.Mann changed the powerline to Leyland - Orosco totally rebuild it = all the same car , the one and only !

And if anyone should think or mean differently , please supply proof so that my story can be corrected . Elsewise I only see all other storys to be wrong and should be made right.

Before anyone asks if I have researched , the answer is yes . I have looked and found , I have been on the internet and found , I have gone through books and I have contacted all those still left from the days then , only a couple of them has so far not been cooperative , which however dii only have small influence. And I am not finished researching yet , if so I would long have made my opinion very clear to some people.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 28 July 2012 - 13:19.

[D-Type]

Scarab bought and used the first 2 axle version - Shelby changed it to 3 axle - A.Mann changed the powerline to Leyland - Orosco totally rebuild it = all the same car , the one and only !

And if anyone should think or mean differently , please supply proof so that my story can be corrected . Elsewise I only see all other storys to be wrong and should be made right.

Before anyone asks if I have researched , the answer is yes . I have looked and found , I have been on the internet and found , I have gone through books and I have contacted all those still left from the days then , only a couple of them has so far not been cooperative , which however dii only have small influence. And I am not finished researching yet , if so I would long have made my opinion very clear to some people.

Now I am totally confused Earlier you said this is not the ex-Maserati transporter now you say it is!

This discussion started when you stated that the RM Auctions description was "Unfortunately uncomplete and unconfirmed infos!". I'm not saying I disagree with your summation as I don't know the story as intimately as you do. but I would like to know where they have got it wrong.

Can I ask you to go back to their description and go through it paragraph by paragraph and say where it is incomplete, ie where parts of its story have been omitted, and which information you consider is unconfirmed (and by inference potentially inaccurate).

[Bjorn Kjer]

Sorry Duncan , but where do I say it was a Maserati transporter ?

My posts 2660 show some questions to the infos in the article , and 2663 tells the whole story.

To sum it up , there was and is only 1 car , and it was never a Maserati transporter.

[D-Type]

Sorry Duncan , but where do I say it was a Maserati transporter ?

My posts 2660 show some questions to the infos in the article , and 2663 tells the whole story.

To sum it up , there was and is only 1 car , and it was never a Maserati transporter.

But Denis Jenkinson says the Scarab team Fiat-Bartoletti transporter was purchased from Maserati (See "JENKS, A Passion for motor sport pp123-126). I accept that DSJ is not infallible but he is generally accurate on points of fact.
What is your basis for saying that there is only one transporter and that Scarab bought it new? And if they did, what did Maserati use?

Edited by D-Type, 28 July 2012 - 19:15.

[Bjorn Kjer]

I am sorry D , I do not know about a Maserati transporter. Where do you come to thar conclusion ?

[D-Type]

I am sorry D , I do not know about a Maserati transporter. Where do you come to thar conclusion ?

From the Jenkinson book. (The article is about going to the opera in Verona in this transporter).

The text, referring to the 1960 Scarab effort, says "~Sensibly, they had bought one of the huge Maserati transporters at the start of the season~". The picture caption says "~This Fiat-Bartoletti transporter had been bought in 1960 by the American Scarab team and in time would be passed on to Shelby American for transporting their works Cobras.~". Incidentally the photo shows the transporter devoid of sign writing with a single rear axle but with twin rear wheels. The registration number isn't visible.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Ah that one , this is the one and only 2 axle never in Maseratis ownership or use which later becam 3 axled and got a Leyland drive line etc. etc. Yes Jenks had a trip in it.

And before you ask me if I really think Jenks is wrong , my answer is yes.

But it would be very kind of you if you would send me the 3 pages mentioned in your post 2669 , as I do not have that book ?

Anyway , this has spurred me on to get get my papers finally sorted and try to get hold of "the rest" if they are still around.

PS. Unfortunately there are nothing left on Bartoletti in Italy ...............

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 30 July 2012 - 09:28.

[Papiyv]

Bjorn, you know a lot about transporters as it's a particular interest of yours. We don't know as much, which is why I asked you to explain what you consider incorrect in the quoted history.
If it is not the ex-Maserati, ex-Reventlow vehicle then which one is it? Bartoletti didn't make that many transporters. Or, are you saying that the Scarab transporter was not ex-Maserati?

Story with photos here , post from Camerat on French Forum Motorlegend :

http://forums.motorl...ad.php?p=528381

[Bjorn Kjer]

I do not agree as I wrote on that thread . The story is not right and not complete , sorry. In the book "Inside the Paddock " is the complete story though in few words . This is my statement untill otherwise proven .

