739 replies to this topic

[RobertC]

As I have mentioned on some other threads I am slowly scanning in colour slides and black & White negatives.

So a few from the start of the 1990 Pirelli Classic Marathon

Stirling Moss, Tony Mason and Roger Clark

scans0663.jpg by Robert Clayson, on Flickr

Paddy Hopkirk

scans0668.jpg by Robert Clayson, on Flickr


scans0671.jpg by Robert Clayson, on Flickr

Bobby Unser

scans0669.jpg by Robert Clayson, on Flickr

Clay Regazzoni / Mady Mantegazzi

scans0673.jpg by Robert Clayson, on Flickr

A few more on flickr.

Robert

[mikeC]

Paddy Hopkirk


Robert

... and an out-of-focus Rob Lyall!

[AAGR]

Becasuse I've only just joined this Forum (thank you for your welcome) , I have come late to many rallying controversies. More than once I have seen Graham Robson (me) quoted as reporting 'wrongly'. In almost every case that was because of the cloning which went on at that time, and the multi-use of the same registration on more than one car.

Yup, you've guessed it, I have a massive (Definitive ? I hope so) history of individual 'works' Escorts on the way, where - after all these years - those old-time mysteries have been thoroughly sorted out, and the myths punctured.

The number of times new cars appreared with old numbers, or even vice versa, are legion. There were often good licencing reasons for this.

Another example - why was an RS2000 intended for Ari Vatanen to use in the 1976 Tour of Britain photographed (by Ford) the week
before the event with right-hand-drive, but on the event itself it was left-hand-drive ? (And there was no 'photo-shopping technology available at the time ....). Why did the self-same Russell Brookes 'tarmac special' appear with one registration number on the 1979 Circuit of Ireland, and with a different registration number for the rest of the season ?

There's a lot more. Trust me ....

AAGR

[AAGR]

Photo is from '70 Donau 100%, it is from my archives, I scanned from the negative, taken at the 'Vérteskozma' ss.(14km tarmac) in Hungary.
Unfortunately I do not have start-list, only the results of the top 10:

1. Günther Janger – Walter Wessiak A Porsche-911S 5185p.
2. Carl Christian Schindler – Gustav Hruschka A Porsche-914-6 5383p.
3. Nigel Hollier – Phil Short GB Alpine-Renault 5573p.
4. Leopold Bosch – Gerald Mallat A VW-Beetle-1500
5. Gernot Fischer – Klaus Rader A VW-Beetle-1500
6. Walter Lux – Hans Schiebert A VW-Beetle-1500
7. Walter Pöltinger – Hans Hartinger A Porsche-914-6
8. Titus Maier Kaibic – Werner Pucher A Ford-Escort-TC
9. Achim Warmbold - Klapproth D Opel-Kadett
10. Attila Ferjáncz – Jenő Zsembery H Renault-8-Gordini 6220p.

I have no idea what happened with Tony Fall on the rallye, he was the 3rd fastest on the last special-stage in Romania.


"bible"...hmmm...most of the races behind the 'Iron-Curtain' are poorly published till today...



+ many of the photos are scanned from the original 6cm x 6cm b&w negs and from the original colour-slides.

Some of the pics are from this author >

http://www.mcklein-i...amp;idb_page=4#

http://www.mcklein-i...amp;idb_page=3#


Why not ?

Quie right. When FEV7H was on loan to Ford-France/Piot for 1970, I/Boreham took a decision not to include it in the listings for 'The Works Escorts' as it was separately prepared in France. See also my thread entry above, dated 3 December.

AAGR

Edited by AAGR, 03 December 2011 - 22:38.

[elansprint72]

Becasuse I've only just joined this Forum (thank you for your welcome) , I have come late to many rallying controversies. More than once I have seen Graham Robson (me) quoted as reporting 'wrongly'. In almost every case that was because of the cloning which went on at that time, and the multi-use of the same registration on more than one car.

Yup, you've guessed it, I have a massive (Definitive ? I hope so) history of individual 'works' Escorts on the way, where - after all these years - those old-time mysteries have been thoroughly sorted out, and the myths punctured.

The number of times new cars appreared with old numbers, or even vice versa, are legion. There were often good licencing reasons for this.

