Henry Segrave
#1
Posted 21 February 2012 - 00:16
TC
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#2
Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:22
#3
Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:40
Would a child born in the US at that time automatically be a US citizen, or merely have the right to claim US citizenship?
#4
Posted 21 February 2012 - 08:21
#5
Posted 21 February 2012 - 09:38
Presumably Segrave and Williams would have also qualified for, respectively, American and French - and thus possibly dual - citizenship, but chose not to do so.
Edited by Vitesse2, 21 February 2012 - 09:40.
#6
Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:23
In Grand Prix Saboteurs Joe Saward says that Williams's birth was registered at the town hall in Montrouge, so it would be interesting to know whether he was officially a British citizen.
#7
Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:24
Green Bugatti.Going OT already, I've long been puzzled as to why "Williams" was always regarded as British. English father, French mother, born in France.
#8
Posted 21 February 2012 - 12:30
I don't think the place of registration is relevant, Tim, although obtaining a bona fide British certificate no doubt helped. My late mother was born in Canada of British parents and obtained a British passport despite only having a Canadian birth certificate. Admittedly that was under the post-1914 regulations, but they were far more complicated and took into account another 140 or so years of Empire, which must have theoretically vastly increased the number of children of British fathers eligible for citizenship.The actress Audrey Hepburn is often erroneously added to lists of famous Belgians because she happened to be born there. There's a copy of her birth certificate viewable on line which shows that her birth was registered at the British Consulate in Brussels, and that she was never anything other than British. As Segrave's father originally went to Baltimore as a British consular official (although he had moved into the real estate business at the time of Segrave's birth) I think it likely that his birth also would have been registered in this way.
In Grand Prix Saboteurs Joe Saward says that Williams's birth was registered at the town hall in Montrouge, so it would be interesting to know whether he was officially a British citizen.
Anyway, here's the 1772 Act: http://www.uniset.ca/naty/BNA1772.htm
#9
Posted 21 February 2012 - 15:25
#10
Posted 21 February 2012 - 16:05
#11
Posted 21 February 2012 - 16:07
A photo or two of the old place would be fascinating.... a large house and estate called Belle Isle, which Charles Segrave had taken over on long lease from the owner Lord Avonmore.
Belle Isle, half a mile from the townlet of Portumna, stands on Lough Derg, where the waters of the Shannon join it on their way down through Limerick to the Atlantic, in countryside rich in past history and legend, but in 1906 quiet and dreamy. Here was the Emerald Isle personified, with broad fields, heather-clad hills, splendid trees, and green, green grass everywhere, flourishing in the mild, moist air of Ireland.
Edit: confirming what Richard posted above.
Edited by Tim Murray, 21 February 2012 - 16:09.
#13
Posted 21 February 2012 - 16:26
#14
Posted 21 February 2012 - 18:04
My understanding is the same as Tim's, but TC raises an interesting point
Would a child born in the US at that time automatically be a US citizen, or merely have the right to claim US citizenship?
Yes, that goes to the heart of my question. I have no doubt of Segrave's "Britishness," but I wonder if legally, at that time in the US, his birth there of an American mother automatically made him a citizen or just gave his parents that option?
I wonder who would know that?
TC
#15
Posted 21 February 2012 - 18:44
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
There are exclusions - children of foreign diplomats and of enemy aliens in time of war - but presumably only really an issue if and when you applied for a passport. So it would appear that Segrave actually held dual citizenship. Whether he cared is another question!
Edited by Vitesse2, 21 February 2012 - 18:46.
#16
Posted 22 February 2012 - 10:31
Sad coincidence: the course on Windermere where Segrave crashed Miss England II started near Belle Isle. He was rescued from the wreck and taken to a house overlooking the lake, where he later died, despite the efforts of his doctors. The house was called Belle Grange.
There is a rather nice house on Belle Island - was this where Segrave was taken?
#17
Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:56
No, Belle Grange is an isolated house on the western shore of the lake at High Wray, ENE of Hawkshead. Postal address is Belle Grange, High Wray, Ambleside, Cumbria LA22 0JH.There is a rather nice house on Belle Island - was this where Segrave was taken?
You do have to wonder why he wasn't taken to either Bowness or Ambleside though.
#18
Posted 22 February 2012 - 17:58
It seems to be automatic - as defined in the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment (1868):
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
There are exclusions - children of foreign diplomats and of enemy aliens in time of war - but presumably only really an issue if and when you applied for a passport. So it would appear that Segrave actually held dual citizenship. Whether he cared is another question!
Yes, but as Tim Murray posted, "As Segrave's father originally went to Baltimore as a British consular official (although he had moved into the real estate business at the time of Segrave's birth) I think it likely that his birth also would have been registered in this way," so I wonder if the prior service of Segrave's father as a consular official counted as an exclusion?
Unless there's an immigration or government expert viewing, we may have gone as far as we can here. TC
#19
Posted 22 February 2012 - 20:48
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#20
Posted 23 February 2012 - 14:21
#21
Posted 23 February 2012 - 15:44
Well, they did have Gar Wood.At the time, the land and water speed records had a far higher profile than today. I would speculate that the Americans would have wanted to claim Segraves records for America if they could. The fact that they did not do so suggests that they felt they could not claim Segrave was American.
Campbell and Day suggest that "his work in promoting good feelings for us in America ... very charm and spontaneity, added to the breath-taking brilliance of his achievements, made him seem to Americans, Germans, French and Italians alike the beau-ideal of the dashing yet modest young English gentleman adventurer who all down the centuries has continued to make world history - as a matter of course and not a matter of intent."
They don't write books like that any more
Now, if you'll excuse me, I shall go and play Flanders & Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice"