Whatever happened to Formula Three?

Very few have sponsors. Most of the backing comes from Daddy. Who is in most cases the CEO or high up in the organisation on the side of the car. Eg. Grahame Chilton who has bankrolled son Tom in touring cars and other son Max into F1 this year, with AON sponsorship on their cars as their father is vice chairman.

What never ceases to amaze me is how many young drivers there are who aspire to be a professional ...

'Twas ever thus. Formula Three has always had a large number of wannabes some with but in most case without the prerequisite talent. I know of a couple of talented drivers whose funding ran out and whose fathers nearly bankrupted their businesses in an effort to keep their son's career on track.

I suspect the best way for talent to rise to the top is to make the cars cheap and basic but that wouldn't fit in with the current need for technology - shame as it gave us some of the best years of F3 plus some of the greatest drivers to emerge from the Formula.

My memory is not as good as it was but was it in 1 litre F3 that Brabham fielded a car with a roller bearing crank Honda motor that left the rest for dead?

No, that was in F2, not F3, in 1966. Jack Brabham won ten races. Both formulae had the same 1000cc capacity limit at the time.

It is a disgrace that it has come to this; first Mr Ratel decided that the British F3 championship would no longer run at British circuits , then BCE and his chums re invented F2 and F4 to leach away some more cash and now- well we have no single seater racing worth beans left. Oh , apart from Ecoboost Formula Ford - yup , me neither...I will just spend my season enjoying historic single seaters and getting misty eyed at having seen Nilsson and Sullivan at Cadwell, Hunt at Rufforth, Lauda and Pace at Croft , Piquet at Brands and Senna at Silverstone-etc all in F3.My traditional season opener has been F3 round at Oulton Park- guess I will watch the GT round now instead.

In the 60s there was F1,2,3
Logical and very international.

F2 series ran in Europe, England and France with stand-alone races across Europe and South America
F3 series ran right across europe and if you wanted to spend all season towing your F3 car round and collecting start money you could race in a different country every week. F3 was, in effect, the first rung on the dingle seater ladder after you started out with a sports car of some kind.
A healthy situation.
It really should have been pegged right there (with room to alter the technical regs as time progressed)

The 'rot' started, and this is going to be a controversial view, with Formula Ford and Formula Vee , as they added extra rungs to the ladder and stole support from existing F3 entries (for good reasons at the time but...)

In the 70s these two subdivided into Super Vee and FF2000, and Atlantic was added further diluting the pool. Now there were 5 rungs below F3 (these three all subsequently died out in Britain during the 80s I think).

Somewhere along the way Formula Renault was added in and subsequently that subdivided again and again, spread to Britain.

In the 80s John Webb started adding other spec-series in Britain (F Talbot, F First, F Forward, even the still-borne F Turbo Ford) Then we had 'Class B' In F3 as well.
FF1600 divided with the arrival, of Zetec engines and has never recovered it's 70s/80s stature. Then came more spec-series for Palmer Audi (also subdivided) F2, GP3, F4...

And all of them have been sharing the single 'rung' on which F3 perched alone in the mid 60s. Logic says it's hardly surprising if grids do not flourish.

That's before you even get to all the various larger engined series that have appeared in the last decade or so Renault, Nissan, Superleague etc etc...

I think that's pretty well put Simon

This event reflects a fundamental question: Who is motor racing for?
Is it:
(1) For the competitors' enjoyment?
(2) For the organisers and promoters to make a [business] profit?
(3) For the enthusiasts spectating at the track?
(4) For the fans watching on TV?
(5) For manufacturers to promote the cars they make?
(6) As a medium for sponsors to promote their product or business?
(7) For the benefit of makers of racing cars and equipment?

In truth, it is probably a mix of all of these and more. As Simon said so clearly above, the balance between these requirements is constantly changing. Inevitably, depending on your viewpoint, some changes will be for the better and some for the worse. We all know the problem[s] with the present situation - but can we suggest possible solutions?

I've been skimming through this thread working out my resonse, don't need to now Simon has completely encapsulated it... how did things ever get into such a mess?

And another thing; whenever I see GP2 heading an article in Muttering News or somewhere my immediate reaction is, oh, good something about real saloon car racing...

