Let's cut to the chase; should we have DRS next year or not? You choose.
DRS - Keep it or bin it? You choose
Started by
Owen
, Jun 15 2011 11:24
73 replies to this topic
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#2
Group B
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:25
It's the better of two evils, but HAS to be calibrated right for each track; Canada was an absolute farce.
#3
Don_Humpador
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:28
I would bin it for the next 6 races and see how things turn out. That would give opportunities to show how much of an impact the tyres have had, at a traditionally dull track like Valencia, a fast circuit at Silverstone, Nurburgring, then a slow circuit like Hungary, but then traditionally exciting Spa and Monza.
If we don't get good races in at least 4 of those races, then maybe, yes, DRS has a good effect ; however, I would still believe it is currently slightly overpowered/overused, and I certainly wouldn't go back to the double usage like in Canada.
If we don't get good races in at least 4 of those races, then maybe, yes, DRS has a good effect ; however, I would still believe it is currently slightly overpowered/overused, and I certainly wouldn't go back to the double usage like in Canada.
#4
Andy865
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:35
Huzzah a DRS thread. We need one of these. Keep it, But get it right for gods sake.
#5
Owen
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:40
Yes, I do actually share your lack of enthusiasm about DRS threads. Hence the need to get a quick snapshot poll of how fans are feeling about it (rather than endless analysis and bickering!). But I do realise we'll get endless analysis and bickering anyway.Huzzah a DRS thread. We need one of these. Keep it, But get it right for gods sake.
#6
beute
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:56
they should make sure that the DRS effect is more lik in australia/monaco etc
Straight line overtaking moves are just as boring as no overtaking...
The DRS should only help getting closer, I think it's already too much if they manage to get alongside each other, it's just too big of an unfair advantage...
There was a reason WHY button ended up behind webber and schumacher, he had a bad race, made 3 mistakes and 6 pitstops.
he deserved to end up behind those 2 slower cars with such a performence, and the only way he could've redeemed himself was by making some awesome overtaking moves.
wich we didnt see as all he had to do was push a button.
he got a Race victory gifted, he didnt earn it.
Im not saying that he could not have done it anyway, maybe he could, maybe not, we will never know... the DRS robbed us.
the safety car and the DRS are tools that essentially erase mistakes.
and that's why I think they should either remove it or make 100% sure that it works more like in australia/monaco, where it didnt necessarily produced more overtaking, but using it was surely not a disadvantage either...
Straight line overtaking moves are just as boring as no overtaking...
The DRS should only help getting closer, I think it's already too much if they manage to get alongside each other, it's just too big of an unfair advantage...
There was a reason WHY button ended up behind webber and schumacher, he had a bad race, made 3 mistakes and 6 pitstops.
he deserved to end up behind those 2 slower cars with such a performence, and the only way he could've redeemed himself was by making some awesome overtaking moves.
wich we didnt see as all he had to do was push a button.
he got a Race victory gifted, he didnt earn it.
Im not saying that he could not have done it anyway, maybe he could, maybe not, we will never know... the DRS robbed us.
the safety car and the DRS are tools that essentially erase mistakes.
and that's why I think they should either remove it or make 100% sure that it works more like in australia/monaco, where it didnt necessarily produced more overtaking, but using it was surely not a disadvantage either...
Edited by beute, 15 June 2011 - 11:59.
#7
dutchie
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:56
Bin it. We don't need it, it has perhaps helped a few races but it has been a farce otherwise. I'd rather gamble on the new tyres being the reason for the on-track action we've seen so far. Also, maybe I sound like a miserable old sod but I'm not a fan of gimmicky technology and much prefer pure racing even if it's less spectacular.
#8
Henrytheeigth
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:02
Bin it and the ones who thought of it lol
#9
Tsarwash
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:14
Howe about starting an, 'Endless analysis and bickering: Keep it or bin it?' thread and poll ? Oh hang on. 
.I cannot vote because drs is not just a simple thing. It is currently a necessary evil for some circuits. places that overtaking is actually impossible such as Valencia or Hungary we need to do something. But on circuits where overtaking is possible and likely, it actually removes from the skill and spectacle.
AND the rules need tweaking still, of course. If you have two drs zones, and the driver gets past on the first one, then it is a farce that the same driver can use drs to pull away. what should if anything, happen is that if you have two drs zones the driver behind gets two chances to get ahead, but if he does get ahead in the first zone then the chance then passes to the driver he has just passed.
