BRM Volume 4

I think we have heard enough of Louis Stanley's character elsewhere to know that Conspiracy of Secrets is substantially accurate in that respect, even if some of the specific allegations cannot be proved. However, I suggest people read Roy Jenkins' biography of Asquith before condemning his character on the basis of this book.

I think I will do just that! However, I really didn't feel too negative towards Asquith when I finished the book. I think history has shown that a good peacetime leader is seldom a good wartime leader and vv...

I think I will do just that! However, I really didn't feel too negative towards Asquith when I finished the book. I think history has shown that a good peacetime leader is seldom a good wartime leader and vv...

Being a mean so-and-so, I waited till "Conspiracy of Secrets" dropped below a tenner for the Kindle edition and have now ploughed through it. Not a great piece of literature in terms of style, proof-reading and organisation, but the content is pretty shocking, even allowing for the inevitably one-sided voewpoint.

Evern so and even so .. As with a wartime leader, I can't help thinking that it was a case of 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'. For all his (many) faults and bluster, I think only LTS could have forced through the reappraisal of medical facilities at Grands Prix in the 1960s and the delivery of his GP Medical Unit (big white elephant though it may have been - but at least it was a thought-provoking one). For that, I can forgive him a lot of things - and not just becuase of the photo of a very teenage me that appears in one of his Grand Prix annuals.

Now, where's BRM Volume 4?

Edited by Odseybod, 11 April 2012 - 08:43.

Well having just read Conspiracy of Secrets it confirmed many of my suspicions about the public facade that Stanley portrayed. As a cynical and long-term amateur genealogist, nothing surprises me about anyone - I've dug up a few "interesting" family secrets from the not too distant past. Even so, this book definitely has a "wow" factor!

I suppose one could forgive Louis Stanley for the joke which Stanley-BRM was / became - at least one could say he tried to run an F1 team even if he was totally misguided and incompetent - but on the face of it, it appeared to do little harm to anyone, and provided me and my then teenage friends with some light relief in the 1970s!

One could almost forgive him for covering up his past - if it was to protect the reputations of members of his family, not that I think any child needs to justify the actions of its parents before it was born, no matter who they are! I could not, however, forgive him for the way he consistently manipulated everyone around him, stripped BRM of their reputation (and money...), nor for the way treated his stepchildren or his wife. It saddens me that someone who could have been remembered for a lot of good work, e.g. on motor racing safety, and for his many great gestures of assistance in times of tragedy in the sport, could come to treat his dying wife and family in such a manner. What spite!
We all have this one life which we are born into, for better or worse, with the opportunity to do good or evil by other people. No matter that Bobbie Neate understandably highlights his darker side; it wouldn't have taken much on his part to change his family's attitude towards him. I'm sure if his actions at the end of Jean Stanley's life had been different the chances are the book would never have been written.

Now that Volume 4 CAN be written, I shall await it eagerly!

Edited by Nick Planas, 28 April 2012 - 21:41.

Looking forward to V4 as I am, with all the H16 and V12 years to be covered, I believe a Lotus 43 is going to be running at the FoS this year.

And although this is not strictly nostalgia, it reminds me of how I read "It Was Fun!" by Tony Rudd, always muttering as I approach the genesis of the H16 'no Tony, go for the V12!'........
another 16

Paul M

Looking forward to V4 as I am, with all the H16 and V12 years to be covered, I believe a Lotus 43 is going to be running at the FoS this year.

And although this is not strictly nostalgia, it reminds me of how I read "It Was Fun!" by Tony Rudd, always muttering as I approach the genesis of the H16 'no Tony, go for the V12!'........
another 16

Paul M

Any hints on when Volume 4 will be available? Months or still years away?

cheers

I put this 1/32 scake slot car together for an upcoming proxy race series this fall. It has a wire and brass chassis, an FF030 motor and a modified SCX body with shortened nose intended to resemble the BRMP83 that Jackie Stewart drove at the 1966 Mexican GP (qualified 10th and retired after 26 laps with mechanical problems). When Volume 4 is published, I'll see just how many mistakes I made !