Has someone details about the budgets of the F3 teams over the years?

I have borrowed this from my good friend Neil Cunningham. Himself a good racer in FF & F3 and recently in historics until his illness has prevented more racing. But Neil sums up the problem brilliantly here...so many drivers reach F3 with so little talent, just big wallets. It's sad..families have indeed lost homes and businesses following the dream, believing their little Johnny will be the next big thing...and especially sad when this has happened when the kid really has got talent.

LITTLE GOLDEN BALLS

The problem starts years ago when little golden balls wanted to be a F1 driver.
So LGB starts at the bottom off the ladder at the right place in go-karts and having fun racing.
Then LGB wants to get quicker … Easy way rubber $$$ ... So daddy throws rubber at it. So LGB starts winning!.. starts thinking he will make F1. Karting cost around £10,000 to £100,000

The next step Formula Ford 1600 kent at a cost of around £20,000 - £40,000 per year. This is the best value single seat championship in the world it has been around for 45 years. But LGB is not too keen, as he has to work harder at his car control which he hasn’t got and there is too much passing going on…both not happy, so move on… (As they both don’t like hard work)

Next step Formula BMW or Formula Renault or what ever is around at the time at the cost of £150,000 to £250,000+ per year. Easy now because of the wings, down force, slicks, computers and no passing and the teams have big trucks.

Then comes British Formula 3. This is when the really big money starts! As Daddy wants LGB to be noticed by the F1 teams and is happy to pay £750,000. But there is a snag! As they have bought their way to this level it suddenly dawns on them that LGB is lacking in the ability to an F1 driver and who couldn’t drive out of sight on a dark night! This is why we are in the position we are with British F3 and only the very rich Little Golden Balls will make it now. It should be the most talented and most determined drivers who reach F1.

Years ago I heard of a story about a Roberto Moreno racing in an American Formula Atlantic. He turned up at a race meeting with Peewee (manager) driving a Jeep towing an open trailer with one car, two sets of tyres and one mechanic while all the other teams like Michael Andretti team had big Artics with air-con, four cars and an army of mechanics. Roberto whipped their arses, which just shows you don't need such a big team!

Motor racing has always been expensive and is a rich mans sport... How fast can you afford to go?

I have borrowed this from my good friend Neil Cunningham. Himself a good racer in FF & F3 and recently in historics until his illness has prevented more racing. But Neil sums up the problem brilliantly here...so many drivers reach F3 with so little talent, just big wallets. It's sad..families have indeed lost homes and businesses following the dream, believing their little Johnny will be the next big thing...and especially sad when this has happened when the kid really has got talent.

LITTLE GOLDEN BALLS

The problem starts years ago when little golden balls wanted to be a F1 driver.
So LGB starts at the bottom off the ladder at the right place in go-karts and having fun racing.
Then LGB wants to get quicker … Easy way rubber $$$ ... So daddy throws rubber at it. So LGB starts winning!.. starts thinking he will make F1. Karting cost around £10,000 to £100,000

The next step Formula Ford 1600 kent at a cost of around £20,000 - £40,000 per year. This is the best value single seat championship in the world it has been around for 45 years. But LGB is not too keen, as he has to work harder at his car control which he hasn’t got and there is too much passing going on…both not happy, so move on… (As they both don’t like hard work)

Next step Formula BMW or Formula Renault or what ever is around at the time at the cost of £150,000 to £250,000+ per year. Easy now because of the wings, down force, slicks, computers and no passing and the teams have big trucks.

Then comes British Formula 3. This is when the really big money starts! As Daddy wants LGB to be noticed by the F1 teams and is happy to pay £750,000. But there is a snag! As they have bought their way to this level it suddenly dawns on them that LGB is lacking in the ability to an F1 driver and who couldn’t drive out of sight on a dark night! This is why we are in the position we are with British F3 and only the very rich Little Golden Balls will make it now. It should be the most talented and most determined drivers who reach F1.

Years ago I heard of a story about a Roberto Moreno racing in an American Formula Atlantic. He turned up at a race meeting with Peewee (manager) driving a Jeep towing an open trailer with one car, two sets of tyres and one mechanic while all the other teams like Michael Andretti team had big Artics with air-con, four cars and an army of mechanics. Roberto whipped their arses, which just shows you don't need such a big team!

