sanitisation of F1

I've been an F1 fan for about 30 years since I went to my first GP, and whilst I still love the sport, I'm getting concerned about the direction f1 is taking.

I think Monaco brought this to a head for me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I may well be wrong - but

1) Why should all drivers now be corporate line towing automons who can't say what they feel? - I liked James Hunt and his 'Sex - the breakfast of champions' and admired Prost and Senna - their dedication to winning at all costs and the accompanying attitudes. I remember drivers walking down the pit lane to 'have it out' with someone who they felt they had done them wrong and said what they felt. Since when do we want highly driven people to come out from a bad race and spout PR driven, politically correct rubbish.

2) I want to see hard driving - Is it now only allowable to overtake in the DRS zone to the FIA prescribed only overtake on the straight or in the pits rules?

3) From my memory, If someone got inside you and managed to get their front wheel past your rear - it was your decision to yield or take the consequences. I thought Michael and Lewis demonstrated this well at the start of the race when they both left room when they realised they had been taken - are they the last of the real racers? ( I'll include Alonso as I think he is also one of the last racers in F1) Now we penalise for 'causing an avoidable accident' - surely that's health and safety gone mad - no risk taking allowed.

I feel that we have got to the point where it is no longer about racing, we have fake overtaking and we penalise real driving and reward those who talk politically correct rubbish and wait till they have a signed permit form the FIA to overtake in the required zone. Oh and 4 cylinder enviromentaly friendly engines etc. - Yawn

Rant over.

while I agree that fake racing has been the most common there has to be a line drawn in aggressiveness.

btw, did you feel the same way here?

3) From my memory, If someone got inside you and managed to get their front wheel past your rear - it was your decision to yield or take the consequences. I thought Michael and Lewis demonstrated this well at the start of the race when they both left room when they realised they had been taken - are they the last of the real racers? ( I'll include Alonso as I think he is also one of the last racers in F1) Now we penalise for 'causing an avoidable accident' - surely that's health and safety gone mad - no risk taking allowed.

IMO, to get room at the apex, you ought to have your front tyre at least half way up the other car. You're asking a lot if you are only past his rear axel IMO.

Should be no such rule on the exit of corners though with the guy on the outside always given space.

I've been an F1 fan for about 30 years since I went to my first GP, and whilst I still love the sport, I'm getting concerned about the direction f1 is taking.

I think Monaco brought this to a head for me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I may well be wrong - but

1) Why should all drivers now be corporate line towing automons who can't say what they feel? - I liked James Hunt and his 'Sex - the breakfast of champions' and admired Prost and Senna - their dedication to winning at all costs and the accompanying attitudes. I remember drivers walking down the pit lane to 'have it out' with someone who they felt they had done them wrong and said what they felt. Since when do we want highly driven people to come out from a bad race and spout PR driven, politically correct rubbish.

2) I want to see hard driving - Is it now only allowable to overtake in the DRS zone to the FIA prescribed only overtake on the straight or in the pits rules?

3) From my memory, If someone got inside you and managed to get their front wheel past your rear - it was your decision to yield or take the consequences. I thought Michael and Lewis demonstrated this well at the start of the race when they both left room when they realised they had been taken - are they the last of the real racers? ( I'll include Alonso as I think he is also one of the last racers in F1) Now we penalise for 'causing an avoidable accident' - surely that's health and safety gone mad - no risk taking allowed.

I feel that we have got to the point where it is no longer about racing, we have fake overtaking and we penalise real driving and reward those who talk politically correct rubbish and wait till they have a signed permit form the FIA to overtake in the required zone. Oh and 4 cylinder enviromentaly friendly engines etc. - Yawn

Rant over.

That was never true. If you start a move you can't finish, its your fault.

1) Why should all drivers now be corporate line towing automons who can't say what they feel? -

They may say what they say but nobody should whinge about getting some flak for saying rather silly things.

If you can't stand the heat.....

2) I want to see hard driving - Is it now only allowable to overtake in the DRS zone to the FIA prescribed only overtake on the straight or in the pits rules?

Pasing in Monaco isn't easy but we've seen some excellent passes without DRS or whatever. And we've seen an incredible amount of passes outside the DRS zone in China, Turkey and even Spain! Looks like you've missed a lot.....

