Piquet senior Rating Options

[Dunc]

I started watching F1 in 1992 so am just old enough to remember Prost, Senna and Mansell racing each other and fully comprehend why people go on about those drivers so much.

However Nelson Piquet was gone by the time I tuned in and I've always wondered why there doesn't seem to as much nostalgia for him? He won three world championships and 20 races in the 1980s, only Prost was more aggregately successful, and his rivalry with Mansell at Williams, from what I've read, seems to have been as intense as that of Prost and Senna at McLaren. Watching some classic F1 clips online, such as the 1982 Brazilian Grand Prix, he also seems to have been able to deliver some spectacular racing.

So can anyone who was around at the time and not wearing nappies explain the lack of Neson nostalgia?

[santori]

Although I was old enough to see him, I only know his career retrospectively. But from reading about him I think:

- his reputation in Britain suffered because of his rivalry with Mansell.
- his reputation in Brazil suffered because of the rise of Senna.
- his mouth got him into trouble, especially later in his career.
- he doesn't seem to have cared that much about how people saw him.
- he did have a dip in his career. I think he lost focus in a way that Prost and Senna never did. That has affected people's perception of his whole career, which is unfair because at his early to mid-eighties peak at Brabham there probably wasn't anyone who worked more closely with his team. I think there's a quote from Frank Williams holding up Piquet and his relationship with Gordon Murray as exemplifying what a driver should be and do.
- his reputation suffered from the fact that Mansell wasn't seen as a leading driver when their Williams rivalry started.

But everything which can be criticised in his driving can be criticised in the driving of his fellow triple champions, Jack Brabham and Niki Lauda. They had similar careers - they were technically adept, cunning, not always aiming at being the fastest, and, over long careers, had periods when they weren't close to being at their best.

Lauda also could be as much of a sod as Piquet but I think his injury protects him to some extent from the same criticism.

[Dunc]

How was his relationship with Senna?

These days it seems like all the Brazillian drivers are having a bit of a love in but I take it that wasn't the case in the AY-tees.

[santori]

How was his relationship with Senna?

Not great. There's a story that it went back to before Senna was in F1, that he'd approached Piquet for an autograph shortly after Gilles Villeneuve's death and been ignored.

[Madras]

He ended up in some not so great cars towards the end and Senna and Prost's McLarens completely overshadowed the rest of the field for 2 whole years.

[MegaManson]

He was a nasty piece of work and still is

Wearing a t shirt in the paddock proclaiming Senna to be gay

Deliberately pissing in his car

Insulting Mansell's wife

Respect has to be earned and while he was a decent driver he was a Grade A asshole

[DePortago]

He won three world championships, but very lucky all of them.

In 1981 the rivalry between the Williams drivers (Reutemann and Jones) benefited Piquet (just in the same way it happened in 2007 between Alonso and Hamilton).

In 1983 Prost was undoubtely the best, but his Renault engine used to blow up again and again. Besides, the fuel used by the Brabham team was illegal.

In 1987, it was easy for him to secure the WC because of the accident of Mansell in Suzuka (they were fighting for the championship and Nigel could not start the race).

As I said, Piquet was very good, but also a lucky bastard!!!

[Dunc]

He was a nasty piece of work and still is

Wearing a t shirt in the paddock proclaiming Senna to be gay

Deliberately pissing in his car

Insulting Mansell's wife

Respect has to be earned and while he was a decent driver he was a Grade A asshole

Well this may explain some of it.

As I said, Piquet was very good, but also a lucky bastard!!!

Fair point but most world champions get some lucky results in their run up to the title - witness Button this year for example.


This post has been edited by Dunc: Oct 17 2009, 13:43

[giacomo]

I started watching F1 in 1992 so am just old enough to remember Prost, Senna and Mansell racing each other and fully comprehend why people go on about those drivers so much.

However Nelson Piquet was gone by the time I tuned in and I've always wondered why there doesn't seem to as much nostalgia for him? He won three world championships and 20 races in the 1980s, only Prost was more aggregately successful, and his rivalry with Mansell at Williams, from what I've read, seems to have been as intense as that of Prost and Senna at McLaren. Watching some classic F1 clips online, such as the 1982 Brazilian Grand Prix, he also seems to have been able to deliver some spectacular racing.

So can anyone who was around at the time and not wearing nappies explain the lack of Neson nostalgia?

Guys like Jackie Stewart rated Piquet as the best driver in the mid-eighties, better than Lauda, Prost or Rosberg.

