Buenos Aires GP

Great post, Félix, thanks!

Felix Muelas wrote :
<(mentions to the Maseratis in the cases of both Oscar Cabalén and Jose Froilán Gonzalez leads to believe that not only Fangio made the guess appearances at the wheel of both the Chimeri 250F and the Camoradi Behra-Porsche, but also these two drove Maseratis. My guess is that Cabalen drove Creus' car...and did not like it! Another option is that he drove Munaron's...)>

I bet that Cabalen practised the Camoradi Maserati 250F, yet wheeled by Násif in the Argentinian GP.

Nasif Estéfano's 250F in the Argentine GP was a Scuderia Centro-Sud entry, not the Camoradi car. Which is not to say it Cabalen didn't try the ex-Estéfano mount at Córdoba

I am aware that the Mercedes SS, SSK and SSKLs ran with the fenders removed in GP events...

Thanks,
Stu

Still no sign of a circuit map for Cordoba........

David McKinney wrote :


Paul Sheldon's black book indicates Estéfano as a Camoradi USA entry.

But, jumping to the Bollée book on Lucky Casner, it reads that late 1959 the Camoradi 250F (chassis 2529) was sold.

So, can't we understand that :

1. The Camoradi 250F was sold to the Scuderia Centro-Sude (Paul allocated chassis 2529 to Giorgio Scarlatti in the GP)
2. Casner having submitted an entry in the GP, also sold (or gave) it to Centro-Sud
3. Getting hence an additional entry in the GP, Centro-Sud loaned it to a local boy (Estéfano) both for the GP and the Buenos Aires race, allowing another (Cabalen) to train it in practice.

Am I right, David ?

Argentina was always the most difficult geographical area for sorting out which 250F was which, largely because it was too expensive in those days for the journalists familiar with the cars' identities to travel halfway across the world to cover the Temporada. This has led to considerable confusion over the years, confusion which is only now beginning to be cleared, thanks to detailed research - notably by my Canadian friend Barrie Hobkirk. The numbers published by Sheldon for the 1956 Argentine GP, for example, are probably those recorded by the factory, or those that someone on the spot copied from the number tags on the instrument panels. However, between the time the shipping paperwork was done for that trip and the actual race, different cars became available. What's easier - submitting new paperwork to the authorities and leaving yourself open to all sorts of cross-examination, or simply switching chassis-plates?
As far as the 1960 races are concerned, the Sheldon information (source unknown) has now been overtaken by later research. Scarlatti's mount was one of the Piccolos (2533) entered for the occasion by Centro-Sud and Estéfano's an older car cobbled together by the same team from 2506 (but numbered 2511!). The Camoradi car (2529) stayed where it was, in the US of A. I don't think it was sold until later, so it could be that it was entered for the Argentine GP (the team was after all in Argentina at the time), though it seems certain it did not make an appearance there.

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Still no sign of a circuit map for Cordoba........

Still working on it...don´t despair!!
Thanks to Mauro Pedranti taking a snapshot (no photocopying allowed) of the "La Voz del Interior" -a newspaper from Córdoba- we can have an idea...



More to follow, Mauro is now inspecting two more local sources (in one of them, the presence of Antonio Creus at the wheel of a 250F -race number #12- is confirmed, an interview with him and a picture at the local airport suggests beyond reasonable doubt that he, too, was at the race...

Still no sign of a circuit map for Cordoba........

I have a map of a Cordoba track here:

http://user.tninet.s...91w/F268_19.htm

But I am sure this is not the right one, this track was probably built in the 60's.

Stefan

The thick plottens!

Clearly Stefan's map is a different circuit; the fastest lap of 56.9 in an F2 car confirms it to be a different place.

However, that super image posted by Felix showing the cars sweeping downhill through as S-bend does not look as though it comes from the circuit that we see on the newspaper. That track looks more like a 'city block' type street circuit, whereas the one in the image looks more road circuity to me.

Anyway, Felix, many thanks for pursuing this conundrum and all power to you in the search.