Cheers Bjørn

[D-Type]

I do not agree as I wrote on that thread . The story is not right and not complete , sorry. In the book "Inside the Paddock " is the complete story though in few words . This is my statement untill otherwise proven .

Cheers Bjørn

Come on then! Tell us where it is wrong

[Bjorn Kjer]

Your post Duncan , is crying for a comment .

[D-Type]

I am not claiming the report is wrong. I am not the specialist on transporters. I have not written a book on the subject. I do not have the source material to back up my opinions. I am simply interested to know.

Over to you ...

[Bjorn Kjer]

Post 2663 tells the whole story in short . All other infos are unconfirmed .

[richie]

Martyn Denley Racing - September 1973

Edited by richie, 04 August 2012 - 21:52.

[wenoopy]

So, are the writers of the Pebble Beach website correct and it was the same transporter? Or were there two of them: the Maserati one plus a similar one commissioned new by Reventlow?

A quote from "A Story of Formula 1" by Denis Jenkinson (Grenville 1960) :

"Before they withdrew from Grand Prix racing at the end of 1957 the Scuderia Maserati used a Bartoletti transporter, identical to that of the Ferrari team, apart from the colour being blue and yellow, against Ferrari red. In 1960 the Scarab team had a similar transporter built for their Grand Prix cars, and theirs was painted a light blue.....".

He then went on to briefly tell the Verona Arena story, but in it refers to "one of the Maserati* transporters", without mention of the Scarab team. Perhaps he used the story-teller's ploy of combining two stories for better effect in the (presumably)BRDC magazine version. Does anybody know when or if that story appeared?

Stu

* Or perhaps he meant "Bartoletti" not Maserati.

[Bjorn Kjer]

I do not have the book , but got a copy from the Verona story , he talks about an American team (Which) that left their transporter (which) in Italy (why) with Henry (who)to wait . When did it go to Italy ? After the French GP and then back to UK for the British GP for Lotus ? If sent to Italy after the GBGP , then why , cause Lotus had it for a year from the GBGP ?
Thanks for your opinion Weenopy , because DSJ could easily have called things some different names or he could simply be wrong. Maserati did get their 642 a sister to 2 Ferrari 642's in 57 and used it till 62 in blue and yellow (Colour of Modena) . They according to my info never had other open transporters or anyone ordered. etc.etc.

Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 06 August 2012 - 21:53.

[Tarpon]

Dennis was probaly talking about ....... the 642 Furgon Scuderia Maserati USA and 642 furgon Scuderia Scarab Cooper USA ,

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hi Tarpon , long time.

How do you see a connection here ? Are you thinking of Maseratis small closed 642 van sold to Reventlow in 56 and taken to the US ? I deliberately left that out , not to confuse more.

PS. I cannot agree to your names , as far as I know the car after repainting carried the name Reventlow Automobiles , not Scuderia this or that. But had Cooper and Maserati logoes each at least on either side , but none for 1960/61.

[Tarpon]

There is no confusion in my mind , Jenkinson has probably mixed the fact that Reventlow bought off the ex Maserati 642 USA and thougt that the 306 made by Bartoletti for Scarab was an ex Maserati according to the end of maserati team.
Ferrari and Maserati were truck chassis, Scarab was bus chassis probably to get a longer wheel base to add more space for works , as at the beginning scarab had a single rear axle it looked like the other ones for somebody who sees trucks like only trucks.
And there is no picture or video where you could see such a maserati truck
Curiously when the story began ,when restoration ended,the story was less ...complicated ,newspaper according to the owner gave a more credible history:

http://www.automobil...er/viewall.html

For one million dollars you can add some magic history to this truck , "Hemmings" is a good friend for that :

http://blog.hemmings...ads-to-auction/

[cstlhn]

Bjorn has aked me to post this one from LeMans.



Buona fortuna, David

Just an FYI for my friends here I have a small collection of 35mm negatives for sale in the For Sale section of this Forum.

[Ted Walker]

Just looked on Race cars Direct web site and they are selling a Ferrari transporter in Japan.

[oldclassiccar]

Just looked on Race cars Direct web site and they are selling a Ferrari transporter in Japan.