Get real. We've seen more real racing this year than we have seen in years.

Edited by scheivlak, 30 May 2011 - 22:22.

while I agree that fake racing has been the most common there has to be a line drawn in aggressiveness.

btw, did you feel the same way here?

Well if I'd been Hamilton, at the end of the race I'd be straight down the pit lane to give Massa a piece of my mind....

If I was a steward I'd have said 'racing incident'.

As a fan of one or the other drivers/teams I would have supported/defended my chosen driver to my last breath!

Well if I'd been Hamilton, at the end of the race I'd be straight down the pit lane to give Massa a piece of my mind....

he didn't

If I was a steward I'd have said 'racing incident'.

they didn't

As a fan of one or the other drivers/teams I would have supported/defended my chosen driver to my last breath!

if hamilton is allowed to crowd him like that and massa gets a penalty it's only fair the same thing happens in monaco

As a fan of one or the other drivers/teams I would have supported/defended my chosen driver to my last breath!

So you're defending indefensible acts just because you like somebody?
Nice fan.

Get real. We've seen more real racing this year than we have seen in years.

driving a car 3-4 sec a lap faster because of tyres is not exactly fantastic wheel to wheel racing


F1 is more like a time trial -> just mind your own race/pit stops, it doesn't matter where you are on track, if you have enough fresh tyres it doesn't even matter a lot where you start.

people wanted more passing and the rules/tyres were designed to help that. on some tracks the balance was extreme (turkey), it was too easy to pass. on others it was a bit better.

I enjoyed monaco more than some other races this year.cars side by side on THAT track is really really something great.
even if the rules give you DRS and you have a better car/tyre package you still require some skill to not make a fool out of yourself. passing in monaco is difficult, as it should be

Woo - too many comments to answer all individually - but thanks for joining in as I think it's something that needs to be discussed - and yes I did deliberately pitch my post to get a response!

Yes Lewis should take responsibility for what he said - it was ill judged and silly - but so is insisting that drivers be forced to be interviewed as they come of the track. I've said worse in the heat of the moment and it should be laughed at rather than form headlines and talk about 'bringing the sport into disrepute'.

'Get real we've seen more real racing than we have seen for years' - true, we've had some great racing - just don't keep penalising people for doing it if there is the slightest damage to one or the other car.

'That was never true. If you start a move you can't finish, its your fault' OK- quite possibly true, but some of the best moves over the past 30 years have been opportunistic and involved a bit of risk.

They've made it clear that they're not going to tolerate overly aggressive defending (blocking and swerving) and now they're drawing a line in the sand with attacking as well. The bottom line is that passing is very possible at every track except one now thanks to the the Pirellis and DRS, so taking such a stand is very reasonable and good for the sport.

So you're defending indefensible acts just because you like somebody?
Nice fan.

No - I'm saying that is what fans do and I'm fine with that. Fans are allowed to be outrageous - you can't control them, they have the right to be fanboys. Personally if my favourites screw up I am disappointed in them and shut up.

'That was never true. If you start a move you can't finish, its your fault' OK- quite possibly true, but some of the best moves over the past 30 years have been opportunistic and involved a bit of risk.

that is exactly what you point out: RISK...if it pays off, it's great, if not you crash and get a penalty

They've made it clear that they're not going to tolerate overly aggressive defending (blocking and swerving) and now they're drawing a line in the sand with attacking as well. The bottom line is that passing is very possible at every track except one now thanks to the the Pirellis and DRS, so taking such a stand is very reasonable and good for the sport.

That is exactly what I have problem with. They are legislating to what you can and can't do till it becomes boring. I'm not suggesting that it's a free for all stock car racing, but not that we legislate exactly what is and isn't allowed.

I'll be back in the morning, wife won't let me to troll any more tonight!

I think we've seen so little in the way of racing the last decade that a lot of people have become accustomed to the situation where you run a fast in lap and out lap after a pit stop to pass. That is part of the game but it isn't really good racing from a fan's perspective.

Calling DRS and KERS 'fake' racing is silly.

I do agree it would be nice if there were a bit less of the driver as spokesperson for the sponsor stuff.