The Oscar Calblen (sp?) circuit first heard of for the 1968 F2 Temporada is AFAIK the one still in use today. The one used in 1960 was in a city park.

from Stefan Ornerdal

http://user.tninet.s...91w/F268_19.htm

But I am sure this is not the right one, this track was probably built in the 60's.[/B]

Turing the practise for the Cordoba F2 race 1968 the Oscar Calblen circuit was still under construction, it’s been only finished the track asphalt (with some problems on first practise), al ways around was still in natural state.
I have a video (from Swiss Italian TV TSI produced from amateur film from Silvio Moser), some picture from the 1964 Junior race on Cordoba lucks similar to the track in the newspaper (from Felix Muelas), may be it’s the same used before.

I think you need help from some argentine friends or also Automobil Club.
On other way to find the track with the using of an old city map, searching the situation seeing on the newspaper one.

Does anybody have details about the 1959 edition of the BAGP - the one held to Argentine/Brazilian Mechanica Nacional/Continental rules? What I know about that race is that it was won by Jesus Ricardo Iglesias, with his Chevrolet-Wayne. The two fastest qualifiers, Froilan Gonzalez and Fritz d'Orey, both with Ferrari-Corvettes retired ...
The BAGP was the third, and final race in the 1958/59 Torneiro Triangular series: Anything known about race one - Interlagos, Brazil, 30 November 1958 - or two - El Pinar, Uruguay, 11 January 1959???
Many thanks in advance!!!

There are a number of confusing anomalies surrounding the 1960 race in Cordoba.

I am attempting to untangle them as this race is the next one on my 1960 F.1 calendar.

For a start, Darren's website shows 14 runners, with Laretta's Lotus 16 also listed but shown as having broken a half shaft in the warm up so he was a DNS.

There is no mention whatsoever of Nasif or Estefano (what IS the correct way around for that guy's name?) in Darren's results.

The practice list above shows Stacey in a Lotus but Darren only shows Stacey as having shared a 250.F with Antonio Creus.

Darren's result shows Menditeguy in 6th place at the end but also as retired on lap 30 with gearbox trouble.

I wondered if one of these Menditeguy was actually Bonomi as he is shown in a Cooper Maserati in the practice times but Darren has him sharing the Behra Porsche with Gregory.

Darren's site also has no mention of Oscar Cabalen, Ettore Chimeri or Scarlatti.

I know that race details from years ago do sometimes differ slightly but this seems an amazing lot of variation - even to the extent that it looks like two different races.

Oh yes, one other thing. Somewhere along the way I have managed to find a circuit plan of this park track, and the statue that the drivers could choose their own path around, is clearly visible on Google Earth. However, there is a discrepancy of something like 300 meters between the given circuit length and the one that I have drawn on G.E.

This must be one of the most confusing races ever.

•The 2010 revision of the Black Book lists 16 starters, plus Rodriguez Larretta as a non-starter
•Stacey was definitely in a works Lotus
•There appear to have been only five finishers. Menditeguy retired on lap 30 (gearbox) then took over Bonomi's sister Cooper-Maserati but that, too, retired (after 63 laps)
•Chimeri finished fourth in the Ecurie Sorocaima 250F
•Cabalen was not an entry
•Scarlatti (Centro-Sud 250F), although not named on the grid and listed as DNA, was apparently an early retirement

Very interesting, David, thanks for that.

So... I wonder why the alleged practice times listed above show a time for Cabalen.

I should have made myself clearer
The points I listed (except the Scarlatti one) are all from the Black Book, which even the compilers would admit is not infallible - just as accurate as it can be (and more so than most websites)
Cabalen may indeed have been an entry, for some reason missed by F1R

Bonnier had actually retired after 50 laps, but when so many others had to give up, he climbed in the car again and did the last three laps to finish 5th, 22 laps behind.

Here are some pictures (Looks like Gonzalez in the#49):
http://www.informesy...arque-sarmiento

If it is Gonzalez - and I certainly think it is - it proves this was not a Formula 1 race, as his car by then was powered by Corvette

I thought it was always known to be a Formule Libre race.

