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1962-1983: the years of fast racing 'mopeds'!


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#601 Arthur

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 20:01

Originally posted by Russell Burrows
Nice aerodynamic fairing.......diffucult to ride?


Hi Russell
No far from difficult to ride as they had good torque and a fairly wide power band.As has been said you could rev them to 16000 if pushed.The 8 speed box was sweet as a nut and never gave any trouble.Changing up just dab dab dab no clutch needed coming down depended on what gear you wanted as you could withdraw clutch once and hook it down up to 3 gears at once.Of interest when the FIM brought out the 6 gear maximum in 1969 for world championship events the Honda was dead easy to convert as all you had to do was withdraw the 1st and 7th pin from the selector barreland put them back for other events where the rule did not apply.Mind you never remember the scrutineers ever counting the gears so I guess some did'nt bother.
The original CR110 engine had one weakness.The drive side main bearing was triangular outercase shape and had no inner race which meant the caged rollers ran direct on the main crankshaft.This coarsed in extreme cases the shaft to break We overcame this by boring out the outer triangular race and fitting a Ransome& Marles bearing with inner race.Only difficulty you had to drill a hole in the outer cage to match up with the hole in the bored out cage as the bearings have a pressurised oil feed. But it worked well.

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#602 Herr Wankel

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 20:22

Originally posted by Arthur



Sorry Herr only just read your message.Yes Alf Briggs who incidently passed away last year,was the man in charge.He treated me well and provided me plenty of free parts to keep my machine in peak condition during 1970 when I was challenging Frank Whiteway on the Susuki for the ACU British title.Unfortunatly I could not come up with the goods for Honda but that was mainly due to Frank being a superb rider.his record speak for itself, but there I gave him a good run for his money Frank 99 pts Me 114 pts best six Frank 87 Me 78.
Ca'nt remember my fastest practise lap but it was the last session and around 69/70mph sticks in my mind.


Hi Arthur,
I remember Frank on the Crooks Suzuki's.He was a great rider,and HIS TR50 was pretty quick.Mind you I only recall seeing a small number of them in the UK.Were they not so good generally? One amusing thing about the CR was that your rivals always knew when you were bearing down on them.The sound,it was magical.
I sometimes think I should have not got rid of the CR,but there must be a good number of Manx/G50/7R riders who flogged 'em for £400 or less, when the Yams arrived thinking the same.
ATB HW

#603 HEMEYLA

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:22

Who, where and when ?

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#604 Russell Burrows

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 12:55

Thanks guys for the CR110 info. I can remember seeing them first from about '63 - proper racers that looked and sounded so much well, racier, than those Itoms.

#605 50cc racer

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 17:15

Originally posted by HEMEYLA
Who, where and when ?

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Mike Lewis? Derbi, 69- 70?


A Suzuki MR41 or TR50 ?

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50cc racer

#606 HEMEYLA

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 20:34

Hi Anders, yes it's Mike Lewis from G.B. on his Kreidler, 1970 international 50cc race Tubbergen N.L.

Mike was sponsored by Baldwin Racing, in 1971 they ordered a new engine from Herman Meijer.

A real Hemeyla rotary disk engine with special crankshaft, dry clutch and 6-speed gearbox in Kreidler housings, the aircooled cylinder was tuned by Aalt Toersen who just started his own tuning business then, Aalt made also the expansionpipe.

I did some races with that engine as a test rider before Tubbergen, where Mike raced with his "new" engine for the first time.

Those "test" races i had good results with that very fast engine, bringing me more than enough championship points to get the G.P. licence for my first outing at the Assen TT 1971.

After that race in Tubbergen 1971 Mike never raced again in Holland, so i wonder if our friends from G.B. can tell something about his further racing carreer.

Ton

#607 HEMEYLA

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 21:07

Suzuki TR50 as imported by NIMAG N.L. in 1967, 15 machines were build, the only specifications in Motor Magazine are: aircooled cylinder with piston controlled inlet and six speed gearbox.

#608 50cc racer

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 21:53

Suzuki TR50 as imported by NIMAG N.L. in 1967, 15 machines were build, the only specifications in Motor Magazine are: aircooled cylinder with piston controlled inlet and six speed gearbox.



Yes, but the one pictured comes from an article in Cycle World 1965: Track testing the MR-41 at Riverside!
Must be a pre- production TR50?