Motor racing has always been expensive and is a rich mans sport... How fast can you afford to go?

He was using the same whip in the early 80's at the Australian GP's where he left people like, Lauda, Rosberg, Piquet, Jones and Jolly Jacques Laffite in his wake.

Edited by W154, 01 February 2013 - 03:42.

He was using the same whip in the early 80's at the Australian GP's where he left people like Prost, Lauda, Rosberg, Piquet, Jones and Jolly Jacques Laffite in his wake.

Prost? Really?
http://en.wikipedia....lian_Grand_Prix

Ah, yes, my mistake. I thought it was Prost he defeated in 83 but it was the talentless JJL. So he only left 4 World Champions in his wake when racing against them in very similar cars.
Must have had his whip confiscated by Customs in 82 ! Prost deleted from original post.

Jacques Lafitte talentless? Not when I used to watch him he wasn't...He wasn't a Prost, but he wasn't a Richard Robarts either.

[ironic mode off]

I remember still Moreno´s words when he ran with a backmarker team, I think it was Forti. They asked him whether it would make fun to him to drive always at the end of the field and he said that he was glad to be there as he was driving in a race, the best job on earth...

I remember still Moreno´s words when he ran with a backmarker team, I think it was Forti. They asked him whether it would make fun to him to drive always at the end of the field and he said that he was glad to be there as he was driving in a race, the best job on earth...

Graham Hill said that you met a better class of person at the back of the grid!

"The 'rot' started, and this is going to be a controversial view, with Formula Ford and Formula Vee , as they added extra rungs to the ladder and stole support from existing F3 entries (for good reasons at the time but...)

I will take the bait.

F3 was still strong when we had FF2000 and Super Vee. The rot started when F3 became a"Dallara" formula. Once Mr Dallara discovered that there were sales of up to 100 cars a year to be had he developed cars and tooling that no one else could get near and as a result prices went through the roof either because (A) he had a monopoly or (B) because any other manufacturer had to pass on the development charges. You have to take your hat off to the man and his company but mini F1 cars for F3 was fine when they were made of steel, aluminium and GRP but not what was needed when most of the car is made of carbon fibre. Once again those who run our sport fell short in anticipating where this would lead and we now have a very poor formula.

No the rot is almost exclusively down to the fact that between them the FIA and Ecclestone progressively diluted the inportance of F3 from 90s on. We had a clear career path-F3 (preceded by FVL/FF/FR etc ) , F3000/GP2 and then F1. The route was clear- win in British or Euro F3 and you are in to F3000 etc. So I could watch my local round 20 miutes from home and think ...'that lad Button/Sato/Barrichello's quick/that boy Piquet/Pizzonia is overrated'. That was then. What we have now - or have had -is World Series by Renault; Superleague; A1(or was that the latter)GP 3 F2 and F4; Formula Renault/ BMW- what the **** is going on ?

That's the free market in action unfortunately. The same scourge that gives us one make racing in open classes. Eventually people will group up on one end or the other.

In the 60s there was F1,2,3
Logical and very international.

F2 series ran in Europe, England and France with stand-alone races across Europe and South America
F3 series ran right across europe and if you wanted to spend all season towing your F3 car round and collecting start money you could race in a different country every week. F3 was, in effect, the first rung on the dingle seater ladder after you started out with a sports car of some kind.
A healthy situation.
It really should have been pegged right there (with room to alter the technical regs as time progressed)

The 'rot' started, and this is going to be a controversial view, with Formula Ford and Formula Vee , as they added extra rungs to the ladder and stole support from existing F3 entries (for good reasons at the time but...)

In the 70s these two subdivided into Super Vee and FF2000, and Atlantic was added further diluting the pool. Now there were 5 rungs below F3 (these three all subsequently died out in Britain during the 80s I think).

Somewhere along the way Formula Renault was added in and subsequently that subdivided again and again, spread to Britain.

In the 80s John Webb started adding other spec-series in Britain (F Talbot, F First, F Forward, even the still-borne F Turbo Ford) Then we had 'Class B' In F3 as well.
FF1600 divided with the arrival, of Zetec engines and has never recovered it's 70s/80s stature. Then came more spec-series for Palmer Audi (also subdivided) F2, GP3, F4...