I'd like to know F1R's reasons for not listing Scarlatti as a starter; the practice time posted above by Felix Muelas and the contemporary Autosport report both include him.

My reason for making the point was that (a) Barry is concentrating on F1 races and (b) F1R excludes libre races

Very true, David, but in this case....

I'm fascinated by that Ferrari-Corvette, #49, because I can't make out what sort of Ferrari chassis that is.

500/625 - supplied with the 'Argentine-type' bodywork as raced in 1955

Wow! That old?

The car was discussed in this thread, but as usual the photos are no longer available:

Gonzalez and his Ferrari-Chev (merged)

First, the race at Cordoba in 1960.
Surely this was a Formula Libre race. The question is if it was scheduled as that!
According to what I know, Ferrari was fairly disgusted by the outcome of the Argentine GP, and withdraw its entry from the Buenos Aires GP. I have never seen an (original) entry list, but surely this meant a reduction of participants - did the Mecanica Nacional cars only come in after that?
The best report on the 1960 BsAs GP at Cordoba I know is given by Eduardo Gesumaria in his 'Historia del Automovilismo de Cordoba' (published B Editores, Cordoba 1986), pp. 352-354. Accordingly 25 entries were expected, but finally there were only 15 starters. A number of Argentine drivers tried to participate in the race, we learn: Menditeguy (Cooper-Maserati), Bonomi (Cooper-Maserati) Rodriguez Larreta (Lotus-Climax) Estefano (Maserati) and Oscar Cabalen (Maserati).
Originally the Governor of the Cordoba had tried to get a Ferrari for Cabalen, but after Ferrari did no come, the local guy ended up with Munaron's Maserati. However, Cabalen was rather slow with the car, and so he decided not to start. Estefano had a try with a Scuderia Sud Maserati, but prefered his trusted Chevrolet-Wayne!
No grid is given in Gesumaria, but he clearly states there were 15 cars prepared for the start. Now it's up to you: Rodriguez Larreta broke down at the start, and Ireland did not finish the first lap. Apart from the well known finishers this leaves 8 retirements:
Scarlatti, in 4th lap
Estefano, in 11th lap
Gregory, in 17th lap
Schell, in 24th lap
McLaren, in 29th lap
Brabham, in 40th lap
Menditeguy/Bonomi, in 63rd lap
and
Stacey, 67th lap.

Second, the Gonzalez Ferrari-Corvette.
According to Jose-Froilan Gonzalez/Roberto Carozzo, 'Una Pasion Sobre Ruedas' (2nd Ed., Fundacion Jose-Froilan Gonzalez, Buenos Aires, 2007), the chassis was 'un viejo chasis Ferrari de la Formula de 1951, de la era de los motores de 4 litros y medio.' (p. 168) ... but, we read, due to Ferrari economics, later rebuild for use in Formula 2 ... at the time known under s/n 0482 ...

PS: Anybody around with some details on what was probably the last victory of the Gonzalez Ferrari-Corvette in Argentinian Mecanica Nacional at Mendoza in 1962? That has been the GP Vendimia on 6th of May 1962, when the car was driven by Albert Rodriguez Larreta. Yes, please?

Edited by O Volante, 18 March 2013 - 20:17.

'un viejo chasis Ferrari de la Formula de 1951, de la era de los motores de 4 litros y medio.' (p. 168) ... but, we read, due to Ferrari economics, later rebuild for use in Formula 2 ... at the time known under s/n 0482 ...

Actually Tipo 500 No.3, subsequently given a 625 engine for the 1954 Formula 1, but not renumbered 0482 (in the customer-number sequence) until sold to Peter Whitehead, with 750 engine, later that year

Well, correcting typos etc. in what I had just written above, I started to miss Gonzalez in my suggested results ...
Re-reading Gesumaria, I found that he credits
- Gonzalez with retirement after 11 laps due to mechanical problems
and
- Creus with retirement after 7 laps
in the text - but not in his closing tables ...
Sorry for confusion!
Well, in this context, Creus is rather a mystery. Besides Gonzalez, I'm rather missing Menditeguy, who is said to have had gear box trouble, to retire his car and to take over Bonomi's, only to retire again, as said above, after 62 laps ... So 15 starters plus Larreta & Ireland?