Maybe change the drs so that if can only be employed if one car has been stuck behind another car for more than three laps say. Because this is exactly the reasoning for implementing it in the first place. So the banzai drivers can go for it anywhere on the track to quickly get past slower cars without drs, or the sluggers such as Button can chose to wait for three laps before sailing past, losing all that tiem in the meantime.
.I cannot vote because drs is not just a simple thing. It is currently a necessary evil for some circuits. places that overtaking is actually impossible such as Valencia or Hungary we need to do something. But on circuits where overtaking is possible and likely, it actually removes from the skill and spectacle. AND the rules need tweaking still, of course. If you have two drs zones, and the driver gets past on the first one, then it is a farce that the same driver can use drs to pull away. what should if anything, happen is that if you have two drs zones the driver behind gets two chances to get ahead, but if he does get ahead in the first zone then the chance then passes to the driver he has just passed.
Maybe change the drs so that if can only be employed if one car has been stuck behind another car for more than three laps say. Because this is exactly the reasoning for implementing it in the first place. So the banzai drivers can go for it anywhere on the track to quickly get past slower cars without drs, or the sluggers such as Button can chose to wait for three laps before sailing past, losing all that tiem in the meantime.
#11
Francesc
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:25
Bin it. What's exciting about overtaking in a straight line?
#12
ViMaMo
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:38
Bin it. What's exciting about overtaking in a straight line?
Oval racing then?
-------------------
Artificial overtaking.
Edited by ViMaMo, 15 June 2011 - 12:39.
#13
Henrytheeigth
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:42
Oval racing then?
-------------------
Artificial overtaking.
Been dying to use it
#14
jk
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:02
Keep it, but use it sensibly. Have a couple or cars out there testing different deployment lines. Calibrate the line so the car using DRS will be equal with the car ahead under braking, but not be three car lenghts ahead. If you just test the speed along the straigh with different deployment lines, it is really not difficult to figure out.
Oh and scrap double DRS zones.
Oh and scrap double DRS zones.
#15
Kucki
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:16
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#16
Owen
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:18
I think the sarcasm-meter just blew up.Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#17
Group B
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:26
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
That's very funny, but you seem to have already forgotten the enormous amount of whining from fans when overtaking was nigh on impossible. DRS, if calibrated wrongly as in Canada, is a thoroughly bad idea, but when used properly - just enough to help a faster car get level - then I consider it less irksome than watching 24 cars go around a track for 70 laps knowing full well there's not a cat's chance in hell of overtaking. The real solution is, of course, to deeply address current cars aero designs, but until that happens I'd rather have a button than a procession.
#18
Fastcake
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:30
Keep it, as long as it can be configured correctly. Events like Turkey were far to extreme, while China worked perfectly, because cars were only just beside - there was still a fight to be had at the hairpin.
#19
noikeee
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:30
Keep it, definitely. We've been having the greatest races I've ever seen, and while DRS may not have been the biggest factor in achieving it, it has been a factor.
I'd just personally try to make the zones a little less effective than Turkey/Canada. 2 large zones, in tracks where overtaking isn't as difficult to begin with, is a little too much for my taste. But I'd rather have that than no DRS at all.
I'd just personally try to make the zones a little less effective than Turkey/Canada. 2 large zones, in tracks where overtaking isn't as difficult to begin with, is a little too much for my taste. But I'd rather have that than no DRS at all.
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#20
MikeTekRacing
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:32
I don't know what your idea about a cat's chance in hell is...but we had overtaking before DRS.then I consider it less irksome than watching 24 cars go around a track for 70 laps knowing full well there's not a cat's chance in hell of overtaking.
THis year also most overtaking was done due to huge difference in tyres.
#21
Group B
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:06
That's the irony though, we've suddenly got two overtaking aids at once, after years where several tracks made it extremely difficult, even if the car behind was a second or more faster. Of course 'we had' overtaking, but I'm sure the vast majority of people will say that the combination of car design and certain tracks made it too rare and difficult in recent years.I don't know what your idea about a cat's chance in hell is...but we had overtaking before DRS.
THis year also most overtaking was done due to huge difference in tyres.
#22
GhostR
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:11
I voted keep it ... but they need to get on top of making sure the DRS zoning doesn't make the passes *too* easy.
#23
Henrytheeigth
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:13
I bet without drs I could pass another car. All this dirty air bs is a laugh, or there'd never be any overtaking ever if that were the case, and even in 2008 when the cars were at their most aerodynamically design, we saw overtakes. It's all just bs nowadays, the racers don't seem to be there for passion anymore, well Lewis seems to be the only one, the rest only for the money and the glitter etc., my most humble Royal opinion of course.
