Bob Jane - MkII Jaguar

I was chatting with Thunder 427 yesterday and the topic on the Bob Jane Mk II and its relevant success was raised.

Pete Geoghegans 1st Mustang had a particularly high start/win ratio..... does anybody know what the BJ MkII start win ratio was?

Could it have been the winingest Mk II to have raced?

Does anybody have particularly fond memories of the car?.... Perhaps the classic Jane/Beechey clashes of the day......

I was chatting with Thunder 427 yesterday and the topic on the Bob Jane Mk II and its relevant success was raised.

Pete Geoghegans 1st Mustang had a particularly high start/win ratio..... does anybody know what the BJ MkII start win ratio was?

Could it have been the winingest Mk II to have raced?

Does anybody have particularly fond memories of the car?.... Perhaps the classic Jane/Beechey clashes of the day......

Just wish i had bought her when Tom L had her for sale.
Remember reading hour Bob hooked up the rice trailer to the Mk2 with the 300s on board and towed it up to Lakeside QLD and raced both cars.
Its fantastic that he owns her now.

Lakeside was the scene of its greatest defeat...

The ATCC of 1964, the last one it was likely to win, and it had clutch slip IIRC. A dreadful race for the hard chargers in the pack. Norm Beechey, Brian Muir, Jim McKeown all had troubles and the Cortina GT came through to win.

Lakeside was the scene of its greatest defeat...

I dunno...
Paul Fahey (Lotus-Cortina) had the measure of him at Pukekohe in 1965

Just wish i had bought her when Tom L had her for sale.
Remember reading hour Bob hooked up the rice trailer to the Mk2 with the 300s on board and towed it up to Lakeside QLD and raced both cars.
Its fantastic that he owns her now.

Ray i think it was pre that meeting,as by '64 the Masa was no longer raced.

Originally posted by David McKinney
I dunno...
Paul Fahey (Lotus-Cortina) had the measure of him at Pukekohe in 1965

He'd have been getting used to losing by then...

Went down to the Impala a few times in '63, S4s and Lotus Cortinas hurt his pride in '64, then Beechey's Mustang trouncing him early '65. Apart from which a number of go-faster bits had to come off that year.

Lola... I didn't mean that was the same meeting. It was always trailered by the end of '62.

The Pussycats were a spent force by the time that Cortinas came, yet alone the American V8s.
Apart from the cost though I am still surprised to seldom see a Jag running in Gp Nb. And these days most of the Mustangs have departed to Nc.

Cortinas gave them a hurry-up, that's for sure...

But Janey's biggest competitor in '64 was the S4 Holdens. They could outjump him off the grid and sometimes stay ahead of him. But he still won most of the races.

Was it taken to the UK for Bob to drive, or did he drive another over there?

Originally posted by Leo D
Was it taken to the UK for Bob to drive, or did he drive another over there?

He drove another one...

It was a regular race car, but Jane did some quick modifications to it for his race in it.

The Pussycats were a spent force by the time that Cortinas came, yet alone the American V8s.
Apart from the cost though I am still surprised to seldom see a Jag running in Gp Nb. And these days most of the Mustangs have departed to Nc.

Not true.

Jane's Mk2 saw off the Lotus Cortinas and Beecheys Impala to the extent that Sir Wlliam Lyons gave him a Lightweight E Type in appreciation.

Compare the Longford and Bathurst lap times and yes, it wasnt until the redneck V8's and the stupid CAMS regs arrived, that the MK 2's were forced into retirement

A straight ported headed triple SU'ed MK2 had a long life ahead of it, but CAMS thought otherwise.

I am always delighted to see a MK2 in historics because it shows some Australians still understand motor racing.

Karl

Not true.

Jane's Mk2 saw off the Lotus Cortinas and Beecheys Impala to the extent that Sir Wlliam Lyons gave him a Lightweight E Type in appreciation.

Compare the Longford and Bathurst lap times and yes, it wasnt until the redneck V8's and the stupid CAMS regs arrived, that the MK 2's were forced into retirement

A straight ported headed triple SU'ed MK2 had a long life ahead of it, but CAMS thought otherwise.

I am always delighted to see a MK2 in historics because it shows some Australians still understand motor racing.