That was never true. If you start a move you can't finish, its your fault.

It IS true, why else do you think when a car is about to be overtaken, they move to the inside of the corner? Guy on the inside has the advantage.


I agree with TC, here are also some other things that have really made the sport worse:
Aspalt runoffs
Homologated rev-limited engines
Very tight parameters for car development.

Divebombing down the inside and telling the defending driver to "yield or crash" isn't 'real racing' any more than a more passive approach is.

Senna had a reputation for it and because of it most drivers did yield to him but that doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they didn't. The regulator has to draw a line somewhere as to what constitutes a racing incident and what is overly aggressive attacking/defending - you can't just let everything fly. It is not an easy line to draw though and penalties are being handed out much more liberally this year than they were in 2010.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

Divebombing down the inside and telling the defending driver to "yield or crash" isn't 'real racing' any more than a more passive approach is.

Senna had a reputation for it and because of it most drivers did yield to him but that doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they didn't. The regulator has to draw a line somewhere as to what constitutes a racing incident and what is overly aggressive attacking/defending - you can't just let everything fly. It is not an easy line to draw though and penalties are being handed out much more liberally this year than they were in 2010.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

+1

Is this one of those "Everything that people rally against certain other drivers for doing should now be magically OK because Lewis did it" threads?

Divebombing down the inside and telling the defending driver to "yield or crash" isn't 'real racing' any more than a more passive approach is.

Senna had a reputation for it and because of it most drivers did yield to him but that doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they didn't. The regulator has to draw a line somewhere as to what constitutes a racing incident and what is overly aggressive attacking/defending - you can't just let everything fly. It is not an easy line to draw though and penalties are being handed out much more liberally this year than they were in 2010.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

Divebombing wasn't the worst that Senna did. Cutting off drivers on the outside on the exit of a corner when they were practically side by side I found much worse.

Divebombing wasn't the worst that Senna did. Cutting off drivers on the outside on the exit of a corner when they were practically side by side I found much worse.

I don't find the "hanging out to dry" technique especially edifying either but for whatever reason it is generally accepted as legitimate in most classes of racing. The is no real definition of what constitutes "crowding" just as there isn't one that decides whether a collision is "avoidable"

As a McLaren fan, I loved watching Senna drive but I was the same with Prost and with Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Alonso (for half the season anyway) and now with Hamilton. They all had very different approaches to the way they went racing to how they managed a race. I would hate the idea the the aggressive style would be regulated out but I don't think there is any real risk of that, we have seen Hamilton drive very aggressively and successfully several times this season already.

What happened on Sunday was a product of the venue more than anything else.

Edited by Dunder, 31 May 2011 - 00:22.

I've been an F1 fan for about 30 years since I went to my first GP, and whilst I still love the sport, I'm getting concerned about the direction f1 is taking.

I think Monaco brought this to a head for me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I may well be wrong - but

1) Why should all drivers now be corporate line towing automons who can't say what they feel? - I liked James Hunt and his 'Sex - the breakfast of champions' and admired Prost and Senna - their dedication to winning at all costs and the accompanying attitudes. I remember drivers walking down the pit lane to 'have it out' with someone who they felt they had done them wrong and said what they felt. Since when do we want highly driven people to come out from a bad race and spout PR driven, politically correct rubbish.

2) I want to see hard driving - Is it now only allowable to overtake in the DRS zone to the FIA prescribed only overtake on the straight or in the pits rules?

3) From my memory, If someone got inside you and managed to get their front wheel past your rear - it was your decision to yield or take the consequences. I thought Michael and Lewis demonstrated this well at the start of the race when they both left room when they realised they had been taken - are they the last of the real racers? ( I'll include Alonso as I think he is also one of the last racers in F1) Now we penalise for 'causing an avoidable accident' - surely that's health and safety gone mad - no risk taking allowed.

I feel that we have got to the point where it is no longer about racing, we have fake overtaking and we penalise real driving and reward those who talk politically correct rubbish and wait till they have a signed permit form the FIA to overtake in the required zone. Oh and 4 cylinder enviromentaly friendly engines etc. - Yawn

Rant over.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that if you show them a wheel, it's your decision to yeild.

