FIA Formula E Championship for EVs looking likely for 2013

What do you think?

My view: you can hear the tires screamimg, not the engines.......


http://www.gizmag.co...hip-2013/20325/

http://www.fia.com/e...a-formula-e.pdf

My proposal: give them all the same chassis like a Radical and see who is the best engineer.
Such low cost cars would open the serie to small companies.......

cheers!

Michael

No "Vroom - Vroom", no care.

http://www.autoblog....-inside-bmw-m5/

I had a quick look at it and it was spec drivetrain or single supplier if you like...

And at that point i considered it to be a boring class.

Regarding its enterainment value. I could watch it but no way i would pay for it or travel anywhere to see these things in person. Its only 15min after all.

Edited by MatsNorway, 01 November 2011 - 09:05.

The electric motorcycle series have been going well for years now.
Unfortunately the media both specialised and general are still avoiding coverage.
Until this corruption is dealt with EVs will remain totaly held back by the motor head brigade and the oil barons.
They cant stand it up em Mr Manering.

The electric motorcycle series have been going well for years now.
Unfortunately the media both specialised and general are still avoiding coverage.
Until this corruption is dealt with EVs will remain totaly held back by the motor head brigade and the oil barons.
They cant stand it up em Mr Manering.

Define "going well"

A massive field of Nine bikes started the 2011 IOM electric TT.

With a stunning five bikes managing to complete a lap.....

Obviously media corruption is hampering e-bikes

A massive field of Nine bikes started the 2011 IOM electric TT.

With a stunning five bikes managing to complete a lap.....

Obviously media corruption is hampering e-bikes

Hehe, but really.... we should have mercy on hes poor soul for being a believer of all sorts of wierd conspiracies..

hhhahaha!

Hehe, but really.... we should have mercy on hes poor soul for being a believer of all sorts of wierd conspiracies..

hhhahaha!

http://www.egrandpri...news.php?id=256

It sure is.

I can't see what's so great about this: these bikes are 30% slower around Le Mans than a 125cc and can only manage less than a third of the distance.

If it could be argued that these things were helping push EV tech in the right direction I'd be more sympathetic, but they're not: they represent virtually the pinacle of current and near-medium future EV tech.

Edited by Spoofski, 02 November 2011 - 07:28.

If it could be argued that these things were helping push EV tech in the right direction I'd be more sympathetic, but they're not: they represent virtually the pinacle of current and near-medium future EV tech.

Well a spec series can hardly be expected to provoke development. The trick is to have just enough rules but not too many. In world solar car racing circles a 10 year old car can still be fairly competitive because the technology has more or less plateaued, within the rule set. Aero has improved a bit, cell efficiencies may have crept up a little, but really that's yer lot.

The problem with open racing is that it turns into a game of budgets, with the occasional bit of insight, or thorough rethink, pointing out the correct path for the next increment in performance.

As we've pointed out time and again, racing is generally a bad place to try and develop new technologies.

I can't see what's so great about this: these bikes are 30% slower around Le Mans than a 125cc and can only manage less than a third of the distance.

If it could be argued that these things were helping push EV tech in the right direction I'd be more sympathetic, but they're not: they represent virtually the pinacle of current and near-medium future EV tech.

So 125cc motorcycle racing is irelevent then?
I think you should remember that most of motor sport car or bikes are the lower formula.
If you are directly involved in Moto GP or F1, fine your opinion is noted, if not then I suggest you consider more carefuly.
Electric racing is developing faster than any other form of motor sport.
Conventional top motor sport formula are basicaly stagnant and hampered by draconian regulation that has prevented real technical progress for years.

Unfortunately the media both specialised and general are still avoiding coverage.
Until this corruption is dealt with EVs will remain totaly held back by the motor head brigade and the oil barons.

Not that I generally like emoticons, but sometimes...

So 125cc motorcycle racing is irelevent then?
I think you should remember that most of motor sport car or bikes are the lower formula.
If you are directly involved in Moto GP or F1, fine your opinion is noted, if not then I suggest you consider more carefuly.
Electric racing is developing faster than any other form of motor sport.
Conventional top motor sport formula are basicaly stagnant and hampered by draconian regulation that has prevented real technical progress for years.

