FIA GT from 2012 onwards

It's shouldn't be a big surprise for anyone, but FIA GT1 is slowly - but surely - dying. Why?

1) Cars are rapidly ageing and only Nissan, Lambo and Ford are homologated for next year - no-one else has shown any interest whatsoever
2) After ACO finally dropped GT1 from Le Mans and it's associated series, the world championship is now the only place to run these cars
3) Only four cars from single manufacturer are allowed to take part - next year this will be reduced to TWO!! No new manufacturer in their right mind would invest in this series!
4) Factory entries are forbidden
5) Apart from Nissan, there hasn't been any factory interest in years
6) Apart from Nissan, there hasn't been any new cars in years (R-SV and Ford GT1 could be considered as re-modifications)
7) Sprint race format means a LOT crash damage= teams already complaining
8) Insane, totally unfair Bop-tweakings won't please everyone (see Nissan's complains last year)

On top of that, the current cars have not only lost their durability in longer endurance races (as last year sadly proved), but also lost huge amount of downright speed they once had. Nowadays GT2s (and even GT3s) would out-run most of these machines in a straight fight.

2012 is coming - what would you do with the series?

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 May 2011 - 23:22.

Observations from my position of limited knowledge :

Too much top-down control and rules formulated to guarantee 'the racing' ends up suffocating the competitors, who in sports car racing need the flexibility to accommodate varying approaches. Probably all series featuring a variety of different machinery require some sort of competitive balancing but this is not the way to do it. It pisses off everyone and looks cheap. It only works in NASCAR because the France family have total control of 'the show', which is reliant on other things than technical excellence (though running a pushrod V8 for 500 miles certainly needs plenty of that).

The GT2 Le Mans class has probably provided the most exciting racing of the last few years. Would a standalone championship bring it better publicity, or stretch too thin and then bury a very good class of racing?

What's the Blancpain series like?

Is the GT field strong/deep/rich enough to support a whole world championship? Flying off to places like Suzuka and Interlagos didn't help the ITCC. Or F3000, for that matter.

Bring back the 935!

Edited by Risil, 08 May 2011 - 23:29.

they could use more derestricted gt3 cars, and have the gt3's race at the same time.
and longer race(s). its stupid you have a qualy race for half points and then a feature for full, if there the same bloody length/distance.

1h sprint then 2,3,4h feature

What's the Blancpain series like?

It's basically what FIA GT was 10 years ago, but GT1 and GT2 have been replaced by heavily performance balanced GT3 and GT4 machinery (and nonsensical class structure). Lacks atmosphere, but at least they have Spa 24.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 08 May 2011 - 23:32.

I'd open it right up, sod all this 'brand' nonsense. Look at the GT3 Championship, there's so many different cars there, because essentially it's an open championship set to a certain formula. None of this minimum amount of cars, maximum per team/manufacturer rubbish.

If they made the series a 'GT' series, where GTE was the main regulation, and GT1/GT3 cars could be adapted to fit this one-size-fits-all regulation with air restrictors, larger wings etc. you'd get something that is a full FIA championship, with the kudos and prestige that entails. You'd get an excellent range of circuits in good markets for the companies that make the cars, like the Middle East, Europe, China, plus add in a US round.

Imagine having:

Mercedes SLS (GT3)
Porsche 911 (GT-everything)
BMW Z4 (GT3)
Audi R8 LMS (GT3)
Nissan GTR (GT1)
Ferrari 458 (GT-everything)
Ferrari F430 (GTE)
Lotus Evora (GTE)
BMW M3 (GTE)
McLaren MP4-12C (GT3)
Aston Martin DBR9/DBRS9 (GT-everything)
Lamborghini Murcielago/Gallardo (GT1/3)
Chevrolet Corvette (GT-everything)
Jaguar XKR (GTE)

all competing under one set of rules...

At these circuits:

San Luis - ARG
Portimao - POR
Spa - BEL
Silverstone - GBR
Yas Marina - UAE
Suzuka/Motegi/Fuji - JAP
Zhuhai/Ordos/Shanghai - CHN
Road America - USA
Paul Ricard - FRA
Istanbul Park - TUR (If F1 doesn't go back)

You'd have a diverse series that works efforts would be interested in, and could compete in with very little extra development work compared to their programmes in LMS, ALMS or whatever series they are competing in. Keep it as an open entry and you'd probably see cars like the Alpina, Morgan, Ascari and others come out of the woodwork too...