Another example - why was an RS2000 intended for Ari Vatanen to use in the 1976 Tour of Britain photographed (by Ford) the week
before the event with right-hand-drive, but on the event itself it was left-hand-drive ? (And there was no 'photo-shopping technology available at the time ....). Why did the self-same Russell Brookes 'tarmac special' appear with one registration number on the 1979 Circuit of Ireland, and with a different registration number for the rest of the season ?

There's a lot more. Trust me ....

AAGR

Graham.
Welcome on board. As you may have noticed, we are sailing on a ship of fools; and long may it continue.
I have no doubt that you will find some old muckers here.
Look forward to seeing more of your stuff.

[cheapracer]

Becasuse I've only just joined this Forum (thank you for your welcome) , I have come late to many rallying controversies. More than once I have seen Graham Robson (me) quoted as reporting 'wrongly'.



Another example - why was an RS2000 intended for Ari Vatanen to use in the 1976 Tour of Britain photographed (by Ford) the week before the event with right-hand-drive, but on the event itself it was left-hand-drive ? (And there was no 'photo-shopping technology available at the time ....).

Hi and welcome Graham, read a few of your books in Australia, enjoyable and don't worry about complaints from people who have never done anything themselves.

Sure, Photo-shopping wasn't around but, even though it may not be the case, easy enough to flip a negative.


Amphicar, great shots Mate, thanks!

Edited by cheapracer, 04 December 2011 - 03:58.

[AAGR]

[quote name='cheapracer' date='Dec 4 2011, 03:56' post='5435978']
Hi and welcome Graham, read a few of your books in Australia, enjoyable and don't worry about complaints from people who have never done anything themselves.

Sure, Photo-shopping wasn't around but, even though it may not be the case, easy enough to flip a negative.



Not when there are two other cars in shot in the earlier pose, and three registration numbers clearly visible, plus lots of sponsorship livery ....

No question, then, that the steering wheel changed sides.

AAGR

Edited by AAGR, 04 December 2011 - 18:21.

[275 GTB-4]

Hi and welcome Graham, read a few of your books in Australia, enjoyable and don't worry about complaints from people who have never done anything themselves.

Sure, Photo-shopping wasn't around but, even though it may not be the case, easy enough to flip a negative.

Not when there are two other cars in shot in the earlier pose, and three registration numbers clearly visible, plus lots of sponsorship livery ....

No question, then, that the steering wheel changed sides.

AAGR

Welcome AAGR, there are several reasons why R or L hand drive may have been configured....Driver preference is one, and the suitability to the course at hand is another (the Recce report said lots of fast left handers etc...and please don't bang on about Recces not being allowed ;-)

Edited by 275 GTB-4, 24 November 2012 - 21:14.

[RS2000]

BHRC Round 1 Mid Wales Stages
Photos from scrutineering this afternoon:
=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/1002188qs.jpg/]
=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/1002186h.jpg/]
=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/1002184q.jpg/]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[No Ford Escorts were photographed in the making of this post]

[RS2000]

Having got ImageShack to work, albeit with wrong photo alignment, it has now failed...

[RS2000]

Anglia, with Allardette plate on inner wing

=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/1002189n.jpg/]

[RS2000]

Lotus Cortina



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[RS2000]

Cortina GT

[RS2000]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Oh, alright, and an Escort, since they made up most of the field

[droopsnoot]

On the way to the Chester start of the Lombard RAC in 1981:



I wonder if the guy in the Fiesta is contemplating "having a go".

A few from the start line on the same year:







And a bit more up to date, some from the Tour of Cheshire, yesterday:

[RS2000]

On the way to the Chester start of the Lombard RAC in 1981:
I wonder if the guy in the Fiesta is contemplating "having a go".

That was becoming quite a problem. The next year it was at Chester we were hounded all the way in from the final stage at Clocaenog/Ruthin service by 4 boy racers in an 1100 Escort pretending they were our chase car and driving like idiots.

That Chester start queue in the busy shopping street presented a few laughs too. We had a bag full of badges to hand out and I told the small child to whom I passed a dozen or so out of the window that the surplus were to be passed on to the row of children either side of him. Looking in the mirror we saw him pinning every badge on to himself...

