3514 replies to this topic

[Dunder]

This is the tweet from the original post.

Where does it wasy the FIA are banning blown exhausts ?

One could read that tweet as saying McLaren aren't running a blown exhaust this weekend, and their engineer is expecting a poor qualifying performance.

It could be read that way but it wouldn't make much sense. The McLaren version has been fairly effective (in comparison with everyone except RBR) since it was introduced at Spa and it has been reliable. Unless that have come up with something else...................


............ ignore that last bit.

[peroa]

But he mentions only Q. So RBR are clearly doing something additionally in Q3 compared to last year.

If I had to guess what it is, I'd say the FIA banned injecting additional fuel into the cylinder while off throttle.

[bonjon1979a]

Slightly...okay VERY stalkerish but I wanted to check that the initial source was who he says he is.

Look at this Mclaren factory visit around 2.07



At the back, centre is the person who tweeted.

The tweet about the exhaust gases being banned was deleted fairly swiftly. It could be that he just got the wrong end of the stick or it could be that it wasn't supposed to be for public consumption yet. But he IS a Mclaren man.

[goingthedistance]

As someone said in the McLaren thread, this could tie in with an autosport report a few weeks back:

Red Bull Racing's qualifying advantage could be helped by 'elaborate' engine mapping that helps make its blown diffuser more effective over a single lap.

...

Red Bull Racing could be using a more extreme version of such engine mapping to dramatically increase exhaust flow in qualifying - but this would likely put a strain on its Renault power unit which could threaten reliability in the races.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91091

[Dunder]

But he mentions only Q. So RBR are clearly doing something additionally in Q3 compared to last year.

If I had to guess what it is, I'd say the FIA banned injecting additional fuel into the cylinder while off throttle.

Define off throttle!
You want the accelerated gas while cornering. There is a huge variation of throttle positions, ranges of acceleration/deceleration and ranges of speed/RPM where it will be used at present.

Edited by Dunder, 17 May 2011 - 14:02.

[Seanspeed]

I wonder what percentage of F1 fans actually realize that this off-throttle trick with the exhaust-blown diffusers apparently costs a bit more fuel? Outside of F1 circles, I'm pretty sure nobody would ever know.

Sorry, but I dont buy that this would be done for any 'green' reasons.

[bonjon1979a]

I wonder what percentage of F1 fans actually realize that this off-throttle trick with the exhaust-blown diffusers apparently costs a bit more fuel? Outside of F1 circles, I'm pretty sure nobody would ever know.

Sorry, but I dont buy that this would be done for any 'green' reasons.

Not many. I tried to explain it to my girlfriend the other day, she looked at me as if I was talking in Russian.

[spacekid]

Erm... how did so much of this thread come to be dominated by this being a potential 'green issue'? I'm sorry but that sounds like complete nonsense. I doubt very much that anyone outside a few hardcore F1 fans either know or care about this system. I can hardly see Bild or The Sun doing a front page splash 'F1 cars waste fuel scandel!'

This sounds a lot more like a mass damper situation to me... if you know what I mean

Anyway its all very interesting. Im not going to get cross until I know what I'm getting cross about but either
i) Something about this system breaks an existing rule, meaning Red Bull have been running an illegal car
(which I doubt)
ii) There's something fishy going on. I hate mid season rule changes, if Red Bull have found a way to bend the rules that others haven't been able to get working moer power to them I say, it isn' their problem!! And I say that as a non-fan!

Edited by spacekid, 17 May 2011 - 14:04.

[peroa]

Define off throttle!
You want the accelerated gas while cornering. There is a huge variation of throttle positions, ranges of acceleration/deceleration and ranges of speed where it will be used at present.

Take a youtube video and you will hear quite clearly what I mean.
Approaching a corner, when all the balance changes to the front and you are left without rear downforce.
Hell, that's why it wasn't used since the 80's?

[Seanspeed]

Erm... how did so much of this thread come to be dominated by this being a potential 'green issue'? I'm sorry but that sounds like complete nonsense. I doubt very much that anyone outside a few hardcore F1 fans either know or care about this system. I can hardly see Bild or The Sun doing a front page splash 'F1 cars waste fuel scandel!'