I agree 100%.

If you were there you know the truth of this post, no argument.

What we have experienced in subsequent decades proves only the old cliche, more is less.

And all of them have been sharing the single 'rung' on which F3 perched alone in the mid 60s. Logic says it's hardly surprising if grids do not flourish.

That's before you even get to all the various larger engined series that have appeared in the last decade or so Renault, Nissan, Superleague etc etc...

Somehow my three line response has found its way into Simon's post so I will repost it thus:

I agree 100%.

If you were there you know the truth of this post, no argument.

What we have experienced in subsequent decades proves only the old cliche, more is less.

. We had a clear career path-F3 (preceded by FVL/FF/FR etc ) , F3000/GP2 and then F1. The route was clear-

Just to elaborate my point - there was no serious "Preceded by" structure in the 60s F3 was pan-European, entry-level, race-anywhere, same-rules, race with and against the best so everyone who was anyone was, in theory, visible and relate-able to everyone else. And there was proper competition among the car-makers.Not an effective monopoly.
The promising drivers weren't, as now, often rigidly divided from one another by running on parallel lines that sometimes don't converge until F1.
There was one class and it was huge and healthy.
More to the point people knew what the hell it was in the grand scale of things. It was as simple as 1,2,3... Now it's neither simple nor healthy....nor huge!

You are right of course; but my point was that F3 still was valued and important- and well supported- until relatively recently. So it was a certain that Brundle and Senna, Barrichello and Button and Sato and Davidson would get , if not to the top, but somewhere close.Now- has anybody heard of anyone in either formula? I think FF 1600 and F3 could co-exist comfortably which they did for decades , Now both are shadows of what they were

I think FF 1600 and F3 could co-exist comfortably which they did for decades , Now both are shadows of what they were

The reasons that both F3 and Formula Ford 1600 "are shadows of what they were" are simple - they have had the core reason for their existence changed. FF1600 was, and still should be, the first step on the ladder after Karts. However so many other 'first step' formula have come along it has diluted the intake. Meanwhile as has already been said F3 has become a one-make formula but not only that F3 used to be the first 'slicks & wings' formula and was either the route to F1 or the next step on the way when F2 was in its prime. Unfortunately F3 has become an unnecessary formula which well-heeled youngsters can bypass en route to their goal of an F1 seat.

Racing now-a-days is what it is. All the various alternative single seater formulas have diluted the scene. Youngsters need a fortune to get to the top either their own families or a major sponsors. What it all boils down to is that a lot of talent isn't getting to the top - mind you it was ever thus.

My 2 pence worth.

Take an unknown Brazilian who arrives in the UK , arrives at a circuit he has not seen in a car he has not driven. gets Pole , leads from start to finish and sets fastest lap. After 5/6 races makes the switch to F3 and despite starting late win the Championship. He goes on to become World Champion.

His F/F passes to a South African who puts in some sterling performances , he later becomes World Champion.

A young upstart with a rather crash happy period races F/F . The man is described as a playboy but he too becomes a World Champion.

A young Australian arrives and goes through the Junior formula , shows great promise in F3 & Atlantic, he too becomes World Champion.

I could list numerous drivers who went on to F1 from FF1600.

That shows that we did have the right route for the ones with talent along with those with Daddies cash and not the same amount of talent.

The top factory team in 1971... how things have changed
GLTL Dave Walker, Croft 1971

Edited by JohnPackham, 03 February 2013 - 21:20.

The top factory team in 1971... how things have changed
GLTL Dave Walker, Croft 1971

Good picture - great transporter! Was that their F3 transporter? Don't remember it.

Didn't somebody say that a "History of Formula Three" had been written - or, at least, virtually finished - by the late Justin Haler? What happened to that project - wasn't somebody lined up to finish it? Or am I mistaken?

The top factory team in 1971... how things have changed
GLTL Dave Walker, Croft 1971

And something similar from Mallory (I have this as 1970 but maybe wrong)

And something similar from Mallory (I have this as 1970 but maybe wrong)

Well, I think it has to be 1971 looking at David Purley's Lec Transporter in the background and is that Peter Warr sat on the ramp to the GLTL transporter?!