Sure you might have an accident, so yeilding could be better, but it doesn't mean that the person who jumps on the inside shouldn't receive a penalty for 'causing an incident'.

Having said that, I agree, with everything. Speaking your mind, the lot of it, your either a purist or a pussy to be frank.

as for the underlined part, since when has motor racing been trying to appeal to green peace hippies. seriously.

It IS true, why else do you think when a car is about to be overtaken, they move to the inside of the corner? Guy on the inside has the advantage.

Really no idea what thats got to do with anything, sorry.

They've made it clear that they're not going to tolerate overly aggressive defending (blocking and swerving) and now they're drawing a line in the sand with attacking as well. The bottom line is that passing is very possible at every track except one now thanks to the the Pirellis and DRS, so taking such a stand is very reasonable and good for the sport.

Actually, I am starting to think they (the teams) just want passing in the DRS zones. A push on the button and a safe pass. No repairs. I doubt it is what the drivers want, but for the rest of the team, wheel to wheel racing is is nerve wrecking in a different way than for the sofa racer. So yes, I do think F1 is getting too sanitized.

I have been hard on Lewis in some discussions here the last few days, but at the same time I think he is right - he tried to race and for that he got penalties. Monaco it is almost impossible to overtake in Monaco, but only almost. We have seen overtaking maneuvers there and we saw quite a few last sunday. But it is only possible if the driver being overtaken accepts defeat. We do not see many drivers do that anymore and "smart" drivers like Jenson did not even bother to try when he came up on Alonso and Vettel.

I did not like that. Sure, it could have ended in tears had he tried something and Alonso had defended like Massa does (he is defending ridiculously hard, not only in Monaco, I complained about him also after Asutralia and some other races, he simply drives as if there is no one else there), but if he wanted to win he needed to pass Alonso before Alonso passed Vettel. He just sat there.

Maldonado could have avoided the accident but he did not have to and he did not want to. I cried for penalty against Hamilton then, but after looking at the replays I say it was a racing incident and I also say that I think Maldonado should have left room. It is sometimes the smart thing to do.

I think FiA should clarify their stance on this and also explain how come almost every overtaking attempt nowadays result in a penalty. Soon they might as well get rid of the race stewards and use ordinary traffic police. "PULL OVER AND KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE WE CAN SEE THEM"

Edited by Hairpin, 31 May 2011 - 01:06.

Is this one of those "Everything that people rally against certain other drivers for doing should now be magically OK because Lewis did it" threads?

I believe that was the inspiration.

But for Lewis fans out there...
Do you think Lewis would have yielded to either of the passes that he was penalized for in Monaco if he had been on the receiving end?

I believe that was the inspiration.

But for Lewis fans out there...
Do you think Lewis would have yielded to either of the passes that he was penalized for in Monaco if he had been on the receiving end?

To be fair, I can't recall him having turned in on someone who was alongside with the possible exception of Webber in Singapore last year.
He gave Schumacher plenty of room on lap 1 yesterday albeit Schumacher was further alongside than Lewis was with Massa.

Edited by Dunder, 31 May 2011 - 01:14.

To be fair, I can't recall him having turned in on someone who was alongside with the possible exception of Webber in Singapore last year.
He gave Schumacher plenty of room on lap 1 yesterday albeit Schumacher was further alongside than Lewis was with Massa.

It doesn't happen often since he's a very fast driver in a very fast car. He has been fair with Jenson in their duels on track, but with a teammate there's a lot more pressure to do so. Plus Jenson is very measured in his passing - he doesn't stick his nose in often (note: that this is not a criticism - Button is an excellent overtaker).

Btw, is anyone compiling overtaking stats this year for the drivers?

while I agree that fake racing has been the most common there has to be a line drawn in aggressiveness.

Yes, there does but currently that line is drawn in the wrong place. Penalties are haphazardly handed out now for this "causing an avoidable collision" **** much more often than not when once it would have been classified as a racing incident. Drivers should be encouraged to race, and with racing, collisions sometimes inevitably occur.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 31 May 2011 - 03:16.

while I agree that fake racing has been the most common there has to be a line drawn in aggressiveness.

btw, did you feel the same way here?