[cote d'azur]

Just been pointed towards this thread. I have a bunch of pictures that relate, not the least of which is one of Timo and Tony (Fall) on cancelled RAC "stage" which was referred to early on in the thread. When I get my act together I will post some on here. Need to look thru all the pages to see what else has been covered. Have just noticed a couple from the 63 Yorkshire rally in the early pages. I am in the process of writing two more Memory Lanes books on the Motoring News Championship (covering the start in 1961 through to 1969) and this rally was part of that series. Photographs for the early years (indeed for many of the years I am covering as MN themselves rarely sent out a staff photographer and so most of the published pictures were "private" ones from all kinds of sources) are very hard to come by, so if anybody has any pictures I would love to hear about them. There will be two books with the split at the end of 1965.

Peter Robinson
Photohistoric.com

Edited by cote d'azur, 24 November 2012 - 10:29.

[cote d'azur]

Here is the Makinen/Fall Mini at the Camberley stage of cancelled RAC. I thought I knew exactly where this was but on a recent visit realised I was wrong!! Has anybody got a map ref for the stage?





Peter Robinson
Photohistoric.com
[/quote]

[RS2000]

The period photos Peter has are exactly what this thread was created for! Good news he's here.
Even better news is that of books on the earlier MN years - clearly a glutton for punishment and good that "never again" after the last ones has not prevailed.

I don't know the location of the 67 "stage" - since we knew nothing of it at the time, despite being at the Excellsior, Heathrow. Understandable against the background of F&M. The 66 stage went in at about 863666 and came out at about 854655. When used again (last stage in 70? - the one that cost Alpine the world championship) I thjink it was further south, in the grounds of the RMC.

The Express and Star has its own history site now, which has been an education, since I live at a location that was on the 1964 route:
http://www.wssccrall...ect-a-year.html
The site has photos and the paper that sponsored it still exists (but as part of a regional newspaper conglomerate, so not sure about archives).

Edited by RS2000, 24 November 2012 - 14:03.

[RS2000]

There's a thread on here about "named" bends which recently had a well known rally corner mentioned. The MN Express and Star Rally in 64 had one early on that might have gained such notoriety if the section had remained available for top level rallies. (House building did for that later that same year it seems).

http://www.wssccrall...march-1964.html
mentions those that fell foul of one particular tree. A then little-known guy named Roger Clark was obviously more circumspect on the section, hit nothing and dropped 3 minutes. Rallying didn't gain a "Seigle-Morris,Stone,Simister,Robson,Grange,Brown, Fidler,Hopwood's bend" but 48 years on the scars remain. Wonder if AAGR on here recalls it?
=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/1001732vq.jpg/]

[cote d'azur]

Here is a very bad photograph taken with what could have been a plastic Kodak camera grabbed from the car boot of "a rally" in mid 60s - probably 66 and probably taken in Speech House. Anybody got any ideas as to who, what and where?






Peter
Photohistoric.com

[voxadd]

Here is a very bad photograph taken with what could have been a plastic Kodak camera grabbed from the car boot of "a rally" in mid 60s - probably 66 and probably taken in Speech House. Anybody got any ideas as to who, what and where?






Peter
Photohistoric.com

Have we any idea of the registration number? The car is a Vauxhall FB VX4/90. I don't recognise the car from the ones that I know rallied at the time, but the plate may give an answer.

[RS2000]

Dean rally historian "aitchman" is on the case and has pointed out it looks a (dusty) summer event (which would make it the Gulf, as no other Dean rallies were summer events).
That does not fit with the entry lists of all 4 Gulfs I have. However, in the 65 Gulf Programme, No.63 was Ted Moorat in a Cortina GT with no co-driver listed. He was an Army Major and I vaguely recall a BAMA team of VX4/90s on the Monte around then. It's not entirely inconceivable that he switched to one of those cars after the entry was published. I am aware of other changes to the Gulf 65 Programme - Harry Skelton is listed in a Rapier but was later photographed in an Imp. John Sprinzel is listed with Peter Marshal as co-driver but Atis Krauklis actually co-drove. Roger Clark is listed as No.6 but ran as No.64.
No.63 on the 66 Gulf was Rod and Ian Cooper, who I think used a VX4/90 on another event some time before, but I have a photo of them in their regular Supersport Cortina GT, COY410D, that is definitely the 66 Gulf because other cars can be identified too.

Edited by RS2000, 25 November 2012 - 22:14.

[Pete Stowe]

Here is the Makinen/Fall Mini at the Camberley stage of cancelled RAC. I thought I knew exactly where this was but on a recent visit realised I was wrong!! Has anybody got a map ref for the stage?

