Inaccurate models and poor research

Today at a toyfair I saw a model I haven't seen before and promptly paid out a fiver for it. It was an old Vitesse model of the 1962 Safari winning VW (it's "Limited Edition L002" so it must be one of their first)

It's a nice little red model with rally numbers, rally plates, the correct registration numbers and spotlights in the right places. But it's left hand drive and nearly all Safari VWs were right hand drive as they were locally purchased cars. In East Africa, like Britain they drive on the left (well, most of the time!). Poor research or no research by Vitesse.

It annoys me when a model maker goes to the trouble of making a special model and gets details wrong. It happens at the top end as well as the bottom end of the price range.

For example:
Mike Hawthorn insisted on a four-spoke steering wheel. He liked to push on the spoke with his thumb. But many models of the 1955 Le Mans Jaguar have standard 3-spoke wheels as did the model of his 3.4 saloon. Possibly taking the mickey, Moss had a 3-spoke wheel in "722" when he won the Mille Miglia but most models have 4 spokes.
A "budget" model of a Gold Leaf Lotus 49 with high wing had race number 6 and I can't find any instance of that car running with number 6.
Caracciola's Mille Miglia Mercedes with a nicely modelled toolbox - but on the wrong side of the car.
A large scale top of the market Auto Union with "Dunlop" tyres with the wrong tread pattern.
A rally Austin Healey with the standard road car grille but the correct bootlid with a bulge to accommodate a spare wheel
As for Brumm - they deserve a chapter of their own. But in fairness, they do seem to be improving.

I accept that basically you get what you pay for. But, I would think that compared to tooling costs the additional costs of researching the details correctly are relatively low.

Having got that off my chest, I have to say that I would rather have an inaccurate affordable model of a particular car rather have none at all.

Edited by D-Type, 01 September 2012 - 20:40.

Duncan,

Sometimes ist just the manufacturer wants to benefit from the molds and parts they already have on hand and just want to amortize their costs as much as possible. This happens mostly at lower end stuff (say $30 and below), but you also see it in much more expensive ($300 and up) limited edition models. It might be just out of poor research, but sometimes its flat out to make more money off of parts already laying around.

Yes, I can accept that in the case of "recycled" models but there is no excuse in the case of "first time" models. It's the sloppiness that I find annoying eg Brumm had castings of shortnose and longnose D-Types available but they used the [incorrect] longnose one for several of their variants.

My LHD Volkswagen is now another "to do sometime" project along with the Mille Miglia SSK's toolbox, the windscreen on my Brumm 300SLR "722" (I see they have now corrected it - why didn't they get it right first time? ), the clear plastic cockpit cover on my Top Model Aston Martin DBR1, etc. Then, when I get a printer that can print decals (and I learn how to use it!), I'll be able to correct some of the misnumbering - or rather the cars with "typical" numbers that were never used.

I believe Brumm only had one D Type casting which they tried to use for both long & shortnose variants with the result that neither looked right. Thing is though under those circumstances most buyers don't know the difference! I was always reluctant to buy in stocks of Brumm D Types although to a certain extent the D Type used to be my stock in trade. I didn't want to sell things which I could see at a glance were wrong... yet when I did have them they were good sellers.

SMTS always annoyed me with their attempts to make one casting cover Series 1, 2 and 3 XJ6.

Your Vitesse VW would have been a very early one, nice casting as I recall but the desire is to get the maximum number of variants out of one casting without too many changes. Probably cheaper to sell incorrect models to the "great unwashed" than to make a small change to get it right. Believe me there were "collectors" out there whose only desire was to have models of as many VWs as possible, whether they were accurate, or even existed didn't come into it.

Then there is the problem of the 1920's Bentley colour. Starter made their '27-'30 Le Mans winners in an Apple Green which was the colour, according to GP models, the guy that painted the real cars said was right. Everyone said it was wrong, far too light. I met a great chap called Len Butler at Donington, he had replicas (full scale!) of the 1927 team cars painted Parsons Napier Green which is a little darker than Starter but nowhere near as dark as the traditional BRG.
I believe him when he says that this is definitely correct. When IXO produced their models I emailed them to say they were too dark, their reply was astounding. "We know but Bentley motors insisted that we do them this colour".

Wrong colours are something that puts me off all the time.