This sounds a lot more like a mass damper situation to me... if you know what I mean

Anyway its all very interesting. Im not going to get cross until I know what I'm getting cross about but either
i) Something about this system breaks an existing rule, meaning Red Bull have been running an illegal car
(which I doubt)
ii) There's something fishy going on. I hate mid season rule changes, if Red Bull have found a way to bend the rules that others haven't been able to get working moer power to them I say, it isn' their problem!! And I say that as a non-fan!

If Red Bull are running an illegal car, then so is everybody. The FIA could merely finger Red Bull and say their car is illegal if its only something they're doing.

I'd say the 2nd option would be the most obvious explanation. A shame if true. They deserve the advantage they get if its within the rules.

Edited by Seanspeed, 17 May 2011 - 14:06.

[spacekid]

If Red Bull are running an illegal car, then so is everybody. The FIA could merely finger Red Bull and say their car is illegal if its only something they're doing.

I'd say the 2nd option would be the most obvious explanation. A shame if true. They deserve the advantage they get if its within the rules.

Oh absolutely. Please don't for a second think I'm implying option i), I just tried to word my post in bias of the 'fishy' option.

As I said, I smell a mass damper situation, but won't get angry until more info outs. If my hunch is correct I'll be very cross indeed.

[ArtShelley]

Erm... how did so much of this thread come to be dominated by this being a potential 'green issue'? I'm sorry but that sounds like complete nonsense. I doubt very much that anyone outside a few hardcore F1 fans either know or care about this system. I can hardly see Bild or The Sun doing a front page splash 'F1 cars waste fuel scandel!'

This sounds a lot more like a mass damper situation to me... if you know what I mean

Anyway its all very interesting. Im not going to get cross until I know what I'm getting cross about but either
i) Something about this system breaks an existing rule, meaning Red Bull have been running an illegal car
(which I doubt)
ii) There's something fishy going on. I hate mid season rule changes, if Red Bull have found a way to bend the rules that others haven't been able to get working moer power to them I say, it isn' their problem!! And I say that as a non-fan!

First of all we have no idea whether it is true. The guy that tweeted this is a bit of a prankster. Yes he works for McLaren, but not that long ago he also tweeted that McLaren will no longer be in F1 after 2011.

However if it is true that off-throttle exhaust blowing will not be allowed, then I can only surmise that it's yet again a case of the powers that be trying to influence the championship to make it more exciting. That is, RBR are running away with the championship and this might be a way for the FIA to even things up to try and make it more competitive. Sad if true.

[spacekid]

First of all we have no idea whether it is true. The guy that tweeted this is a bit of a prankster. Yes he works for McLaren, but not that long ago he also tweeted that McLaren will no longer be in F1 after 2011.

However if it is true that off-throttle exhaust blowing will not be allowed, then I can only surmise that it's yet again a case of the powers that be trying to influence the championship to make it more exciting. That is, RBR are running away with the championship and this might be a way for the FIA to even things up to try and make it more competitive. Sad if true.

Good point ArtShelley, this may well all turn out to be a load of hot air!!

(I'll get my coat...)

[Seanspeed]

Oh absolutely. Please don't for a second think I'm implying option i), I just tried to word my post in bias of the 'fishy' option.

As I said, I smell a mass damper situation, but won't get angry until more info outs. If my hunch is correct I'll be very cross indeed.

I wasn't trying to disagree. Let me rephrase my response:

[spacekid]

I wasn't trying to disagree. Let me rephrase my response:

Yep I reread what you said after I posted and totally getchya

Actually having applied a microseconds thought to this I now think a twitter hoax is the most likely explanation. We are in Mr Toads era of the FIA now not Spanky's, and such a rule change would look pertty rank. Either way we'll know for sure in a couple of hours...

[bonjon1979a]

First of all we have no idea whether it is true. The guy that tweeted this is a bit of a prankster. Yes he works for McLaren, but not that long ago he also tweeted that McLaren will no longer be in F1 after 2011.