And, when Mr. Nye's book does appear, I'll have some detailed references and inspiration for my next BRM scratch building project.. a 1968 P126. (Unless that will be in Volume 5 of course!).






Mark

I put this 1/32 scake slot car together for an upcoming proxy race series this fall. It has a wire and brass chassis, an FF030 motor and a modified SCX body with shortened nose intended to resemble the BRMP83 that Jackie Stewart drove at the 1966 Mexican GP (qualified 10th and retired after 26 laps with mechanical problems). When Volume 4 is published, I'll see just how many mistakes I made !

And, when Mr. Nye's book does appear, I'll have some detailed references and inspiration for my next BRM scratch building project.. a 1968 P126. (Unless that will be in Volume 5 of course!).






Mark

Shouldn't it be number 4?

Yes, it should be #4 and it should have Stewart's name on the side. And about 5 other things at least.

Meanwhile, to address the thread title, any hints? Please?

Approx 80 per cent there...sorry. Some things are very difficult to achieve...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 05 September 2012 - 18:49.

Approx 80 per cent there...sorry. Some things are very difficult to achieve...

DCN

There is a saying in project management that the first 80% of a project takes 80% of the time and the last 20% takes the other 80%.

There is a saying in project management that the first 80% of a project takes 80% of the time and the last 20% takes the other 80%.

And I think the Pareto principle states that 20% of a project gives 80% of the bother! (sorry Doug)

Yeeeeeesssss...

What is certainly true is that the older one gets, the more one cares, and the more one cares, the less confident one becomes. As Graham Hill occasionally observed "Yeah - it's a bugger, innit?".

Which is also undeniably true; but not very helpful.

DCN

Yeeeeeesssss...

What is certainly true is that the older one gets, the more one cares, and the more one cares, the less confident one becomes. As Graham Hill occasionally observed "Yeah - it's a bugger, innit?".

Which is also undeniably true; but not very helpful.

DCN

Doug, your toils have been, are, and will be appreciated.

If research could be done as piecework, many would be happy to pull an oar.

I've just purchased vol 2, it arrived on Monday as it happens. What a beautiful book A4 size 368 pages on high quality art paper weighing close to 2 kilogrammes, it felt so heavy I had to try it on the scales. Absolutely packed with photos I had never seen before. The sort of book you thought they did not make anymore a complete joy to own.
It will take me as long to read it as it does Doug to write them. Strongly recommended.

They are a fantastic chronicle of the BRM story.
I treasure my 3 and am sure I will the 4th.
Thanks, many times Doug.

One day, I hope to be rich enough to buy these books.

One day, I hope to be rich enough to buy these books.

+1

+1

Thrice

How was it all paid for at BRM?

Building and running racing cars both capital and revenue wise is and was vastly expensive.
Set up machinery, premises - is all huge, then all those members of staff were paid plus all the transport accomodation etc costs at GPs.

So where did the money come from ? No BCE TV club money, no advertising on the car, prize money would be just a token gesture and 90% of the field got nothing anyway. Circuit owners start money ? Can't believe that was in any way significant.
Oil companies, well maybe they made a contribution to drivers pay but no more than that ?
Even back in the 50s & 60s it took very big bucks to manufacture and race your own cars.
BRM was a substantial organisation ( maybe that's not quite always the right word) Just the weekly wages materials and expenses would have been a great deal of money with apparently close to no income and no product on sale.
So how was it done? Where did it come from and how much? Was it all really bankrolled by Rubery Owen and what of the other teams at the time without a big industrial parent.
Seems to me top level motor sport would have been if anything more difficult to fund in the 50s & 60s than F1 today.

Edited by RTH, 06 September 2012 - 12:28.

How was it all paid for at BRM?

Building and running racing cars both capital and revenue wise is and was vastly expensive.
Set up machinery, premises - is all huge, then all those members of staff were paid plus all the transport accomodation etc costs at GPs.

