One thing always annoys me. In motorsport the last winner seems to be the best. People are prone to forget everything what happend before. There are so many negative and positive examples for that.
You can smell this kind of attitude and mentality here as well. Jenson has been flying in the second half of last year and he was rated higher than Lewis, who was massively blamed for having some bad races after he had showed how fantastic he was right from the start of his career. Now Jenson is completely underrated, although he is as talented as last year or eight years ago, he just have serious problems to solve.
Another example is Felipe: Kimi Raikkönen was considered as the fastest driver in 2005 (superquick McLaren), Felipe could easiliy keep up with him between 2007 and 2009 in qualifyings, now he has issues and he is completely ignored. Or there are the team principals: if Ferrari win, Domenciali is the best, if not, people start to call for his head, this is the same with Martin.
Everybody can have bad times. (My personal opinion is that Fernando Alonso (and Lewis Hamilton) are the drivers who has very short period of time when they have issues, they always can get the maximum speed out of the car, that's why I find them the best drivers in the world.)
You are as good as in the last race - what a mentality!
Started by
FerrariAlonso
, Jul 10 2012 06:59
38 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
korzeniow
-
- 5,671 posts
- Joined: January 09
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:12
I never heard anyone saying Domenicali is the best. But this guy has a lot of pressure to handle and it's easy to critisize him.
I never considered Button to be first tier driver. He's just not quick.
I also don't think Hamilton is in the same class as Alonso. He has a lot to prove, he's doing OK so far this year (but still not as good as Alonso).
As for the last race mentality. It's easy jump on the bandwagon (e.g. Button hype) because media cover mostly winners, they are talking them up, then come PR from those teams (e.g. Mercedes after wining in China expected to win in Bahrain) and the fans are getting little confused.
I never considered Button to be first tier driver. He's just not quick.
I also don't think Hamilton is in the same class as Alonso. He has a lot to prove, he's doing OK so far this year (but still not as good as Alonso).
As for the last race mentality. It's easy jump on the bandwagon (e.g. Button hype) because media cover mostly winners, they are talking them up, then come PR from those teams (e.g. Mercedes after wining in China expected to win in Bahrain) and the fans are getting little confused.
#4
HoldenRT
-
- 6,773 posts
- Joined: May 05
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:45
A month or two seems like a lifetime in F1. Let alone worrying about a season or two ago.
#5
Bloggsworth
-
- 9,400 posts
- Joined: April 07
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:38
Must be why Maldonado keeps crashing into other drivers...
#6
johnmhinds
-
- 7,292 posts
- Joined: July 09
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:38
Pastor Maldonado is a perfect example of this 
He has gone from zero to hero and back to zero faster than any other F1 driver in recent memory.
He has gone from zero to hero and back to zero faster than any other F1 driver in recent memory.
#7
Seanspeed
-
- 21,814 posts
- Joined: October 08
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:40
For real. We hear him get bashed and blamed fully for anything that ever goes wrong at Ferrari, but the second they do well everyone is 'Forza Ferrari' and 'Forza Alonso' or whatever. Never 'great job Domencali'.I never heard anyone saying Domenicali is the best.
But yea, the 'you're as good as your last race' thing is really annoying and I have no idea how fans can be so short-sighted, but they largely are.
#8
korzeniow
-
- 5,671 posts
- Joined: January 09
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:45
Pastor Maldonado is a perfect example of this
He has gone from zero to hero and back to zero faster than any other F1 driver in recent memory.
Anyone remember this:
#9
fhaneef
-
- 161 posts
- Joined: February 09
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:50
I personally would like to see Paster in a Mclaren or Lotus. He reminds me of a 'Don't give me no sh!t' Montoya.
I hope he continues to be this aggressive and doesn't back off, he is outperforming the car unlike senna who is a measure of where the Williams actually is.
Its easy to slate someone at his age but there aren't many drivers who could do what he did at spain, not only soak up pressure from Alonso but give it aswell.
Edited by fhaneef, 10 July 2012 - 12:51.
#10
andresitoiniesta
-
- 118 posts
- Joined: July 12
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 13:11
Newey is the best.
No. Gordon Murray is the best. Newey is as good as in the last race.
#11
discover23
-
- 9,302 posts
- Joined: September 11
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 17:18
I never had this mentality. My mentality has always been that a great car in some cases will flatter some drivers.
From your examples, I never rated Massa nor Button to be amongst the best of the best.
If someone claims that Massa or Button are at Alonso's level, they have no clue about F1 and should watch another sport which is easier to understand.
From your examples, I never rated Massa nor Button to be amongst the best of the best.
If someone claims that Massa or Button are at Alonso's level, they have no clue about F1 and should watch another sport which is easier to understand.