For example the Lamborghini 350GTV by Starlight in silver. Okay, they make it also in the correct green.
Or the white Lamborghini Bravo by Minichamps. I've never seen in any of my Lamborghini books or anywhere else a picture of the real car in white.

Fantasy paint jobs for toymodels are fine. Same counts for old Politoys. Back at the time they didn't really care. I just wish they would stick to the truth with higher priced collectors models.

And all those models of Moss's TT-winning 250GTO with white number roundels.

And all those models of Moss's TT-winning 250GTO with white number roundels.

GTO!!

How about Oxford's OO gauge "Hawthorn" Mark 2 Jaguar?

The only Oxford model I've ever seen was the BTCC Vauxhall Vectra and it is awfull!

GTO!!

more haste, less speed.

250 GT SWB, of course.

Get away with nothing here.

Incidentaly, SCM himself told me that the reason there were so many 772s (and 19s and 104s, not to mention the GP cars) with four spoke steering wheels was becasue that was the standard fit. He liked his three=spoke wheel and Merc made him a special, which moved from car to car, the standard steering wheel being put back when Moss moved on to the next car. When Merc stopped racing they asked him would he like anything as a memento of the season and he asked for his steering wheel. They took it off whichever car it was on (which would presumably have been one of the Monza cars - the conversation did not become that detailed) and gave it to him. Thus when 722 and all the other cars went into the museum, they all had four-spoke steering wheels - which is what the model-makers modelled.

IIRC the first detailed models of those Mercs were the Maistos (1/18th?) - or maybe that was simply when I became interested in collectiing accurate models as opposed to Dinkies etc - and all (you could get them badged-up for Moss, Fangio or Kling, as I recall) had four-spoke wheels.

Presumably Brumm and the other 1/43rd-scale modellers just followed suit.

Incidentaly, SCM himself told me that the reason there were so many 772s (and 19s and 104s, not to mention the GP cars) with four spoke steering wheels was becasue that was the standard fit. He liked his three=spoke wheel and Merc made him a special, which moved from car to car, the standard steering wheel being put back when Moss moved on to the next car. When Merc stopped racing they asked him would he like anything as a memento of the season and he asked for his steering wheel. They took it off whichever car it was on (which would presumably have been one of the Monza cars - the conversation did not become that detailed) and gave it to him. Thus when 722 and all the other cars went into the museum, they all had four-spoke steering wheels - which is what the model-makers modelled.

Or perhaps the Targa Florio?

Like Hawthorn, Peter Collins preferred a four spoke wheel, but I assume Moss's wishes would take precedence. I'm not even sure whether Collins regularly had a four spoke wheel at that stage of his career. Would I be correct in thinking that Moss had his three spoke wheel when he shared a sports car with Fangio? Fangio could drive anything.

It would also be interesting to know whether Hawthorn had a four spoke wheel fitted when he drove Moss's 250F.

Sorry about this diversion from the world of models.

Or perhaps the Targa Florio?

Like Hawthorn, Peter Collins preferred a four spoke wheel, but I assume Moss's wishes would take precedence. I'm not even sure whether Collins regularly had a four spoke wheel at that stage of his career. Would I be correct in thinking that Moss had his three spoke wheel when he shared a sports car with Fangio? Fangio could drive anything.

It would also be interesting to know whether Hawthorn had a four spoke wheel fitted when he drove Moss's 250F.

Sorry about this diversion from the world of models.

Mike Hawthorn used a 3 spoke wheel for this event just to confuse matters! I made a 1/43 kit from Jade Miniatures which came with quite a lot of pictures of this car in that year. 1 picture clearly shows Mike at the Crystal Palace race. I was surprised but this must have been the exception.

Or perhaps the Targa Florio?

Sorry about this diversion from the world of models.

Not a diversion at all. Roger, since we are discssuing accuracy in models.

You are also right about the Targa: I am away from home (ski-ing in Whistler, BC) and all me books and off the top of head could not recll which came later, the Monza GP or the Targa. I also recalled Moss saying, in DCN's book, that Monza was his last Mercedes works drive in anger - but of course he's speaking of the 196, not the 300slr. In the Targa he used the same car (004) as the Mille Miglia and the Dundrod TT, so as the Targa was in October and the TT in September presumably it raced in the latter unchanged |(apart from some serious restoration to the bodywork). The way he told me the story (apologies for the name dropping - but if you're going to drop a name,make it a big one) I assumed the conversation about the wheel took place sometime either at or after the Retirement announcement, when Nuebauer tearfully pulled covers over the cars.