Edited by DanardiF1, 08 May 2011 - 23:40.

The GT2 Le Mans class has probably provided the most exciting racing of the last few years. Would a standalone championship bring it better publicity, or stretch too thin and then bury a very good class of racing?

SRO only favours private / semi-works entries, so we most certainly wouldn't see such fantastic battles as in ALMS and Le Mans. But at least there are plenty of models and interest in GTE.

However. As FIA GT2 is officially dead and Ratel is clearly pushing his precious GT3s forward all the time, we can pretty much forget this whole scenario altogether.

Like I said in the original thread that I started in 2009 - this is one of the biggest jokes in motorsport history - bound to fail.

Why have driver changes in one-hour races?
Why have penalty weights?
Why all restrictions?
Why not allow upgraded Ferraris and Porsches participate?

from what i understand gt3 and gt1 regs where made more open (in some ways) so more cars could compete, and be less of a racecar with carbody panels (which the old gt1 was kinda like that..)

gt2 is more restricted

God, why does the FIA do so much ****ing around with Sportscar racing.

They nearly wiped it out in the early 90's.

It is a mess, FIA GT1, GT3, Blancpain Endurance, all SRO series...

Then ALMS, LMS, ILMC.......all ACO....

and never the twain shall meet.

I watched the Blancpain race in Monza, and really liked what i saw. One thing i hate is the endless adjusting of BoP. Different cars have different strengths, and that is part of the excitment in GT racing.

Personally I think what the SRO need to do is drop the World bit from the Championship for a start. Right now, with just 18 cars taking part in it, it's not worth the costs of doing the flyaway races or going to San Luis, even if the circuit is fantastic. Considering all the teams are European anyway, it needs to go back to being a European Championship for a year or so until entries get higher again. One of the main gripes the other year was about the costs of going around the world and the SRO came to an agreement where they'd pay some of it for the teams themselves; surely though, if the races are all closer to home that's one less major cost to worry about?

The other thing is that the GT1's need a bit more grunt. Right now they aren't much quicker than a GT2 so where's the point in developing a brand new GT1 car that can only be run in one championship, where as if you get a GT2 you've got ALMS, ILMC and Intl. GT Open amongst others to race in. It doesn't work out. If they made them quicker like the older cars where, and give them a seperate class back at the ILMC and such, you'd get more manufactuers looking at the class. They don't have to be full on GT Prototypes like the older cars where, but just making them have that 3-5 second advantage over the GT2's and you'd be there.

They could also relax on the whole "Must have 4 cars" ruling and just change it to teams of two. If it was the latter ruling, we'd have the Maserati's racing this year but because Vitaphone couldn't get the other two cars run, we've lost them. It's actually a very silly rule when you think about it. There's all these cars still out there - Reiter's old Murcielago R-GT's, the numerous Saleen's, Vitaphone's MC12's and even the older F550's and F575; all of them are quite capable to run in this championship, yet none of them allowed to. Heck they'd get a few more cars running if they just allowed in the older cars but let them be amatuer drivers and put them as GT1-AM.

And like Jeze said; having it as a sprint race doesn't help. The Championship race should be at least two hours if they plan on having driver changes and ballast. It's been good racing in the format so far, but from a teams point of view it's got to be more costly with all the repairs due to the sprint race nature.

also flying around the world to have a hour~ in a race is abit disapointing.

also the max is 4 cars of same type, and min is 4 cars of same type.... and 2 car teams.

Surely it would be a bit silly having the 550's and 575's run when there outdated by two models now? For me it would better to just de-rez a 458 GTE. Unless they can make a homologated version of the 599. (I know what the 'GTO means! no need to point that out)

Its strange that there are a few cars out there that could be made to GT1 spec. The Koeningsegg CCX1 GT was GT1 wasnt it? And look at things like the Pagani Zonda R (not sure if thats the correct one, its the one thats a race car that doesn't fit to any rules) and the Honda NSX replacement. None of them are being homologated though.

They should try and get in with other series. Japan has a great GT scene.