According to Gonzalez/Carozzo, the s/n 0482 was made public by 'la revista argentina "Motor"' after the chassis was imported ...

That makes sense

It's the number stamped on the main chassis tube, to this day

A while ago I aquired printed reports taken from Argentine newspapers La Nation (The Nation) La Prensa (The Press) Clarion (Bugle) giving practice times on Argentine Grand Prix's 1953-1958, 1960.

Although the text is in Spanish it is easy to read drivers times. The information is basic giving only drivers name, car type and best time recorded. It does not give entry number, entrant, car type (or chassis number).

The 1960 Argentine GP practice times show some interesting driver times.

Wednesday 3rd February

Alberto Laretta (Maserati) 1'58.4" (he would race a Team Lotus, Lotus 16 in official Saturday practice and GP)
Pedro Llano (Maserati) 1'58.7"

In both cases the car used would have been a Maserati 250F

Thursday 4th February

Julio Pola (Maserati) 2'04.6" (again the car would have been a Maserati 250F)

Saturday 6th February.

All drivers times 'mirror' starting grid shown in Mike Lang's 'Grand Prix, Volume 1' book and Paul Sheldons latest version of his 'black book' with exception of W.von Trips 1'39.2" (both starting grids show 1'39.0") It also records Oscar Cabalen (Maserati) time 1'50.3" with a note stating he was reserve driver for Nasif Estefano entry (who raced entrant no 10, Maserati 250F). As this was an official practice session for the Grand Prix it would appear to show a driver that is not shown in any of the usual record books as a GP non qualifier (such as Steve Small's 'Grand Prix Who's Who' book).

I tried to follow this up by approaching Argentine author Guillermo Sanchez (who wrote 'Fuerza Libre - 1919-1942 Grand Prix, Sports Cars & Specials-Racing in the Pampas') to try and find any other reference to Oscar Cabalen participation in 1960 Argentine GP. Although he checked El Grafico, Velocidad & Rugir de Motores magazines as well as Argentine Motorsport Club in Buenos Aires (very poor records kept I believe) he could not find any reference to Cabalen. This is strange as you would have thought that local journalists would have recognised a local (Argentine) driver.

Now looking at GRAN PREMIO DE BUENOS AIRES race held at Cordoba on 14th February 1960.

Guillermo read Oscar Cabalen's biography 'Oscar Cabalen El Idolo' by Eduardo Gesumaria. He could find no reference to Cabalen practicing at Argentine GP, but it did state he practiced Antonio Creus (Maserati 250F) with a best time of 1'36.3", but he decided not to take part in the race, because of the cars lack of performance. It als mentions that Alcides Raines (Cabalen's manager) asked Enzo Ferrari for a car, but the Italian answered they had not been invited to race at Cordoba

This is my understanding (an updated snapshot from FORIX) of the several printed local reports that have been mentioned (in relation to the Argentine Grand Prix). Hope it makes some sense, as it actually is backed by printed reports in all cases

Hello, (new here...)

I'm looking for details on the 1930 Gran Premio de Buenos Aires and the 1932 Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires. The little that I could find so far was a 1932 Buenos Aires race list (Mecánica Nacional) at the informulas dot com dot ar site.
Can someone help please?

 

Also, I find the various names for the BA Costanera circuit confusing:
At the Pre-War South American "Grands Prix" thread, O Volante lists the 1936 BA GP at "Costanera Sur"
on the 1st page of this thread, David McKinney lists: 1932 Avenida Costanera (Premio Ciudad de BA) : Domingo Bucci and  1936 Costanera Sur (1st GP Ciudad BA) : Carlos Arzani
Leif Snellman (Golden Era of GP/1936/GRAN PREMIO CIUDAD DE BUENOS AIRES) calls the 1936 circuit "costanera Norte" with a track lenght about the same as listed for the 1951 GP at Costanera Norte.
The Juan-Augusto MALCOLM page at pilotos Muertos lists the 1932 BA Gp at "Costanera Sur"...?

