STR drivers comparison

Best qualifying debut in STR (result):

01 Ricciardo - 10th
02 Vergne - 11th
03 Liuzzi - 15th
04 Buemi - 16th
05 Speed - 16th
06 Bourdais - 18th
07 Alguersuari - 20th
08 Vettel - 20th

Best race debut in STR (result):

01 Buemi - 7th
02 Bourdais - 7th
03 Ricciardo - 9th
04 Vergne - 11th
05 Liuzzi - 11th
06 Speed - 13th
07 Alguersuari - 15th
08 Vettel - 16th

Best race debut in STR (all lap by lap positions during the race counted together):

01 Buemi - 8,655
02 Bourdais - 9,782
03 Liuzzi - 10,193
04 Vergne - 11,620
05 Speed - 13,929
06 Alguersuari - 15,623
07 Ricciardo - 16,224
08 Vettel - 16,971

Comparisons just for fun... Will continue after Malaysia...
Btw. today it looks funny how weak was Seb Vettel's debut (and also his next few races) with STR...

conclusion: fail to impress with STR in your first race and then you'll be 2wdc.

Best race debut in STR (all lap by lap positions during the race counted together):

01 Buemi - 8,655
02 Bourdais - 9,782
03 Liuzzi - 10,193
04 Vergne - 11,620
05 Speed - 13,929
06 Alguersuari - 15,623
07 Ricciardo - 16,224
08 Vettel - 16,971

I'm struggling to understand this one.

conclusion: fail to impress with STR in your first race and then you'll be 2wdc.

So there is hope for Alguersuari yet then...

I'm struggling to understand this one.

I had this problem reading a post last year but it turns out in some European countries they use ',' as a decimal point.

It's the average position the driver was in each lap (re-written).

01 Buemi - 8.655
02 Bourdais - 9.782
03 Liuzzi - 10.193
04 Vergne - 11.620
05 Speed - 13.929
06 Alguersuari - 15.623
07 Ricciardo - 16.224
08 Vettel - 16.971

I.e. Buemi was on average about 8th at the end of each lap etc.

Edit: Or at least I think so.

Edited by InvertedLift, 18 March 2012 - 13:12.

I think this is really difficult, clearly the STR that Vettel drove was better than the 10/11 car by some margin relative to its peers. How this years car matches up is unclear but gut feeling is STR have gained from the EBD ban.

I had this problem reading a post last year but it turns out in some European countries they use ',' as a decimal point.

It's the average position the driver was in each lap (re-written).

01 Buemi - 8.655
02 Bourdais - 9.782
03 Liuzzi - 10.193
04 Vergne - 11.620
05 Speed - 13.929
06 Alguersuari - 15.623
07 Ricciardo - 16.224
08 Vettel - 16.971

I.e. Buemi was on average about 8th at the end of each lap etc.

Edit: Or at least I think so.

Yes...

Best qualifying position of a STR driver after 10 Formula One weekends (result):

01 Ricciardo - 6th
02 Vettel - 9th
03 Buemi - 10th
04 Vergne - 11th
05 Alguersuari - 12th
06 Liuzzi - 13th
06 Bourdais - 13th
08 Speed - 13th

Best race position of a STR driver after 10 Formula One weekends (result):

01 Vettel - 4th
02 Buemi - 7th
03 Bourdais - 7th
04 Liuzzi - 8th
05 Vergne - 8th
06 Speed - 9th
07 Ricciardo - 9th
08 Alguersuari - 11th


Best race performance of a STR driver after 10 Formula One weekends (all lap by lap positions during the race counted together):

01 Vettel - 4,978
02 Buemi - 7,268
03 Liuzzi - 8,270
04 Vergne - 8,517
05 Bourdais - 9,782
06 Speed - 9,912
07 Alguersuari - 11,534
08 Ricciardo - 12,280

Best results of a STR driver. Ever.:

1- Vettel


2 - ....