However if it is true that off-throttle exhaust blowing will not be allowed, then I can only surmise that it's yet again a case of the powers that be trying to influence the championship to make it more exciting. That is, RBR are running away with the championship and this might be a way for the FIA to even things up to try and make it more competitive. Sad if true.

I think you're probably right. My guess is that if it were true we'd be hearing about it from other tweeting journalists by now. I'm off for the day, will check in with the madness later tonight.

[simplyfast]

The amount of fuel used just flying the VIP's in and out of Silverstone over the race weekend probably equates to more than the cars use over the season.

so your and krapmister's whole argument is well they use lots now so why not let them use even more
Its that whole shallow type of argument that has helped get us into the mess with the environment on this planet.

Its all too easy to claim its just a small amount while being incapable of recognising the fact that if a sport is willing to openly waste so much fuel (10%) then very quickly the governments and environmental organisations of the world will start to look at if is justifiable when they are all trying to get greener and for most countries if they could drop 10% immediately they would be having parties about it.

I am sorry if you cant understand that wasting even 1% of our LIMITED energy is no longer justifiable let alone 10%.
Yes we all know F1 is massively polluting but that is the nature of the beast but to allow it to just be wasteful on top of that is not something most companies would want to be associated with, and would long term harm their green credential's.
Don't forget F1 has been trying to reduce its overall carbon footprint for many years now why let the teams just take back all the gains to waste.
But if some people cant understand for the companies who sponsor (and thus for the teams who profit from the sponsors money,) such things are not justifiable and thus to carry on can only long term harm the image of F1.
As most people understand perception with F1 is everything, if that perception is one of we don't care about our planet and will carry on wasting much more of a limited resource than we need to, then there will be a backlash. Besides only a fool would claim it was right to do so.
Are we certain it was not brought up by the teams or even FOTA because of backlash from sponsors not being happy to have to always cut down their emissions while one sport (they support) does as much as it can to get worse?

[cilurnum]

As I said, I smell a mass damper situation, but won't get angry until more info outs. If my hunch is correct I'll be very cross indeed.

It does smell a little like that I have to say, but the problem is that all teams are using exhaust gases to create downforce now. You can never tell how much it will affect one team and not another. Red Bull still had a fast car even when they weren't routing exhaust gases here there and everywhere.

Any team who is pushing for this is obviously getting increasingly desperate because they've run out of ideas. In many ways, it sounds like the last roll of the dice.

[Owen]

It does smell a little like that I have to say, but the problem is that all teams are using exhaust gases to create downforce now. You can never tell how much it will affect one team and not another. Red Bull still had a fast car even when they weren't routing exhaust gases here there and everywhere.

Any team who is pushing for this is obviously getting increasingly desperate because they've run out of ideas. In many ways, it sounds like the last roll of the dice.

It's not called the piranha club for nothing. It's F1.
Every opportunity to advance your team's performance has to be explored, however minimal. Red Bull would do this to their rivals without a second thought... (remember the moans about engine equalisation?)

[windtravels]

F1grid Formula 1 Updates
by ScarbsF1
BREAKING NEWS: McLaren engineer @RealSimonB says there will be no blowing off exhaust gases allowed off throttle this weekend #F1

update:

ScarbsF1 Craig Scarborough
I can't be sure sure of the source of that tweet

ScarbsF1 Craig Scarborough
But I did hear a rumour about a limit on exhaust flow on the overrun to reduce the blown effect off throttle. Something like 10-15% of max

Edited by windtravels, 17 May 2011 - 14:37.

[PedroCZ]

It is in Technical Directive 15 sent to all teams last week. Exhaust blowing is no longer allowed.
Teams are no longer allowed to control the throttle opening when they throttle off - well, max. throttle is limited to 10% when throttle off. Valid immediately as all technical directives.

It will impact people badly as the exhaust gas mass flow will reduce heavily.

Edited by PedroCZ, 17 May 2011 - 14:36.