So the worst, most fettered form of IC racing is still faster, with greater range than the most advanced, unrestricted form of EV racing.

I don't see any worthwhile, realistic EV developments on the horizon. Batteries and motors are conceptually as ancient, more so, than IC engines.

So the worst, most fettered form of IC racing is still faster, with greater range than the most advanced, unrestricted form of EV racing.

I don't see any worthwhile, realistic EV developments on the horizon. Batteries and motors are conceptually as ancient, more so, than IC engines.

Push bike racing is slower than both but they still race and the media shows interest.
So the argument means nothing.

The direct comparison on performance and range is only relevent for road cars.
Electric bike and car racing is just as potentialy competitive as any other racing sport.

The motor heads already know this well enough though.
To them it is an excuse to continue with ancient technology that has no future.

It continues to annoy me that the motor head argument remains glued to making range and performance comparisons between Evs and IC vs and then using the current technical position to argue against the use of EVs.

The actual argument should be, what can we replace IC vs with, that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuel and clean up our act.
The need to do this will not go away and will become increasingly more important with time.
The practical user 'efficiency' of ICvs is not in question, with centuries of development IMO the current level is not that good.
It is realy no more than a convenience 'habit'. Vroom Vroom fellas.

The actual argument should be, what can we replace IC vs with, that will reduce our reliance on fossil fuel and clean up our act.

I am, as they say, all ears.

Electric motors are already very efficient so the progress is going to come from developments in super capacitor and battery technology coupled with efficiencies in saving power from braking.

I would expect lap times for the electric vehicles to keep improving (e.g. IOM TT ) at quite a rate and even if motor sport does not push the technology it will at least highlight what progress is being made.

Any sport that sees major improvements in performance is interesting to follow and currently electric vehicles lead the way here.

I am totally against standard drive trains in a sport like this as it is totally missing the point.

Well said Scolbourne

Conventional top motor sport formula are basicaly stagnant and hampered by draconian regulation that has prevented real technical progress for years.

Motor Sport, meaning motor'ised competition, is about more than 2 cars racing each other, making lots of noise and going at least fast enough to need a driver to exert reasonable input to control it or even better the driver to have definate control.

The IC engine currently covers the motor'ised side of it just dandy thanks and not only that, recent years have seen a huge growth with historic racing to older IC engines.

Electric racing is developing faster than any other form of motor sport.

Yeah well statistics are statistics and going from 3 vehicles to 6 may be a 100% increase but it's still only 3 more vehicles.

Edited by cheapracer, 10 November 2011 - 09:28.

Do you think there is a sort of parallel between electric vs IC cars with motoring enthusiasts and steam vs diesel or electric locos with the train buffs? No one would argue that a diesel or electric loco doesn't do just about everything better than a steamer, but they don't arouse much passion amongst the enthusiasts. Bring a steam loco out for a run on the other hand and the train buffs are out in force (resplendent in socks and sandals).

Edited by Grumbles, 10 November 2011 - 09:32.

Electric motors are already very efficient so the progress is going to come from developments in super capacitor and battery technology coupled with efficiencies in saving power from braking.

I would expect lap times for the electric vehicles to keep improving (e.g. IOM TT ) at quite a rate and even if motor sport does not push the technology it will at least highlight what progress is being made.

Any sport that sees major improvements in performance is interesting to follow and currently electric vehicles lead the way here.

I am totally against standard drive trains in a sport like this as it is totally missing the point.

I agree with most of your comments.
Racing is the best place to 'completely' replace conventional brakes with re-charge brakes and to develop this technology where there is a huge benefit in both increased range and reduced weight.
This works for EVs and Hybrid race cars.
Road EV cars, unless in city stop start use, do not save much in regen braking, so the incentive is not there as yet.

The drive train regulations are a double edged sword.
There has to be tightly controlled formula with some classes of EV racing because up to now there has not been a level playing field to attract teams and sponsors into the new technology.
There also has to be EV formula' as open technicaly as possible to allow 'real' development of the powertrains.
Such open formula are beyond the thinking of the current FIA, which for many years has been snagged in cost saving and media demands for spectacle at the expense of technical progress.
Both sets of regulation will require far more effort by both the FIA and anybody running any EV series if success is to be assured.
At present IMO this will not be the case short term, which will suit the motor head views that are mainly against EV racing at the expense of the worlds future energy needs.
I believe this is a major mistake and people like Bernie should take a much harder and longer look into the future.
I drew up a paper for the FIA in January 2010 that suggested a sensible way forward for EV racing, it helped to push things a little but the concept is pretty well stalled at present.
A huge pity Max is not back as FIA President.