It's a harsh comparison for Buemi/Alguersuari/Ricciardo/Vergne.

The same chassis as the main team's car (Newey designed) with a better engine vs a car actually constructed by the team.

Not even close to the same thing.

Something I always find interesting is that in the first few races of 2008 Vettel was awful and Bourdais was much better than him. Then they introduced a new car, which Bourdais did not like but Vettel did, and suddenly the tables were turned. That's one of the reasons I don't rate Vettel that highly. I think Toro Rosso and Red Bull in general had an agenda to make Vettel look better because he was from their young driver thing, and Bourdais wasn't.

Something I always find interesting is that in the first few races of 2008 Vettel was awful and Bourdais was much better than him. Then they introduced a new car, which Bourdais did not like but Vettel did, and suddenly the tables were turned. That's one of the reasons I don't rate Vettel that highly. I think Toro Rosso and Red Bull in general had an agenda to make Vettel look better because he was from their young driver thing, and Bourdais wasn't.

That just sounds like paranoia.

Something I always find interesting is that in the first few races of 2008 Vettel was awful and Bourdais was much better than him. Then they introduced a new car, which Bourdais did not like but Vettel did, and suddenly the tables were turned. That's one of the reasons I don't rate Vettel that highly. I think Toro Rosso and Red Bull in general had an agenda to make Vettel look better because he was from their young driver thing, and Bourdais wasn't.

Tables never turned. Vettel was running 3rd in Fuji in his 'thrown-in-midseason' debut in 2007 and then finished 4th in China, which is higher than any other Toro Rosso driver has ever finished. His talent was on display quite early. The first few races in 2008 didn't go well, but he wasn't awful. Just some first lap incidents that hurt his chances of doing anything. And whatever Toro Rosso did in 2008, it worked a charm as Vettel often found himself running ahead of the senior team cars by midseason. I dont believe that Toro Rosso made an all new car just for Seb, but even if they had, that choice would have been justified seeing what he did that year. Trying to dismiss his accomplishments off by saying it was all down to him being favored sounds like bitterness to me.

Tables never turned. Vettel was running 3rd in Fuji in his 'thrown-in-midseason' debut in 2007 and then finished 4th in China, which is higher than any other Toro Rosso driver has ever finished. His talent was on display quite early. The first few races in 2008 didn't go well, but he wasn't awful. Just some first lap incidents that hurt his chances of doing anything. And whatever Toro Rosso did in 2008, it worked a charm as Vettel often found himself running ahead of the senior team cars by midseason. I dont believe that Toro Rosso made an all new car just for Seb, but even if they had, that choice would have been justified seeing what he did that year. Trying to dismiss his accomplishments off by saying it was all down to him being favored sounds like bitterness to me.

He wasn't particularly fast either in early 2008. It wasn't just first lap incidents. And I wasn't trying to diminish his achievements particularly, I'm just highly distrustful of the whole Red Bull organisation ad their motives. Bourdais himself said many times that the car used in 2007 and early 2008 suited him, whereas the proper 2008 car did not at all. Basically, if you didn't know this already, the car used by STR for the first few rounds of 2008 was the 2007 car updated a bit. Therefore it should have suited Vettel more, but he was beaten by Bourdais in that time. Anyway, to keep on topic with the thread title, I don't think that what some people say about Alguersuari/Buemi/Ricciardo/Vergne not being the next Vettel is fair. It must be remembered that the 2008 STR was an extremely good car, and with the Ferrari engine probably actually better than the Red Bull. 2008 was also an extremely close season pace wise. So I do feel that Vettel's achievements during that time are overrated, and that any of the other 4 drivers I mentioned could do a similar job if they found themselves in a similar situation.

That just sounds like paranoia.

No, not really. It's my opinion and it's equally as valid as yours.

No, not really. It's my opinion and it's equally as valid as yours.

Given what's transpired at Red Bull in the years since, I agree with you.