I have the MM, Targa and Dundrod 300slrs all in Maisto, as well as the W196 and have modififed the steering wheel to three-spoke on the Dundrod car. Like D-type, the other mods remain on my Do List. I also have the BGP W196, the MM, Le Mans, Dundrod and Targa 300slrs in 1/43rd: the Dundrod, which I built from a SMTS kit has a three-spoke wheel. But the others I think all have four-spoke.

Good question about 19, the Le Mns car. IIRC they drove 003, Fangio's regular car. More research needed...

When Merc stopped racing they asked him would he like anything as a memento of the season and he asked for his steering wheel.

OT I grant you, whereas Jenks was happy to have a piston and rod from 722 when asked the same question.......
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 13 December 2011 - 20:21.

It's interesting that Moss's 3 wins were in the same car. That must be the most battered and repaired 300SLR by a country mile.

Also, in the Mille Miglia it had twin head rests, in the Targa twin spotlights (why?) and at Dundrod it had neither. And if it was the same car, it had an air brake in Sweden. Talk about ringing the changes!

Edited by D-Type, 10 April 2012 - 16:04.

Something to consider is that many model companies are experts at making models, and they ask history boffins for the historical details. The other consideration is editorial policies were pretty slack back in the 1950's and 60's, so looking at books and magazines about Le Mans for instance you would get test day, practice, and then race pictures of cars mixed together in a race report. So I think you should cut some slack, many more journalists, editors, and historians have embedded mistakes into race car lore than those perpetrated by model companies. But yes, Brumm are naughty.

Steve

Edited by SWB, 14 December 2011 - 10:28.

Wrong colours are something that puts me off all the time.

For example the Lamborghini 350GTV by Starlight in silver. Okay, they make it also in the correct green.
Or the white Lamborghini Bravo by Minichamps. I've never seen in any of my Lamborghini books or anywhere else a picture of the real car in white.

Fantasy paint jobs for toymodels are fine. Same counts for old Politoys. Back at the time they didn't really care. I just wish they would stick to the truth with higher priced collectors models.

The colour photo of the GTV in the 1963 edition of Automobile Year shows it in a dark silver grey, the green came later and the restored Bravo may not have been white originally but it is now. That's not say there aren't fantasy models. I've seen a few across my desk where a well documented, one off car that has never been restored is presented by the same maker in the original colour and also in red because it's a Ferrari and all Ferraris are red.

It's worth noting that many makers model musuem cars, particularly the bigger makers, as they are accessible for detailed inspection but are often incorrect. Take the Pink Pig 917 for example. Porsche's imaculate restoration has details such as the drivers' names the wrong way round. Recently Kyosho made the class winning Morgan from Le Mans in 1962. A very nicely made and detailed model, of the restored car.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as a perfect model, there are always compromises and artistsic interpretations.

Didn't know that the 350GTV was originally dark silver. The oldest colour pictures I knew show the car already in not to good conditions.
IMHO should concept cars be presented in the colour the original was first show in public.

in red because it's a Ferrari and all Ferraris are red.

That is hilarious because Ferrari's house colour is yellow!

Concept cars are always difficult as they are often repainted for different events to keep interest alive.

That is hilarious because Ferrari's house colour is yellow!

Doesn't alter the fact that a large proportion of the buying public expect all Ferraris to be red. Model manufacturers naturally enough make models which they believe the general public, not just the purist, will buy. No point in investing in the tooling for a "concept" car and then vastly reducing your sales by being precious over getting the colour "right". Which doesn't mean to say that the right colour shouldn't be included.

so do the errors have value if rare and quickly redone or withdrawn ?
or are there even error collectors

I have heard rare colors are a big value in hot wheels types

so do the errors have value if rare and quickly redone or withdrawn ?
or are there even error collectors

I have heard rare colors are a big value in hot wheels types

Used to be, not sure whether it happens much now. I have heard stories that so many "collectors" were falling over themselves to find Models of Yesteryear errors that the manufacturers deliberately made them.