So where did the money come from ? No BCE TV club money, no advertising on the car, prize money would be just a token gesture and 90% of the field got nothing anyway. Circuit owners start money ? Can't believe that was in any way significant.
Oil companies, well maybe they made a contribution to drivers pay but no more than that ?
Even back in the 50s & 60s it took very big bucks to manufacture and race your own cars.
BRM was a substantial organisation ( maybe that's not quite always the right word) Just the weekly wages materials and expenses would have been a great deal of money with apparently close to no income and no product on sale.
So how was it done? Where did it come from and how much?

Sir Alfred Owen was a very patient man.

Re the cost of Doug's books - you don't have to buy the diamond-encrusted editions signed in the author's blood. The run-of-the-mill ones are very reasonable for the amount of quality content. My daughter bought me the first three as birthday/Xmas pressies - I hope the receiver of her kidney is well and thriving.

One day, I hope to be rich enough to buy these books.

Looking on ABE Books, Vo1 1 & Vol 2 are £ 57.04 each with free shippping from the Book Depository. There books are worth the original listed price if you want the complete BRM story.

http://www.abebooks....u...ts=t&tn=BRM

On a personal note, I own the first 3 vol, as much as I want Vol 4, I would like Doug to finish the Phil Hill book before Vol 4. This is the book I am most eagerly awaiting.

Yeeeeeesssss...

What is certainly true is that the older one gets, the more one cares, and the more one cares, the less confident one becomes. As Graham Hill occasionally observed "Yeah - it's a bugger, innit?".

Which is also undeniably true; but not very helpful.

DCN

The effort and craft you put into these books is self evident to the reader Doug, as well as the research and technical details each one is a cracking read! My copy of Vol 1 is becoming decidedly worn so often is it pulled off the shelf and dipped into. We are only getting tetchy because we can't wait to get out grubby mitts on Vol 4.

Looking on ABE Books, Vo1 1 & Vol 2 are £ 57.04 each with free shippping from the Book Depository. There books are worth the original listed price if you want the complete BRM story.

http://www.abebooks....u...ts=t&tn=BRM

On Amazon UK at the moment you can get:

Vol 1 New - £39.98
Vol 2 New - £36.98
Vol 3 New - £47.57

http://www.amazon.co...u...p;x=18&y=12

Edited by LittleChris, 06 September 2012 - 19:44.

How was it all paid for at BRM?

Building and running racing cars both capital and revenue wise is and was vastly expensive.
Set up machinery, premises - is all huge, then all those members of staff were paid plus all the transport accomodation etc costs at GPs.

So where did the money come from ? No BCE TV club money, no advertising on the car, prize money would be just a token gesture and 90% of the field got nothing anyway. Circuit owners start money ? Can't believe that was in any way significant.
Oil companies, well maybe they made a contribution to drivers pay but no more than that ?
Even back in the 50s & 60s it took very big bucks to manufacture and race your own cars.
BRM was a substantial organisation ( maybe that's not quite always the right word) Just the weekly wages materials and expenses would have been a great deal of money with apparently close to no income and no product on sale.
So how was it done? Where did it come from and how much? Was it all really bankrolled by Rubery Owen and what of the other teams at the time without a big industrial parent.
Seems to me top level motor sport would have been if anything more difficult to fund in the 50s & 60s than F1 today.

A very good question. We know of the ultimatum given in 1961 regarding 62 results. We know of the generally good performance of BRM through the 1.5L formula; performance which in all probability engendered considerable support for subsequent efforts. The H16 promised much, but delivered little. The V12 was conceived as a customer engine. Then after 2yrs of shambolic management, LTS convinced Yardley to foot the bill. Then on their nickle decided to enter as many cars as possible, to maximize sponsor exposure, rather than focusing on efficient use of resources to develop the cars. Then it all fell apart.... Even while all of this was going on, BRM took on customer commissions and tried to develop a market for their products, all with the intent of generating profits to plow back into the company.

I am saving my pennies for V-4.

Best,

Ross

I am saving my pennies for V-4.

Best,

Ross

Hopefully it will be arriving soon?