Edited by seltaeb, 26 July 2012 - 15:57.

No, not really. It's my opinion and it's equally as valid as yours.

Oh well, just another one who is desperate to devalue the success of SV then.

He wasn't particularly fast either in early 2008. It wasn't just first lap incidents. And I wasn't trying to diminish his achievements particularly, I'm just highly distrustful of the whole Red Bull organisation ad their motives. Bourdais himself said many times that the car used in 2007 and early 2008 suited him, whereas the proper 2008 car did not at all. Basically, if you didn't know this already, the car used by STR for the first few rounds of 2008 was the 2007 car updated a bit. Therefore it should have suited Vettel more, but he was beaten by Bourdais in that time. Anyway, to keep on topic with the thread title, I don't think that what some people say about Alguersuari/Buemi/Ricciardo/Vergne not being the next Vettel is fair. It must be remembered that the 2008 STR was an extremely good car, and with the Ferrari engine probably actually better than the Red Bull. 2008 was also an extremely close season pace wise. So I do feel that Vettel's achievements during that time are overrated, and that any of the other 4 drivers I mentioned could do a similar job if they found themselves in a similar situation.

Thats exactly what you're trying to do, though. ^

I really dont know what to say to all of this. You're making it sound like Red Bull can just manufacture a 2xWDC out of nothing. What Vettel has done is pretty extraordinary, even starting from his debut season. I think if there so many other drivers that could do what he did, then Red Bull wouldn't care so much about Vettel in particular.

No, not really. It's my opinion and it's equally as valid as yours.

Opinions are not all equally valid. If I have the opinion that Alonso is a terrible driver, you can probably safely write my opinion off as rubbish.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 July 2012 - 16:15.

I really dont know what to say to all of this. You're making it sound like Red Bull can just manufacture a 2xWDC out of nothing. What Vettel has done is pretty extraordinary, even starting from his debut season. I think if there so many other drivers that could do what he did, then Red Bull wouldn't care so much about Vettel in particular.

I didn't say Vettel was a bad driver, in fact I think he's a very good driver, but I don't think he's the demigod some make him out to be. The reason Red Bull like Vettel in particular is that he fits in to their philosophy and marketing campaign. I really feel that several other drivers who had the same treatment could equal or surpass his achievements. If Webber beats him in the WDC this season I will feel vindicated. Also something to note is that Buemi beat Bourdais by much more than Vettel ever did.

Opinions are not all equally valid.

And some pigs are more equal than others.

Oh well, just another one who is desperate to devalue the success of SV then.

No, one who knows that Red Bull Racing is not a racing team but an advertising tool, and that Vettel fits their image.

No, one who knows that Red Bull Racing is not a racing team but an advertising tool, and that Vettel fits their image.

Nobody seemed to really mind RBR when they weren't winning.

Nobody seemed to really mind RBR when they weren't winning.

Well, I did. I've never liked them. I don't like their whole philosophy and I don't like the image they try to project. Plus I don't drink Red Bull and never intend to.

As a side note, Austrian football club Red Bull Salzburg went out of the Champions League a few days ago to Luxembourgian amateurs Dudelange. That made me so happy. I really can't stand the in-your-face sports advertising of Red Bull.

We perhaps can put it like this: Vettel is very very good, but the perfect storm that was the Toro Rosso in 2008 makes it also very very hard to repeat Vettels success that year. Apart from the best Toro Roso car ever, Vettel for instance had already from the beginning total backing from Red Bull - he was destined for the big team as long as he didn't totally screwed up - which of course makes for a positive environment. Today the Toro Rosso drivers know that if they don't impress, preferably a race win, they can be kicked out at just about any time.