#12
F1Newbie
-
- 899 posts
- Joined: November 10
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 17:32
We tend to mix talent and form. They are all obviously talented but few can keep their form all the time. Alonso is always on form that's why he's considered the best. That's how I see it.
#13
Skinnyguy
-
- 4,391 posts
- Joined: August 10
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 19:43
Good to see this topic being discussed.
Wise people judge drivers considering all their career. Sadly looks like most following this sport are not wise.
Wise people judge drivers considering all their career. Sadly looks like most following this sport are not wise.
#14
bub
-
- 2,722 posts
- Joined: July 11
Member
Posted 10 July 2012 - 19:47
We tend to mix talent and form. They are all obviously talented but few can keep their form all the time. Alonso is always on form that's why he's considered the best. That's how I see it.
#15
slideways
-
- 3,395 posts
- Joined: January 09
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:27
For some reason we expect F1 fans to be logical intelligent thinkers but in reality they are more like football Hooligans IMO.Good to see this topic being discussed.
Wise people judge drivers considering all their career. Sadly looks like most following this sport are not wise.
#16
fieraku
-
- 5,304 posts
- Joined: June 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:16
Pastor Maldonado is a perfect example of this
He has gone from zero to hero and back to zero faster than any other F1 driver in recent memory.
In three weeks time no one will remember Maldonado! Remember Perez,and Rosberg,the other one hit wonders.? I don't.
#17
halifaxf1fan
-
- 4,846 posts
- Joined: March 09
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:28
fieraku, I think that Maldonado has been particularly skilled at keeping his name remembered since his win!
Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 July 2012 - 02:28.
#18
fieraku
-
- 5,304 posts
- Joined: June 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:31
True ,I should have been thorough as I meant he won't be remembered as a Winner.
,I should have been thorough as I meant he won't be remembered as a Winner.
#19
halifaxf1fan
-
- 4,846 posts
- Joined: March 09
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:37
True
That's better.
Advertisement
#20
aditya-now
-
- 7,447 posts
- Joined: June 02
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:40
fieraku, I think that Maldonado has been particularly skilled at keeping his name remembered since his win!
As someone else said further up, Maldonado is the modern day Montoya. Albeit a even more dangerous spec.
#21
squiresm
-
- 37 posts
- Joined: October 10
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 14:52
People being fickle really bugs me. The reaction after this weekend is a good example of this in action - all the talk post-race seems to be about how McLaren have completely lost their way and have suddenly got the sixth best car on the grid...this despite Hamilton comfortably running in 2nd at Valencia before the tyres fell away and winning the race before that!
#22
Afterburner
-
- 9,226 posts
- Joined: January 11
RC Forum Host
Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:19
'You're only as good as your last race' isn't an entirely unfounded belief for any sport, and I think it's especially true for Formula One. Form changes constantly in any sport. You can rate a driver's standing in historical terms by considering their entire career, but it's much more difficult to predict form based on past results. As an example, would you really sign Massa right now based on his 2008 season? Or, after 2010, would you have signed Schumacher based on what he did in 2004?
As they say, form is temporary while class is permanent. Class alone, unfortunately, does not get you results. If I were a team owner, I'd be looking at the drivers who are doing well in the present rather than those who did well in the past--I would consider Webber a far more valuable driver than Massa or Button right now, for example, based on their recent performances (but then again, I've rated Webber very highly since 2011 anyway, so...).
Of course, I consider a window bigger than just one's previous race when I set out to assess a driver's form, but I usually don't look farther back than a year.
As they say, form is temporary while class is permanent. Class alone, unfortunately, does not get you results. If I were a team owner, I'd be looking at the drivers who are doing well in the present rather than those who did well in the past--I would consider Webber a far more valuable driver than Massa or Button right now, for example, based on their recent performances (but then again, I've rated Webber very highly since 2011 anyway, so...).
Of course, I consider a window bigger than just one's previous race when I set out to assess a driver's form, but I usually don't look farther back than a year.
#23
Jon83
-
- 5,341 posts
- Joined: November 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:51
The term isn't exclusive to motorsport.
#24
seahawk
-
- 3,132 posts
- Joined: November 09
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 15:55
Well imho one has to differentiate between drivers and cars. 2 good races do not make a driver top class, nor do 2 bad races make a good driver bad. For a car however, 2 or 3 bad races in a row are usually an indication of a serious problem.
