10099 replies to this topic

[plannerpower]

Some oddments from the same 1964 Bathurst meeting;

Matich (Lotus 19);




This slide has no notation; Leo G in the 23 I presume (on the victory lap);




Mick Nedelko again;




And, for the coda, the tourers; a gaggle of them in the Esses;




P (Peter?) Taylor (Mini);




Ron Clarke (Mini) & Digby Cooke (Simca);




That great man, Bruce McPhee;




And I've just found another good one of Glyn Scott;




It's interesting to see how close we could get to the action in those days.

For the old-time photographers, the shots were taken with a Praktica IV (the old non-return-mirror one). The Glyn Scott ones were probably taken with the standard 50 mm lens; the others would have been taken with my home-made telephoto lens, a Schneider Radionar 105 mm salvaged from an old 6 X 9 bellows camera and grafted onto the Praktica with a home-made brass tube mount. I was a teenager and did what I could.

The film would have been either Kodachrome or, perhaps, Ektachrome.

The scans have been slightly-cropped to remove the narrow black line that the scanner leaves on one edge; within the limits of definition they could be cropped more-tightly.

I'm fond of saying that there was never a photo taken that couldn't be improved by a good hard cropping.

[David Shaw]

It was a victory lap for Geoghegan, the last run for the car before it went to Cusack. My race report lists it as being Ian driving?? Apparently Matich had a stone jam in the throttle linkages and he hit a bank damaging the suspension.

Charlie Smith's good debut in Mildren's BT6 ended when he had a tyre blowout and he hit the fence at McPhillamy.

[plannerpower]

I wasn't sure whether it was Leo or Ian; I took a chance on Leo but I'm happy to have the record corrected.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by kevinbartlett
[B]

Try this Mt Panorama shot for no fence

hmmmn, hard choice Ray, the cars or the freefall drop, were these cars fitted with 'chutes It makes you realise the safety standards of today and the very real dangers drivers faced then, without any safety net whatsoever.

This is a superb thread, thanks for photos guys, I used to see some in MN weekly, but these are just great


Sterling U.K.

[David Shaw]

These are great photos, but I admit to being surprised that Mildren's BT6 was green. When did Mildren adopt his usual yellow, Ray?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by plannerpower
Some oddments from the same 1964 Bathurst meeting;


Ron Clarke (Mini) & Digby Cooke (Simca);





It's interesting to see how close we could get to the action in those days.

Superb photos, I was unaware that my uncle's old Aronde was put to such use!!! It looks like it is giving the Mini a fair chase as well!

Sterling U.K.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by David Shaw
These are great photos, but I admit to being surprised that Mildren's BT6 was green. When did Mildren adopt his usual yellow, Ray?

Is this the guy that made the Mildren Waggot (IIRC that Frank Gardner drove in one Tasman series?) Any pictures? That was a nice looking car.


Sterling U.K.

[John Ellacott]

Bathurst Easter 1969 44 The Mildren Waggott with Max Stewart extricating himself and car 2 Niel Allen Mclaren Cosworth 1600 This photo by John Arkwright.

[Terry Walker]

Stunning photographs, John.

The last pic emphasises that Bathurst isn't called "the mountain" for nothing.

[fines]

Great pics!

[sterling49]

Originally posted by John Ellacott
Bathurst Easter 1969 44 The Mildren Waggott with Max Stewart extricating himself and car 2 Niel Allen Mclaren Cosworth 1600 This photo by John Arkwright.

Superb photo, hard to tell it was 1969 though, a few drastic (and ugly!) tell tale signs........I wonder if it was aerofoil failure that caused the accident?

[bradbury west]

What car is Bruce McPhee driving, a Holden?
Is the Arnold Glass Lotus 27 the Schryver car which appeared at last year's Revival with a twincam?
Roger Lund.
note. I should check McPhee in the Bathurst book, eh Ray?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Is the Arnold Glass Lotus 27 the Schryver car which appeared at last year's Revival with a twincam?

Certainly is. It had a twincam at the Revival beause that's what it always had (as in above photo)

[David Shaw]

Originally posted by sterling49
Superb photo, hard to tell it was 1969 though, a few drastic (and ugly!) tell tale signs........I wonder if it was aerofoil failure that caused the accident?

Apparently this incident occurred on the first lap when Stewart misjudged John Harvey's braking in front of him, locked up his wheels and hit the fence. Allen was following too close to avoid Stewart, and this incident took out Glyn Scott as well who was next in line behind Allen.