My photo was 1971. 1970 was the last year of the 1000cc era.

You only have to look back at the diversity of chassis, engines and driver nationalities in F3 and F2 in the 60s and 70s to understand why the members of this forum are so nostalgic about these formulae.

I think that the best race I ever saw on the spot, in yer face and right there, was a round of the European F2 championship at Thruxton in 1977. So many different sights, colours and sounds, and a fantastic race to boot.

The last time I saw an F3 race was in July at Le Mans in 2002. The start was quite exciting, but then the cars just trundled around like farting ducks at 30-yard intervals, without the slightest hope of any overtaking or action of any kind. At the end, the race the winner thanked his great team, expressed his unbridled joy and his sponsors went home happy. But what a bore!

Edward

Another thought from a 1970s enthusiast...

I have always thought that Formula Atlantic and F5000 helped to toll the bell for F3 and F2, at least in the UK. I never really understood the reasons behind Formula Atlantic and, while F5000 was occasionally spectacular, it was always very much an Anglo-Saxon affair and, apart from the odd race on the continent, never really achieved an international dimension, at least not in Europe.

Edward

Regazzoni.

No, I had to endure countless boring Formula Atlantic races at Brands Hatch in the 1970s, just waiting for the next F3 race...

And by the way, the great Riccardo flat-spotted his brakes several times right in front of me at Campbell Corner in that race. He should have won...

Edward

Edited by SEdward, 04 February 2013 - 19:12.

I always though FA was a club (national) version of F2, much as F5000 was to F1.

I always though FA was a club (national) version of F2, much as F5000 was to F1.

Formula A was F5000 in the US...

Regazzoni.

No, I had to endure countless boring Formula Atlantic races at Brands Hatch in the 1970s, just waiting for the next F3 race...

And by the way, the great Riccardo flat-spotted his brakes several times right in front of me at Campbell Corner in that race. He should have won...

Edward

I was at Campbell that day too. If I'd seen you, we could have had a healthy argument about Formula Atlantic. There were some great races! Vandervell, Friswell, Brise, Jones, Nicholson, Crawford etc. You must have picked the bad ones.... I do admit to being slightly confused at the time by Atlantic's position in the hierarchy of formulae. It was definitely above Caravan racing, but below Formula 1.

Edited by john winfield, 04 February 2013 - 21:13.

I was at Campbell that day too. If I'd seen you, we could have had a healthy argument about Formula Atlantic. There were some great races! Vandervell, Friswell, Brise, Jones, Nicholson, Crawford etc. You must have picked the bad ones.... I do admit to being slightly confused at the time by Atlantic's position in the hierarchy of formulae. It was definitely above Caravan racing, but below Formula 1.

Certainly the early days of Formula Atlantic in the UK were good but it didn't half tail off.

Certainly the early days of Formula Atlantic in the UK were good but it didn't half tail off.

At least Atlantic's sounded a lot better than the air-restricted F3s, which were always hard on the ear...

Edward, Atlantic was great here from about 73-75, and much better than F3 IMHO. But were both great in terms of chassis variety, close racing, nice looking cars. As you say, its no wonder so many of us on here look back with Rose Tints to the 70s...

Formula A was F5000 in the US...

Being English and living in England at the time, FA => Formula Atlantic

Just read the headline in the new "Motorsport Aktuell", that Gerhard Berger has the task to get some order into the "formula chaos". The new idea shall be F1 - F2 - F3 - F4. Whow, how on earth could they come to such a sensational idea?

For me for a long time world had been quite in order. There was the official hierarchy of F1, F2, F3 (plus some odd 'unofficial' Formulas like F5000, FFord, Formula V etc, but still with quite open technical variety), but then they introduced F3000! I never understood that. It was de facto still Formula 2, only under a different name. In Britain the national F3000 series even ran as Formula 2 for a while, but then what should have been named Formula 2 became the GP 2 series, accompanied by the GP 3, while the name Formula 2 was given to one of the many single-make series. What a mess! This is how to destroy brands!