Edited by RCH, 22 December 2011 - 08:24.

The simple fact is that where cars from years gone by are concerned, we just don't know what the true colours were so we must forgive manufacturers who get it wrong - especially if it's only by a shade or two.

Then again, in the case of the Quartzo 1960 Yeoman Credit Coopers, I can't forgive....

On the question of colour:

Was the FIAT "Mephistopholes" red or black at the time it set the World Land Speed Record?
Was the "Ferrari" AAC 815 red or black when Ascari drove it in the 1940 Mille Miglia?

The AutoAvio was, from everything I've ever seen, a dark red. Black and white photos usually render red as black, though they can be misleading.

Edited by fatbaldbloke, 06 January 2012 - 13:55.

Thanks.
My problem arises as Brumm modelled it in black and in deep red. - Needless to say, I bought a black one!

They modelled "Mephistopholes" as red, which it is now, but I have heard/seen somewhere that it was black when it set the record.

Edited by D-Type, 10 April 2012 - 15:58.

Brumm and Milestone Miniatures did the Fiat Eldridge/Fiat Mephistopheles in black.
I believed the car to be black but have pulled out some books and found a report of the day, it describes "The great red car approaching the starting line at nearly 150m.p.h.

Edited by tbolt, 07 January 2012 - 17:52.

The simple fact is that where cars from years gone by are concerned, we just don't know what the true colours were so we must forgive manufacturers who get it wrong - especially if it's only by a shade or two.

Then again, in the case of the Quartzo 1960 Yeoman Credit Coopers, I can't forgive....

A little late to the party, but:

The Starter 1:43 version of the 1953 LeMans Austin-Healey was produced in one of my favorite colors, a light-to-medium metallic blue.



I discovered from reading and correspondence with a current owner of one of the original cars that the color should be a green of similar shade. I wrote to a fellow collector in France, and he had contacts with the Starter people. Pretty soon all the examples I could find were offered in green.

The original batch were blue, as you say they were persuaded that they should have been green so subsequent ones were green. I understand that the mistake came about due to early colour photos where the cars definately looked blue!

In case anyone is wondering the models were supplied with the numbers as shown on the blue car with additional decals so that the model could represent either car.

Edited by RCH, 07 April 2012 - 22:27.

Regarding 'Mephistopholes' I found this site which says the car was black at the time it set the record and was later painted red and had the tail restyled. It looks as if Brumm have modelled the car as it is now so in this case I think I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Edited by D-Type, 20 April 2012 - 23:09.

After a poster on another thread dismissed an unfamiliar range of models he had never seen as being bound to be out of scale, out of curiosity I decided to measure the wheelbase of those models I could easily find data for (how sad can you get?). .

I found data for 50 of them and the results were: 20 within 1% another 24 within 6% and only five shockers:
Brumm Bugatti Type 59 - 110%
Brumm Mercedes W154 - 89%
Brumm Mercedes W196 (open wheeler) - 117%
Brumm Bentley 4¹/₂ - 91%
John Day Miller - 110%

In fairness to Brumm, the offending models are all early ones and the accuracy (in all respects) has improved as time goes on

Edited by D-Type, 05 October 2013 - 16:30.

I always thought that W.196 looked too big.

I always thought that W.196 looked too big.

)
That's a pity, as needless to say my Moss collection car is a Brumm.

So whose would you suggest? And since we're on the subject of accuracy, nearly all those British GP versions with red numbers outlined in black are wrong (they should be black on white roundels), the Moss car should have a blue tartan seat and of course three-spoke wheel.

1:43rd scale.

Under a tenner ( )

)
That's a pity, as needless to say my Moss collection car is a Brumm.

So whose would you suggest? And since we're on the subject of accuracy, nearly all those British GP versions with red numbers outlined in black are wrong (they should be black on white roundels), the Moss car should have a blue tartan seat and of course three-spoke wheel.

1:43rd scale.

Under a tenner ( )

Hi Malcolm, Spark? Although I wanted to keep a reasonable stock of Spark laying hands on them when I wanted them has always proved tricky. They seem to have made so much which we (I) never get to see there may well be a W196 to suit. There also seems to be enough idiots selling Spark at knockdown prices on Ebay that you could find a bargain... not for under a tenner though!