50cc racer

#609 T54

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 22:29

It was a production model and it was sold by Suzuki Motor Co. In Buena Park to a dealer in South Los Angeles, "Suzuki City", and sat there for several years, eventually sold in 1970 to... me. :cat:
I did not race it myself but loaned it to one of the employees there, but it was very slow so I sold it back to the dealership. A journalist called Bob Braverman bought it. No idea what happened to it after that, but Bob Braverman died about 15 years ago so it will be hard to ask him...
Regards,

T54

PS: the Mike Lewis Kreidler has a Derbi front end and fairing... could it have begun as a Derbi, later fitted with an RS engine?

#610 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 23:04

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This WWW should last all of 10 seconds :lol:

#611 HEMEYLA

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 23:27

It is really not to difficult, nice picture from Eugenio Lazzarini at Assen 1977 on the works Van Veen Kreidler.

Think about the advantage he had on the small machines, somewhere behind him there was a rider 24 cm taller. :rotfl: :smoking:

#612 fil2.8

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 23:31

Originally posted by HEMEYLA
It is really not to difficult, nice picture from Eugenio Lazzarini at Assen 1977 on the works Van Veen Kreidler.

Think about the advantage he had on the small machines, somewhere behind him there was a rider 24 cm taller. :rotfl: :smoking:


Yes , he wasn't exactually a giant was he ??;)

#613 50cc racer

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 06:17

Tallest one here!!!;)

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50cc racer

#614 50cc racer

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 19:13

Who?

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50cc racer

#615 50cc racer

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 21:13

Who and what?

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50cc racer

#616 50cc racer

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Posted 19 February 2009 - 06:35

Who, when, and where?

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50cc racer

#617 HEMEYLA

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:31

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Who and what?

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50cc racer


Pentti Salonen from Finland with his Tunturi-Puch, not looking very happy racing in the snow.

#618 T54

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 01:03

Who, when, and where?


I think that it is Wolfgang Gedlich on a Kreidler Florett at Hockenheim in 1961? :confused:

#619 HEMEYLA

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 11:06

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Who, when, and where?
50cc racer


Not sure, could it be Oswald Dittrich, winner of the 50cc Moto Cup Race at Hockenheim 1960.

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#620 HEMEYLA

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 11:48

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Who?

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50cc racer


Claudio Lusuardi on the right and Who ??? with Villa bikes.

#621 fil2.8

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 13:18

Originally posted by HEMEYLA


Claudio Lusuardi on the right and Who ??? with Villa bikes.


No , does'nt look like Pete Townsend or Roger Daltry to me :lol: :lol: :lol: :wave:

#622 50cc racer

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 15:18

Originally posted by HEMEYLA


Not sure, could it be Oswald Dittrich, winner of the 50cc Moto Cup Race at Hockenheim 1960.


No, sorry, Gerhard Thurow 1961 :)

And Lusuardi joined Francesco Villa in the Villa brothers shop.

And yes, Pentti Salonen getting colder astride his Tunturi- Puch, while photograpfer snaps away for the Tunturi press release! :up:

#623 HEMEYLA

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Posted 21 February 2009 - 17:28

What a shame, didn't recognize Gerhard, met him for the first time at the 1972 Assen G.P.

#624 GT Karl

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 12:45

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Who, when, and where?

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50cc racer



Gerhard Thurow, Hockenheim 1961 (Moto-Cup or European Championchip)

Cheers

Karl

#625 Arthur

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 19:27

[IMG]http://img9.imagesha.../222/ramsey.jpg[/IMG]


Year--Where--Machine--Rider?

#626 Yendor

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 19:40

Originally posted by Arthur
[IMG]http://img9.imagesha.../222/ramsey.jpg[/IMG]


Year--Where--Machine--Rider?

Georg Anscheidt I.O.M errr '66

#627 jeff sayle

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 19:45

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yendor


Georg Anscheidt I.O.M errr '66
[/QUOTE

Coming out of Ramsey, dah obviously a Suzuki.

#628 picblanc

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 21:44

Originally posted by Arthur
[IMG]http://img9.imagesha.../222/ramsey.jpg[/IMG]


Year--Where--Machine--Rider?

Did they have 12 gears or something similar?

#629 fil2.8

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Posted 24 February 2009 - 22:15

Originally posted by picblanc


Did they have 12 gears or something similar?


Something like that Buster ,IIRC the Kreidler was 18 speed !! i.e 6 on the pedal , and a twist-grip with 3 variations !!!! :eek: :eek:

#630 T54

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 16:36

I would like to correct the above:
the twin-cylinder RM66 Suzuki had a 14-speed inline cluster for the TT and twisty circuits, while there was another 12-speed cluster for other circuits.