We perhaps can put it like this: Vettel is very very good, but the perfect storm that was the Toro Rosso in 2008 makes it also very very hard to repeat Vettels success that year. Apart from the best Toro Roso car ever, Vettel for instance had already from the beginning total backing from Red Bull - he was destined for the big team as long as he didn't totally screwed up - which of course makes for a positive environment. Today the Toro Rosso drivers know that if they don't impress, preferably a race win, they can be kicked out at just about any time.

We perhaps can put it like this: Vettel is very very good, but the perfect storm that was the Toro Rosso in 2008 makes it also very very hard to repeat Vettels success that year. Apart from the best Toro Roso car ever, Vettel for instance had already from the beginning total backing from Red Bull - he was destined for the big team as long as he didn't totally screwed up - which of course makes for a positive environment. Today the Toro Rosso drivers know that if they don't impress, preferably a race win, they can be kicked out at just about any time.

You dont think Red Bull are trying very hard to find another topline driver to replace Webber? Until somebody shows some exceptional skill like Vettel did, they'll keep Webber onboard. Vettel was a sure shot for a full-time RBR seat because he was recognized to be very good and had the performances to back it up. Scott Speed, Vitantonio Liuzzi, Jaime Alguersuari, Sebastian Buemi, Sebastien Bourdais and now Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne simply haven't shown anything close to what Vettel was capable of. Perhaps one of the new guys will in time, but so far, they clearly see that Webber is the better option at the moment and I take that as an obvious sign that RBR are keen on appointing people into their race seats by driving ability and not just marketability.

And its really asinine to say Red Bull Racing aren't an actual racing team. You dont come in and beat the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren for multiple seasons if you're not a serious contender. They put a lot of time, money and effort into creating a strong technical structure, a tight operational side, and a fantastic pair of drivers. Try and take away their accomplishments all you like, but it only makes your favored driver/team look a lot worse if they cant beat this 'non race team'.

He wasn't particularly fast either in early 2008. It wasn't just first lap incidents. And I wasn't trying to diminish his achievements particularly, I'm just highly distrustful of the whole Red Bull organisation ad their motives. Bourdais himself said many times that the car used in 2007 and early 2008 suited him, whereas the proper 2008 car did not at all. Basically, if you didn't know this already, the car used by STR for the first few rounds of 2008 was the 2007 car updated a bit. Therefore it should have suited Vettel more, but he was beaten by Bourdais in that time. Anyway, to keep on topic with the thread title, I don't think that what some people say about Alguersuari/Buemi/Ricciardo/Vergne not being the next Vettel is fair. It must be remembered that the 2008 STR was an extremely good car, and with the Ferrari engine probably actually better than the Red Bull. 2008 was also an extremely close season pace wise. So I do feel that Vettel's achievements during that time are overrated, and that any of the other 4 drivers I mentioned could do a similar job if they found themselves in a similar situation.

Get baqck to me when a STR driver:
Gets a pole
Gets a win
Actually, lower the bar, get a 5th position (best result other than Vettel is Liuzzi's 6th at China 2007)
Almost Single-handedly gets STR to 6th in the WCC
Gets 8th in the WDC
Gets 5 top 6 finishes in a row. (Seb did Europe-Japan 6 5 1 5 6)
Gets 91 points in a season (under today's rules)

Scott Speed, Vitantonio Liuzzi, Jaime Alguersuari, Sebastian Buemi, Sebastien Bourdais and now Daniel Ricciardo and Jean Eric Vergne simply haven't shown anything close to what Vettel was capable of.

It must be remembered that the 2008 Toro Rosso was by far the best Toro Rosso ever. For all you know Buemi and Alguersuari and Ricciardo and Vergne could be doing equally as well as Vettel did without the results to show for it because the car isn't good enough.

And its really asinine to say Red Bull Racing aren't an actual racing team. You dont come in and beat the likes of Ferrari and Mclaren for multiple seasons if you're not a serious contender. They put a lot of time, money and effort into creating a strong technical structure, a tight operational side, and a fantastic pair of drivers. Try and take away their accomplishments all you like, but it only makes your favored driver/team look a lot worse if they cant beat this 'non race team'.