[OwenC93]

But I did hear a rumour about a limit on exhaust flow on the overrun to reduce the blown effect off throttle. Something like 10-15% of max

Edited by OwenC93, 17 May 2011 - 14:39.

[maverick69]

It is in Technical Directive 15 sent to all teams last week. Exhaust blowing is no longer allowed.
Teams are no longer allowed to control the throttle opening when they throttle off - well, max. throttle is limited to 10% when throttle off. Valid immediately as all technical directives.

It will impact people badly as the exhaust gas mass flow will reduce heavily.

Thanks.

Do you know what the rationale was behind the move?

[Owen]

It is in Technical Directive 15 sent to all teams last week. Exhaust blowing is no longer allowed.
Teams are no longer allowed to control the throttle opening when they throttle off - well, max. throttle is limited to 10% when throttle off. Valid immediately as all technical directives.

It will impact people badly as the exhaust gas mass flow will reduce heavily.

for real?

[Haribo]

I am sorry if you cant understand that wasting even 1% of our LIMITED energy is no longer justifiable let alone 10%.

In that case, we might as well just tell them all to stay at home. F1 isn't necessary, so we might as well pack it in to save the planet.

Yes we all know F1 is massively polluting but that is the nature of the beast but to allow it to just be wasteful on top of that is not something most companies would want to be associated with, and would long term harm their green credential's.
Don't forget F1 has been trying to reduce its overall carbon footprint for many years now why let the teams just take back all the gains to waste.

I can't see that an extra 10% in a qualifying session would be an example of wasting a gain. If it was something like reducing F1 from a 3 day weekend to a 2 day weekend, that would be understandable. But how many sponsors and eco-activists would know about the extra fuel needed for an EBD?

[ed24f1]

If they want to go down this route, it would be nice if they didn't allow DRS in qualifying as well!

[Seanspeed]

It is in Technical Directive 15 sent to all teams last week. Exhaust blowing is no longer allowed.
Teams are no longer allowed to control the throttle opening when they throttle off - well, max. throttle is limited to 10% when throttle off. Valid immediately as all technical directives.

It will impact people badly as the exhaust gas mass flow will reduce heavily.

Absolutely ridiculous.

There is no need for this change.

[goingthedistance]

Looking more and more like it's real. Limiting it 10-15% of max off-throttle is probably about the degree they use it during the race, perhaps?

We may see a mixed up quali session at last.

Edited by goingthedistance, 17 May 2011 - 14:45.

[Kvothe]

Scarbs F1:

If true, downforce will be a lot more sensitve to throttle. Teams with aggressive EBDs will struggle (RBR, Ferr, Mac)

Edited by Kvothe, 17 May 2011 - 14:47.

[Dunder]

Absolutely ridiculous.

There is no need for this change.

I would certainly like to know the rationale, if true.

[Owen]

Looking more and more like it's real. Limiting it 10-15% of max off-throttle is probably about the degree they use it during the race, perhaps?

We may see a mixed up quali session at last.

Will be interesting to see who is hit hard by this. Or indeed if the impact really makes that much difference. Has added a different dimension to qualifying now.

[Haribo]

Looking more and more like it's real. Limiting it 10-15% of max off-throttle is probably about the degree they use it during the race, perhaps?

We may see a mixed up quali session at last.

Is this just for qualifying, or for the race as well though?

[Don_Humpador]

It is in Technical Directive 15 sent to all teams last week. Exhaust blowing is no longer allowed.
Teams are no longer allowed to control the throttle opening when they throttle off - well, max. throttle is limited to 10% when throttle off. Valid immediately as all technical directives.

It will impact people badly as the exhaust gas mass flow will reduce heavily.

If that's true how come in the preview quotes teams like Williams are saying they have new EBDs to test?

If it was sent out last week why wasn't it announced then?

Etc. etc.

I'm unconvinced so far..

[Owen]

Scarbs F1: If true, downforce will be a lot more sensitve to throttle. Teams with aggressive EBDs will struggle (RBR, Ferr, Mac)

Does that mean it will favour Merc and Renault then?

[peroa]

I like it, hope it will close the gaps, not just at the sharp end.

Edited by peroa, 17 May 2011 - 14:48.

[goingthedistance]

Will be interesting to see who is hit hard by this. Or indeed if the impact really makes that much difference. Has added a different dimension to qualifying now.

Based on last year, Vettel will not be happy.

From last year:

In its initial form, this component required a very specific driving technique to maximise the time on open throttle - which increased the downforce boost from the exhaust plume - and Webber was superb at it, consistently squeezing just that little bit more from it than his team-mate.

Vettel continued to be better at living with a little bit of entry oversteer, and that ability to adapt to the car moving around him was maybe partly why he was not as insistent on adapting his technique to a feature that calmed the rear end as soon as you got on the throttle.

From Valencia onwards however, the Renault engine was running software that retarded the ignition off-throttle, using the extra heat created to maintain exhaust flow to the diffuser even off-throttle.

Suddenly that downforce boost was there even during braking and Webber's specialised technique was no longer required. That improvement, in other words, took away a key Webber advantage.

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9127533.stm

Edited by goingthedistance, 17 May 2011 - 14:50.

[windtravels]

Got to imagine this will hurt RB the most? Hope so anyway, hah.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What it means is teams with really intricate successfull EBD's will lose their advantage. A team without one at all (TL? Virgin?) won't even be affected.

[TURU]

Does that mean it will favour Merc and Renault then?

It can. Renault's and Merc's solutions are less sensitive to throttle control.

[OwenC93]

It can. Renault's and Merc's solutions are less sensitive to throttle control.

But Renault may be one of the cars to lose the most amount of downforce from it. So a bit more drivability(compared to others), but a bit less dowforce.

[flyer121]

Relax guys ... its for our entertainment !! Thank FIA & Todt.
Do you want to see Vettel romp to the title with 4 races remaining?

Now we will have an equal battle of talents between Alonso / Hamilton and Vettel.
All good.

[fed up]

Relax guys ... its for our entertainment !! Thank FIA & Todt.
Do you want to see Vettel romp to the title with 4 races remaining?

Now we will have an equal battle of talents between Alonso / Hamilton and Vettel.
All good.

+1

[Owen]

It can. Renault's and Merc's solutions are less sensitive to throttle control.

Cheers guys. Looks like someone's hit the reset button on qualifying to a certain degree. Throwing the form book in the bin as we speak.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What on earth is the logic behind the decision though...

[TURU]

But Renault may be one of the cars to lose the most amount of downforce from it. So a bit more drivability(compared to others), but a bit less dowforce.

Everyone will lose downforce and who will suffer the most remains to be seen.

[windtravels]

Cheers guys. Looks like someone's hit the reset button on qualifying to a certain degree. Throwing the form book in the bin as we speak.

Not sure id go that far. somehow i bet RB still have slight advantage and other top teams remain competetive, midfield stay midfield etc.

would be nice if it brings the battle for pole into a real 3/4 way fight though.

[Seanspeed]

Relax guys ... its for our entertainment !! Thank FIA & Todt.
Do you want to see Vettel romp to the title with 4 races remaining?

Not necessarily, but I also dont want a manipulated championship. Red Bull shouldn't be punished for doing a great job.

[Group B]

Got to imagine this will hurt RB the most? Hope so anyway, hah.

Yeah, will be really satisfying for you if Mac win because the FIA handicapped their cleverer rivals

[spacekid]

Relax guys ... its for our entertainment !! Thank FIA & Todt.
Do you want to see Vettel romp to the title with 4 races remaining?

Now we will have an equal battle of talents between Alonso / Hamilton and Vettel.
All good.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with this approach.

F1 is a team sport, where each teams produces their own car, and the driver is a part of that team. The one that gets the most attention, but still just a part.

What you are saying is that because one team has been smarter than the others and been able to get a clever system working, within the rules, and are beating the others... we should be happy for the rules to be changed mid way through a season just to make it more interesting?

I'm sorry but every time something like that happens it makes me love F1 a bit less. Its a joke of a way to operate a racing series.

[Scotracer]

Hold on to your butts