GT is a bit of a mess anyways. Take BMW for example. Their flagship, top of the range perfomance car, the M6, competes in GT3, the lowest proper class. Their entry level performance car, the M3, races in GT2. Its plain daft. Thier are similar examples with Porsche and Dodge. Very frustrating as a long time GT/Sportscar fan.

They could also relax on the whole "Must have 4 cars" ruling and just change it to teams of two. If it was the latter ruling, we'd have the Maserati's racing this year but because Vitaphone couldn't get the other two cars run, we've lost them. It's actually a very silly rule when you think about it. There's all these cars still out there - Reiter's old Murcielago R-GT's, the numerous Saleen's, Vitaphone's MC12's and even the older F550's and F575; all of them are quite capable to run in this championship, yet none of them allowed to.

Saleen is actually still homologated for this year - see the regs - but I don't think there was enough interest in the first place. Also, only two of the S7-Rs have been upgraded (= downgraded) to new spec. MC-12's case is strange, seeing as this year Corvette got in with only two C6.Rs...

"Must have 4 cars" will be even more ludicrous next year, when you can only enter two cars/brand. I'm sorry Stephane, but that's is just BS.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 09 May 2011 - 12:46.

The Koeningsegg CCX1 GT was GT1 wasnt it?

Yes, but that silly thing never raced anywhere.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 09 May 2011 - 12:51.

I quite like the current format (although the BoP will always be controversial), but the field is definitely too thin at the moment, with no signs of expansion. I would therefore vote for opening the competition up to GT2 and GT3 cars as well. It's a shame the series couldn't build on 2010, as I think having the additional marque (Maserati) made a big difference.

GT3/GT4/GTE seems to be where there is most interest right now, with say minimum 3 hour races, with some 6 and 12 hour races thrown in, along with Le Mans for the 24h pinnacle. These cars are spectacular to watch, the racing is good and there is strong manufacturer interest in GT3 models in fact possibly more currently than there has been in the type history?

They should bring gt3's up to gt2 standard. basically the same cars in each class anyway. The grid sizes would be great.

what ever happened to the little guys
in the 50-60 maybe 70's we had 750cc cars
and sub 1500cc and sub 2000cc and sub 3000cc classes

FIA screwed it up when ever they banned the big cars 7.0L and 5.0L class


I have no idea what makes a 911 run in GT-1-2-3-4 ect
lets go back to motor sized classes and drop the current BS

There is a summary of the current situation in today's Autosport.

- Ratel wants to have the entry list for 2012 confirmed by August, otherwise he will abandon the series.
- GT1, GTE and GT3 cars will all be allowed to compete; their performances will be equalised by the BoP [presumably there will be no classes].
- He met with several interested manufacturers in Paris last week, including McLaren and Lotus [the story immediately below is about McLaren adapting the MP4-12C to GTE specification in order to compete at Le Mans].
- The changes in the rules to allow GTE and GT3 cars will have to be approved at the FIA World Council in June for the 2012 season to be viable.

There is a summary of the current situation in today's Autosport.

- Ratel wants to have the entry list for 2012 confirmed by August, otherwise he will abandon the series.
- GT1, GTE and GT3 cars will all be allowed to compete; their performances will be equalised by the BoP [presumably there will be no classes].
- He met with several interested manufacturers in Paris last week, including McLaren and Lotus [the story immediately below is about McLaren adapting the MP4-12C to GTE specification in order to compete at Le Mans].
- The changes in the rules to allow GTE and GT3 cars will have to be approved at the FIA World Council in June for the 2012 season to be viable.

So in effect it'd just be adapt whatever cars and manufacturers are interested into a single formula? Quite interesting, but would it still be 'GT1' or just 'GT'?

Just kill it. There is no room in the racing world for an outdated series like that. Let those teams compete in a real series like the ILMC.

The cars stink, the rules stink and the president is an idiot.

I kinda like the current form GT1. Endurance racing isn't very entertaining viewing.

Though the August entry list requirement is insane. Is there a racing championship outside the main series (ie F1, MotoGP, NASCAR) that has it's entries confirmed that far in advance? Very few series will even have their 2012 schedules in August.

So in effect it'd just be adapt whatever cars and manufacturers are interested into a single formula? Quite interesting, but would it still be 'GT1' or just 'GT'?