LOL Nice reply with the vid and all!!

I can't believe some people are actually complaining about the OTHER guys! No, if you put your front wheel only in front of the other guy's rear, you're playing with fire trying to stick your nose in there, nobody yields at that. With Schumacher, Lewis had almost his entire car alongside Schumi, Schumi doesn't yield unless the only other alternative is crashing out, and even then he many times takes a stab at it. The only reason why Lewis was able to keep going and Maldonado out was because Maldonado doesn't have Schumacher's expertise, had that been Schumacher the one who would have been left out of the race would have been Hamilton, not the other way around.

Divebombing down the inside and telling the defending driver to "yield or crash" isn't 'real racing' any more than a more passive approach is.

Senna had a reputation for it and because of it most drivers did yield to him but that doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they didn't. The regulator has to draw a line somewhere as to what constitutes a racing incident and what is overly aggressive attacking/defending - you can't just let everything fly. It is not an easy line to draw though and penalties are being handed out much more liberally this year than they were in 2010.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

Yeppers

Calling DRS and KERS 'fake' racing is silly.

KERS is ok, both drivers have it.

DRS is not, it's only available to the attacking guy. Is that real racing? In Turkey they were able to make a pass from waaaay behind just because the attacking car had so much more top speed.

Fantastic racing

I've been an F1 fan for about 30 years since I went to my first GP, and whilst I still love the sport, I'm getting concerned about the direction f1 is taking.

I think Monaco brought this to a head for me.

Please feel free to disagree with me, I may well be wrong - but

1) Why should all drivers now be corporate line towing automons who can't say what they feel? - I liked James Hunt and his 'Sex - the breakfast of champions' and admired Prost and Senna - their dedication to winning at all costs and the accompanying attitudes. I remember drivers walking down the pit lane to 'have it out' with someone who they felt they had done them wrong and said what they felt. Since when do we want highly driven people to come out from a bad race and spout PR driven, politically correct rubbish.

2) I want to see hard driving - Is it now only allowable to overtake in the DRS zone to the FIA prescribed only overtake on the straight or in the pits rules?

3) From my memory, If someone got inside you and managed to get their front wheel past your rear - it was your decision to yield or take the consequences. I thought Michael and Lewis demonstrated this well at the start of the race when they both left room when they realised they had been taken - are they the last of the real racers? ( I'll include Alonso as I think he is also one of the last racers in F1) Now we penalise for 'causing an avoidable accident' - surely that's health and safety gone mad - no risk taking allowed.

I feel that we have got to the point where it is no longer about racing, we have fake overtaking and we penalise real driving and reward those who talk politically correct rubbish and wait till they have a signed permit form the FIA to overtake in the required zone. Oh and 4 cylinder enviromentaly friendly engines etc. - Yawn

Rant over.

I agree with all of that.

Divebombing down the inside and telling the defending driver to "yield or crash" isn't 'real racing' any more than a more passive approach is.

Senna had a reputation for it and because of it most drivers did yield to him but that doesn't mean it would have been their fault if they didn't. The regulator has to draw a line somewhere as to what constitutes a racing incident and what is overly aggressive attacking/defending - you can't just let everything fly. It is not an easy line to draw though and penalties are being handed out much more liberally this year than they were in 2010.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

This +1

while I agree that fake racing has been the most common there has to be a line drawn in aggressiveness.

btw, did you feel the same way here?

Can you really not differentiate between the two incidents - one, where a driver goes deep into a corner, clumps over the kerb coming back on to the track and tags the back of a driver who's already on his way through, and one, where a driver goes up the inside of another within the track boundaries and the defending driver turns in early to block the pass?

Whether or not I would have issued Massa with a penalty, personally I don't know, but he certainly earnt it more than Hamilton did.

Getting your front wheels overlapped with the rear wheels of the driver in front should not constitute 'right of way' to the inside kerb because it will only encourage ever more audacious divebombs.

I disagree, Barrichello on Rosberg in Melbourne was a 'divebomb', but when you're overlapped with a car already you can't call that a divebomb.