Also note the change in wording from "formula" to "series". Formerly you could have national F3 series, international F3 series, even national F1 series like the Aurora championship, but any car fitting to the formula could run in any corresponding series. Thus helping to develop the "nomad circus". Now any series has to have its own formula exclusively, so participants are quite limited in their starting options.

Edited by uechtel, 05 February 2013 - 13:07.

I've just read elsewhere "MSV Chief Executive Jonathan Palmer said: "It is clear that British motorsport needs a new single seater championship that really attracts the young talent of today to produce large competitive grids of drivers aiming for F1."

Needs?... Needs?

It looks to me like another spec. (read "boring" for engineers) formula like all the formulae criticised in this thread. I see they're also quoting budgets of £35000 for DIY drivers and £70000 for rent-a-drive teams. I look forward to the end of season reviews to find a champion who spent only £70000!

(I'm clearly out of touch because the last time I looked, F4 was a small club formula in Britain run by the 750MC.)

Also note the change in wording from "formula" to "series". Formerly you could have national F3 series, international F3 series, even national F1 series like the Aurora championship, but any car fitting to the formula could run in any corresponding series. Thus helping to develop the "nomad circus". Now any series has to have its own formula exclusively, so participants are quite limited in their starting options.

Spot on.
This localizing of series/championships/races has been a feature of the past three or four decades and tailoring rules to exclude similar cars from competing has filtered all the way down the ladder.

I raced in a Saloon car series which was in appearances very like two others (what were then known as the "Slick 50" and " Toyo" series) but even though all three looked much the same to the spectator and lapped at a broadly comparable pace, one allowed rose-joined suspension, another required rubber bushes, one had a 3 litre limit, the other 3.5 litre, one allowed freedom in the brakes, the others specified original manufacturers spec , one had an age limit on the cars that were permitted, one banned 4wd etc etc...

So the net result was that is you built a car to be competitive in one series it was illegal for the others and instead of doing maybe 12 races a season you were limited to perhaps 8.
Who loses? Everyone I would have thought.

You know it makes sense...

I'm not sure quite where the new young "talent" coming out of F4 is going to go as F3 is dead in the water.

Isn't motor racing about more than Formula 1? It is to me.

[quote name='JohnPackham'

(I'm clearly out of touch because the last time I looked, F4 was a small club formula in Britain run by the 750MC.)
[/quote]


750MC sold the F4 name to MSV at the end of last year,

Renaming F4 750GP, I see they have now changed it name again to 750SSC . (I haven't check today so it my be called something else by now)

May be Bernie objected to the use of GP

[quote name='John Saunders' post='6117207' date='Feb 5 2013, 17:10'][quote name='JohnPackham'

Renaming F4 750GP, I see they have now changed it name again to 750SSC . (I haven't check today so it my be called something else by now)

May be Bernie objected to the use of GP :rotfl:[/quote]

And Richard Noble could object to the use of SSC I guess? Ain't modern life complicated?

And Richard Noble could object to the use of SSC I guess? Ain't modern life complicated?

Yes, Simon but what's the Thrust of your argument?...

I'm not sure quite where the new young "talent" coming out of F4 is going to go as F3 is dead in the water.

Isn't motor racing about more than Formula 1? It is to me.

Me too- but very few others sadly. And most of them are on here... Good discussion between Simon Taylor and Oliver Gavin about this in Motor Sport- the point was rigtly made that F1 used to be the top of the pyramid which represented motorsport. Beneath were F2 , sports cars F3 etc. But not any more- there is now one enormous megalith which is F1 and F1 alone-and it will cost you £250m or whatever a year. Next to it is really rather modest little pyramid- Sports Cas and WTCC etc at top , the usual suspects beneath; cost maybe £12m a season tops .Still big money but think how much great single seater racing you could get from what even Marussia spends.

Reason? We all know why...the media, telly especially, covered motor spot because lots of people watched it. The media didn't influence it especially , just filmed and wrote about what was happening. But along comes our old friend the paradigm shift- balance reversed to the extent that media exposure is the most important and possibly the only real factor which controls what the sport comprises. Guilty parties- Ecclestone and Mosley as co conspirators , aided and abetted by others too numerous to mention.

12million? Jesus, you could get a very decent MotoGP team for that.