For the record - 1962 Formula 1
#51
Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:18
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#52
Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:02
and Trevor Taylor in the International Trophy as seen in 'The Fast Lady':
both filmed in 1962. Unfortunately front suspension details are not visible.
Paul M
edit: and there is this car in the Schlumpf museum, seen also here.
Edited by Macca, 02 May 2012 - 08:17.
#53
Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:38
http://forums.autosp...showtopic=71291
#54
Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:00
#55
Posted 02 May 2012 - 09:14
Goodyear tyres, floppy exhaust, yellow mirrors, number roundel on nose far too far back?? A few observations for starters.Why does that Lotus in the foreground of the second Schlumpf picture look wrong? It wasn't there in 2009 when I went to the museum.
#56
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:08
#57
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:09
The engine cover is for a low-exhaust/flat crank car, I think.
Paul M
#58
Posted 02 May 2012 - 10:11
As the car wasn't there when I visited in September 2009, I wonder if it was away being 'done up'. I am hoping to get over to see my cousin in Alsace later this year and I'm sure we will Schlumpf-it again so I'll check.
#59
Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:05
Where John Thompson got his attribution of '938' from I have no idea. If it had been '938' one would expect Team's admittedly sketchy but more or less contemporaneous record keeping to show that number - not the '949' it does in fact show. Considering the technical detail also recorded in these sheets, wilfully entering a dodgy chassis ID makes no sense, since that could merely lead to engineering confusion.
DCN
well... in my 40 year old copy of 'The Story of Lotus', by some young chap called Nye, p.40, the Brussels race entries: " the second car was something of a special, with a late series 21 production chassis frame (number 938), a 4cylinder climax mk 2 engine and a colotti 5 speed transmission. Taylor was to drive it in his first european appearance as works number 2, and it was to be delivered to Jo Siffert.... after the race".
does that help sort anything or add more confusion?!
peter
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#60
Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:50
well... in my 40 year old copy of 'The Story of Lotus', by some young chap called Nye, p.40, the Brussels race entries: " the second car was something of a special, with a late series 21 production chassis frame (number 938), a 4cylinder climax mk 2 engine and a colotti 5 speed transmission. Taylor was to drive it in his first european appearance as works number 2, and it was to be delivered to Jo Siffert.... after the race".
does that help sort anything or add more confusion?!
peter
Have we had lunch yet? I would have drawn that serial from the F1 Register's contemporary state of research, i.e. thanks to Duncan Rabagliati, Paul Sheldon and John Thompson, confident that they had drawn it from direct observation or from correspondence Duncan showed me from Team Lotus. To the best of my recollection they addressed the research before I did. I do recall Duncan providing me with roughly printed out listings, and Jenks and Andrew Ferguson of Team confirming them as far as they could. The description would have come from contemporary reports. Which is what makes the conflicting Type 24 chassis number allocation in Team's hand-written record sheet that I have quoted here so curious.
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 04 May 2012 - 19:55.
#61
Posted 04 May 2012 - 19:59
#62
Posted 04 May 2012 - 20:53
938 was discussed in Jim Clark at Ollon-Villars. I remember because this was my 2nd post on TNF and I spent some time re-typing a few paragraphs from the Jacques Deschenaux Siffert book.
http://www.rts.ch/ar...t-et-clark.html
I didn't see this first time round. Fantastic! Thanks for pointing it out Seppi.
DCN
#63
Posted 04 May 2012 - 22:36
I do wonder, though ...
... would Seppi's Lotus 22 with a 1.5 litre Ford engine have been over the minimum weight limit? Or perhaps it was never weighed?
Seppi, I loved the interview. i was surprised at JoBo's fluency in French (but I shouldn't have been. Clearly this was before Jimmy's sojourn in Paris - although he seemed to inderstand what was being said in french.
#64
Posted 04 May 2012 - 23:23
Could it be that the original intention at Team Lotus was to run a 24 with chassis 949 and a 4 cylinder engine at Brussels. But it wasn't ready so at the last minute they substituted the Filipinetti/ Siffert 21/24 but used chassis plate 949 as the carnets and other paper work said "949"? To mollify Siffert/ Filipinetti they produced the 1500cc Ford engine for their Lotus 22 so that Seppi would be able to race...
No advantage to falsify a basic and entirely in-house engineering summary, never to be seen by any Customs officer... While the car might have carried a false ID the team's own record certainly should not have done so...
DCN
#65
Posted 05 May 2012 - 00:11
#66
Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:51
August 25-26 Grote Prijs van Danske, Roskildering, Copenhagen, Denmark
Sorry for being a bit nitty picking in an another wise very interesting thread, but the danger of repeating information, taking it for granted, has caught up with DCN in this very case. A link to the program covers site: http://www.progcover...kilde620826.jpg
To the best of my understanding it would bee the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962". To my Danish eyes the Grote Prijs van Danske is Dutch - which to Americans are German! ..so I'm told.
By the way, what are the source of Grote Prijs van Danske?
Jesper
#67
Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:14
DCN
#68
Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:53
Auto Visie?
DCN
Or the Black Books?
#69
Posted 06 May 2012 - 15:09
#70
Posted 06 May 2012 - 15:27
#71
Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:01
Originally posted by David McKinney
The Black Books call it 'Dänske Grand Prix", which is not far off the programme title.
Would you reckon the Melbourne Grand Prix of 1958 was the same as what many would (loosely) term the Melbourne Grand Prix of the present day?