No "Vroom - Vroom", no care.

Personally, I am close to not caring about aero focused and farting exhaust focused formula.

Electric motors are already very efficient so the progress is going to come from developments in super capacitor and battery technology coupled with efficiencies in saving power from braking.

I would expect lap times for the electric vehicles to keep improving (e.g. IOM TT ) at quite a rate and even if motor sport does not push the technology it will at least highlight what progress is being made.

Any sport that sees major improvements in performance is interesting to follow and currently electric vehicles lead the way here.

I am totally against standard drive trains in a sport like this as it is totally missing the point.

Supercaps aren't man enough and Ultracaps are still miles away from being usable. Even if the energy density were comparable with a LiIon battery the fact that the voltage falls at the terminals means you'd need a DC to DC converter or similar to ensure you could get a constant output.

Batteries are forecast to be around 20% greater storage by 2020 (from a NASA survey looking at electric moon buggies for that time-frame) which is still hopeless.

EV 'racing' will do nothing to accelerate storage technologies: these are driven entirely by cellphones, laptops and similar. Maybe one could list the spinoff benefits of KERS......

Personally, I am close to not caring about aero focused and farting exhaust focused formula.

...and there's more race classes in the world than F1.

As you can see there has been a staggering 750% increase in the sales of electric cars (BYD E6) in China, this month 15 people overran showrooms all over China, Police had to be called in ...




Those Nissan Tiida's are everywhere, I don't understand it myself, just a car and nothing really special along with a normal sort of a price for it's segment

Edited by cheapracer, 12 November 2011 - 06:26.

An EV championship will make the crowds at 2litre Aussie meetings look huge in comparison. Meaning there will be 10 times as many people in the pits than spectating instead of 3 times.
What promoter is going to pick that one up!!

I would bet on electric cars being faster than ic cars within not too many years.
I also think that we will get much more than 20% power from batteries in 2020 than from current batteries. This 20% was a conservative figure used by NASA for design purposes.
My guess is something like 100% more power and new materials like nanotubes could make this 1000% more. How does the increase in available power in the last 20 years look ?

I would bet on electric cars being faster than ic cars within not too many years.
I also think that we will get much more than 20% power from batteries in 2020 than from current batteries. This 20% was a conservative figure used by NASA for design purposes.
My guess is something like 100% more power and new materials like nanotubes could make this 1000% more. How does the increase in available power in the last 20 years look ?

Lets get real, an electric motor has a very flat torque curve, and lots of it. It does not accelarate well and does not rev very hard either. Great as a stationary engine but very average in a normal car yet alone a race car.
And that is before the obvious battery woes

Lets get real, an electric motor has a very flat torque curve, and lots of it. It does not accelarate well and does not rev very hard either. Great as a stationary engine but very average in a normal car yet alone a race car.
And that is before the obvious battery woes

I am sorry Lee, I thought you were an inteligent engineer, I must have been wrong.
Your comments make absolutely no sense.

I would bet on electric cars being faster than ic cars within not too many years.

Only by using the rules to limit the output of IC engines but unlimited IC engines v electric no chance.Electric cars should stay where they belong as toys not the real thing.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by Vanishing Point, 12 November 2011 - 18:09.

Regarding the performance of Electric cars and their technology.

Back in the day IC Radio controlled cars where much much faster than electric but as the batteries progressed they crawled closer and closer..

The way you can tell best how electric cars in racing is delevoping is by looking at how a scale the RC electric cars stays competitive.

in 1/12 scale pan cars electric was faster probably allready back in the 80s. at least over a single lap or 8min races.

in 1/10 scale touring they where probably faster around the year 2005 or later over a single lap. or 5min race.

in 1/8 track they are on the limit right now. they lack top speed but goes like mad in the midfield and in corner exit. could probably stay competitive in a 10-15min race.

the electric 1/8 scale off road class is a popular one. due to the controllability of the electric cars they are also faster over a single lap.Could possibly go good in longer races too as they don`t need that much power all the time.