I know you weren't replying to my comment, but I am a sports fan, not a fan of mass advertising. Red Bull Racing exists to help sell cans. I, together with many others, am against the over-commercialisation of everything. Red Bull Racing represents that. It also doesn't help that the team principal is extremely dislikeable and their constant attempts to bend the rules leave a bad taste.

Get baqck to me when a STR driver:
Gets a pole
Gets a win
Actually, lower the bar, get a 5th position (best result other than Vettel is Liuzzi's 6th at China 2007)
Almost Single-handedly gets STR to 6th in the WCC
Gets 8th in the WDC
Gets 5 top 6 finishes in a row. (Seb did Europe-Japan 6 5 1 5 6)
Gets 91 points in a season (under today's rules)

Please will you get back to us when STR have a car that is anywhere near as good as their 2008 one.

I believe Vettel is a top 3 driver in F1 at the moment but I also believe the following

the perfect storm that was the Toro Rosso in 2008 makes it also very very hard to repeat Vettels success that year. Apart from the best Toro Roso car ever, Vettel for instance had already from the beginning total backing from Red Bull - he was destined for the big team as long as he didn't totally screwed up - which of course makes for a positive environment. Today the Toro Rosso drivers know that if they don't impress, preferably a race win, they can be kicked out at just about any time.

Please will you get back to us when STR have a car that is anywhere near as good as their 2008 one.

The car which started life about 16th on the grid in Monaco, that got developed by team (and quite possibly drivers) into a points scoring candidate.

The car which started life about 16th on the grid in Monaco, that got developed by team (and quite possibly drivers) into a points scoring candidate.

Yes, the car which by the last third of the season was one of the best on the grid at certain tracks.

Regardless of whether the 08 STR was its best car ever or not, Toro Rosso hasn't had much solid results in other years even with decent cars. They had a good car last year yet they never broke the top 6. Nor did they in 2009 when the car was fast at the beginning and the end of the season.

I agree that Vettel's tenure at STR coincided with Toro Rosso producing a good car (in 2008 at least) but no other driver in Toro Rosso's history would have been able to beat the Red Bull senior team that year. I also don't buy that the Toro Rosso was better than the Red Bull because of the Ferrari engine. They had a Ferrari engine in 2007 as well and they weren't able to beat them. Vettel even beat Webber in the standings with a similar margin to their years as teammates (bar 2011).

Also something which must be remembered is that when it was announced that Vettel was to join the senior team, the sum total of his results was 1 fourth place, 1 fifth place, and
two eighth places, the latter three coming in races of extremely high attrition. That was over about a season's worth of races, split between 2007 and 2008. That's not really more impressive than what Buemi and Alguersuari managed.

It must be remembered that the 2008 Toro Rosso was by far the best Toro Rosso ever. For all you know Buemi and Alguersuari and Ricciardo and Vergne could be doing equally as well as Vettel did without the results to show for it because the car isn't good enough.

I agree it was the best Toro Rosso, but it was only Vettel that was getting great results in it remember. I feel he played a large part in that car performing as well as it did and I dont think it was a complete coincidence that the year Vettel was there was their best year by far. You seem intent on believing that Buemi and Alguersuari, both of whom did nothing special in their fairly decent length of time in F1, would have done equally well and I will never agree with that. We're gonna have to agree to disagree here cuz neither of us can prove our point conclusively, but I think the overall evidence suggests that Vettel is by far the bigger talent.

I know you weren't replying to my comment, but I am a sports fan, not a fan of mass advertising. Red Bull Racing exists to help sell cans. I, together with many others, am against the over-commercialisation of everything. Red Bull Racing represents that. It also doesn't help that the team principal is extremely dislikeable and their constant attempts to bend the rules leave a bad taste.