Link: 1969 Ferrari transporter

RJ

[rgriffs]

has anyone got any photo's of the ford coach reg no yvx 217f, i did see a photo on this forum, but cannot find it again. anything will do, trying to get enough info to build it in 1/24th scale.
http://www.bing.com/...amp;FORM=IDFRIR

Edited by rgriffs, 19 August 2012 - 10:37.

[rgriffs]

thought someone may be interested in my models, the bedford is as used by the works lister team in 1958.
http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream
the next is the ecurie ecosse transporter, scratch built in 1/24th scale.
http://www.flickr.co.../in/photostream

Edited by rgriffs, 19 August 2012 - 15:15.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Beautifull made , well done !.

Any reg. no. for the Lister Bedford ?

[rgriffs]

646 CE, it was on trade plates. saw some photos of it in paul skilleters book on listers.

[D-Type]

On the subject of trade plates: I see two of the D-Types are sporting painted on trade plates similar to the works cars. I've always understood that the Ecurie Ecosse Jaguars were all road registered and although I have seen many photos with number plates I can't recall seeing any with trade plates. So, when did they race on trade plates?

[rgriffs]

1957 lemans, car 15, xkd 606 wore trade plate 341 SG, car no 15 xkd 603 wore trade plate 376 SG. page 164 in andrew whytes book 'jaguar sports racing and works competition cars from 1953'. car 4 from 1956 ran on road plate MWS 301.
just a point to make about accuracy, the transporter as photographed would never have occured with three d types on board, they had been sold off years before the transporter was built. i just like them. it would probably have a cooper, a tojeiro buick or ford, possibly an austin healey sprite, very much how dick skipworth poses the transporter nowadays.

[D-Type]

Thanks. they obviously road registered the ex-works cars later than Le Mans.

incidentally Graham Gauld's Ecurie Ecosse book on P76 has a picture of the new transporter captioned "The two remaining long-nose D-Types of Ecurie Ecosse at Silverstone in 1960" Both with high screens. They appear to be numbered MWS 301 (originally XKD501) and RSF 301 (originally XKD 606) although by then RSF 301 had been transferred to their Lister and possibly even on to the Tojeiro.

[rgriffs]

yes thats what i have read, the ecosse and works registrations were swapped around extensively, much to the annoyance of historians.
i made a mistake and thought the date of the transporters debut later, it was 1960, as you correctly state, looked up my own research and found my error.

Edited by rgriffs, 20 August 2012 - 15:51.

[D-Type]

They make a lovely set anyway. I see you've done the Works, Cunningham and ENB Listers - any thoughts of adding an Ecurie Ecosse one to the set?

[rgriffs]

i've got lots of photos of it, so it may get done sometime. other things on my desk at present, the future projects are on the boil, hence my enquiry about the alan mann transporter.

[asapiro]

I too enjoyed the photos

questions:

where did you source the resin Lister kit?

and did you use a kit to source the wheels, tires, and chassis for the Ecurie Ecosse transporter?
and did you use Mike Sells' drawings to construct the tranposter?

i've got lots of photos of it, so it may get done sometime. other things on my desk at present, the future projects are on the boil, hence my enquiry about the alan mann transporter.

[rgriffs]

I too enjoyed the photos

questions:

where did you source the resin Lister kit?

and did you use a kit to source the wheels, tires, and chassis for the Ecurie Ecosse transporter?
and did you use Mike Sells' drawings to construct the tranposter?

andy.
saw an article in motorsport magazine about 12 years ago, a colleague at work spurred me on to build it, so i started to research it a bit more.
i was given an article which included mike sells drawings. however i had already drawn up my own, they were quite similar, certain shapes and details were slightly different, it was entirely scratchbuilt, with the exception of the wheels/tyres, again i was given them and suspect they were of italieri origin. the model is depicted as it is today, post restoration. i saw the transporter after i had built it. guess what, there are a number of changes that i would do, second time around. many of the changes are subtle some less so. the model has been displayed in the passenger area of the real thing at oulton park in the u.k.
the lister kit was designed and constructed by me, as this is a forum for transporters, if you wish to contact me at rgriffs@tiscali.co.uk, please feel free to do so.
i have seen your work on the gpma, very impressed i was too.

Edited by rgriffs, 21 August 2012 - 17:04.

[fbarrett]

The restored Ferrari/Reventlow/Shelby/"Grand Prix"/Don Orosco Fiat-Bertoletti transporter was offered in Bonham's auction in Monterey last weekend; it was bid up to $900,000 but apparently did not sell.