Peter Robinson
Photohistoric.com

From the Autocar (16 November 1967) Rally preview:
Stage 1 Camberley, Entry 169/889 ½ 627 ½ , Exit 169/867 ½ 626 ½ , Length 4.5 miles.

[cote d'azur]

From the Autocar (16 November 1967) Rally preview:
Stage 1 Camberley, Entry 169/889 ½ 627 ½ , Exit 169/867 ½ 626 ½ , Length 4.5 miles.

Thank you for that. I still have the original map with these two refs marked on it (but was not sure which rally they referred to) but when I was there earlier in the year of course I did not have it in the car! My guesswork on the day was pretty much correct but given passage of time did not find the spots I was looking for. When it stops raining (!) I must give it another try.

Peter
www.photohistoric.com

[RS2000]

While I think of it and that excellent photo of GRX311D is still in mind, was the Hopkirk car OBL46F? (a small photo on your site was the only inconclusive evidence the Mini Cooper Register had when it was discussed fairly recently). Fall's RAC car (45F? 48F?) was presumably not at Camberley.

Re the Vauxhall, does anyone have the Gulf 65 entry list from MN ("Milan Fistonic"?!). It may be a later version than the official programme that has Moorat at 63 in a Cortina. He might, like Roger Clark, have knackered his own car on the Scottish a few weeks earlier but in his case changed cars.

[BRG]

Thank you for that. I still have the original map with these two refs marked on it (but was not sure which rally they referred to) but when I was there earlier in the year of course I did not have it in the car! My guesswork on the day was pretty much correct but given passage of time did not find the spots I was looking for. When it stops raining (!) I must give it another try.

Peter
www.photohistoric.com

That's Olddean Common which we used to know it as Barossa on local rallies. 1967 was before I discovered rallying, so I have only a sketchy idea of what was happening then, even though it is in my local area. I had assumed that the RAC used the forestry land (Warren Heath, Yateley) that year, whereas this Camberley stage is military land. Did they use other stages in the area that year?

[aitchman]

Summer months confirmed by Foxgloves in foreground.

Dean rally historian "aitchman" is on the case and has pointed out it looks a (dusty) summer event (which would make it the Gulf, as no other Dean rallies were summer events).
That does not fit with the entry lists of all 4 Gulfs I have. However, in the 65 Gulf Programme, No.63 was Ted Moorat in a Cortina GT with no co-driver listed. He was an Army Major and I vaguely recall a BAMA team of VX4/90s on the Monte around then. It's not entirely inconceivable that he switched to one of those cars after the entry was published. I am aware of other changes to the Gulf 65 Programme - Harry Skelton is listed in a Rapier but was later photographed in an Imp. John Sprinzel is listed with Peter Marshal as co-driver but Atis Krauklis actually co-drove. Roger Clark is listed as No.6 but ran as No.64.
No.63 on the 66 Gulf was Rod and Ian Cooper, who I think used a VX4/90 on another event some time before, but I have a photo of them in their regular Supersport Cortina GT, COY410D, that is definitely the 66 Gulf because other cars can be identified too.

[RS2000]

I've still got half a foxglove in bloom in my garden!
The 67 Gulf rally plates were a sort of oval shape. The 68 Gulf plates were oblong but look less deep than the oblong in the photo. That would make it 65 or 66, both of which seem to have plates the right size/shape. Since my entry lists for those years are the printed programmes, we need some kind sole to check the Motoring News preview editions, that are likely to have later entry lists - but is it No.53 or 63?

Edited by RS2000, 30 November 2012 - 21:57.

[Fred Gallagher]

A kind "sole" from Ecurie Cod Fillet I suppose......

[RS2000]

Nah, just the one (sole) person...

[275 GTB-4]

Was this the only time a big Healey was slated to appear in competition at International level with Minilites?
Roger Lund

and wasn't it part of further mods to the rear ends because early outings had resulted in stripped hubs?

[RS2000]

A kind "sole" from Ecurie Cod Fillet I suppose......

I'd often wondered why ECF members wore wide baggy trousers.

Now realise it's just the required uniform, as they're all fans of "Northern Sole".




"I'm on my way...." (in the immortal words of Dean Parrish)

Edited by RS2000, 01 December 2012 - 15:14.

[h4887]

"I'm on my way...." (in the immortal words of Dean Parrish)

Who he?