You dont have to like their intentions, but to say that they're not a real racing team is just plain wrong. Besides, most teams are in F1 for reasons other than just "Yea, that looks like something fun to compete in." Commercialization of the sport has already happened, and that was a long time ago. You're admittedly biased here and I think that also plays a part in how you try and devalue Vettel's accomplishments.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 July 2012 - 19:25.

Also something which must be remembered is that when it was announced that Vettel was to join the senior team, the sum total of his results was 1 fourth place, 1 fifth place, and
two eighth places, the latter three coming in races of extremely high attrition. That was over about a season's worth of races, split between 2007 and 2008. That's not really more impressive than what Buemi and Alguersuari managed.

Yes it is.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 July 2012 - 19:26.

They had a good car last year.

Did they?! I think that would not be an opinion shared by most people.

I also don't buy that the Toro Rosso was better than the Red Bull because of the Ferrari engine.

From what I remember it seemed to be the general consensus in 2008 that the STR was better.

Yes it is.

No it isn't. Not when you consider that the Toro Rosso was almost certainly a better car then, and that Vettel had more experience in terms of mileage than Buemi and especially Alguersuari.

No it isn't. Not when you consider that the Toro Rosso was almost certainly a better car then, and that Vettel had more experience in terms of mileage than Buemi and especially Alguersuari.

Algy/Buemi had plenty of time at Toro Rosso to make an impression. They didn't. Most top level drivers can make an impression no matter what car they drive, which is exactly what Vettel did on numerous occasions.

I agree it was the best Toro Rosso, but it was only Vettel that was getting great results in it remember. I feel he played a large part in that car performing as well as it did and I dont think it was a complete coincidence that the year Vettel was there was their best year by far. You seem intent on believing that Buemi and Alguersuari, both of whom did nothing special in their fairly decent length of time in F1, would have done equally well and I will never agree with that. We're gonna have to agree to disagree here cuz neither of us can prove our point conclusively, but I think the overall evidence suggests that Vettel is by far the bigger talent.

Vettel vs Bourdais was not the one-sided battle it appeared to be, people forget that Bourdais had much worse luck than Vettel. He was robbed of 4th on his debut, was denied a podium within sight of the flag at Spa, and I genuinely feel he could have challenged Vettel for the win in Monza if he hadn't had an electrical problem. He was also hit with a ridiculous penalty in Fuji, a race where he convincingly beat Vettel. We are never going to agree, because I feel that while Vettel is good, he lucked into a good Toro Rosso then lucked into the fastest car by a mile in F1 for the last few seasons. Put him in a midfield car and I don't think he'd look anything special. As you said, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

You dont have to like their intentions, but to say that they're not a real racing team is just plain wrong. Besides, most teams are in F1 for reasons other than just "Yea, that looks like something fun to compete in." Commercialization of the sport has already happened, and that was a long time ago. You're admittedly biased here and I think that also plays a part in how you try and devalue Vettel's accomplishments.

I must say again, I am not trying to devalue the accomplishments of Vettel or Red Bull Racing, the latter of which I feel is the more important factor. There is no doubt that there are some very talented people at RBR, and doubtless some genuinely nice people as well, but there is no shying away from the fact that the team is not there for any other reasons than selling drinks. Other teams, like Williams or Mclaren, were created to race and only later became commercialised. I can accept that. What I can't accept is a company buying an F1 team solely as a marketing tool, so therefore I do not like RBR. No, I didn't like BAR either. I also feel very strongly that 'gentleman's' agreements' and rules should be stuck to at all times, and Red Bull do not do that. Call me old fashioned, I don't care, everyone's entitled to their ideals.

Algy/Buemi had plenty of time at Toro Rosso to make an impression. They didn't. Most top level drivers can make an impression no matter what car they drive, which is exactly what Vettel did on numerous occasions.