Blimey!

But more to the point, take a look at this:

http://www.waterston...ecrets/8408783/

It's not altogether an easy read, for all manner of reasons, but my word it's extraordinary...

DCN

What an extraordinary and repulsive tale, the research on the balance of probabilities IMHO made the hypothesis of the relationship between Louis T Stanley and HH Asquith seem quite convincing, if only BN had succeeded to obtain a tissue sample for DNA testing we might have had the scientific clincher, on the other hand further documents will be released into the public domain in the not too distant future which may shed further light on the veracity of the hypothesis.

Any hints on when Volume 4 will be available? Months or still years away?

cheers

Just thought this might be worth asking again to see if there is an news/rumours regarding the final installment of this great series?

cheers

Still on it. It will happen. Pay rate's not great...

DCN

Still on it. It will happen. Pay rate's not great...

DCN

I'd hoped that a ridiculous Land Rover bill might provide the necessary incentive!

A year ago when reading "A Conspiracy of Secrets" I remarked here at my disapproval of Asquith's affair with Ms. Stanley. I was pleased to receive another perspective from Roger Clark and DCN regarding Asquith, and now, a year on I have been reading William Manchester's biographical opus on Winston Churchill. In setting the period context of Churchill's parents, birth, and early years, Mr. Manchester provides an excellent overview of the social dynamics and mores of the late Victorian and Edwardian eras among the British upper classes (and indeed the royals as well).

Given this, it would seem that Asquith's relationship with Venetia Stanley was quite within the accepted actions of the period.

Given this, it would seem that Asquith's relationship with Venetia Stanley was quite within the accepted actions of the period.

So long as it was kept from the public perhaps, norm it might have been, but it appears to me to have only been accepted within limited circles, why else the secrecy ?

Secrecy was paramount within the upper classes. Absolutely nothing that would cause embarassment to the various parties involved was permitted. If there was a breach of the "code" then social exclusion from the class was immediate. For example, Churchill's uncle was having a liasion with a lady who fell in love and announced her intention to marry his uncle. Uncle, lady, ladies spouse, Churchill's father and mother were excluded from the social scene by the Prince of Wales, who was a peripheral party to the episode. Winston's family was shuffled to Ireland for a few years prior being alllowed to rejoin the upper class social set.

As sitting PM, Asquith and Stanley would have avoided any scandal at all costs.

Edited by Dennis Hockenbury, 27 March 2013 - 22:03.

Quite right, but - as Lloyd George so energetically demonstrated - sometimes a man just feels driven to do what a man's got to do...and an extensive supply of compliant crumpet attended to their needs.

Wahay?

Secrecy was paramount within the upper classes. Absolutely nothing that would cause embarassment to the various parties involved was permitted. If there was a breach of the "code" then social exclusion from the class was immediate. For example, Churchill's uncle was having a liasion with a lady who fell in love and announced her intention to marry his uncle. Uncle, lady, ladies spouse, Churchill's father and mother were excluded from the social scene by the Prince of Wales, who was a peripheral party to the episode. Winston's family was shuffled to Ireland for a few years prior being alllowed to rejoin the upper class social set.

As sitting PM, Asquith and Stanley would have avoided any scandal at all costs.

From my personal experience it was not just the upper classes who felt that any illegitimate births should be kept from public knowledge. My Mother was born to my Grandmother in the early 1920's out of wedlock. I knew my Grandmother all my life until her death as an Aunt. I knew the man who was actually my Grandmother's father as my Grandfather. He was, of course, my Great Grandfather. He could be considered, I think, as a middle class gentleman at that time.

All this was revealed, shamefully I am told, to my Father when he asked the man he believd to be his future wife's Father for his daughter's hand in marriage. My father was not at all concerned and the wedding went ahead. But he was asked to keep the secret.
My father never mentioned this to us at all. Both my Mother and Father passed away and nothing was said. This family secret came to light many years later upon my "Aunt's" death. She had prepared a letter for my brother and I wherein she revealed the truth. This revelation explained her extraordinary closeness to my brother and I and our children. After all we were her Grandchildren and our offspring her GreatGrandchildren. How many times mst her heart have ached at not being able to tell us so? I have absolutely no idea who my maternal Grandfather wase seems to have simply walked away.