#24
Hairpin
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:15
It is a hack workaround for a more serious problem. If it is kept they will never bother to do a proper fix.It's the better of two evils, but HAS to be calibrated right for each track; Canada was an absolute farce.
#25
Atreiu
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:16
It's a quick fix, so I'd like it to be dropped for 2013 onwards. But I have a feeling it'll stay.
#26
Ali_G
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:25
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
Arnoux - Villeneuve would have been incredible.
I also get a great buzz when I see the rear flap opening and closing. Incredible.
#27
Ali_G
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:26
Again I'll say it.
DRS is an abomination. It was originally a quick fix until 2013 but now looks like a permanent fixture.
DRS is an abomination. It was originally a quick fix until 2013 but now looks like a permanent fixture.
#28
differential
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:28
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#29
Crusoe
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:32
Keep it, BUT on some tracks only. For instance - Hungaroring, Valencia, Barcelona, Monaco etc. anywhere where it will actually help drivers get in better position to overtake but not make that pass easy. On some tracks it's needless like for instance Canada, Turkey, Spa etc. If it must be used on those tracks, then it should be put on a place where it's not the most obvious place for overtaking, sort of like it was done in Melbourne. And none of this Double DRS zone poppycock, at least until you have 2 detection zones.
#30
Henrytheeigth
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:36
Again I'll say it.
DRS is an abomination. It was originally a quick fix until 2013 but now looks like a permanent fixture.
I think you have found your sig mate!
#31
rdebourbon
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:38
I would counter that by saying we should scrap the races with tracks that consistently produce boring races.. It seems that each year there are more candidates for running a GP.. Perhaps we should start going to different venues instead of perpetually visiting what we already know are boring tracks...Keep it, BUT on some tracks only. For instance - Hungaroring, Valencia, Barcelona, Monaco etc. anywhere where it will actually help drivers get in better position to overtake but not make that pass easy. On some tracks it's needless like for instance Canada, Turkey, Spa etc. If it must be used on those tracks, then it should be put on a place where it's not the most obvious place for overtaking, sort of like it was done in Melbourne. And none of this Double DRS zone poppycock, at least until you have 2 detection zones.
Once again I keep coming back to: Why introduce a gimmick that only serves to mask the real issue?!
#32
Dunder
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:41
Bin it.
I stated my objections to the principle before it was introduced and nothing I have seen has changed my mind.
I stated my objections to the principle before it was introduced and nothing I have seen has changed my mind.
#33
Henrytheeigth
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:52
So how many of you are going to the British GP this year? Will it be a full house again? Won't you cringe when you see an easy pass made and that shitty little gap open up in the rear wing? I would. Ah! Unless a driver I like makes the pass haha. That's another thing, Jens used drs won Canada, but that was a great thing coz it meant that Vettel didn't so *shrugs shoulders* fake wins that are with drivers you like are better than wins with drivers you don't like.
Well sadly what can we do, many say bin it, but we are just a forum not an FIA contingent lol
Well sadly what can we do, many say bin it, but we are just a forum not an FIA contingent lol
#34
bourbon
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:55
If I had to choose right now, I'd say bin it. But I am actually in a holding pattern, waiting to see how it evolves over time. In moments it is good, in others it is terrible. But we are not even half way through yet, so...
#35
Hippo
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:13
No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.The DRS should only help getting closer
Given this purpose it's simply stupid to allow its usage in qualifying. If they had to qualify without DRS they'd have to go for a different setup with less downforce. On a track like Montreal that would have resulted in a less effective DRS system, because the car infront would have had higher top speed and the bonus of the DRS would have been smaller. And that in turn would have reduced the ridiculous speed advantage when applying DRS.
The DRS system is good and has to stay. But they need to change the way it can be used to decrease lap times especially in qualifying.
#36
Andrew Hope
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:13
Where's the thread to keep or bin all the F1 fans that are judging after seven races something that takes more than seven races to fine-tune and get right?
#37
Ali_G
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:15
No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.
Given this purpose it's simply stupid to allow its usage in qualifying. If they had to qualify without DRS they'd have to go for a different setup with less downforce. On a track like Montreal that would have resulted in a less effective DRS system, because the car infront would have had higher top speed and the bonus of the DRS would have been smaller. And that in turn would have reduced the ridiculous speed advantage when applying DRS.
The DRS system is good and has to stay. But they need to change the way it can be used to decrease lap times especially in qualifying.
If it isn't allowed in qual, then the rev limit, allied with gearing would mean it would be next to useless in the race.