I don't particularly want to keep arguing, but by the time Vettel's promotion was announced, he had done nothing special at all. He was lucky there was a vacancy and that Coulthard was retiring. Right place, right time. But as I have said in my previous post, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't particularly want to keep arguing, but by the time Vettel's promotion was announced, he had done nothing special at all.

Yup, we definitely have to stop this 'discussion'.

Edited by Seanspeed, 26 July 2012 - 19:49.

Yup, we definitely have to stop this 'discussion'.

I should clarify what I meant there actually. It was announced that he would be promoted just before Hockenheim 2008 I think, by which time Vettel had only scored 1 fifth and 1 eighth so far that season, and had gone out in Q1 several times, only qualifying in the top 10 about twice I think. Obviously by the time he actually joined the senior team he had done something special by winning a race.

I should clarify what I meant there actually. It was announced that he would be promoted just before Hockenheim 2008 I think, by which time Vettel had only scored 1 fifth and 1 eighth so far that season, and had gone out in Q1 several times, only qualifying in the top 10 about twice I think. Obviously by the time he actually joined the senior team he had done something special by winning a race.

He was running a genuine 3rd place in the Japanese GP in 2007. Thats not special? I'm sure you've got some explanation for how it was unimpressive or just the car. Or perhaps you'll take the angle that since he crashed into Webber, it means that we should just ignore what was a pretty incredible race for him.

But then what about China? Finished 4th in the Toro Rosso. He benefitted from some retirements, but not a whole lot. He still finished ahead of Heidfeld, Kovalainen, DC, Webber, his teammate, Trulli, Rosberg, Wurz, Button, etc etc. Dismiss it as just a lucky result due to a bunch of retirements but lets not act like Alguersuari and Buemi never had races where there were plenty of retirements, too, so you're going to have to come up with something good to say that wasn't a special drive.

Then Monaco 2008. I suggest you go and find that race again if you can. It was a fantastic drive.

These were already special. Nobody ever expected him to win races at Toro Rosso. The fact that he did just justified RBR's belief in him and showed Vettel was no ordinary driver. Algy/Buemi were never able to even come close to making the impression that Vettel did. A few solid drives here and there combined long periods of mediocrity. Like I said, top drivers find a way to stand out, which was precisely what Vettel did and what others in the Red Bull program failed to do.

He was running a genuine 3rd place in the Japanese GP in 2007. Thats not special? I'm sure you've got some explanation for how it was unimpressive or just the car. Or perhaps you'll take the angle that since he crashed into Webber, it means that we should just ignore what was a pretty incredible race for him.

But then what about China? Finished 4th in the Toro Rosso. He benefitted from some retirements, but not a whole lot. He still finished ahead of Heidfeld, Kovalainen, DC, Webber, his teammate, Trulli, Rosberg, Wurz, Button, etc etc. Dismiss it as just a lucky result due to a bunch of retirements but lets not act like Alguersuari and Buemi never had races where there were plenty of retirements, too, so you're going to have to come up with something good to say that wasn't a special drive.

Then Monaco 2008. I suggest you go and find that race again if you can. It was a fantastic drive.

These were already special. Nobody ever expected him to win races at Toro Rosso. The fact that he did just justified RBR's belief in him and showed Vettel was no ordinary driver. Algy/Buemi were never able to even come close to making the impression that Vettel did. A few solid drives here and there combined long periods of mediocrity. Like I said, top drivers find a way to stand out, which was precisely what Vettel did and what others in the Red Bull program failed to do.

Seanspeed, really, I wanted to let this argument stop, but I just can not accept it when you describe Monaco 2008 as a fantastic drive. All he did was keep it on the track while others crashed, were taken out or had mechnical issues. He was never particularly fast. Let's not forget that Sutil was set for fourth in the Force India until Raikkonen hit him. That's how crazy a race it was. And also Vettel was 18th in qualifying, behind his teammate.

Anyway, enough from both of us.