A second successive Bathurst 100 decimated before it really began, although none of those from this incident had a chance of threatening Black Jack in a rare Gold Star appearance.

[Wilyman]

Originally posted by sterling49


Superb photos, I was unaware that my uncle's old Aronde was put to such use!!! It looks like it is giving the Mini a fair chase as well!

Sterling U.K.

Sterling,
Digby Cooke obviously knew how to get the best out of the Simca. That would be to keep the power? on and leave the brakes alone.
Running close to the Mini he would be safe in the knowledge that the driver wouldn't be "throwing out the pick" like some of the other more powerful barges had to do.

A little dab of the brakes at the bottom of Con-Rod would have sufficed for the Simca.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Wilyman


Sterling,
Digby Cooke obviously knew how to get the best out of the Simca. That would be to keep the power? on and leave the brakes alone.
Running close to the Mini he would be safe in the knowledge that the driver wouldn't be "throwing out the pick" like some of the other more powerful barges had to do.

A little dab of the brakes at the bottom of Con-Rod would have sufficed for the Simca.

and the engines in both were pretty damn similar as well ...is the Aronde as heavy as it looks?

Now on to the next question:

1956 AGP Albert Park (run anticlockwise?).....an entrant was R. Star(r?) in a Doretti...a Dentist..and a DNF.

Does anyone have any pictures of this car maybe in the same frame as a 250F??

[David Shaw]

No mention in the AGP book of R. Star or a Doretti for 1956. The Albert Park track always ran anti-clockwise in its first guise.

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by sterling49


hmmmn, hard choice Ray, the cars or the freefall drop, were these cars fitted with 'chutes It makes you realise the safety standards of today and the very real dangers drivers faced then, without any safety net whatsoever.

This is a superb thread, thanks for photos guys, I used to see some in MN weekly, but these are just great


Sterling U.K.

Actually that would be the safest part of the track even in those days. It is just after the cutting which is an uphill almost hairpin corner with a steep climb after the corner. If you were to spin in the corner you would never make it as far as the parked cars or the quarry.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by David Shaw
No mention in the AGP book of R. Star or a Doretti for 1956. The Albert Park track always ran anti-clockwise in its first guise.

Thanks David...hmmm...the plot thickens...was there a qualifying activity? were there "support" races??

[Catalina Park]

I have Les Cosh as the driver of a Dorretti in 56.
The weekend before the GP had the TT.

[David Shaw]

That's interesting to know, as I'm trying to compile data on the ATT prior to the ASCC in 1969 to have as an addition to my website.

[ken devine]

I just looked up the AMS January 1957 it had the support race writeups and there was no Dorretti listed
as a starter in either Sports car race. there are great photos in the magazine if anybody has any we would
love to see them posted.

[Catalina Park]

I don't have much. I have the Barry Green Albert Park book but it is hardly a full account. It lists some drivers and gives some results but contains no complete lists.

[David Shaw]

Actually, Mick may be right. I found a website on Triumph in Australia;
http://home.vicnet.n...vic/tr3hist.htm
which mentions the following on the 5th last paragraph of the page:

Finally, one of the major motoring events of 1956 was the Australian Grand Prix and Tourist Trophy Meeting conducted at the Albert Park Circuit, November 28 and December 2, 1956. This meeting was held under the International Sporting code of the Federation Internationale d'Automobile, the National Competition Rules of the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport (CAMS) and the Light Car Club of Australia.

The Australian Tourist Trophy was run on the first race day over 32 laps (100 miles) and was a scratch race for sports cars. Another feature was that it was a Le Mans type start where drivers sprinted to their cars. Two TR2?s were entered by Gavin Baillieu (Car No 26) and Andy Baker (Car No 27). The Programme for that particular event also showed a rare Swallow Doretti entered by R. Starr. Stirling Moss won this event in a Maserati 300S.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by David Shaw
Actually, Mick may be right. I found a website on Triumph in Australia;
http://home.vicnet.n...vic/tr3hist.htm
which mentions the following on the 5th last paragraph of the page:

Finally, one of the major motoring events of 1956 was the Australian Grand Prix and Tourist Trophy Meeting conducted at the Albert Park Circuit, November 28 and December 2, 1956. This meeting was held under the International Sporting code of the Federation Internationale d'Automobile, the National Competition Rules of the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport (CAMS) and the Light Car Club of Australia.

