Anyone have information on Cooper Monaco CM/2/63?
#1
Posted 29 April 2006 - 02:46
P.S. In case you are interested here is some of what I have on the other cars. Please let me know of any problems here.
CM/4/62 Bruce McLaren's prototype T-61M, sold to Roger Penske.
CM/5/62 Jack Hinkle's car eventually sold to Tracy Bird who installed ferrari v12 power.
CM/1/63 Shelby King Cobra driven by Dave MacDonald eventually sold to Charles Cox.
CM/2/63 ????
CM/3/63 Shelby King Cobra Bob Holbert originally drove this one.
CM/4/63 Nicky Chevrolet - this may also have become George Wintersteens?
CM/5/63 Comstock's first car with larger radiator opening, wrecked by Eppie Wietz and scrapped.
CM/6/63 Second Comstock Car, driven by Ludwig Heimrath and also Walt McKay. Sold to Nat Adams
CM/1/64 Lang Cooper wrecked by Bob Holbert, rebuilt with a new frame and body designed by Pete Brock
CM/2/64 John Mecom used it as the basis of the Hussein 1.
CM/3/64 A Cooper Chevy with some racing history, currently for sale in California.
CM/4/64 Shelby King Cobra raced twice.
CM/5/64 Shelby King Cobra (this car and CM/6/64 had a big spoiler and Cortina tail lights)
CM/6/64 Shelby King Cobra - Parnelli Jones car
Barry Brown Car, this car was built from a spare frame in the 80s. Currently vintage racing in europe.
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#2
Posted 29 April 2006 - 05:17
Or did someone merely supply a convenient missing number?
#3
Posted 29 April 2006 - 08:04
Could that be Wayne Mitchell? Sounds a bit early for him to be driving something so big but it's possible. Wayne drove FCs and FBs in the mid-1960s. He posts on 10 Tenths from time to time so he's easy to ask.Originally posted by chuckbrandt
CM/2/63 was sold to W. Mitchell in February of '63 less engine and gearbox.
Allen
#4
Posted 29 April 2006 - 08:19
William "Bill" Mitchell, VP of GM design.
#5
Posted 29 April 2006 - 09:11
#6
Posted 29 April 2006 - 10:26
#7
Posted 29 April 2006 - 10:46
#8
Posted 29 April 2006 - 10:57
"Across the Atlantic, on 3 February, the USRRC season commenced with Jim Hall - Texan constructor of Chaparral cars - winning at Daytona in his white-painted T61M from three Porsches, a Dino and Corporal Timmy Mayer's ex-Penske Monaco-Climax."
That seems like a good theory... But Doug says CM/2/63 was delivered in February, and the race was February 2nd. And it says it was Climax powered.
Chuck
#9
Posted 29 April 2006 - 13:21
Don't read too much into those dates in Cooper records. I've found that they can sometimes be a little after the first appearance date of a car - maybe because the car was more important to get sorted out than the paperwork.
I wonder if the original records give other details, such as the colour of the car. Maybe Doug still has copies of the originals.
Where had the works/Penske 4/62 got to by Feb 1963? The Mayer car was his earlier Cooper-Monaco wasn't it?
Allen
#10
Posted 29 April 2006 - 14:11
Originally posted by David McKinney
I didn't know Stillwell had a 61M
I know that David, I simply asked if it was of any interest, having been one of the first converted to V8.
#11
Posted 29 April 2006 - 14:26
Doug also makes reference to smooth front end bodywork being installed.
But then you might get concerned by the following picture. It's at a "Texas Special 5 lap race" probably at Green Valley. Penske won driving the cooper-chevy #36. It's clearly towards the end of '63 as both of the king cobras are in their configuration (bundle of snakes exhaust) that they ran at Nassau. So which car is this? New bodywork on CM/4/62?
Chuck
#12
Posted 29 April 2006 - 14:36
That's a tough call. Currently I'm thinking I should focus on the T-61M cars only. But without all those earlier cars the T-61Ms probably would have never been made. And since I am covering other competing cars in the book it probably does make sense to cover other V8 monacos to some extent. Certainly Rodger Ward's monaco buick ties in nicely to the overall story because the conversion was done by Bob McKee who sold his transaxles to Shelby and built his Mk1 Chevette in '64. Anyway, yes... they probably should be covered.
Thanks, Chuck
#13
Posted 29 April 2006 - 15:08
#14
Posted 29 April 2006 - 15:38
Chuck
#15
Posted 29 April 2006 - 15:54
1961 Cooper-Monaco Mk III
CM/1/61 Hap Sharp June 1961 (less engine) - Jim Hall by Jan 1963
CM/2/61 Roger Penske Aug 1961 (FPF) - Tim Mayer late 1962 (FPF), retained 1963
CM/3/61 Peter Berry Sep 1961 for Bruce McLaren (2.7 FPF) - Briggs Cunningham (3.5 Buick) 1962
1962 Cooper-Monaco Mk IV
CM/1/62 Briggs Cunningham Jan 1962 (2.8 Maserati)
CM/2/62 Van Housen Motors Apr 1962 (FPF)
CM/3/62 Alan Connell May 1962 (FPF)
Who was Van Housen Motors? And where did Jimmy Blumer's car come from?