Karl

Stan, lap times and race results are two different things. The Jags were quick no doubt but could not maintain the pace. As Ray said even the Holdens kept up. It seems even in the UK the Cortinas hunted pussycat. But the Mustangs were a different breed
Wernt the Jags webered even in those days?
And the E type had something going for it, lightweight!!

Out the gate, Warwick Farm 1965. Could that be Mr. Sykes supervising?

Edited by DJH, 22 January 2011 - 06:50.

Originally posted by KarlLeFong
Not true.

Jane's Mk2 saw off the Lotus Cortinas and Beecheys Impala to the extent that Sir Wlliam Lyons gave him a Lightweight E Type in appreciation.....

When did the E-type come on the scene?

.....Compare the Longford and Bathurst lap times and yes, it wasnt until the redneck V8s and the stupid CAMS regs arrived, that the MK 2s were forced into retirement

A straight ported headed triple SU'ed MK2 had a long life ahead of it, but CAMS thought otherwise.....

Where do you get that idea? What did the CAMS do?

Oh, yeah, new regulations, promulgated a year or more in advance. Just as they had done in 1960, wasn't it? Got rid of the Repco headed Holdens. But what did the 'Improved Production Touring' rules do to the Appendix J cars?

Well, it's true, they did eliminate the severely over-bored engines... put a limit of 0.040" on bores, stopped stroking (Bang! There goes the Holden red motor's chance!). But there was very little else.

So let's see... what would have happened without those changes?

The Mustangs would have arrived, the enterprising engineers would have bored them out further, stroked them, fought for a while to keep them intact, then blown the Jags into the weeds. And, in line with International regs, the restriction on 2-door cars was lifted.

Let's face it, the 'redneck V8s' had arrived before the rules... two full years before them IIRC. Beechey had the 409 Impala, he had a run or two in the Lukey Galaxie too. Both of those cars had troubled Jane, beaten him, despite their great bulk and weight and puny drum brakes.

What would have happened if the 2-door limit hadn't been lifted? I guess there'd be Falcon Sprints, or Dodge Darts, Pontiac GTOs or Chevy IIs with 327s.

.....I am always delighted to see a MK2 in historics because it shows some Australians still understand motor racing.

And I look forward to seeing a Dodge Phoenix thrashing them... probably followed home by an EH Holden...

But only because of your unreasonable attitude.

Not true.

Jane's Mk2 saw off the Lotus Cortinas and Beecheys Impala to the extent that Sir Wlliam Lyons gave him a Lightweight E Type in appreciation.

Compare the Longford and Bathurst lap times and yes, it wasnt until the redneck V8's and the stupid CAMS regs arrived, that the MK 2's were forced into retirement

A straight ported headed triple SU'ed MK2 had a long life ahead of it, but CAMS thought otherwise.

I am always delighted to see a MK2 in historics because it shows some Australians still understand motor racing.

Karl

Karl....Sir William Lyons had a great repect for the 'Larikin' from Australia,could see a lot of potential in his Driver/ability with a 'Get it Done' attitude,which Sir William admired,where as in the world Sir William mastered, it required numerous meetings to achieve results , where as these 'Bloody Australians', with no formal training 'Just made it'.......point here is the LWT.E.Type was 'Gifted 'to Bob Jane for the developement of the 4.2 Litre Jaguar engine, that the factory considered was impossible...so Bob and his trusted friend and Team Head Mechanic John Sawyer jumped on a plane to England with a bunch of 'Blueprints and a cylinder head in the 'suitcase'...knocked on the front door at Jaguar!!!!!...".Here have a look at this"...basically the rest is history......................with regards 427/MJ

NB; the Jaguar 'E' is not a subject we spend a lot of time discussing,to Bob its nealy as 'Hurtful' as loosing a close friend...........but then,that was another time and things where different then...........'Hindsight!!!

Edited by thunder427, 21 January 2011 - 13:59.

Might things have been different had that idiot not tried to drive the D-type off the top of Victoria Pass?

Bob was certainly crestfallen about that incident, where the M6B was first tried, but wouldn't start. Then the lightweight E... again, wouldn't fire. The D-type fired up and he drove it through the wall, through a shower of shards of plate glass...