Edited by MatsNorway, 12 November 2011 - 21:11.

Only by using the rules to limit the output of IC engines but unlimited IC engines v electric no chance.Electric cars should stay where they belong as toys not the real thing.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Lost the plot here have we?

What has any of this got to do with comparing ic racing cars with electric racing cars?

You would make just as little sense if you compared racing cycles with motor bikes.
Totaly daft and invalid statements.

Lost the plot here have we?

What has any of this got to do with comparing ic racing cars with electric racing cars?

You would make just as little sense if you compared racing cycles with motor bikes.
Totaly daft and invalid statements.

It's the arguments of all those saying that electric powered cars can be competitive with 'proper' engine powered ones,in whatever type of comparable motorsport,who are making little sense.Although it's understandable why there'd be an alliance between the raving Global Warming believers and the electricity producers to (try to) create a massive change in the power source of all types of motor vehicles.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 12 November 2011 - 22:35.

No "Vroom - Vroom", no care.

http://www.autoblog....-inside-bmw-m5/

I attended a Porsche 991 Technology presentation in Weissach recently.. quote of the day was: "all the noises inside the new 991 are real mechanical noises, unlike some of the competition..", coming from a very serious Dr. mr. sc. german engineer, made me laugh quite a bit..

p.s. active anti roll bars on that car are something else..

Lets get real, an electric motor has a very flat torque curve, and lots of it. It does not accelarate well and does not rev very hard either.

Lee I am one of the most anti EV here but that is simply not true, one thing electric car's do extremely well is initial acceleration.

"all the noises inside the new 991 are real mechanical noises, unlike some of the competition..", coming from a very serious Dr. mr. sc. german engineer,

We get a couple of German engineers to our company and they are very funny although initially you wouldn't think so. Very dry humour that often goes over peoples heads..

Lee I am one of the most anti EV here but that is simply not true, one thing electric car's do extremely well is initial acceleration.




We get a couple of German engineers to our company and they are very funny although initially you wouldn't think so. Very dry humour that often goes over peoples heads..

Cheapy, that is pure torque couples with tall [normally final drive] gearing. Get that sort of torque through a gearbox and it will just spin the tyres,,,, and then stop accelarating. A piston engine suitable for racing will have a say 3000rpm power curve where you can drive it on the gears. An electric motor has no real power band and shitloads of torque and does not have to and in fact will not rev really hard. Which is how a racecar accelerates.

Though EV racing could be spiced up. Milk cart racing. But there is none of those left!!

Cheapy, that is pure torque couples with tall [normally final drive] gearing. Get that sort of torque through a gearbox and it will just spin the tyres,,,, and then stop accelarating. A piston engine suitable for racing will have a say 3000rpm power curve where you can drive it on the gears. An electric motor has no real power band and shitloads of torque and does not have to and in fact will not rev really hard. Which is how a racecar accelerates.

Though EV racing could be spiced up. Milk cart racing. But there is none of those left!!

Please please please go and do some research.

Please please please go and do some research.

+1

that was bad Lee.

Lee I am one of the most anti EV here but that is simply not true, one thing electric car's do extremely well is initial acceleration.

I think that's the point that Lee was trying to make.The idea is to make loads of (specific) torque and then sustain it as far up the rev range as possible.Which is why I took the comparison to it's logical conclusion by comparing the world's fastest electric powered dragster with an average top fuel one.The only answer that was provided to that was that I'm trying to compare cycle racing with motorcycle racing.Maybe the EV fans could provide some details concerning what it would take in technolgy and packaging to make an electric powered dragster that's able to beat a good old fashioned conventionally powered one with around 8,000 hp.The same basic difference,between the potential abilities of EV's v Conventional IC reciprocating engines,applies at all levels and types.The comparison between the development of small toy electric powered remote control cars compared to conventional IC powered ones is erroneous because specific torque outputs of IC engines increases with engine size.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 13 November 2011 - 15:13.

I have a design for a zero torque loss gear shift combination electric motor powertrain that would fit the bill.
All it needs is the investment to build it and both the performance and range issues of EVs would be sorted.