#38
smitten
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:17
Where's the thread to keep or bin all the F1 fans that are judging after seven races something that takes more than seven races to fine-tune and get right?
It's probably in the same place as the one for F1 fans who are missing the point. To me it's not about fine-tuning DRS, it is that it is inherently unfair. No amount of tuning the system will make it fair. Unless all drivers can use it when they wish, which defeats the purpose, the system will remain unfair.
#39
Group B
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:28
That's nice in principle, but 20, 30, 40, 50 ... years ago the only thing stopping a faster car/driver ovetaking a slower one was driver talent; the way aero has evolved, however, has profoundly changed that fundamental aspect of the sport. Something was/is needed to redress the problem, and DRS is not the worst solution imaginable IF it is applied properly; what we saw in Canada was an aboration that I (as an MS fan) hated as much as you, Ali or Dunder.It's probably in the same place as the one for F1 fans who are missing the point. To me it's not about fine-tuning DRS, it is that it is inherently unfair. No amount of tuning the system will make it fair. Unless all drivers can use it when they wish, which defeats the purpose, the system will remain unfair.
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#40
smitten
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:40
That's nice in principle, but 20, 30, 40, 50 ... years ago the only thing stopping a faster car/driver ovetaking a slower one was driver talent; the way aero has evolved, however, has profoundly changed that fundamental aspect of the sport.
Aero is not the only thing that has changed but is the bandwagon that is being jumped upon to the exclusion of everything else. There are other things that could be looked at, but won't be because it isn't considered politically expedient. Semi-automatic double-clutch seamless shift gearboxes make it impossible to miss a gear, large carbon brakes combined with aero make for very short, but consistent, braking distances, pit radio where drivers can be called in almost at the last corner if a team of specialists armed with supercomputers deem it optimal etc.
Aero may cause some, or even the majority, of the current perceived problems, but it is not solely responsible for the type of racing we have had for the last 10 or so years.
#41
Hippo
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:48
Yeah well, no. There is no reason not to consider this when setting up the car. On some tracks like Barcelona people have to consider this too because of changing wind directions. That's not a DRS issue but a set up issue. Besides, it would still reduce drag and thus allow you to hit the rev limiter earlier even if you ignore this when setting up the car. So you would still be reaching top speed earlier and thus get at least a slightly better chance at overtaking.If it isn't allowed in qual, then the rev limit, allied with gearing would mean it would be next to useless in the race.
Edited by Hippo, 15 June 2011 - 15:49.
#42
Ali_G
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:49
large carbon brakes combined with aero make for very short,
It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Zanardi ran with steel disks at Spa 99 and ran similar lap times to Ralf Schumacher who was using carbon disks.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
#43
Hairpin
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:57
Well, partly true, but with todays downforce I doubt you can lock the wheels even with carbon disk when you brake at 300 kmh. So the disks do indeed shorter the distance. All in all they shorten the average distance since steel brakes will show bigger variations over the race.It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Zanardi ran with steel disks at Spa 99 and ran similar lap times to Ralf Schumacher who was using carbon disks.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
#44
smitten
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:02
It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
Granted, but the lower unsprung weight, wear rate, and resistance to fade are of importance over a race distance.
I'm not really suggesting a return to steel brakes, but pointing out that modern F1 cars are reliable, consistent, and operate to increasingly fine margins which are designed to make it easier for drivers to avoid mistakes which makes it, in turn, harder for other drivers to benefit from a mistake.
#45
Rob
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:19
Bin it, with the caveat that the underfloor aero regs are reinstated.
#46
corf
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:24
Bin it, with the caveat that the underfloor aero regs are reinstated.
pretty much this
i voted keep it, but only while they do nothing to increase braking distances and reduce aero impact on the following car.
Edited by corf, 15 June 2011 - 16:24.
#47
Touti
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:32
Keep it until you make cars that can pass without it.
#48
rdebourbon
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:39
Since when is it a god given right for a faster car to overtake a slower one? If we are only interested in outright speed, then rather than a race we should have extended qualifying with only one car on track at a time..No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.
#49
Group B
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:44
It shouldn't be a 'god given right', but it should be reasonably possible.Since when is it a god given right for a faster car to overtake a slower one? If we are only interested in outright speed, then rather than a race we should have extended qualifying with only one car on track at a time..
#50
MikeTekRacing
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Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:45
at the same time it should be reasonably possible to defend your position...which isn't at the momentIt shouldn't be a 'god given right', but it should be reasonably possible.