He drove another one...

It was a regular race car, but Jane did some quick modifications to it for his race in it.

A Coombs car as raced by Roy Salvadori - it had been put into a dam at its previous start so the story goes, with Bob claiming the water was still leaking out as he tossed it about or was that when the English gentlemen racers nudged him, e.g Mike Parkes (went on to race F1 for Ferrari).

http://books.google....5...uar&f=false

Scroll down for the photos.

I dunno...
Paul Fahey (Lotus-Cortina) had the measure of him at Pukekohe in 1965

Got a link for the NZ races of the Jag David?

There was just that one I think Cav, at the 1965 NZ Grand Prix meeting at Pukekohe 9 January

Jane was fastest in practice, but Fahey in the Lotus-Cortina jumped him at the start and was able to hold him off for eight laps, when the Jag went out with piston trouble. Jane did however leave the country with the saloon lap record under his belt

Second place, 20 seconds behind Fahey's Lotus-Cortina, went to Ian Geoghegan in another

So the MkII never ran in 4.2 Ltr trim ?

Might things have been different had that idiot not tried to drive the D-type off the top of Victoria Pass?

Bob was certainly crestfallen about that incident, where the M6B was first tried, but wouldn't start. Then the lightweight E... again, wouldn't fire. The D-type fired up and he drove it through the wall, through a shower of shards of plate glass...

Sounds like there is a story there to tell. Ray. Don't leave us Poms in suspense, tell us more!

The Mk2 Jaguar was hamstrung by both CAMS Regs and by the very earliest sinister attempts by manufacturer's to interfere with the integrity of Australian motor racing.

Firstly CAMS Regs

The Mk2 was obliged to run with a B type head- in standard form 220hp.

And yes, Lee they were Webered, my error.

If Jane had been allowed to run a straight port head as per MK10 and E type, he would have have an extra 45hp in standard form and would have seen well over 350hp in full race trim.

Nevertheless, Jane did 148mph at Bathurst and his 1964 Mk2 laptimes were better than his 1965 Lotus Cortina times.

Now....manipulation

The original Armstrong 500 was decreed to be for "Australian Manufactured cars only", thereby ensuring, in one foul blow, the Jaguar Mk 2 was banned from the event.

This was a curious decision give that Jaguars were a fairly common sight on Australian roads and were well regarded by the Australian public generally and the decision was deliberate attempt to exclude Jaguar.

There is no doubt that the Mk2 would have won this "race" right through to the advent of the Falcon GT and possibly even up to and including, the Vauxhall XU1 era, but alas, the event was never allowed to be a truely honest motor race for production cars.

Of course, we can see the ultimate result of this manipulaton today, with the "Two Make Only" silhouette dodgem car racing which now masquerades as the ATCC......CAMS again?

It is easy to depict Bob Jane as the Aussie battler and the Brits as the stuffy prigs, but remember Lyons and his team created the the legend which is Jaguar and what happend out here although important, was essentially, incidental to the bigger picture.

Karl

A Coombs car as raced by Roy Salvadori - it had been put into a dam at its previous start so the story goes, with Bob claiming the water was still leaking out as he tossed it about or was that when the English gentlemen racers nudged him, e.g Mike Parkes (went on to race F1 for Ferrari).

Roy Salvadori did indeed put a Coombs Mk. II into the lake at Oulton that year but it was later than the Aintree meeting at which Bob Jane drove as replacement because Coombs drivers Salvadori and Graham Hill were driving in the British GP.

Autosport refers to Jane "weaving this way and that" and pointed out that his "driving was somewhat spectacular to say the least" in his attempts to maintain his lead. He later spun off. Mike Parkes nudged him? Sounds as though he deserved it!

Stan, lap times and race results are two different things. The Jags were quick no doubt but could not maintain the pace. As Ray said even the Holdens kept up. It seems even in the UK the Cortinas hunted pussycat. But the Mustangs were a different breed
Wernt the Jags webered even in those days?
And the E type had something going for it, lightweight!!