And no I am not coming out of retirement to sell the idea.
I cant stand some of the morons I would have to deal with.
If any company wants it then they must pay me for it starting with expenses.

Edited by 24gerrard, 13 November 2011 - 16:20.

I think that's the point that Lee was trying to make.The idea is to make loads of (specific) torque and then sustain it as far up the rev range as possible.Which is why I took the comparison to it's logical conclusion by comparing the world's fastest electric powered dragster with an average top fuel one.The only answer that was provided to that was that I'm trying to compare cycle racing with motorcycle racing.Maybe the EV fans could provide some details concerning what it would take in technolgy and packaging to make an electric powered dragster that's able to beat a good old fashioned conventionally powered one with around 8,000 hp.The same basic difference,between the potential abilities of EV's v Conventional IC reciprocating engines,applies at all levels and types.The comparison between the development of small toy electric powered remote control cars compared to conventional IC powered ones is erroneous because specific torque outputs of IC engines increases with engine size.

There is no comparison to make.
I have driven dragsters and run a team of three in the 1970s.
Carrying enough high powered liquid fuel to give 3000 plus hp for a quarter mile means what exactly?

It is possible to build an electric dragster to run a quarter mile with cables attached and NO batteries.
With the right motors where would the power limit end?
With similar power and no energy payload, with a flat torque curve the electric dragster would be much faster.

Damn I have given the idea for EV drag racing in the sub three second level using overhead power away now.

Edited by 24gerrard, 13 November 2011 - 16:45.

It is possible to build an electric dragster to run a quarter mile with cables attached and NO batteries.
With the right motors where would the power limit end?
With similar power and no energy payload, with a flat torque curve the electric dragster would be much faster.

Damn I have given the idea for EV drag racing in the sub three second level using overhead power away now.

I get it so to beat something with a proper engine in it you'll need to put a TGV rail type electrical power system on every race circuit and drag strip and public road to get round all the issues of fitting enough batteries in your toy car to make the thing go.

But how big and heavy will that/those electric motor/s need to be to give you that sub 3 second pass.Overhead power lines we've already been there done that and if the bus companies thought that nuclear power was the way to solve all the issues of cheap power on the road you can bet that they and the trucking companies would be paying you a fortune to get trolley buses and electric trucks on the road first before bothering with racing cars running a few miles every weekend.

http://farm4.static...._3b6c23078e.jpg

Edited by Vanishing Point, 13 November 2011 - 17:16.

About the weight of a 8000hp EL motor.

the most aggressive RC motor i know about got 1800W in burst and weights 166grams

thats

(0.067kg/hp)x8000hp = 536kgs.

not half bad i would say...

give it some nitrogen cooling and higher voltage and it will be able to produce same amount of power with less weight. Its not even a 3-fase motor.

Its probably not a issue getting even stronger motors as this one is regulated my rules for RC racing.

efficiency: 84.1%

RPM who is not so relevant perhaps is 11000 pr volt.

How much does a top fuel Nitro motor weight?

About the weight of a 8000hp EL motor.

the most aggressive RC motor i know about got 1800W in burst and weights 166grams

thats

(0.067kg/hp)x8000hp = 536kgs.

not half bad i would say...

give it some nitrogen cooling and higher voltage and it will be able to produce same amount of power with less weight. Its not even a 3-fase motor.

Its probably not a issue getting even stronger motors as this one is regulated my rules for RC racing.

efficiency: 84.1%

RPM who is not so relevant perhaps is 11000 pr volt.

How much does a top fuel Nitro motor weight?

Around 200-300 kgs.But the relevant figure would be both torque and horsepower per kg not just hp based on a figure of around 5000 lbs/ft at peak torque for the proper engine v ? for the toy one.

I get it so to beat something with a proper engine in it you'll need to put a TGV rail type electrical power system on every race circuit and drag strip and public road to get round all the issues of fitting enough batteries in your toy car to make the thing go.

But how big and heavy will that/those electric motor/s need to be to give you that sub 3 second pass.Overhead power lines we've already been there done that and if the bus companies thought that nuclear power was the way to solve all the issues of cheap power on the road you can bet that they and the trucking companies would be paying you a fortune to get trolley buses and electric trucks on the road first before bothering with racing cars running a few miles every weekend.

http://farm4.static...._3b6c23078e.jpg

Now you are talking, trolley buses and trams.
Guess what, GM bought them all up in the 1930s and replaced them with petrol buses just as Dream land entered the first depression.
They shot America in the foot with that one but they were looking forward to WW2 at the time.
Wars were always the usual way out of the greed caused economic failures of the past.
Keeps the bankers profitable.