#25
pingu666
-
- 9,272 posts
- Joined: October 07
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 18:11
its a very F1 thing, i think
along with massive forgettory
ie lewis had a bad season (he was badass at the start)
or alonso losing cos ferrari got the stratagy wrong, and not cos he threw away points at the start
along with massive forgettory
ie lewis had a bad season (he was badass at the start)
or alonso losing cos ferrari got the stratagy wrong, and not cos he threw away points at the start
#26
spacekid
-
- 3,143 posts
- Joined: April 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 18:41
Not everyone is like this. I still regarded Alonso as one of the very best drivers on the grid when he had a difficult time on his return to Renault. Same with Hamilton when McLaren have had dips in form.
Drivers do go through patches of form though, just as with any other sportsperson. So at times it is reasonable to say they are either performing very well, or are dissapointing. Jenson for instance is a good driver I think at times has excelled himself, at others has been slightly flattered by circumstances, and right now is having a bad slump. All they way through I have considered him a good driver, no more or less.
Drivers do go through patches of form though, just as with any other sportsperson. So at times it is reasonable to say they are either performing very well, or are dissapointing. Jenson for instance is a good driver I think at times has excelled himself, at others has been slightly flattered by circumstances, and right now is having a bad slump. All they way through I have considered him a good driver, no more or less.
#27
SCUDmissile
-
- 8,798 posts
- Joined: May 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:10
It is mainly the media that feeds this BS to us. I mean all through last year, Button was held in the same regard as Alonso Hamilton and Vettel, now we don't see anything like that.
Then we had any new driver doing anything being compared to Senna...
Then we had any new driver doing anything being compared to Senna...
#28
Rich
-
- 18,296 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:13
The term isn't exclusive to motorsport.
Indeed. I believe the saying originated in Hollywood where stars/directors claimed "You're only as good as your last movie". So it applies universally.
In that sense, it's a bit like noting that there's never a policeman around when you really need one. It might serve as a last resort to plug an awkward gap in a conversation, when you can't think of anything else on the spur of the moment. But it's neither going to change the world nor strike listeners as a profound observation.
#29
Cavani
-
- 905 posts
- Joined: March 12
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:21
thats the nature of humans and public trends , vettel last year was senna , this year cant beat teammate. last year button is said to raised his performance and can beat hamilton from now on ,this year has nearly half the points of teammate. and so on . u cant tell people how to think , they get carried away , its their nature
#30
OoxLox
-
- 436 posts
- Joined: May 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 19:34
Yeah, judging by the last race like that is a good way to suffer from F1 rather than enjoy it. Like Button fans becoming incredibly depressed about the last few races and forgetting his much longer streaks of good form in the past. Ditto with Hamilton last year, and ditto with those looking to trash Alonso in 08-09 in that pig of a Renault. Oh, and Vettel must be crap over one lap after all as Webbo is out-qualifying him so far this season. Webbo was crap in qually last year mind you, so he must have really improved his driving this year..... aaargh!
Unless you wait until a driver retires to do a full retrospective on him, you can only go by the heights he's achieved in his career so far to judge how good he can be. That also gives you a nice positive spin on your favourite driver too, so it's a win-win situation
Unless you wait until a driver retires to do a full retrospective on him, you can only go by the heights he's achieved in his career so far to judge how good he can be. That also gives you a nice positive spin on your favourite driver too, so it's a win-win situation
#31
Snic
-
- 571 posts
- Joined: July 11
Member
Posted 11 July 2012 - 20:23
Yeah, judging by the last race like that is a good way to suffer from F1 rather than enjoy it. Like Button fans becoming incredibly depressed about the last few races and forgetting his much longer streaks of good form in the past. Ditto with Hamilton last year, and ditto with those looking to trash Alonso in 08-09 in that pig of a Renault. Oh, and Vettel must be crap over one lap after all as Webbo is out-qualifying him so far this season. Webbo was crap in qually last year mind you, so he must have really improved his driving this year..... aaargh!
Unless you wait until a driver retires to do a full retrospective on him, you can only go by the heights he's achieved in his career so far to judge how good he can be. That also gives you a nice positive spin on your favourite driver too, so it's a win-win situation
#32
HoldenRT
-
- 6,773 posts
- Joined: May 05
Member
Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:44
Memories are short but that is because there are so many factors and F1 is so deep and complex.. and constantly evolving.. that everyone must look forward instead of backwards. Or you get left behind. And while looking fowards it's hard to remember much at all about the past, maybe a few races back but not much. As soon as one race ends, they are already focussing on the next. Trying to improve, trying to develop, trying to iron out errors or mistakes etc.
What happened a season or two ago is a lifetime ago. Different tyres, or aero regs.. different driver form, different team pecking order in terms of pace.
Each fan of a certain driver will pay EXTRA attention to that driver including all the minor factors that caused a bad result or a run of bad results but that is not practical for every F1 fan or journo to do that. So it's easier to focus on these drivers when they are having success and are at the front. Yes it's lazy, but it's just human nature. The spotlight can't shine on everyone at once. It's very rare for anyone to be able to spend deep attention to all 24 drivers, and if so, they would be getting payed to do that and even then there is only so much time in the day.