The Kreidler NEVER had an 18-speed system, "only" a 12-speed, and only through 1966, the year the works quit racing and let Van Veen take over.
There was a standard 4-speed box derived from the road-going Florett but with closer ratios, the first gear being 52% of the 12th gear, and a 3-speed relay on the left side.
The 5-speed RS was issued after the FIM decision to limit the number of gears to 6, so it would have been physically impossible for Kreidler to have such a machine.

I was very privileged to have been able to drive a 12-speed Kreidler RennFlorett at Monthlery in 1966, the machine trusted to the late Claude Vigreux by the works. It was a jewel in every respect. I also was trusted with the factory supported "sport" class official machine for the French market but only finished second in the championship as the Derbi machines were simply faster.

To drive the 12-speed GP bike, one would engage first gear by left foot and first off the relay, then second and third on the relay. Then go back on the relay to first, and engage second by foot.
Etc.

Regards,

T54

#631 Pils1989

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 17:51

Originally posted by renzo
i'd give my right testicle to have one of these :blush:



hell'i'd give em both!


A cheaper 50cc replica :) :
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#632 fil2.8

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 17:59

Originally posted by T54
I would like to correct the above:
the twin-cylinder RM66 Suzuki had a 14-speed inline cluster for the TT and twisty circuits, while there was another 12-speed cluster for other circuits.

The Kreidler NEVER had an 18-speed system, "only" a 12-speed, and only through 1966, the year the works quit racing and let Van Veen take over.
There was a standard 4-speed box derived from the road-going Florett but with closer ratios, the first gear being 52% of the 12th gear, and a 3-speed relay on the left side.
The 5-speed RS was issued after the FIM decision to limit the number of gears to 6, so it would have been physically impossible for Kreidler to have such a machine.

I was very privileged to have been able to drive a 12-speed Kreidler RennFlorett at Monthlery in 1966, the machine trusted to the late Claude Vigreux by the works. It was a jewel in every respect. I also was trusted with the factory supported "sport" class official machine for the French market but only finished second in the championship as the Derbi machines were simply faster.

To drive the 12-speed GP bike, one would engage first gear by left foot and first off the relay, then second and third on the relay. Then go back on the relay to first, and engage second by foot.
Etc.

Regards,

T54


I stand to be corrected my appologies all round :blush: :blush: :o :o thanks for that

#633 Russell Burrows

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 19:59

Originally posted by T54
I would like to correct the above:
the twin-cylinder RM66 Suzuki had a 14-speed inline cluster for the TT and twisty circuits, while there was another 12-speed cluster for other circuits.

The Kreidler NEVER had an 18-speed system, "only" a 12-speed, and only through 1966, the year the works quit racing and let Van Veen take over.
There was a standard 4-speed box derived from the road-going Florett but with closer ratios, the first gear being 52% of the 12th gear, and a 3-speed relay on the left side.
The 5-speed RS was issued after the FIM decision to limit the number of gears to 6, so it would have been physically impossible for Kreidler to have such a machine.

I was very privileged to have been able to drive a 12-speed Kreidler RennFlorett at Monthlery in 1966, the machine trusted to the late Claude Vigreux by the works. It was a jewel in every respect. I also was trusted with the factory supported "sport" class official machine for the French market but only finished second in the championship as the Derbi machines were simply faster.

To drive the 12-speed GP bike, one would engage first gear by left foot and first off the relay, then second and third on the relay. Then go back on the relay to first, and engage second by foot.

Etc.

Regards,

T54


Must have required lots of practice to chop gears automatically..... Was it Tarqiunio Provini who rode a Keridler in the Island and generally underwhelmed the factory with his performance?

#634 50cc racer

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Posted 25 February 2009 - 22:26

Picture of the 4 x 3 speed mentioned by T54:

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And the "double six":

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#635 HEMEYLA

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 09:10

Suzuki RK67 12 and 14 speed gearboxes.

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Posted Image

#636 T54

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Posted 26 February 2009 - 18:48

Must have required lots of practice to chop gears automatically..... Was it Tarquinio Provini who rode a Kreidler in the Island and generally underwhelmed the factory with his performance?