Does anyone know what the difference between Costanera Norte and "Sur" is? were they indeed different circuits and if yes, does anyone know details for Costanera Sur (or "Avenida")?

The Buenos Aires GP of 1930 appears to me to be one of those fictional events which - through a sort of Chinese whispers process - has become accepted as fact. Jimmy Piget's list suggests that it was run on January 12th at Costanera and won by Juan Malcolm in his Delage 2LCV.

 

However, the January 13th issue of the Santa Fe newspaper El Orden has a photograph - but no report - showing the finish of the 'Carrera Rosario-Santa Fe' - presumably the previous day. This event appears to be identical with the 'Rosario-Santa Fe-Rosario', won by Lalo Destéfano, whose picture can be found in the January 18th issue of the Buenos Aires news magazine Caras y Caretas. On the same page there are pictures of the Carrera Standard del Chivilcoy Automovil Club - won by Juan Malcolm (but in a Mercedes).

 

http://www.santafe.g...tal/diario/694/ (it's a very clunky interface - expand the view by clicking on the white square top left and then navigate to page 3)

 

http://hemerotecadig...search=&lang=en (page 75)

 

Going back to Jimmy's list, we see a 'GP Provincia de Buenos Aires' listed as having been run at Chivilcoy on December 15th 1929, won by Raúl Riganti in a Hudson adaptado. However, this appears to be a further confusion with the 1929 Gran Premio Nacional!

 

http://hemerotecadig...search=&lang=en (page 75)

 

"Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance"?

Thanks 2nd Gear...  I'm nor surprised to see you mention the Jan.12 Rosario race,  Chivilcoy Automovil Club, Gran Premio Nacional (Buenos Aires-Cordoba-Buenos Aires). Almost all my searches have come up with links that point to those events plus the Automovilismo, Gran Premio Nacional , Buenos Aires (El Litoral, 25 de Enero de 1930) and Domingo Bucci mentions the 1929 races as among his important races (scuderia Bucci dot com / PDF brochure). Because some believe that the 1930 and 1932 BA Costanera races were Sports Car events, I've looked around for Sports Car specific data and all I can come up with is the list published at  informulas dot com dot ar. They list only one Buenos Aires event for 1930, won by Domingo Bucci / Desoto (no date or exact location given) and the following for 1932 (Nuestro automovilismo y Mecánica Nacional: Carreras (1899-1941) :

 

 3/6 Gran Premio “Ciudad de Buenos Aires”-Categoría “A” Buenos Aires Domingo Bucci De Soto
 3/6 Gran Premio “Ciudad de Buenos Aires”-Categoría “B” Buenos Aires Juan Malcolm Maserati
 3/6 Gran Premio “Ciudad de Buenos Aires”-Fuerza Libre Buenos Aires Domingo Bucci De Soto
 5/6 Categoría “A” Buenos Aires Domingo Bucci De Soto
 5/6 Categoría “B” Buenos Aires Victorio Cóppoli Bugatti
 10/7 Fuerza Limitada Arrecifes Eduardo Pedrazzini Ford
 4/8 Reunión Apertura del Autódromo de San Martín Buenos Aires Domingo Bucci De Soto

 

Again, no trace of anything for January 12, 1930 or October 5, 1932 at BA. It appears that things were like you suggest, namely that dates and names of races were inadvertently swapped for different events at different times and once somebody posts such data (in good faith), everybody seems to take it for gospel and copy it to their database (very much like the mythical 1942 Buenos Aires Grand Prix with the same results from 1941).

 

Thanks again for digging...

 

btw, "lost a quid 'n 2 bob..    got threepence... still wanna dance? (lol)

I would expect any study of racing in this period in Argentina to start with Guillermo Sanchez' masterly book "Fuerza Libre 1919-1942"

http://www.bonvivant...uerzalibre.html

 

Have you consulted it?