The article refers to "the third year of the GT1 World Championship".

I kinda like the current form GT1. Endurance racing isn't very entertaining viewing.

Though the August entry list requirement is insane. Is there a racing championship outside the main series (ie F1, MotoGP, NASCAR) that has it's entries confirmed that far in advance? Very few series will even have their 2012 schedules in August.

I think the August deadline will prove to be as elastic as the "two cars per team" rule this year.

Surely it would be a bit silly having the 550's and 575's run when there outdated by two models now? For me it would better to just de-rez a 458 GTE. Unless they can make a homologated version of the 599. (I know what the 'GTO means! no need to point that out)

Its strange that there are a few cars out there that could be made to GT1 spec. The Koeningsegg CCX1 GT was GT1 wasnt it? And look at things like the Pagani Zonda R (not sure if thats the correct one, its the one thats a race car that doesn't fit to any rules) and the Honda NSX replacement. None of them are being homologated though.

They should try and get in with other series. Japan has a great GT scene.

GT is a bit of a mess anyways. Take BMW for example. Their flagship, top of the range perfomance car, the M6, competes in GT3, the lowest proper class. Their entry level performance car, the M3, races in GT2. Its plain daft. Thier are similar examples with Porsche and Dodge. Very frustrating as a long time GT/Sportscar fan.

The E92/E90 is a newer platform than the M6 though. The M6 road car is very heavy, and not the best track car. That could be the reason why the M3 gets to have more performance. Not to mention that the E92 is raced all over the world, including in ALMS.

what ever happened to the little guys
in the 50-60 maybe 70's we had 750cc cars
and sub 1500cc and sub 2000cc and sub 3000cc classes

FIA screwed it up when ever they banned the big cars 7.0L and 5.0L class


I have no idea what makes a 911 run in GT-1-2-3-4 ect
lets go back to motor sized classes and drop the current BS

+1

I kinda like the current form GT1. Endurance racing isn't very entertaining viewing.

Though the August entry list requirement is insane. Is there a racing championship outside the main series (ie F1, MotoGP, NASCAR) that has it's entries confirmed that far in advance? Very few series will even have their 2012 schedules in August.

theres normaly a decent racing in endurance racing, and more interesting things going on. but it can be hard to follow the entire race

theres normaly a decent racing in endurance racing, and more interesting things going on. but it can be hard to follow the entire race

Yeah, I'd agree with that, however, I personally think that Endurance racing is the most pure form of Motor Racing.

Anyway, getting back on subject - there are far too many classes, cars, series in GT racing. Add to the fact the biggest race for GT cars - is still Le Mans; Ratel can complain but it's a fact. I'm not sure, however good the GT1 series is, that it's worthy of FiA World Championship status. ILMC is....

Anyway, getting back on subject - there are far too many classes, cars, series in GT racing. Add to the fact the biggest race for GT cars - is still Le Mans; Ratel can complain but it's a fact. I'm not sure, however good the GT1 series is, that it's worthy of FiA World Championship status. ILMC is....

Sure, but Ratel brought GTs back to Le Mans in the early 90's... without him we might not be where we are atm.

As for summer deadline and the proposed performance balanced, shared GT1/GTE/GT3 class:

Why can`t the manufactures make their own governing body. i know the problems with that but FIA is so crap it would probably still work better.

Rules should be something along this..

Fixed air restrictor relative to the weight.
Fixed tire size or max volume total allowed relative to the weight.

the volume total is so they can go up in rear tires and go down in the front a little.f.ex.. gives the teams equal amount of rubber to play with.

max with.. or max widening if the car is far from the max with.. the modern porsches looks "stupid" with their bolt on fenders.. do it proberly.. like they did in the 70s.

+ the basics like limit on gears.. wings.. etc.

Manufacturer meddling is what ruins most of these series. If you genuinely think the FIA is bad, letting the manufacturers run it is even worse.

The FIA World Council will meet tomorrow to discuss Ratel's proposal to open up the series from next year.

If they'll indeed follow the performance balanced GT1/2/3 route, this championship is no different to Dutch Supercar Challenge.

"Bring whatever you want, we'll take care of the rest..."

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 June 2011 - 17:29.