The Australian Tourist Trophy was run on the first race day over 32 laps (100 miles) and was a scratch race for sports cars. Another feature was that it was a Le Mans type start where drivers sprinted to their cars. Two TR2?s were entered by Gavin Baillieu (Car No 26) and Andy Baker (Car No 27). The Programme for that particular event also showed a rare Swallow Doretti entered by R. Starr. Stirling Moss won this event in a Maserati 300S.

Boy George, I think David has it....I should be looking at Argus Trophy entrants...thanks to all for the investigative work thus far.

MARCH 27, 1955 - Doug Whiteford (Talbot) wins the Argus Trophy race at Albert Park in Australia

1956 - Reg Hunt (Maserati 250F) wins the 150-mile Argus Trophy at Albert Park in Australia

[Catalina Park]

There was an Argus Trophy race and an Argus Cup race at the March meeting. The trophy was for "Racing Cars" and the cup was for Sports Cars. The Dorretti does not appear in the lap chart for the "Cup"

At the Nov/Dec meeting there were also Argus Cup and Argus Trophy races, The Cup was a handicap for Racing Cars and the Trophy was for Racing Cars.
I would bet that the Dorretti run in the November/December meeting and raced in the "Australian Tourist Trophy" and not the "Argus" races.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by plannerpower

Des Leonard's Valiant?

It should have blown the Holdens into the weeds on the run up the mountain!

[Team Result]

Not a Studebaker Lark?

[Ray Bell]

No, that's an early Valiant...

I also wonder about that Jag back there. Is that John Suttor? I suspect it is.

Unanswered from earlier:

Originally posted by David Shaw
These are great photos, but I admit to being surprised that Mildren's BT6 was green. When did Mildren adopt his usual yellow, Ray?

Green had been Mildren's colour in the Cooper days... the Lotus 23 and this Brabham continued in green, but the following cars, starting with the Mildren Maserati and the 2.5 Brabham, were all yellow. Virtually all his Alfa production car entries were white, however, including the GTZ, but the TZ2 was yellow.

Originally asked by Sterling 49
Is this the guy that made the Mildren Waggot (IIRC that Frank Gardner drove in one Tasman series?) Any pictures?

There were two cars known as 'Mildren Waggotts'... the first was the car pictured above, IIRC, when it was re-engined. It's actually a Rennmax, which is a Bob Britton-made replica of a Brabham.

Alec Mildren commissioned this car and the Rennmax-built stretched Lotus 23 that was called the Mildren Maserati, and the later 'Yellow Submarine' Mildren Alfa/Mildren Waggott was built in England. My recollection is that it was a Len Terry design, but I may well be getting confused with my designers here. Frank Gardner, it seems to me, had a lot to do with its construction.

It's an interesting car in that it worked extremely well for a totally 'orphan' design and its survival to today is a tribute to its strength and the respect people have held for the car since new. KB might well give more details.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

KB might well give more details.

The car that Frank drove was very pretty from memory, the details from KB, would that be Kevin Bartlett, that I read about so avidly whilst the GP squad were down under on their hols at the Tasman series?

i always remember reading about the Annual Cricket matches that were held at Chris Amon's parents house, could you imagine that happening today Half of the drivers would not appear, and those that did, would not be on speaking terms with any of the others

Thanks for your informative answers Ray, I would love to have enough holiday available to travel down under, especially as my daughter is currently in Sydney. Oh well... :

[David Shaw]

Actually, pretty is one word that I wouldn't use to describe the Yellow Sub. Effective yes, but not particularly pretty to me. Apparently it was designed to handle very well without wings.

[Gordon Graham]

The Yellow Submarine might have been attributed to Len Bailey, not Len Terry.

[David McKinney]

...and was of course built to run with the V8 Alfa Romeo engine, before the Waggott went in

[BT 35-8]

..... and was built by Alan Mann Racing in the U.K.

[bradbury west]

I wonder how significant the differences in engine weights were.
Roger Lund

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by sterling49
.....Thanks for your informative answers Ray, I would love to have enough holiday available to travel down under, especially as my daughter is currently in Sydney. Oh well... :

Just e.mail me her phone number and I'll show her around instead...

Yes, KB is Kevin Bartlett, who posted a pic or three on this thread over the past couple of weeks. And I think the car was pretty.

The Alfa engine had to be a little heavier than the Waggott. I would say 50-60lbs would not be out of the question, as there was only half as much cylinder head, half as many pistons and rods, half as many exhaust pipes etc.

[kevinbartlett]

Originally posted by Ray Bell




The Alfa engine had to be a little heavier than the Waggott. I would say 50-60lbs would not be out of the question, as there was only half as much cylinder head, half as many pistons and rods, half as many exhaust pipes etc.