The lack of Piquet nostalgia has three main reasons:
First of all he was never a dominant driver, never won more than four races a year, and so all his title wins were rather close affairs.
The second reason is his bad relation with the media, as he had a habit of ridiculing journalists. Their reaction was to write lots of unfriendly stuff about him, while the most unfriendly aspects of his rivals were swept under the carpet.
And then there were his less than glorious later years in sub par cars.

[santori]

He won three world championships, but very lucky all of them.

In 1981 the rivalry between the Williams drivers (Reutemann and Jones) benefited Piquet (just in the same way it happened in 2007 between Alonso and Hamilton).

In 1983 Prost was undoubtely the best, but his Renault engine used to blow up again and again. Besides, the fuel used by the Brabham team was illegal.

In 1987, it was easy for him to secure the WC because of the accident of Mansell in Suzuka (they were fighting for the championship and Nigel could not start the race).

As I said, Piquet was very good, but also a lucky bastard!!!

While the Williams rivalry in 1981 may have caused internal problems, they didn't take many points off each other and I don't see that it detracts from Nelson's championship anymore than the Fittipaldi-Peterson internal rivalry at Lotus detracts from Jackie Stewart's 1973 championship or the Mansell-Piquet rivalry at Williams in 1986 detracts from Prost's championship.

In 1983, Piquet was widely regarded as the best driver in F1. Prost had, I think, two turbo failures and no engine failures that year. Piquet retired twice with throttle problems and once with engine failure. They both retired in the Netherlands when Prost crashed into Piquet. And for all the talk of an illegal BMW advantage, that has never been proved and I think the story has also gained ground largely because of Piquet and Prost's later reputations. It's possible it's true but it's possible that Renault wasn't exactly spotless, either. At the time there was probably more talk of Renault trying to gain unfair advantages and Piquet's victory was popular (eg. Keke Rosberg: "I don't think anyone has anything against Alain, but Renault has tried every political manoeuvre in the book.").

And in 1987, Mansell made a mistake at Suzuka. Piquet, on the other hand, didn't make a mistake at Imola when a tyre failure pitched off at Tamburello, resulting in injuries which kept him from the race and left him in poor shape for the rest of the year (he has said that he was never as fast again).


EDIT: It probably looks like I'm a Piquet partisan but really I just think that he's underrated because of some... personal eccentricities, and deserves to be remembered for all that he was.

This post has been edited by santori: Oct 17 2009, 14:24

[OnyxF1]

Piquet Sr was one of the most underrated champions in history. He was technically adept, brilliant at developing the car, an intelligent racer and a good overtaker when he needed to be. He was very highly rated by the engineers. For example, Paul Rosche head of BMW's engine development said he was the best development driver in the world at the time. Sennamania I think has dulled the Piquet legacy since Senna is most definitely a more popular driver than Piquet, not just in Brazil but across the world. A shame really as Piquet deserved more praise for his achievements.

Also, I felt that Piquet Sr's lack of respect for Mansell and Senna was more amusing then anything else. He was an asshole, but a funny one nonetheless.

This post has been edited by OnyxF1: Oct 17 2009, 14:23

[Colombo]

I started watching F1 in 1992 so am just old enough to remember Prost, Senna and Mansell racing each other and fully comprehend why people go on about those drivers so much.

However Nelson Piquet was gone by the time I tuned in and I've always wondered why there doesn't seem to as much nostalgia for him? He won three world championships and 20 races in the 1980s, only Prost was more aggregately successful, and his rivalry with Mansell at Williams, from what I've read, seems to have been as intense as that of Prost and Senna at McLaren. Watching some classic F1 clips online, such as the 1982 Brazilian Grand Prix, he also seems to have been able to deliver some spectacular racing.

So can anyone who was around at the time and not wearing nappies explain the lack of Neson nostalgia?

I followed the whole career of Piquet Sr. and supported him strongly ever since 1980 until the end of his career. IMHO, he is the most underestimated top F1 driver of all times. His career achievments are astonishing: 3 WDCs, 23 victories (a significant number, knowing that by the time he won his 3rd title, the highest total was 27), similar numbers of FLs and PPs, and, what's even more a great achievment, he won 3 titles in vastly different cars with vastly different engines:

1981 - a ground effect Brabham wing car with normally aspirated Cosworts of about 480 bhp with Goodyear tyres
1983 - first ever "turbo champion" with a flat-bottomed Brabham car with 700 bhp BMW engine and refuelling and Michelin tyres
1987 - again turbo, but this time a Williams in the fuel-restricted era with 900 bhp 6-cylinder Honda and a top teammate with Goodyears again

After 2 bad years in Lotus (although he did scored the last podiums for the Team), Piquet ressurected his career and continued to win (at the age of 38!) with normally aspirated cars in 1990 and 1991 (on Pirellis), scoring an incredible 3rd place in the WCC table with a Benetton in 1990, beating one driver of Ferrari, one driver of McLaren and both drivers of Williams with an undeniably lesser car. Up until the Schumacher's mighty 1994 season, Piquet held half of Benetton's total victories.
Piquet pulled brilliant overtakings, like on Senna at Hungary in 1986, was credited for inventing the tyre warmers, knew when to push and when to settle for lesser places, drove extremely intelligently and obeyed the fair play.