Seems as though the Jaguars stayed competitive in Oz longer than they did in the UK. As everyone knows nothing was ever the same again after Jack Sears turned up at Silverstone with a Galaxie. Cortina GTs were no competition but towards the end of 1963 when the Lotus Cortinas came out to play the top Jaguar drivers Graham Hill and Roy Salvadori had more or less defected to Galaxie drives. Mike Salmon tried his best but he had Jim Clark to contend with in the Lotus. Salmon's car was I guess overstretched and broke a couple of times. He actually led Olthoff and Salvo in Galaxies for a couple of laps at Brands before breaking a halfshaft. The Jags of course had the Galaxies beaten all ends up in the rain in the Brands 6 hours.

This thread seems to have broadened a bit so I'm re-posting this from the Aussie photos thread. Catalina 1962.

Sadly this is the only item left from my brother's vast collection of NSW 50s & 60s racing memorabilia.

I think it's Ron Hodgson and Ian or Leo Geoghegan through the Tunnel of Love at Catalina - or is Bill Pitt one of them? Fairly sure it's not David McKay but I'll leave to the experts. It was blown up from a Box Brownie snap and aborned our bedroom for years.

Originally posted by KarlLeFong
The Mk2 Jaguar was hamstrung by both CAMS Regs and by the very earliest sinister attempts by manufacturer's to interfere with the integrity of Australian motor racing.

Is that really you, Stan?

Firstly CAMS Regs

The Mk2 was obliged to run with a B type head- in standard form 220hp.

And yes, Lee they were Webered, my error.

If Jane had been allowed to run a straight port head as per MK10 and E type, he would have have an extra 45hp in standard form and would have seen well over 350hp in full race trim.

Nevertheless, Jane did 148mph at Bathurst and his 1964 Mk2 laptimes were better than his 1965 Lotus Cortina times.

Let's see... we are, are we not, talking about production cars going racing? So is there really anything wrong with asking them to use the original castings with which they were sold?

After all, this was the rule for everyone, and while it might have affected the Jag more than any other car, that was only because there were models of Jag that had another head.

The rules were an attempt to make for a level playing field, there was nothing unusual about them and nobody raised a stink about them at the time. They remained this way for many years to come, too.

Now....manipulation

The original Armstrong 500 was decreed to be for "Australian Manufactured cars only", thereby ensuring, in one foul blow, the Jaguar Mk 2 was banned from the event.

This was a curious decision give that Jaguars were a fairly common sight on Australian roads and were well regarded by the Australian public generally and the decision was deliberate attempt to exclude Jaguar.

There is no doubt that the Mk2 would have won this "race" right through to the advent of the Falcon GT and possibly even up to and including, the Vauxhall XU1 era, but alas, the event was never allowed to be a truely honest motor race for production cars.

Of course, we can see the ultimate result of this manipulaton today, with the "Two Make Only" silhouette dodgem car racing which now masquerades as the ATCC......CAMS again?

It is easy to depict Bob Jane as the Aussie battler and the Brits as the stuffy prigs, but remember Lyons and his team created the the legend which is Jaguar and what happened out here although important, was essentially, incidental to the bigger picture.

Ya gotta be kidding!

While I'm every bit as unhappy as you are with the 2-make stuff that goes on today, what has that got to do with the early days of the 500/1000? Absolutely nothing!

And neither did CAMS. It was not their decision to exclude cars not assembled in Australia from the race, that was Armstrong York's idea.

If that's really you, Stan, you should pull your head in and make reasonable argument instead of pushing your old favourite issues forward in the same way time after time.

Roy Salvadori did indeed put a Coombs Mk. II into the lake at Oulton that year but it was later than the Aintree meeting at which Bob Jane drove as replacement because Coombs drivers Salvadori and Graham Hill were driving in the British GP.

Autosport refers to Jane "weaving this way and that" and pointed out that his "driving was somewhat spectacular to say the least" in his attempts to maintain his lead. He later spun off. Mike Parkes nudged him? Sounds as though he deserved it!

&/or parochial reporting RCH.
Not sure Jack Sears was ever anti Brit, very pro Roger Clark when I met him during the 1968 London - Sydney Marathon after Clark cleaned the first Aus competitive stage at Lake King.

Then again Bob was no shrinking violet on the track.

