BBC Formula 1's greatest drivers
#101
Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:22
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#102
Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:43
It's a joke, isn't it? What a very inaccurate and biased statement. As a matter of fact, Prost outscored Senna in both seasons. In 1989 Prost won championship by huge margin (and he drove only 15 gp, compared to senna 16). 1988 was the first and only year that the championship winner had not scored the most points overall (counting all 16 races).
#103
Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:49
Don't forget 1964 - Hill scored 41 points 'gross', one more than Surtees.1988 was the first and only year that the championship winner had not scored the most points overall (counting all 16 races).
#104
Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:55
You are rightDon't forget 1964 - Hill scored 41 points 'gross', one more than Surtees.
#105
Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:13
Prost is #5:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19874880
and when one reads this sort of thing in his profile:
I think it's becoming fairly obvious who's going to be #1.
I'd expect something a good deal more independent from the BBC, I wonder if this whole exercise is what is known in the industry as 'an advanced media deliverable' = 'hype vehicle' ahead of a screening of 'Senna' the documentary in the near future ?
Edited by arttidesco, 09 October 2012 - 13:14.
#106
Posted 09 October 2012 - 13:28
From BBC page: "...Senna was unquestionably the better driver during their years at McLaren...".
A common misconception with those two, but as most of us know, "faster" isn't the same thing as "better", just as a fast driver isn't necessarily great, and a great driver may not be the fastest, but popular polls on this kind almost always ignore those considerations. Over a single lap, we'd probably all put our money on Senna, but over a season or even a single race with things like track conditions, fuel load, tyre life, passing without crashing etc to be taken into consideration, the cleverer or more complete driver would be the one to back, not necessarily the fastest. I suppose it all depends on how you want to define "better", but even limiting ourselves to their McLaren era, Alain P would get my vote every time.
#107
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:04
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20124557
Anyone putting their money on Fangio?
I thought not.
#108
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:45
Only two to go now:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20124557
Anyone putting their money on Fangio?
Depends on whether or not the BBC can handle the wrath of TNF for getting it wrong.
My money is on Fangio after all the mess the bbc has found itself in of late there is always the chance they will get something right even if only by accident.
Edited by arttidesco, 30 October 2012 - 12:46.
#109
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:45
No analysis of Clark's style (apart from saying he was "smooth" - well, no sh*t, Sherlock!), strengths or weaknesses.
Not even a mention of his drive at Monza in 68 (assisted by Hill's retirement) which was nothing short of phenomenal (even in a Lotus 49).
Just a few anecdotes and focus on his death. And even that fails to mention the likeliest cause of the crash.
Remind me why we have a licence fee again? Is BBC F1 "journalism" simply a job-creation programme for the irredeemably stupid? Is it asking too much for someone with a working knowledge of the sport and its history to be given the job of Chief F1 Writer in place of the village idiot who currently holds it?
And why am I even getting angry about this idiotic, childish "poll" which proves nothing and furthers our knowledge not one jot?
#110
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:48
And why am I even getting angry about this idiotic, childish "poll" which proves nothing and furthers our knowledge not one jot?
Keep calm and carry on
#111
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:52
Depends on whether or not the BBC can handle the wrath of TNF for getting it wrong.
I think that particular horse has already bolted...
My money is on Fangio after all the mess the bbc has found itself in of late there is always the chance they will get something right even if only by accident.
Well, there is a theory that an infinite number of monkeys, given an infinite amount of time would eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare.
Problem is, the BBC is a finite number of monkeys...
Edited by GrumpyOldMan, 30 October 2012 - 12:53.
#112
Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:54
...
Well, there is a theory that an infinite number of monkeys, given an infinite amount of time would eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare.
...
That was a very prevalent theory some years ago. Unfortunately the internet has proven otherwise.....
#113
Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:08
#114
Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:41
It took about six billion monkeys about three million years to come up with Shakespeare.That was a very prevalent theory some years ago. Unfortunately the internet has proven otherwise.....
It took about three monkeys ten minutes to put Senna above Clark.
#115
Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:51
It took about six billion monkeys about three million years to come up with Shakespeare.
That's very disrespectful to the inhabitants of the West Midlands.
#116
Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:54
That'd be the happily named surveymonkeyIt took about three monkeys ten minutes to put Senna above Clark.
Edited by Allan Lupton, 30 October 2012 - 14:54.