What is a 'proper' motor?
It cant be something that burns fuel at over £10 a gallon and wastes most of it.
Sounds like a concept from cloud cuckoo land to me.

Now you are talking, trolley buses and trams.
Guess what, GM bought them all up in the 1930s and replaced them with petrol buses just as Dream land entered the first depression.
They shot America in the foot with that one but they were looking forward to WW2 at the time.
Wars were always the usual way out of the greed caused economic failures of the past.
Keeps the bankers profitable.

What is a 'proper' motor?
It cant be something that burns fuel at over £10 a gallon and wastes most of it.
Sounds like a concept from cloud cuckoo land to me.

We were still using trolley buses into the 1960's but the fact that they decided to scrap the lot had nothing to do with GM or WW2 and that was even with cheap domestic coal generated electricity let alone expensive nuclear generated power.I think you'll find it's a lot more expensive and a lot less practical to burn coal and turn it into electricity for trolley buses and electric cars than to use home produced oil/petrol and burn it in a decent IC 'proper' engine instead.If only Jaguar and Mercedes had designed their big V12 and V8 'proper' engines as forced induction instead of NA and the best years of Le Mans were those of the Group C era when Mercedes finally realised that a big forced induction V8 was the way to go which then eventually reached their road car engines.A big forced induction proper engine is still as relevant today as it has always been.

It's just a shame that the government flogged off all of our oil and now taxes us more than it's worth to use what's left and wants us to use even more expensive (and dangerous) nuclear power instead.To add insult to injury that probably also means slower,less practical,electric cars for the privilege.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 13 November 2011 - 20:22.

We get a couple of German engineers to our company and they are very funny although initially you wouldn't think so. Very dry humour that often goes over peoples heads..

I really liked their subtle dig at BMW.. Anyway, real cool bunch of engineers at Porsche..

It is possible to build an electric dragster to run a quarter mile with cables attached and NO batteries.
With the right motors where would the power limit end?
With similar power and no energy payload, with a flat torque curve the electric dragster would be much faster.

Damn I have given the idea for EV drag racing in the sub three second level using overhead power away now.

Oh great, tram racing.

Around 200-300 kgs.But the relevant figure would be both torque and horsepower per kg not just hp based on a figure of around 5000 lbs/ft at peak torque for the proper engine v ? for the toy one.

i was thinking of estimating the weight.. they could possibly get the EL motor down at 300kgs. Pure guessing ofc. utilising nitrogen for cooling and push it harder than the motor mentioned as that one got no cooling at all appart from perhaps a tiny fan inside.

Nothing comes close to a electric motor in start torque..

the units you use in your statement says me nothing.. im working with metric only. Nm?

Even these tiny high reving electro motors got a decent torque curve.

would you not say? and if thats a problem gearboxes does work with electric cars too.

We were still using trolley buses into the 1960's but the fact that they decided to scrap the lot had nothing to do with GM or WW2 and that was even with cheap domestic coal generated electricity let alone expensive nuclear generated power.I think you'll find it's a lot more expensive and a lot less practical to burn coal and turn it into electricity for trolley buses and electric cars than to use home produced oil/petrol and burn it in a decent IC 'proper' engine instead.If only Jaguar and Mercedes had designed their big V12 and V8 'proper' engines as forced induction instead of NA and the best years of Le Mans were those of the Group C era when Mercedes finally realised that a big forced induction V8 was the way to go which then eventually reached their road car engines.A big forced induction proper engine is still as relevant today as it has always been.

It's just a shame that the government flogged off all of our oil and now taxes us more than it's worth to use what's left and wants us to use even more expensive (and dangerous) nuclear power instead.To add insult to injury that probably also means slower,less practical,electric cars for the privilege.

Wrong

Those Nissan Tiida's are everywhere, I don't understand it myself, just a car and nothing really special along with a normal sort of a price for it's segment

The crap styling must be Feng shui.