&/or parochial reporting RCH.
Not sure Jack Sears was ever anti Brit, very pro Roger Clark when I met him during the 1968 London - Sydney Marathon after Clark cleaned the first Aus competitive stage at Lake King.

Then again Bob was no shrinking violet on the track.

Sorry, you'll have to explain that! Couldn't get your link to come up before, have just done so, seems Bob Jane was the one doing the complaining, Jack Sears didn't appear to see it that way.

Sorry, you'll have to explain that! Couldn't get your link to come up before, have just done so, seems Bob Jane was the one doing the complaining, Jack Sears didn't appear to see it that way.

As the one who took the photos in the extract from my Jack Sears biography I can assure you that Bob Jane was the aggrieved party. We talked about the incident over the phone about two years ago and he was as colourful as he usually is. I was the only photographer stupid enough to stand at Melling Crossing ( I think that was the corner) I saw the whole incident and in the first - where you see Bob sideways between Jack Sears and Michael Parkes - Parkes certainly nudged him from the back. In the second where you see Jane going over the kerbing and subsequently running across the grass it was a self inflicted mistake.

As the one who took the photos in the extract from my Jack Sears biography I can assure you that Bob Jane was the aggrieved party. We talked about the incident over the phone about two years ago and he was as colourful as he usually is. I was the only photographer stupid enough to stand at Melling Crossing ( I think that was the corner) I saw the whole incident and in the first - where you see Bob sideways between Jack Sears and Michael Parkes - Parkes certainly nudged him from the back. In the second where you see Jane going over the kerbing and subsequently running across the grass it was a self inflicted mistake.

I'm sure you're right! Was Jane's driving really as wild as Autosport suggests?

I'm sure you're right! Was Jane's driving really as wild as Autosport suggests?

Forceful but not "wild" in my interpretation. He was not going to let two English public schoolboys beat him. He was a typical gritty Aussie> Think Paul Hawkins.

This thread seems to have broadened a bit so I'm re-posting this from the Aussie photos thread. Catalina 1962.

Now that is the defenition of pig understeer, with the front tyres smoking. And the wire wheels flexing so much to give about 5 degrees more negative camber. And when the straightened out a bit the rears would probably flex that bad too.

Forceful but not "wild" in my interpretation. He was not going to let two English public schoolboys beat him. He was a typical gritty Aussie> Think Paul Hawkins.

Great to have your views to add to those great pictures Graham.

I understand one of the Coombs cars (BUY1) runs at Goodwood, am I correct. Any idea if the car Bob drove back then exists. Did the number plates stay with the cars?

Great to have your views to add to those great pictures Graham.

I understand one of the Coombs cars (BUY1) runs at Goodwood, am I correct. Any idea if the car Bob drove back then exists. Did the number plates stay with the cars?

John Coombs tended to swap BUY 1 around amongst his cars. I believe I'm right in saying the car it is on now is a Mk.1 which was driven by Salvadori. I've not heard much about the current whereabouts of the genuine racing Mk IIs but presumably someone knows where they are?

Jane hard at work in the MK2



Karl

Jane hard at work in the MK2



Karl

i was reading Les Hughes book last night "Jaguar under the Southern Cross"
BJ had a lot of engine failures while they soughted out the 4.1l engine.

I was the only photographer stupid enough to stand at Melling Crossing ( I think that was the corner) I saw the whole incident and in the first - where you see Bob sideways between Jack Sears and Michael Parkes - Parkes certainly nudged him from the back. In the second where you see Jane going over the kerbing and subsequently running across the grass it was a self inflicted mistake.

I think the broken taillight in the last shot of Bob from the rear tells a story.

Mu understanding is that the BUY1 that races now hadn't seen a circuit until ten years or so ago...

Racing Car News - October 1968 classifieds.

EX-Bob JANE 3.8 Jaguar, now resprayed in red duco. Fully reconditioned engine, three double choke Webers. Now performing better than ever. Holding class record at Longford 2:55.8. Price $3950, including 4 sets racing tyres, spare diff, and many other spare parts. Will consider trade-in, Finance available. Bruno Carosi, Launceston.


Stephen

Racing Car News - October 1968 classifieds.