[Paul Hurdsfield]

A brilliant Northern Soul singer

Dean Parrish

And talking about Ecurie Cod Fillet. I regularly drive past one of Fidlers chippies in Reddish on my way to my mates

Edited by Paul Hurdsfield, 01 December 2012 - 21:14.

[cote d'azur]

Another picture from the same old roll of film so assume the same rally. This was the Gulf London and shows road side servicing of NSU. Road side vegetation can be analysed to confirm time of year!




During book research I am sure to find a Gulf starters list (as against entry list) which should determine details of Vauxhall picture.

Thanks for interest and input

[Paul Hurdsfield]

A few not very good quality b+w shots of mine from the 1984 RAC Rally, Wycombe forest I think.

[sterling49]

Some nice photos Paul, love the Manta of Russell Brookes

Edited by sterling49, 01 January 2013 - 19:46.

[Paul Hurdsfield]

Thanks Sterling I've just been looking through some old postings and I've posted virtually the same shots in colour a while ago, so these may have been taken by my 13 year (at the time) Son.

[RS2000]

Is the first photo Eriksson? (I think that was the only Mk2 Kadett/Astra on 84 RAC).
They were staying at the same hotel as us in Chester and when they retired they returned in the middle of the night and apparently made so much noise it caused a lot of problems later on for everyone else staying there who were in the rally.

[RS2000]

Wycombe forest I think.

Sorry, only just noticed that bit.
Wykeham? (1 or 2 - was used twice)

[Paul Hurdsfield]

By special request


Both, Wykeham 1 + 2, we arrived late at night, watched the cars go through in the dark, settled down in our sleeping bags on a polythene sheet, then watched them go through again in daylight, we must have been feckin' mad

[sterling49]

Those were the days Paul, four or five days sleeping rough for a few hours in a car full of condensation, with two herbert mates, the sheer joy !

[RS2000]

Meanwhile, back at the mysterious VX4/90....

I should have looked at my own photos of the finish of the 66 Gulf. The fact that it is hiding behind Roy Johnson's Cooper S suggests it was a finisher. (43 finishers?) Not certain it was, since many crews who retired may have returned to the Excellsior.



=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/gulf66rjrh.jpg/]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Regret no flora visble in car park, although there is at the front of the car park, where the broadcast of the start of the 65 RAC was nearly stopped when the bushes behind Raymond Baxter were parted by schoolboys pushing their bikes through them. (Guilty.....)

Edited by RS2000, 15 January 2013 - 20:33.

[RS2000]

OK, I'll say it's Rod and Ian Cooper in the VX4/90 they used prior to the Supersport Cortina GT days. Entered the 66 Gulf in their new Cortina GT (COY410D if it was registered by then) but reverted to their earlier VX4/90 before the start. Photo I saw of COY410D was 67 Gulf, not 66. Whether or not they finished, they would probably have called in at the finish, if the car was mobile, because they were reasonably local. The fact it's parked in number order suggests it's a finisher.

Unless you know better......

[arttidesco]

Definitely in the do not try this at home category two pics of Malcolm Wilson from
the first day of the 1985 RAC Rally, not sure exactly where the pics were taken



but I seem to remember it was around mid day ish and that I was not in an approved spectating area.
In the light of what happened the following year and in hindsight a highly foolish thing to have done.



Does anyone remember who Malcom's co driver was on this event ?



Mean time I came across C95 KOG at race retro a couple of years ago, I know C98 KOG was used to
win the Manx Rally but can any one tell me if C95 KOG was a works team registration and if so any
history on it ?

Relevant answers maybe credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

[sterling49]

Nigel Harris if I remember correctly.

[Tim Murray]

Nigel Harris if I remember correctly.

Agreed.

Ralph, I'm pretty sure your first 6R4 shot is Pond, not Wilson. Pond was #10, Wilson #13, and it looks like 10 on the side of the Metro. Also, Wilson had the white Computervision strip at the top of the windscreen while Pond didn't.

[arttidesco]

Agreed.

Ralph, I'm pretty sure your first 6R4 shot is Pond, not Wilson. Pond was #10, Wilson #13, and it looks like 10 on the side of the Metro. Also, Wilson had the white Computervision strip at the top of the windscreen while Pond didn't.

Thanks Sterling49 and Tim, I'd not noticed the stripe missing I thought Ponds car had red/orange flashes on the head lights

[Tim Murray]

How strange. The photos of the car in the MN rally report show it with the blue/green Austin Rover stickers on the headlights, as in your photo.