Allen
#16
Posted 29 April 2006 - 16:30
Helps if you spell it right. Von Housen Motors of Sacramento, CA was and is George Grinzewitsch. His car appears in SCCA racing in 1962 and 1963.Originally posted by Allen Brown
Who was Van Housen Motors?
Allen
#17
Posted 29 April 2006 - 17:17
#18
Posted 29 April 2006 - 17:34
Must have been an earlier model - he raced it in 1960Originally posted by Allen Brown
And where did Jimmy Blumer's car come from?
#19
Posted 29 April 2006 - 17:54
http://www.tamsoldra...tml#JackBrabham
And here's George Grinzewitsch in his 2-liter Cooper in 1961. He raced the car with Von Housen Motors sponsorship into 1963. In 1964 Bart Martin raced this car very successfully in Northern California with Chevy power as the "Grizzly Torque Special".
http://www.tamsoldra.....Other Coopers
Tam McPartland
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#20
Posted 29 April 2006 - 21:33
#21
Posted 29 April 2006 - 21:54
Chuck
#22
Posted 29 April 2006 - 23:46
Tam McPartland
#23
Posted 30 April 2006 - 10:38
Let's say W. Mitchell was Bill Mitchell of VP of design at GM. He may have ordered this car for development. They were working a couple of mid-engined projects, the Monza GT which was corvair based and the Grand Sport II which was a mid engined corvette prototype. CM/2/63 could have been used to analyze the competition or for testing ideas for these cars.
http://www.chaparralcars.com/2e.php (scroll down to the section on the Monza GT)
http://corvetteactio...types/gs2b.html
But also note that in both cases the use of a space frame was scrapped. The GSII had an aluminum monocoque.
What do you guys think?
Chuck
#24
Posted 01 May 2006 - 08:15
The second picture that you posted (3 cars on the start line) was actually taken at Nassau It was the start of the 5 lap Texas Classic race , 7th December 1963.
Terry
#25
Posted 01 May 2006 - 11:12
Chuck
#26
Posted 01 May 2006 - 16:38
#27
Posted 01 May 2006 - 16:58
Any chassis numbers associated with those cars?
#28
Posted 03 May 2006 - 11:50
#29
Posted 03 May 2006 - 19:09
Hi TamOriginally posted by tam999
Here's a look at Jack Brabham winning the 1961 L.A. Times GP in the de-finned Hap Sharp Cooper:
http://www.tamsoldra...tml#JackBrabham
And here's George Grinzewitsch in his 2-liter Cooper in 1961. He raced the car with Von Housen Motors sponsorship into 1963. In 1964 Bart Martin raced this car very successfully in Northern California with Chevy power as the "Grizzly Torque Special".
http://www.tamsoldra.....Other Coopers
Tam McPartland
I'm most interested to see mention of the "Grizzly Torque Special" in 1964. In 1966 and 1967, a "Grizzly Torque Special" appeared in formula racing driven by Bub Ehrlich and with Ford V8 power. It ran under the then brand new 3-litre Formula A category. Gary Horstkorta makes reference to it running in 1965 at Vaca Valley in Northern California so it's in the same region as Bart Martin's car. Could this possibly be the same car?
Allen
#30
Posted 04 May 2006 - 04:40
I don't remember a single-seater "Grizzly Torque". Bart Martin campaigned a front-engined Chevy Special in 1963 under that name, then in 1964 moved to the ex-Grinzewitsch Cooper. I have a photo of the Cooper in "Grizzly Torque" livery (with fins added!) but it's not on my website and I'll have to rummage through my archives to find it.
In 1965 Martin raced a Ford powered Brabham, and lost his life in the car during the event held on the parking lot of San Francisco's Candlestick Park. IIRC, the crash was caused by a structural failure. I don't know if this car was sponsored by "Grizzly Torque".
Tam
#31
Posted 04 May 2006 - 13:08
#32
Posted 05 May 2006 - 11:49
I've email Irv Dickson about the Grizzly Torque Specials and he remembers building the 'A' car. I'll let you know what I discover.
Allen
#33
Posted 09 May 2006 - 07:06
#34
Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:23
Regarding Pre-T61M cars with V8 swaps I think I will focus on the Cunningham Cooper-Buick, Roger Ward's (leaf sprung) Cooper because Bob McKee did the swap, and the Zerex Special after V8 swap.
Does that sound like a good list to you guys or are there other significant ones? What car is the Bib Stillwell car?
Thanks, Chuck
#35
Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:45
I'm away from my records at the moment, but Ray Bell may be able to respond before I do
#36
Posted 10 May 2006 - 08:59
Other than a bit of detail about the engine swap. Stillwell bought a Scarab V8 from the Intercontinental car that raced at Sandown (pics are posted on a thread here... a search using 'scarab' and 'ellacott'will find them).