I think as a driver you do not deserve to have your race ruined, and perhaps your first chance of taking WDC points, by somebody launching a selfish, over-optimistic move down the inside that was never going to work, and for the perpatrator to go entirely unpunished.

Sure, lets see racing and overtaking, but that should never mean allowing absolutely *any* cack-handed attempt to be passed off as just a "racing incident".

Rules are there to ensure fair, equitable racing. Enforcing them is a sign they have been infringed...and not down to ethnicity.

Edited by GreyArrow, 31 May 2011 - 08:31.

As a fan of one or the other drivers/teams I would have supported/defended my chosen driver to my last breath!

I never understand this sort of fan. What if "your" driver does something that goes completely against what you believe in?

OK, there's nothing wrong with having a soft spot for certain drivers, but don't blindly worship them. No one is infallible.

Can you really not differentiate between the two incidents - one, where a driver goes deep into a corner, clumps over the kerb coming back on to the track and tags the back of a driver who's already on his way through, and one, where a driver goes up the inside of another within the track boundaries and the defending driver turns in early to block the pass?

Whether or not I would have issued Massa with a penalty, personally I don't know, but he certainly earnt it more than Hamilton did.

it's very similar to hamilton's hit on massa in monaco.

The car on the outside squeezed the car on the inside over the kerb.


this discussion is about giving space. is the car on the outside expected to give room to the car on the inside if one wheel is there?

So you're defending indefensible acts just because you like somebody?
Nice fan.

Is there anybody on here that doesn't do that?????
There is so much hypocrisy with things like this because your average F1 fan will always see an incident very differently if they like/dislike a driver. Perspectives are always different if favourism is in the mix or vice versa. Anyone who doesn't understand that is either lost here or very frustrated alot of the time.

Is there anybody on here that doesn't do that?????
There is so much hypocrisy with things like this because your average F1 fan will always see an incident very differently if they like/dislike a driver. Perspectives are always different if favourism is in the mix or vice versa. Anyone who doesn't understand that is either lost here or very frustrated alot of the time.

I understand that perfectly. So I'm not lost and even less frustrated

Still I find it a bit strange if people try to uphold arguments and opinions that they themselves know aren't valid.

This is the kind of racing we should have in F1 now



Hard, fast, and no quarter given!

I understand that perfectly. So I'm not lost and even less frustrated

Still I find it a bit strange if people try to uphold arguments and opinions that they themselves know aren't valid.

Well I write things I don't necessarily believe in - when I started the thread I knew that I only half believed some of the points!

back to your point - 10% of the forum seem to think Lewis should be banned from F1 for what he said , 10% think he should be praised for being so open. I disagree with both viewpoints and I can't really think either side can possibly 100% believe what they are saying -but when 'haters' are screaming one silly viewpoint, it tends to make 'fanboys' retaliate with equally stupid over the top replies. Ok the above isn't necessarily a good example as its not all that extreme, but what I'm trying to say is that I think it is fine if fanboys/haters have these knowingly ridiculous opinions, I think they have the right to talk indefensible rubbish just as I have the right to use the ignore button when they express them.

Is this one of those "Everything that people rally against certain other drivers for doing should now be magically OK because Lewis did it" threads?

It wasn't meant to be - hence my name is RichardF1fan rather than a particular driver. I do understand how you could think that though as this is going to be about Lewis as he was the one that caused the fuss this weekend. If it had been Alonso having done exactly the same I would have had the same concerns and the thread would be there just the same.

Although 'maybe it's cos I is Spanish' doesn't really have the same effect.

Still I find it a bit strange if people try to uphold arguments and opinions that they themselves know aren't valid.

I suggest you don't join a debating society then!

Arguing a case you don't believe in is perfectly valid. It often helps us explore all facets of an argument if one is to adopt a non-native viewpoint.

In my teenage and young adult years I would argue tooth and nail with my father about politics, both of us adoping a view contrary to the other, and could frequently argue for a point one day that the previous day we argued against. We knew it was just debating, but it drove my poor mother to distraction!

Edited by GreyArrow, 31 May 2011 - 10:46.

I suggest you don't join a debating society then!

Arguing a case you don't believe in is perfectly valid.

It is in a debating society!

In an internet forum it is something very close to trolling.