These were obviously very different times to those we have lived.

Still on it. It will happen. Pay rate's not great...

DCN

Tis surely a labour of love Doug ? I think in the foreword of Vol 1 you mention that you've been working on 'the BRM book' since the late seventies? I cannot imagine how after the best part of 4 decade's you reach a point where you hit full stop for the last time and think to yourself that's it finished. There's a number of waiting to read the result when you do!

That is very generous of you. As my positively saintly publisher, John Blunsden, will confirm, I work on books at a painfully slow rate...perforce.

DCN

Secrecy was paramount within the upper classes. Absolutely nothing that would cause embarassment to the various parties involved was permitted. If there was a breach of the "code" then social exclusion from the class was immediate. For example, Churchill's uncle was having a liasion with a lady who fell in love and announced her intention to marry his uncle. Uncle, lady, ladies spouse, Churchill's father and mother were excluded from the social scene by the Prince of Wales, who was a peripheral party to the episode. Winston's family was shuffled to Ireland for a few years prior being alllowed to rejoin the upper class social set.

As sitting PM, Asquith and Stanley would have avoided any scandal at all costs.

When secrecy is paranount with regarads to personal relationships it usually a sign that there is something at best hippocritical or at worst wrong, very wrong going on to a preferred state of affairs.

When elected officials lie to their electorate about their personal relationships they deserve absolutely zero respect IMHO.

Would you elect a 50 year old to the House of Commons who was having an affair with his daughters best friend ?

Italy and some others in this country might but I certainly would not.

That is very generous of you. As my positively saintly publisher, John Blunsden, will confirm, I work on books at a painfully slow rate...perforce.

DCN

Is this a case of "You can have it right; or you can have it now; but you can't have it right now"

I would indeed like to say so, but no guarantees...sadly.

DCN

I would indeed like to say so, but no guarantees...sadly.

DCN

I am sure our faith will be richley rewarded with your best efforts, is Vol 4 really going to be the end of the BRM Saga ?

I am sure our faith will be richley rewarded with your best efforts, is Vol 4 really going to be the end of the BRM Saga ?

The end of my version of it, for sure.

The cars will endure, and enthusiastic owners will continue the story. I also suspect we might see a few more built, inevitably.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 30 March 2013 - 08:37.

Will bumping this topic to the forefront help spur you on Doug?
Previous posts would suggest an eager readership dangling in the wind!
Add another name to the "have Vol 1, 2, and 3, can't wait to see 4" camp.
Was fortunate to be able to see/hear/feel those thunderous marvels of the Can Am series in their prime, living 4 hr from Mosport and Watkins Glen, 3 hr from St Jovite. Heady days for a young fan with an urge towards motorsports.

Paul Hill
Morrisburg, Ontario
Canada

The end of my version of it, for sure.

The cars will endure, and enthusiastic owners will continue the story. I also suspect we might see a few more built, inevitably.

DCN

 

Intriguing point here that I had missed on first reading.  Will you be covering the "few more built" that already exist Doug? 

Happy new year..... please Doug make it a happy new year ☺

Thank you to everyone who has expressed both support and patience here. I once promised myself I would finish the saga before I am 70.

 

When I started it with dear old Tony Rudd I was - I believe - about half that...

 

DCN 

Edited by Doug Nye, 02 January 2015 - 12:52.

Thanks Doug. Have a great 2015.

I was wondering if enough time has passed for any more news about the book?!

 

Geoff

No.  It has not.   

 

DCN

Yeeeeeesssss...

What is certainly true is that the older one gets, the more one cares, and the more one cares, the less confident one becomes. As Graham Hill occasionally observed "Yeah - it's a bugger, innit?".

Which is also undeniably true; but not very helpful.

DCN

What a refreshing change "innit" contributing to  the context.