EX-Bob JANE 3.8 Jaguar, now resprayed in red duco. Fully reconditioned engine, three double choke Webers. Now performing better than ever. Holding class record at Longford 2:55.8. Price $3950, including 4 sets racing tyres, spare diff, and many other spare parts. Will consider trade-in, Finance available. Bruno Carosi, Launceston.


Stephen

Then years latter the late John Armitage own it and began the resto.

I guess that would be John Armitage, who ran Autosport in Whitehorse Rd, Box Hill. Next to IIRC, Bert Flood Motorcycles.

Stephen

I guess that would be John Armitage, who ran Autosport in Whitehorse Rd, Box Hill. Next to IIRC, Bert Flood Motorcycles.

Stephen

spot on,when ever I went in and ask about the mark2,it was always making slow progress,I do remember John telling me that Graham Facey gad done the exhaust headers.
good style of person John,passed away far to young.
Bert Flood whom owned a Ferrari Daytona.

Mu understanding is that the BUY1 that races now hadn't seen a circuit until ten years or so ago...

Oh dear, I was fondly thinking that was a genuine old racer if not the one normally associated with BUY 1.

Going OT a little could I make a plea to the powers that be that in 2012 when the St Mary's Trophy runs at Goodwood for pre-60 cars we are allowed to see Mk Is racing as they did pre 1960? It seems absurd that "hot rod" A35s etc are allowed but Jaguars are presumably restricted to 2.4 litres. Sorry David not your fault but I just thought it was an opportunity to get that one off my chest.

Here is a shot from the oldracephotos library of the Bob Jane Jag's engine bay when David Keep (on of our photographer's) owned it. He didn't race it and I'm not sure how long he kept it for. Would have been a killer road car back then. I only scanned this shot but he had another neg shot from the rear
as well.

Certainly looks like it was red on the outside by the time the photo was taken. So does that mean David purchased it from, or sold it to, Bruno Carosi? As per advert in RCN Oct 68 issue - see post 39 or 40. David can't have had much money left for film after keeping those triple Webers well fed!

At least all this is helping put all the ownership of the car together.

If the engine bay shot is pretty much how BJ raced it, then this photo has possibly just given thunder427 something to do.

Stephen

I'm pretty sure Carosi was the next from Jane to own it... or did Hugh Bryson have it for a short while before it went to Tassie?

I recall that Carosi clipped a fence at Longford in it and was dragging several yards of pig-wire mesh behind him after that. He drove over close to the pits and one of his crew jumped out to try and pull the wire out... as in jump on the wire. Fortunately for him, Carosi and motor racing in general, he missed!

Certainly looks like it was red on the outside by the time the photo was taken.
Stephen

Looks like it was definitely red when it came to Tassie.





And it appears that Bruno Carosi did buy it from Bob Jane, according to the 'Our Cover' bit.

Edited by GeoffR, 25 January 2011 - 11:15.

The other day when I found the Carosi advert in RCN October 1968, it rang a bell that I had seen the Bob Jane car for sale before. But couldn't pinpoint it again. After seeing Hugh Bryson's name mentioned I've ferreted through a bit more and it has turned up.

Racing Car News, May 1966 Classifieds.

The ex Bob Jane 3.8 litre Jaguar. Appendix C. Ready to race, recently overhauled. One of the fastest and reliable touring cars in Australia. Offers competitive racing at low maintenance cost. Price $4200.
Apply - Bryson Industries Limited, Jaguar Cars, 192 Exhibition Street, Melbourne.

So thus far it looks like ownership - Bob Jane, Hugh Bryson (son of Bryson boss, Jack. He died in a car crash, near Gunnedah. Aged 22 - 13/8/66), Bruno Carosi, David Keep, John Armitage, Bob Jane. Who else needs to be slotted in?

Stephen

I will give David a call and see if I can get some more details from him. The "Repco Holden" in Carosi's Bolwell is interesting - hadn't heard that one before.

I will give David a call and see if I can get some more details from him. The "Repco Holden" in Carosi's Bolwell is interesting - hadn't heard that one before.

The Bolwell had a 179 Holden

Jag heading for pit lane with length of plain wire attached. (Single frame shot of my 8mm movie)