Time I piped in I think. (By the way, the coloured shot was from Speed on Tweed 07 courtesy of Peter Finlay)

Ray, you weren't far off the mark with the weight. My memory tells me the Alfa around 350 lbs and Waggott about 230 lbs. usable power range was quite different between the two with the Alfa workable between 4500 rpm and 8000 rpm, Waggott 6800rpm to around 8750 rpm. Not perfectly accurate as I work from memory, but around that kind of difference.

The driving difference was the main change, as the power weight felt little different behind the wheel, mainly due I suppose to the fact full throttle was used much much sooner with the 4 cyl 2ooo cc.

The turn in changed to a marked degree with the lighter power plant having less moment of inertia allowing the car to be literally flung into a turn. As it happens I am the only driver of that car to experience both configurations.

Len Bailey WAS the designer of the tub which flexed a little at the rear with the Alfa torque, less so when the Waggott went in. With the suspension being a Ron Tauranac adaption.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by David Shaw
Actually, pretty is one word that I wouldn't use to describe the Yellow Sub. Effective yes, but not particularly pretty to me. Apparently it was designed to handle very well without wings.

We have to agree to disagree, having just seen the photos posted by KB, I stand by my opinion, I remembered it as pretty and stand by my words, the nose reminds me of a BT28/30, which I always thought was one of Brabhams finest

[David Shaw]

Thanks for posting those great photos KB, especially the one from rarely seen Macau. Does the new paint look a bit too orange, or is that just me?

I too am quite happy to stand by my opinion ;) , I find the Mono's lines nowhere near as appealing as its predecessor, the BT23D, although it is obvious that there was starting to be a major shift in design by 1968.

[kevinbartlett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Shaw
[B]Thanks for posting those great photos KB, especially the one from rarely seen Macau. Does the new paint look a bit too orange, or is that just me?

David, The Yellow hue may well be a little different, might well have been the camera as I'm fairly sure the repaint by Lionel was correct as could be, given many years had passed and paint types and pigments along with that.

The original colour was from a formula that the Department of Civil Aviation used on the airport's ground support vehicles throughout Australia in the '50s and '60s.

I privately think the teams colours were Yellow so that Alec could pick out his cars easier during a race. Although the Alfa saloons were always white.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by David Shaw
predecessor, the BT23D, although it is obvious that there was starting to be a major shift in design by 1968.

Agreed, the BT21/23 were very pretty, it's good to be able to disagree on an adult forum, can you imagine this on any number of others

[David Shaw]

No I can't!

[Leo D]

Wasn't there some connection between the Brian Foley Alfa Sports Sedan, and the Alec Mildren Alfa V8?.... or is my memory playing tricks again :

And speaking of the Alec Mildren F5000, which I know we weren't..... Who built that, and where did it end up?

[Ray Bell]

Yes, he Foley Alfa got the Alfa V8 engine...

Jack Wortmeyer bought the Mildren Chev.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Leo D
And speaking of the Alec Mildren F5000, which I know we weren't..... Who built that?

It was built at the Palliser factory in England by Frank Gardner and Len Bailey (and raced originally as the Franklen-Palliser)

[kevinbartlett]

Originally posted by David McKinney

It was built at the Palliser factory in England by Frank Gardner and Len Bailey (and raced originally as the Franklen-Palliser)

Correct, I talked recently to Frank about that very car and like me very loath to say anything good about it. Good thing the pics in B&W colour is wasted on it.

[John Ellacott]

Brabham BT23D Alfa V8 Frank Gardner , Warwick Farm Tasman race February 1968.
Sorry Kevin I do not have a photo of you in the car.

[Ray Bell]

She was a smokey old thing in that race!

It was obvious in the telecast that this engine had done plenty of service in NZ...

[Leo D]

Without harping on the Mildren Chev, that really was the last hurrah for Alec Mildrens team wasn't it? ..... KB going on to run the ex Niel Allen McLaren, Max continuing on in the other Mildren, until he went into the Elfin MR5.... The "Submarine" went to Bob Muir in that period didn't it?

In regards to the Mildren F5000 did it ever run again? Is it still actually in existance?

I was interested in the collapsed wing on Max Stewarts car in John's Niel Allen/Max Stewart picture on top of the mountain..... The only wing collapse I ever remember happening here (Australia) was on Graham Hills Lotus 49 at Lakeside.... or am I wide of the mark again?

[David Shaw]

I believe the wing collapsed after hitting the armco, avoiding John Harvey whose braking had caught Max out on lap 1.