#72
Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:26
#73
Posted 06 May 2012 - 16:53
Yet the proper title of the race is the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix." Rather similar, I think, to calling the "Australian Grand Prix" the "Melbourne Grand Prix."
Or, maybe even calling the "100 Miles Road Race" the "Australian Grand Prix," or the "1936 South Australian Centenary Grand Prix" the "1937 Australian Grand Prix."
#74
Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:14
Jesper
#75
Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:33
Who says?Yet the proper title of the race is the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix."
The programme cover is headed "Rosklide Ring"
On the next line is the meeting title - Grand Prix
It could gave been the Dänske (Danish) GP, as the Black Book says, or the John Player Grand Prix or even the Roskile Ring Grand Prix
You can't judge a race by its cover!
#76
Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:44
As Jesper says it´s danske.
#77
Posted 06 May 2012 - 18:54
But I'm not ...
#78
Posted 06 May 2012 - 21:29
Is there anyone can better inform us?
#79
Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:07
The inside pages of the program may be more help.Of course, David, it could all be a silly mistake...
Is there anyone can better inform us?
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#80
Posted 06 May 2012 - 22:17
I wonder does anyone have one? Or if the pages are on the 'net somewhere?
#81
Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:44
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 07 May 2012 - 11:49.
#82
Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:11
It could be worse, Doug. You could have had an Alfa P3 in the entry list.
#83
Posted 07 May 2012 - 14:32
1960/61/62 where the programs say : 196X Grand Prix
All are at Roskilde Ring.
Bjørn
PS. The 1960 race of course was an F2.
Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 07 May 2012 - 14:34.
#84
Posted 07 May 2012 - 16:36
Autosport's (uncredited) full-page report of the 1962 Roskilde race calls it "The Copenhagen Grand Prix".You know, to realise that you have been confused for fifty long years is a somewhat chilling realisation. Thinking back, we used to struggle with these Roskilde F1 races, referring to them as 'Roskilde', or 'The Danish GP', or 'The Copenhagen GP'
#85
Posted 07 May 2012 - 22:26
Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
All 3 "Danish/Copenhagen or Roskilde Ring Grand Prix " are :
1960/61/62 where the programs say : 196X Grand Prix
All are at Roskilde Ring.....
But what we are seeking to confirm, Bjørn, is the actual title of this race...
By what you have written above, it appears that the titles:
Copenhagen Grand Prix
Danish Grand Prix
Roskilde Ring Grand Prix
all applied to one year or another. Which is possible and very interesting to contemplate how that would have come about.
This race, the 1962 ???? Grand Prix is the one in question at the moment, but if other names applied to other races could you please advise?
Edited by Ray Bell, 07 May 2012 - 22:27.
#86
Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:32
The program says : 1962 Grand Prix.
#87
Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:00
On another matter. I was always under the impression that FWMV (V8) engines started with 499. I know that Doug acquired Jim Endreweit's records and shows that this was not the case. I will look into it.
The BRM 24 at Team Lotus had 8 separate exhaust pipes pointing skywards. Actually most the time they had 6 or 7 as they kept on breaking.
Cedric Selzer
#88
Posted 08 May 2012 - 10:19
DCN
#89
Posted 08 May 2012 - 13:37
Cedric
#90
Posted 08 May 2012 - 14:37
DCN
#91
Posted 08 May 2012 - 22:50
...Only on TNF!
#92
Posted 08 May 2012 - 23:14
^^^...
...Only on TNF!
seconded....
#93
Posted 15 May 2012 - 19:04
However , in the program under entries was written "Danske Grand Prix 1962" . This may have continued the name confusion from 1960 & 61 as Autosport , Motoring News , and books on Moss and Brasbham prove.
Hope this is clear now , with the help of Morten Alstrup (TNF member) , and the President of the Danish Automobile Sports Club (DASU).
Bjørn Kjer or Bjorn Kjer
Edited by Bjorn Kjer, 15 May 2012 - 19:06.
#94
Posted 15 May 2012 - 22:36
Thank you Bjørn...
#95
Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:01
seconded....
Looking at the programme cover, I would maintain that it was the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962". Bjørn, do you have any access as to how the Danish contemporary press referred to the race?
Jesper
#96
Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:11
#97
Posted 16 May 2012 - 15:22
But what we are seeking to confirm, Bjørn, is the actual title of this race...
By what you have written above, it appears that the titles:
Copenhagen Grand Prix
Danish Grand Prix
Roskilde Ring Grand Prix
all applied to one year or another. Which is possible and very interesting to contemplate how that would have come about.
This race, the 1962 ???? Grand Prix is the one in question at the moment, but if other names applied to other races could you please advise?
A "Copenhagen Cup" (using the original English spelling of the title) was held at Roskilde Ring, but always for their late May/early June meeting. This may explain the confusion about the Grand Prix, held in August.
What ever Bjørn Kjær, DASU and Morten Alstrup says, I'd still say it was the "Roskilde Ring Grand Prix 1962".
Jesper
#98
Posted 16 May 2012 - 21:12
However, there's obviously a lot of interest in the Danish events over these years, so perhaps a fresh thread could investigate all of these questions?
Do we want Bjørn to start it, or will someone else start it and allow him free rein to pursue the connections he has and whomever else to come in and better inform us?
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#100
Posted 17 September 2012 - 20:49
Vince H.