#117
Posted 30 October 2012 - 14:57
That's very disrespectful to the inhabitants of the West Midlands.
That's right. Downright obusive even! - 2 million years would be nearer mark.
#118
Posted 30 October 2012 - 15:10
I dunno, the inhabitants of the West Midlands did come up with Shakespeare.That's very disrespectful to the inhabitants of the West Midlands.
France came up with Jacques Derrida.
#119
Posted 30 October 2012 - 16:28
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#120
Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:28
I dunno, the inhabitants of the West Midlands did come up with Shakespeare.
On the other hand, they also gave us Jasper Carrott. I'd say that goes quite a long way towards evening the score.
#121
Posted 30 October 2012 - 19:37
It took about six billion monkeys about three million years to come up with Shakespeare.
It took about three monkeys ten minutes to put Senna above Clark.
#122
Posted 30 October 2012 - 20:25
Great post, Malcolm.
How did Fangio rate Moss? Did his opinion through his post retirement years change as other legends came and went on the scene? Or was he ever even asked who he rated? He lived a good 30+ years past his retirement from GP's so he must have been asked at some point...
My apologies: I've been away, and had forgotten to tick the option 'track this topic' so have only just seen your very kind remark and your pertinent question.
In his forward to (I think it is) My Cars, My Career (but it might be the Edwards biography - all my books are still packed away during the Great Office Rebuild ordered by Mrs M) Fangio says of Moss (IIRC - I think I have it right) 'all of my rivals, you were the one I feared and respected most'.
I do not know directly what else Fangio might have said of Moss but I believe it is well asccepted that he regarded him as someone very special. There was a Grand Prix (I can't remember exactly which) where Moss led all the way despite Fangio's best efforts only to suffer mechanical failure a couple of laps from the end, letting Fangio through to win. When Moss went up to congratulate him at the end of the race, Fangio handed Moss the wreath and said 'you were the moral victor'.
#123
Posted 30 October 2012 - 20:49
1954 Gran Premio d'Italia... There was a Grand Prix (I can't remember exactly which) where Moss led all the way despite Fangio's best efforts only to suffer mechanical failure a couple of laps from the end, letting Fangio through to win. When Moss went up to congratulate him at the end of the race, Fangio handed Moss the wreath and said 'you were the moral victor'.
#124
Posted 30 October 2012 - 21:02
Yes it is the forward to My Cars, My Career.My apologies: I've been away, and had forgotten to tick the option 'track this topic' so have only just seen your very kind remark and your pertinent question.
In his forward to (I think it is) My Cars, My Career (but it might be the Edwards biography - all my books are still packed away during the Great Office Rebuild ordered by Mrs M) Fangio says of Moss (IIRC - I think I have it right) 'all of my rivals, you were the one I feared and respected most'.
I do not know directly what else Fangio might have said of Moss but I believe it is well asccepted that he regarded him as someone very special. There was a Grand Prix (I can't remember exactly which) where Moss led all the way despite Fangio's best efforts only to suffer mechanical failure a couple of laps from the end, letting Fangio through to win. When Moss went up to congratulate him at the end of the race, Fangio handed Moss the wreath and said 'you were the moral victor'.
Amongst other things, JMF writes:
"Many times I am asked who I considered the most talented racing drivers of my time and I always think of you and Ascari - two people with the same kind of temperament . But whilst Alberto gave much importance to qualifying, reaching the [first] corner and and taking the lead, so that he was always way ahead of the other, you did not have such a rigid approach, but became a fighter who knew how to take the lead, even when all seemed lost."
and he concludesthe forward by saying
"~ You never won the Championship, but it is not without reason that they call you 'The Champoin without a crown' "
I am certain the "moral victor" incident was at Monza in 1954. Stirling alludes to it in My Cars my Career saying no more than "Fangio - as the great sportsman he was - greeted me as the moral victor, and Pirelli even paid me a winner's bonus". Robert edwards writes"~ Fangio, who won the Italian race, gave Stirling the moral victory and so din most of the spectators." In All My Races, the 'moral victory' gets no mention but he (or Alan henry) devotes a paragraph to the Pirelli bonus saying they contacted him after the race to tell him they were paying the bonus. Gerald Donaldson in Fangio The Life Behind the Legend writes "Following the podium ceremonies, the victor sought out the gallant Moss and embraced him warmly. Though somewhat embarassed at the Latin show of affection, Moss was thrilled when Fangio told him he was the moral victor and that he had clearly arrived."