Provini was an official Kreidler driver for a year but could never figure out how to do it. No doubt that Hans Anscheidt was the best at it.
I personally figured out that the best way was to get up the gears using all of them, then shift down to first by hand and get down as many gears as needed by foot, then engage the clutch... slowly! :)

#637 Arthur

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 20:09

Originally posted by Yendor


Georg Anscheidt I.O.M errr '66


Yes Rod correct in every detail. Parliament Square Ramsey.Suzuki had 5 twin cylinder 50 cc's entered in that race and Suzuki GB had 2 single cylinder machines entered ridden by Chris Vincent and Tommy Robb

#638 Sergio

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 01:56

Hey 50cc Racer

I have a photo of the start of the 50cc race at Hockenheim in 1960.

Posted Image

I don't know the rider's name but it seems to me that Number 11 (Florett) is the same guy you showed in your photo but maybe on a different date.

Since you're in an early 1960s mood, Who? What? and Where? are these two pics taken in the early 1960s. GT Karl is excluded from this ! ! !

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Posted Image

And while I'm at it, can anyone suggest a link for the German National 50cc Championship results in 1959, 1960 and 1961?

Cheers

Sergio

#639 50cc racer

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 08:37

Wow! Sergio that is the first picture I have seen showing the Petri in whole! Nice :)
Of course you know there´s an engine photo in post #209.

Actually I think #11 is Hans Georg Anscheidt.
You can see more pictures from the 1960 Hochenheim race here:

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/1961.html
and here
http://www.elsberg-t...k/kreidler.html

Any hints on the machine in the last pic?



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#640 GT Karl

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 21:18

Originally posted by Sergio
Hey 50cc Racer

I have a photo of the start of the 50cc race at Hockenheim in 1960.

Posted Image

I don't know the rider's name but it seems to me that Number 11 (Florett) is the same guy you showed in your photo but maybe on a different date.

Since you're in an early 1960s mood, Who? What? and Where? are these two pics taken in the early 1960s. GT Karl is excluded from this ! ! !

Posted Image

Posted Image

And while I'm at it, can anyone suggest a link for the German National 50cc Championship results in 1959, 1960 and 1961?

Cheers

Sergio


O.K., ich halt mich raus..... eeehm: i'm keeping out of this affair!;)

cheers

Karl

#641 HEMEYLA

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 22:34

Motor-Cup Hockenheim 1960.

3 works Kreidlers, when # 11 is Hans Georg Anscheidt, then # 10 is Oswald Dittrich and # 20 Wolfgang Gedlich ??

The Paul Petry racer, Manfred Petry or Adolph Klein ??

#642 Yendor

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 23:08

A while back I posted a pic of my Simmonds framed Itom and some one asked if I had a pic of it in action. Well at long last I have found one; my filing system isn't up to much :rotfl:

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#643 fil2.8

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 23:36

Originally posted by Yendor
A while back I posted a pic of my Simmonds framed Itom and some one asked if I had a pic of it in action. Well at long last I have found one; my filing system isn't up to much :rotfl:

Posted Image


What a great shot Rodders :) is that coming down from Druids ?? :confused:

#644 Yendor

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:22

Originally posted by fil2.8


What a great shot Rodders :) is that coming down from Druids ?? :confused:


Yes, absolutely right, flat out of course on an Itom, as were most corners :lol:

#645 T54

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 15:58

Looks like a fairing and seat from a 125cc Ducati? :)

#646 HEMEYLA

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 16:29

Originally posted by Sergio
Hey 50cc Racer

Since you're in an early 1960s mood, Who? What? and Where? are these two pics taken in the early 1960s. GT Karl is excluded from this ! ! !

Posted Image

Cheers

Sergio


Looks a DKW engine to me.

#647 rene 50cc

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 18:49

The cillinderhead is more a Suzuki or a Zündapp head :wave:
rené

#648 50cc racer

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 20:29

Originally posted by rene 50cc
The cillinderhead is more a Suzuki or a Zündapp head :wave:
rené

And the clutch cover looks very DKW´ish !

René, how is your Harmsen build- up coming along?
I´m struggling to finish my latest racer, and are envious of your progress speed :up:

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#649 HEMEYLA

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 22:49

Originally posted by rene 50cc
The cillinderhead is more a Suzuki or a Zündapp head :wave:
rené


:rolleyes: It is D.K.W. :smoking:

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#650 paulhooft

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:37

Back in the 1970's,
I was thinking of buying a Jamathi moped,
But came back home with a blue YAMAHA Fizzy:
That one was stolen from me.. :down:
But I still have the brochure and a Roadtest of the Jamathi...
(and have scans them as a PDF)
and the Yamaha instruction book..
PcH