I think it was significant in that it was the first US-V8 powered sports car of any real significance to run in the sixties here. In doing that, it more or less paved the way to the Elfin 400s and Matichs etc that were to dominate our lap records for years.
#37
Posted 10 May 2006 - 10:37
I wasn't sure of the date the V8 went in, without checkingOriginally posted by Ray Bell
You've said it all, have you not, David?
#38
Posted 11 May 2006 - 13:51
And I don't think there's anywhere I can check! Unless there's a Sports Car World among my measly collection from the right era.
But wouldn't we be right in saying that about mid-1963 would be close? Even though late '62 seems more logical (about 8 months after the Scarab ran here), I am clearly recalling seeing the car a couple of times with Climax power. And I only saw it at Warwick Farm... October '62, probably February '63, then it got the V8 and ran elsewhere before appearing at the Farm again. Maybe May '63?
#39
Posted 11 May 2006 - 13:59
In the meantime, didn't the Scarab engine first go into Glass's BRM? That would have been late 1962, which would make the Monaco installation the following year
As I said, I'll check later
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#40
Posted 11 May 2006 - 14:53
So maybe even as late as August '63? In which case my Racing Car News collection will cover the exact timing.
#41
Posted 17 May 2006 - 10:58
W. Mitchell is Wayne Mitchell and my friend talked to him. Wayne was actually ordering the car for a friend who didn't want his competition to know what he was up to. The real owner was Phil Smythe of Winnipeg.
Of course the next question is what happened to it then? Anyone recognize that name? I have not found him in any race results yet.
Thanks, Chuck
#42
Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:33
Originally posted by Allen Brown right at the start of this thread!!
Could that be Wayne Mitchell? Sounds a bit early for him to be driving something so big but it's possible. Wayne drove FCs and FBs in the mid-1960s. He posts on 10 Tenths from time to time so he's easy to ask.
Allen
#43
Posted 18 May 2006 - 05:44
Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada
#44
Posted 18 May 2006 - 18:44
W. Mitchell is Wayne Mitchell and my friend talked to him. Wayne was actually ordering the car for a friend who didn't want his competition to know what he was up to. The real owner was Phil Smythe of Winnipeg.
Of course the next question is what happened to it then? Anyone recognize that name? I have not found him in any race results yet.
I posted what I found about Smyth in the CMSHG files section of the site. I find no connection with Dr. Smyth and a Cooper Monaco. I can only find two race meets in 1964 that included Smyth in his Lotus 23 ... nothing before or after.
http://sports.groups.....0and Gilbert/
There are also some off- topic photos there of the "Calliope" that was being mentioned on the CMSHG.
MGAdams
#45
Posted 18 May 2006 - 18:54
Chuck
#46
Posted 28 September 2006 - 00:34
#47
Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:14
Just one guys opinion of course. I'll keep looking to see if I can figure it out. The rear spoiler is pretty distinctive, maybe that's a clue.
Chuck
#48
Posted 28 September 2006 - 02:27
"CM/2/63 is the only original Monaco chassis that has survived intact. It appeared in Toronto in 1981, stored in a plastic bag -- an untouched, brand new rolling chassis, instruments, gas tanks, oil tank, radiator, McKee transaxle, seats -- ordered from Cooper without body or motor mounts. "
It's like a Cooper Monaco Miracle
Chuck
#49
Posted 28 September 2006 - 10:20
The nose coachwork on this car reminds me somewhat of a Chevette or McKee. I seem to recall seeing a pix of Dan Gerber driving a car with a very similar appearance. Up here in Canada, Peter Lerch drove a sports racer in...was it 1964 or 65?...with 289 Ford V-8 power, Webers and zoomies with again a very similar appearance on the nose. Seen a pix of it somewhere on the net recently. I never did find out the make and model of Peter's car, however. It was painted in that deep bronze that was in vogue for a while back then.
#50
Posted 28 September 2006 - 10:45
I'd just like to make it absolutely clear that in my Cooper cars book I didn't 'have' Monaco chassis numbers attributed to anybody. The surviving Cooper works chassis book was what 'had' those serial numbers attributed to those initial customers.
I thought at the time, and I still do, that the 1961-64 period Monacos were great looking bits of kit, although at the time (and since) I have also regarded them as being pretty agricultural. Having just had close-up involvement with the ex-Atkins/Roy Salvadori Monaco-Maserati V8 I can confirm that the only chassis serial it appears to carry is actually the Maserati number '151-010', relating to the engine rather than the original frame. This is simply because, like so many old, tried and trusted Cooper Car Co customers, Tommy would have bought merely a kit of parts from the Surbiton factory, which his own people then assembled into a running and raceable car.
Great piece of ongoing work though Chuck, Allen, everybody. It is important too.
DCN