Piquet won in 10 individual F1 seasons, won titles against Jones, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Rosberg and Mansell and was undeniably one of the most versatile and finest racing drivers in the world.

(I know this has no place in this thread but these facts make even sillier excuses about Ferrari's handling not suiting Räikkönen's style.)

GC

This post has been edited by Colombo: Oct 17 2009, 15:41

[AndreasF1]

I followed the whole career of Piquet Sr. and supported him strongly ever since 1980 until the end of his career. IMHO, he is the most underestimated top F1 driver of all times. His career achievments are astonishing: 3 WDCs, 23 victories (a significant number, knowing that by the time he won his 3rd title, the highest total was 27), similar numbers of FLs and PPs, and, what's even more a great achievment, he won 3 titles in vastly different cars with vastly different engines:

1981 - a ground effect Brabham wing car with normally aspirated Cosworts of about 480 bhp with Goodyear tyres
1983 - first ever "turbo champion" with a flat-bottomed Brabham car with 700 bhp BMW engine and refuelling and Michelin tyres
1987 - again turbo, but this time a Williams in the fuel-restricted era with 900 bhp 6-cylinder Honda and a top teammate with Goodyears again

After 2 bad years in Lotus (although he did scored the last podiums for the Team), Piquet ressurected his career and continued to win (at the age of 38!) with normally aspirated cars in 1990 and 1991 (on Pirellis), scoring an incredible 3rd place in the WCC table with a Benetton in 1990, beating one driver of Ferrari, one driver of McLaren and both drivers of Williams with an undeniably lesser car. Up until the Schumacher's mighty 1994 season, Piquet held half of Benetton's total victories.
Piquet pulled brilliant overtakings, like on Senna at Hungary in 1986, was credited for inventing the tyre warmers, knew when to push and when to settle for lesser places, drove extremely intelligently and obeyed the fair play.

Piquet won in 10 individual F1 seasons, won titles against Jones, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Rosberg and Mansell and was undeniably one of the most versatile and finest racing drivers in the world.

(I know this has no place in this thread but these facts make even sillier excuses about Ferrari's handling not suiting Räikkönen's style.)

GC

well written!! I have to say that personally I never cared much for Piquet due to his mean spirited antics toward Senna and Mansell. He was very cocky and it was great to see his arrogant smirk wiped right off his face by Mansell beating him soundly to victory at Brands in 86.

[Colombo]

well written!! I have to say that personally I never cared much for Piquet due to his mean spirited antics toward Senna and Mansell. He was very cocky and it was great to see his arrogant smirk wiped right off his face by Mansell beating him soundly to victory at Brands in 86.

Thanks!
But I also remember several interviews of the period and he never appeared cocky or hot headed but very level and respectful. In fact, I've never heard him being anywhere as arrogant as Senna sometimes did.

GC

This post has been edited by Colombo: Oct 17 2009, 17:20

[Gagá Bueno]

In fact, I've never heard him being anywhere as arrogant as Senna sometimes did.

Me not too... And it's very strange that such a "cocky arrogant a-hole" is so high regarded by his former technicians / mechanics, fans and nowadays by his employees...

[OnyxF1]

Thanks!
But I also remember several interviews of the period and he never appeared cocky or hot headed but very level and respectful. In fact, I've never heard him being anywhere as arrogant as Senna sometimes did.

GC

Indeed. Actually I remember reading that when Piquet and Prost collided in Zandvoort in 1983, they had a dinner together after the race and were perfectly okay with each other. If that had happened between Piquet and Mansell and/or Senna, I doubt things would have been so civil.

[giacomo]

Indeed. Actually I remember reading that when Piquet and Prost collided in Zandvoort in 1983, they had a dinner together after the race and were perfectly okay with each other. If that had happened between Piquet and Mansell and/or Senna, I doubt things would have been so civil.

Piquet even invited Prost onto his yacht in Monaco after that incident.

And later in Kyalami, at the title decider between them, Prost ran around the paddock with a huge 'Nelson Piquet Fan Club' sticker on his overall, covering the RENAULT ELF label.