Edited by D-Type, 30 October 2012 - 21:03.
#125
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:29
Lists are bollocks really - God knows why we even read them..
#126
Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:49
#127
Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:19
Edited by Simon Hadfield, 31 October 2012 - 12:20.
#128
Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:49
It is an interesting side effect of modern regulations that we now have the curious situation that the very best in our field now do less than they have ever done. From the lowest fomulae (where testing can be free) up through the ranks with mandated testing only, to Formula One where today the ability to actually drive your car is so increasingly restricted, the amount of actual driving reduces, not only by race and testing dates but also by engine and gearbox mileage limitations. A tennis player, a golfer, a swimmer can all exercise their particular sporting prowess more the higher the pyramid they climb - it seems odd that in our field the reward for excellence is the withdrawal of the chance to do the thing you are best at!
Yes, proof, if proof were needed, that any sporting pretensions have been hi-jacked at the highest level by individuals & organisations who have their vested interests uppermost. It has come about because people in the 'lower' echelons have no power to have a say or resist & the organisations that do have some weight, seem to be run by cowards who are afraid to try & break the bonds.
For all the corruption that allegedlly goes on in football & other sports, these sports do seem to support all their levels.
#130
Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:38
#131
Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:49
That's it then. Number One has to be Otterino Volonterio. I had a feeling it would be.
My money is still on Otto Stuppacher
#132
Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:55
#133
Posted 13 November 2012 - 15:57
Nah!That's it then. Number One has to be Otterino Volonterio. I had a feeling it would be.
It'll be Turn de Petroloff
#134
Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:06
Paul M
#135
Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:22
#136
Posted 13 November 2012 - 17:27
You're all wrong, it'll be Mr Letme Throughorwecrash, I'd bet my house on it.
I once found a book on Fleabay titled "Ayrton Senna's Principles of Race Driving" - seriously, it said principles.
#137
Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:19
I once found a book on Fleabay titled "Ayrton Senna's Principles of Race Driving" - seriously, it said principles.
Not so much a book, more a pamphlet - or a postage stamp...
#138
Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:22
Whatever happened to Carlos Fandango?
#139
Posted 13 November 2012 - 19:32
#141
Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:35
Credit where it's due: the teenage scribblers of the BBC started the real silliness and your/our digression helps some of us cope with that.I apologise to all serious-minded TNFers. I fear I started this silliness.
Edited by Allan Lupton, 13 November 2012 - 20:37.
#142
Posted 13 November 2012 - 20:36
or team-mate Vladinir SpunitovOr that consistent Russian, Ineva Spinoff?
#143
Posted 20 November 2012 - 18:14
#144
Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:04
#145
Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:37
I once found a book on Fleabay titled "Ayrton Senna's Principles of Race Driving" - seriously, it said principles.
Have you seen how much that book's being sold for on Amazon!
I once had a copy which is now in safe keeping.
#146
Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:43
#147
Posted 20 November 2012 - 19:52
Really, they could've called it the "BBC Formula 1's most overrated drivers"!
#148
Posted 20 November 2012 - 20:57
Have you seen how much that book's being sold for on Amazon!
I once had a copy which is now in safe keeping.
Holy smoke! £180 new, £65 used. Why???? What's in there that's so unmissable? Supply and demand I suppose.
#149
Posted 20 November 2012 - 21:04
And I don't think Schumacher or Vettel should be in the top 10 even if, in the case of the latter, you'd probably have to add the word 'yet'...
But, at the risk of going against the grain, the rest of the top 10 is not a million miles away. The exact order might not be to everyone's tastes, but you'd have to admit that Senna, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Moss and Alonso should all be in there somewhere.
One problem with compiling a list is that people are fond of overlooking the obvious choices in favour of less well-known options as a way of attempting to display their depth of knowledge.
Another long-standing personal irritation is the way folk dismiss a controversial selection or inaccuracy as being the work of clueless youngsters. Poor fact-checking is undoubtedly annoying, but in my experience older people are more than capable of making the occasional slip as well.
The last time I checked, there were no 'teenagers' on the BBC F1 team.
#150
Posted 20 November 2012 - 22:16