Something I always find interesting is that in the first few races of 2008 Vettel was awful and Bourdais was much better than him. Then they introduced a new car, which Bourdais did not like but Vettel did, and suddenly the tables were turned. That's one of the reasons I don't rate Vettel that highly. I think Toro Rosso and Red Bull in general had an agenda to make Vettel look better because he was from their young driver thing, and Bourdais wasn't.

If I have the opinion that Alonso is a terrible driver, you can probably safely write my opinion off as rubbish.

Jarno Trulli was so slow that the train named in his honor was built into strategy simulations. Alonso was once beaten by Jarno Trulli. Therefore Alonso is a terrible driver. Easy.

Seriously, there is no reason for STR to not make a new car to suit Bourdais - multiple champcar champion versus little known rookie, surely Bourdais should be the team leader. Yet Bourdais become much more uncomfortable with the new car and team did not make efforts to change the balance to Bourdais' preference.

Jarno Trulli was so slow that the train named in his honor was built into strategy simulations. Alonso was once beaten by Jarno Trulli. Therefore Alonso is a terrible driver. Easy.

Seriously, there is no reason for STR to not make a new car to suit Bourdais - multiple champcar champion versus little known rookie, surely Bourdais should be the team leader. Yet Bourdais become much more uncomfortable with the new car and team did not make efforts to change the balance to Bourdais' preference.

No, you dont make a whole new car to suit a driver. Especially not midseason in a small team and with a rookie. That really just doesn't happen in F1. It didn't happen with Vettel and it certainly wouldn't happen at a small team like Toro Rosso with Bourdais, who was completely unproven in F1 and a rookie as well. Vettel was not some little known rookie, either. He had made quite a fair impression in F3, in WSBR and also as a test driver for BMW/Sauber.

Either way, Bourdais stuck around after Vettel left and still accomplished nothing. Maybe it was just Toro Rosso, but RBR were justified in leaning towards Vettel, cuz Bourdais was not performing. Its as simple as that. Teams dont want drivers who cant adapt to what they're given. Yes, they can make changes to help out, but if its a rookie, you certainly aren't gonna be happy about creating a 'new car' for them. In the end, Bourdais proved to be uncompetitive and is out of F1 while Vettel is now a 2xWDC. Like I said - their decisions were justified.

Edited by Seanspeed, 27 July 2012 - 16:03.

Toro Rosso 2007 has the worst car ever on their short history.

Until the 14 race (over 17) the best result of Liuzzi was a 14th. After that... a 6th.

Vettel achieved 5 points on just 7 races (while Liuzzi achieved 3 points on the whole season). The same amount of points Alguersuari achieved in the whole season of 2010 (with the new points system), while Buemi achieved 8 points.

Edited by Alarcon, 27 July 2012 - 17:00.

No, you dont make a whole new car to suit a driver. Especially not midseason in a small team and with a rookie. That really just doesn't happen in F1. It didn't happen with Vettel and it certainly wouldn't happen at a small team like Toro Rosso with Bourdais, who was completely unproven in F1 and a rookie as well. Vettel was not some little known rookie, either. He had made quite a fair impression in F3, in WSBR and also as a test driver for BMW/Sauber.

Either way, Bourdais stuck around after Vettel left and still accomplished nothing. Maybe it was just Toro Rosso, but RBR were justified in leaning towards Vettel, cuz Bourdais was not performing. Its as simple as that. Teams dont want drivers who cant adapt to what they're given. Yes, they can make changes to help out, but if its a rookie, you certainly aren't gonna be happy about creating a 'new car' for them. In the end, Bourdais proved to be uncompetitive and is out of F1 while Vettel is now a 2xWDC. Like I said - their decisions were justified.

He was named the best rookie in F3 on 2005 and I´ve read (though was at F1Racing) an interview with Theyseen where he recog. over one lap he was faster than Kubica (and Heidfeld, of course) but he was very young and not so regular on pace as Robert and Nick.

Edited by Alarcon, 27 July 2012 - 17:04.