[Craven Morehead]

NP was a great driver. he had all the necessary peices: he could qualify fast, he had great race pace, he knwe how to develop the car, he could pass with the best of them when required, he was an intelligent guy. He also had a roguish sense of humour tha made him a bit unpopular with some, although I thought he was pretty clever.

I saw him live in Montreal a couple of times and he had a great flair of really drifting the car through the corners, quite unlike the others (very old school). This wasn't nearly as eveident on TV as it was trackside. I worked in motorsport back then. We were having dinner in a hotel restaurant one of those years and NP walked by, saw us staring, and gave us a huge grin and a wave. Made eveyone smile.

In short the guy was quite brilliant. Have a look at this (!!) Around Senna on the outside. The guy could really throw the car sideways when he needed to.

This post has been edited by Craven Morehead: Oct 28 2009, 15:43

[Craven Morehead]

I think NP suffered at the hands of the British press, because of his rivalry with Mansell & this is why many english speaking fans may not have the fondest recollentiong. I can remember some nasty stuff they wrote about him.

Here's Piquet & Prost having a little fun. Gives you a sense of NP's sense of humour: Prost Interview

[Colombo]

People say that Piquet was lucky in his WDC titles and it may have been so, partly, but he was also unlucky in some other seasons.
I would say that 1981-1986 Piquet was the best or one of the top 2-3 drivers consistently, he was just incredibly quick. In 1984 he scored 9 poles and led most races but retired many times due to sheer car unreliabilty. In 1986 he jumped into Williams, won his first race there and then probably suffered somewhat from the very same situation Alonso would meet 21 years later - the team supporting his teammate, yet when he got used to the car and engine, he was the best and fastest driver out there again.

But what I was most impressed with was Piquet's 1990 season.

GC

This post has been edited by Colombo: Oct 17 2009, 19:56

[Craven Morehead]

Nobody lucks into one WDC let alone Three. The guy was damn good, and as Columbo pointed out, 9 pole positions in one season. he could go freakin' quick. I miss those old days..

[OnyxF1]

I'm glad someone brought up Piquet's shit luck at Brabham. The reliability of the Brabham-BMWs, particularly in 1984 and 1985 was utterly abysmal. Had he had decent reliability in 1984, then he could have challenged Lauda and Prost for the title, but it wasn't to be unfortunately. Then Bernie shafted Brabham for good by signing up with Pirelli for tyres.

This post has been edited by OnyxF1: Oct 17 2009, 20:00

[Craven Morehead]

Here's a hillarious Piquet moment with absolutely brilliant commentary from Murray Walker, "Well, take that! Oh my goodness!"

Piquet vs Salazar

[SPBHM]

classic


some years later



great times

[GustavoB]

great topic guys!!

I'm a huge fan of Piquet. I learned to love Formula-1 looking to that Brabham...

good times. Loved the picture with Piquet and Salazar!!

[Gagá Bueno]

it was great to see his arrogant smirk wiped right off his face by Mansell beating him soundly to victory at Brands in 86.

As it was even greater to see "our Nige" celebrating his "victory" in Canada 91... And who won...?

[Colombo]

SPBHM, this recent Piquet and Salazar photo is brilliant!

GC

[WebBerK]

well written!! I have to say that personally I never cared much for Piquet due to his mean spirited antics toward Senna and Mansell. He was very cocky and it was great to see his arrogant smirk wiped right off his face by Mansell beating him soundly to victory at Brands in 86.

At that time there were fuel constraints regulations and the max fuel capacity in the tank was 200 - 220 ? liters.
It happened that in the race, for some reason I don't remember, Mansell was leading but had to pit.
Then Mansell used the turbo boost to the maximun and in theory he should not have finished the race with a dry tank.
That's why the surprising face of Mansell.

Also, there were two chassis at Williams, a long and short one that they had to share and make a difference.

[Slyder]

I've always liked Nelson Sr.

He outclassed Lauda in the Brabham, and naturally became the team leader once Lauda left. He should have won the Championship in 1980, but the controversial incident at Montreal with Jones and that engine failure prevented him from that.

He duly won in 1981. I believe of all his 3 WDCs, this one was the more remarkable, because he made a lot of silly mistakes early in the season, yet he still managed to put himself back together and beat Reutemann for the title. Truly great stuff.

1983 was also great. he took the fight to Prost and once again came back from behind to win it.