My apologies if you detect a note of cynicism/frustration.

I'm not certain, but I think both Schuco and Minichamps, being German companies, have modelled the W196 open wheeler at some stage. But how detailed or how accurately?

Hello Rod. Yes - even I recognise that that my skinflint tenner budget can be but a joke these days.

I've looked at the Spark - they do indeed do a Moss model, complete with driver but even it has the wrong steering wheel. In fact, virtually every Moss 1:43rd Merc W196 or 300slr has the wrong (i.e. 4-spoke) steering wheel except (I think) this one: http://www.ebay.co.u...7#ht_541wt_1037. I say I think because I have one, very generously given to me by Tony Letheridge, which has the correct wheel and seat cover but it is currently packed away during the Great Office Rebuild so I cannot check the make.

Incidentally. following up your comment on the Moss thread itself about not going to Goodwood... I found only two serious purveyors of 1:43rds there, JMToys and a German outfit. Stock seemed very limited and I bought only a Porsche 550. And I had gone armed with money and leaving my ridiculous notions of what I would pay behind. I especially wanted some Moss Astons, including the Shelby 1:18, but could find nothing. JM had the Salvadori/ Shelby version (#5) for £50 (about the going rate, if you look a eBay prices then add in postage) but not the Moss car (#4).


He offered to throw in the Porsche if I~ bought the Aston - but that was the nearest I got to a bargain all weekend. Mind you, going to the Revival in search of a bargain (dealers used to use it to offload old or surplus stock 'at knockdown prices') was this year not a good idea. I think Barry had a similar experience.

As someone trying to make a living out of picky anoraks like we (or at least me) I sympathise with your frustration. Trust me, were I a wealthy 'collector' I would have one of every Moss car, at least, that you sell.

Must stop now. Off to buy a lottery ticket...

Edited by Mal9444, 22 September 2012 - 03:52.

As someone trying to make a living out of picky anoraks like we (or at least me) I sympathise with your frustration. Trust me, were I a wealthy 'collector' I would have one of every Moss car, at least, that you sell.

Must stop now. Off to buy a lottery ticket...

Not so much the customers I get frustrated with, most of mine are hand picked and honed to perfection these days, could just do with a few more, make that a lot more! The problem with me is that some people seem to be selling stuff like Spark on ebay at prices that I see no point in matching, just might as well not bother.

I've looked at the Spark - they do indeed do a Moss model, complete with driver but even it has the wrong steering wheel. In fact, virtually every Moss 1:43rd Merc W196 or 300slr has the wrong (i.e. 4-spoke) steering wheel except (I think) this one: http://www.ebay.co.u...7#ht_541wt_1037. I say I think because I have one, very generously given to me by Tony Letheridge, which has the correct wheel and seat cover but it is currently packed away during the Great Office Rebuild so I cannot check the make.

In fact, that lovely little 300slr is by NOREX, of whom I have never heard:



The seats, by the way, are blue, but not patterned. The only 1:43rd scale 300slrs or W196s of which I know with patterned seats are the kit versions. I have built two of the SMTS kit 300s

It's definitely my day for having a beef!

As Modelzone in Croydon were marking everything down I bought an IXO Le Mans Lorraine Dietrich. I got it home and found that instead of the usual cross headed screw it is fixed to the base with what I would describe as a 'triangular Allen screw' which is tightly torqued up. Needless to say I don't have tool to fit and none of my other tools like Allen keys or screwdrivers will fit closely enough to allow me to do a butcher's job. Unless someone at work can lend me a suitable tool, will have to drill it out! Aaaargh!

 

Edited by D-Type, 05 October 2013 - 16:33.

No, don't do that. I've had quite a few models with these triangular screws. Get a fairly thick nail - around 3 mm diameter - and file the point off then file it to the triangular shape to fit the screw. Trust me, it works.

I had the same issue with some recent releases and I found that an old triangular model file with the tip cut away fit like a glove.

Well, I took a square flooring nail and filed it to triangular shape and managed to undo the screw with it. Once I'd done so I realised that what I had thought was a washer was in fact part of the screw so I could have used Malcolm's technique and gripped it with some form of pliers. I thought about a triangular file but couldn't find mine.
But why can't they just use a cross-headed screw like anybody else!

Edited by D-Type, 10 July 2013 - 16:45.

Well, I took a square flooring nail and filed it to triangular shape and managed to undo the screw with it. Once I'd done so I realised that what I had thought was a washer was in fact part of the screw so I could have used Malcolm's technique and gripped it with some form of pliars. I thought abourt a triangular file but couldn't find mine.
But why can't they just use a cross-headed screw like anybody else!

I notice that the wholesale listings for IXO includes an "IXO Screwdriver". Out of stock of course! Will have to get some ordered.

As Modelzone in Croydon were marking everything down I bought an IXO Le Mans Lorraine Dietrich.

Yes, sad to see that yet another model retailer has gone into administration - another business mismanaged by the venture capitalists. It will be interesting to see whether David Mordecai will succeed in buying it back.

Yes, sad to see that yet another model retailer has gone into administration - another business mismanaged by the venture capitalists. It will be interesting to see whether David Mordecai will succeed in buying it back.

See parallel discussion on the "Model collectors are not a dying breed!" thread: http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6342044

I don't know if this is an inaccurate model or not.

At Goodwood I bought a model that claims to be Nuvolari's 1947 Mille Miglia Cisitalia like this one . The model clearly has a two spotlights mounted on the nose. But the few photos from the race on the 'net, such as this photo show no extra lights on the nose but it does have two holes where the bracket would be. Does anyone know the background? Were the lights removed before the race? Did they fall off during the race? The manufacturer must have based his model on something, but not necessarily the right car. Perhaps he has modelled another car or the same car, but not in the Mille Miglia?

Anyone know (or where to find the answer)?

Edited by D-Type, 09 November 2013 - 22:52.

I don't know if this is an inaccurate model or not.

At Goodwood I bought a model that claims to be Nuvolari's 1947 Mille Miglia Cisitalia like this one . The model clearly has a two spotlights mounted on the nose. But the few photos from the race on the 'net, such as this photo show no extra lights on the nose but it does have two holes where the bracket would be. Does anyone know the background? Were the lights removed before the race? Did they fall off during the race? The manufacturer must ahce based his model on something, but not necessarily the right car. Perhaps he has modelled another car or the same car, but not in the Mille Miglia?

Anyone know (or where to find the answer)?

Purely a guess Duncan but Nuvolari took over 16 hours to complete the route. I can't find a starting time but I guess it was still dark. The extra lamps were presumably removed at the first halt in daylight.

I emphasise that I am in no way criticizing the seller of this model but I see that a well-respecter purveyor of model racing cars is advertising what appears to be a very nice 43rd scale model of the 1960 Scarab F.1 car - a particular favourite of mine.

On closer inspection, however, the car appears not to be painted in a metallic blue - although that may be a trick of the light when it was photographed - but what staggers me is that the manufacturer has the exhaust pipe on the WRONG side of the car (or if there is one on the other side as well then the same thing applies - it only had one exhaust).

The internet carries dozens and dozens of images of the real car and as far as I can see, not a single one of them shows a left side exhaust pipe.

It makes me wonder if the modeller really does enough research at all before commencing the new model.

Such a pity because it really does look like a very nice little model indeed.

I don't know if this is an inaccurate model or not.

At Goodwood I bought a model that claims to be Nuvolari's 1947 Mille Miglia Cisitalia like this one . The model clearly has a two spotlights mounted on the nose. But the few photos from the race on the 'net, such as this photo show no extra lights on the nose but it does have two holes where the bracket would be. Does anyone know the background? Were the lights removed before the race? Did they fall off during the race? The manufacturer must ahce based his model on something, but not necessarily the right car. Perhaps he has modelled another car or the same car, but not in the Mille Miglia?

Anyone know (or where to find the answer)?

Nuvolari's start time was 1:56am.

There are several photographs in Cisitalia by Balestra and De Agostini. At Rome and Civita Castellano Nuvolari has the extra lights, on the Futa and Raticosta passes he doesn't. Photographs of other Cisitalias in Mille Miglia by Orsini (generally taken before the race, I think) show some with the lights, some with holes.

Thanks Roger - at least it appears that this model is kosher.

Has anybody seen a model of the cycle winged Ferrari 166 spyder he drove in 1948?