I believe he would've been a WDC contender in 1984, but the BMW engine was garbage despite being powerful and robbed him of several races and podiums he clearly had in the bag.

his rivalry with Nigel Mansell was memorable, he ultimately won the war, and they truly beat on each other but good. I have to say, yes, everyone remembers Mansell beating Piquet in Silverstone 1987, but they forget that Piquet threw the first punch a year earlier. Monza 1986, Piquet chased down Mansell dramatically and beat him fair and square for the win. For me, that was one of his greatest drives, and I'll always remember him for that drive.

Too bad he got saddle with POS Brabhams in 1984, 85, and then Lotuses in 88 and 89. He could've been a contender those years as well.

[Slyder]

As it was even greater to see "our Nige" celebrating his "victory" in Canada 91... And who won...?

Forget that. Try Monza 1986.

[WebBerK]

Beyond being the first Turbo WDC, Piquet also developed the Williams Active Suspension.

Beyond the rivalry with the British and Brazilian press, another issue that has hurt Piquet's career were the closed doors at Ferrari and McLaren.

At Ferrari, Nelson was the only one that criticized Enzo Ferrari, calling him "Gaga" bcs Gilles Villeneuve died due to the rupture of the seatbelt in his car, when the Ferrari rolled at Zolder. If the safety device were working correctly, it is believed that Gilles would never be ejected from the car and would be still alive.

At McLaren, Nelson had a great rivalry with Ron Dennis, with origins at British F3.
Piquet had his own team in F3 and was the driver that won the champioship over Project Four, the team run by Ron Dennis. Piquet told that he had negotiation with McLaren, but due to the lack of goodwill among Ron and Nelson, the conversation never had the adequate progress.

[4L3X]

Thanks a lot for all those posts on Piquet. Great memories, and I agree, one of the best underrated drivers.

[Gagá Bueno]

Forget that. Try Monza 1986.

You're right...Thanks!

This post has been edited by Gagá Bueno: Oct 18 2009, 06:33

[Colombo]

At McLaren, Nelson had a great rivalry with Ron Dennis, with origins at British F3.
Piquet had his own team in F3 and was the driver that won the champioship over Project Four, the team run by Ron Dennis. Piquet told that he had negotiation with McLaren, but due to the lack of goodwill among Ron and Nelson, the conversation never had the adequate progress.

Piquet was apparently offered a McLaren seat for 1988 but turned it down and Senna accepted. I was never 100% sure if that's true but if it was so, it was the greatest mistake of Piquet's career, although I suppose Prost would come on top.

GC

[Sound of Speed]

Piquet was a very, very talented driver. Fast, consistent, very clean on the track, very honest with the press, fans and other drivers. Amazing and brilliant car developer, like probably no other driver in F1 history - today he is still highly respected inside BMW, Pirelli and Williams. And he had a great sense of humor - although a little agressive sometimes, something that annoyed some people.

Piquet.

This post has been edited by Sound of Speed: Oct 22 2009, 02:21

[SB]

Piquet was apparently offered a McLaren seat for 1988 but turned it down and Senna accepted. I was never 100% sure if that's true but if it was so, it was the greatest mistake of Piquet's career, although I suppose Prost would come on top.

GC

On the other hand I've read another story that Senna wanted to step up to F1 with Brabham team for 1984 season. However it was veto by Piquet and finally Senna has to start his F1 career in Toleman, which started the rivalry between the two Brazilian drivers.

This post has been edited by SB: Oct 22 2009, 03:01

[fastlegs]

Piquet was a very, very talented driver. Fast, consistent, very clean on the track, very honest with the press, fans and other drivers. Amazing and brilliant car developer, like probably no other driver in F1 history - today he is still highly respected inside BMW, Pirelli and Williams. And he had a great sense of humor - although a little agressive sometimes, something that annoyed some people.

Piquet.

Well said.

He is definitely one of the all time greats.

Him and I are about the same age so I can remember some of his great races way back in the old days.

[WebBerK]

On the other hand I've read another story that Senna wanted to step up to F1 with Brabham team for 1984 season. However it was veto by Piquet and finally Senna has to start his F1 career in Toleman, which started the rivalry between the two Brazilian drivers.

There was a direct shootout on track test day where Piquet ended the day faster than Senna.
However Piquet praised Senna bcs he was less than one second down in a car developed by him from the ground.

[saudoso]

Once in detroit I think he grabed a pole by having the first gear removed from the gearbox. Asked how he knew he would be able to leave the pits like that he said: "It was the first thing I tried on friday"

[giacomo]

There was a direct shootout on track test day where Piquet ended the day faster than Senna.
However Piquet praised Senna bcs he was less than one second down in a car developed by him from the ground.

Not a single word of truth in this posting:
There was no shootout, no praisings from Piquet for Senna, even the less than one second gap figure is incorrect.