What happened a season or two ago is a lifetime ago. Different tyres, or aero regs.. different driver form, different team pecking order in terms of pace.
Each fan of a certain driver will pay EXTRA attention to that driver including all the minor factors that caused a bad result or a run of bad results but that is not practical for every F1 fan or journo to do that. So it's easier to focus on these drivers when they are having success and are at the front. Yes it's lazy, but it's just human nature. The spotlight can't shine on everyone at once. It's very rare for anyone to be able to spend deep attention to all 24 drivers, and if so, they would be getting payed to do that and even then there is only so much time in the day.
#33
LH08WDC
-
- 591 posts
- Joined: November 09
Member
Posted 12 July 2012 - 04:18
Each fan of a certain driver will pay EXTRA attention to that driver including all the minor factors that caused a bad result or a run of bad results.
Agreed 100%.
#34
apoka
-
- 5,878 posts
- Joined: May 09
Member
Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:03
It's not even the last race, but memories sometimes last only a few laps. Before the SC in Valencia, Vettel was clearly the best driver in the world - dominating a field of very closely matched cars. After that, Alonso became a driving god winning from the mid of the grid. (The period of glory for Grosjean was too short to be remembered.) Now, Webber is the hero of the day and Hamilton is almost forgotten. His last race win dates as far back as June 10, which feels quite close to the beginning of this millennium!
#35
H2H
-
- 2,891 posts
- Joined: June 09
Member
Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:01
It's not even the last race, but memories sometimes last only a few laps. Before the SC in Valencia, Vettel was clearly the best driver in the world - dominating a field of very closely matched cars. After that, Alonso became a driving god winning from the mid of the grid. (The period of glory for Grosjean was too short to be remembered.) Now, Webber is the hero of the day and Hamilton is almost forgotten. His last race win dates as far back as June 10, which feels quite close to the beginning of this millennium!
Actually quite close to the mark...
#36
Slackbladder
-
- 2,161 posts
- Joined: March 09
Member
Posted 12 July 2012 - 07:59
Good to see this topic being discussed.
Wise people judge drivers considering all their career. Sadly looks like most following this sport are not wise.
It's the old saying 'form is temporary, class is permanent'...
#37
Claudius
-
- 5,232 posts
- Joined: December 02
Member
Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:23
OT
For the life of me, I can't understand the comparison that's being made between Montoya and Maldonado.
The first is a succesful driver who had a shot at the WDC 03, has several wins, made some of the most impressive overtakings in the sport and was regarded as one of the best drivers on the grid.
The second is crash king who's crashed intentionally on other drivers and has 1 victory to his name.
I really can't see any similarity (exept that their last names begin with M). Sure, JPM had crashes, but he was a clean driver, hard but clean.
Maldonado on the other hand...
I was a MS fan during the JPM years but I always respected JPMs speed and overtaking abilities.
/OT
For the life of me, I can't understand the comparison that's being made between Montoya and Maldonado.
The first is a succesful driver who had a shot at the WDC 03, has several wins, made some of the most impressive overtakings in the sport and was regarded as one of the best drivers on the grid.
The second is crash king who's crashed intentionally on other drivers and has 1 victory to his name.
I really can't see any similarity (exept that their last names begin with M). Sure, JPM had crashes, but he was a clean driver, hard but clean.
Maldonado on the other hand...
I was a MS fan during the JPM years but I always respected JPMs speed and overtaking abilities.
/OT
#38
launcher
-
- 103 posts
- Joined: June 12
Member
Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:31
We tend to mix talent and form.
Not really. The number 1 reason for all these vastly changing opinions is misjudgement of the cars they are driving and talent. That is the biggest variance, rather than form. In F1 form is pretty constant. I guess most will attribute Button's and Massa's fluctuations with form, but its just down to talent. Form is under performing relative to your ability but these drivers are driving to the maximum of their ability relative to their circumstances.
Edited by launcher, 13 July 2012 - 07:39.
#39
PayasYouRace
-
- 46,508 posts
- Joined: January 10
Racing Sims Forum Host
Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:36
There are a couple of attitudes which I find just as bad.
One is that you're only as good as your worst race, which is sadly applied to drivers like Jenson and Felipe way too often around here. We see a number of drivers considered worse than they actually are because some have decided that they belong at a certain level and if they do better it was just "luck" or because they had a dominant car.
The other is the opposite, that you're only as good as your best race, which is of course applied to Alonso, Vettel, Lewis, etc. This is the opposite, when all the failings of the driver are chalked up to bad luck or whatever.
They are both sides of the same coin, and are the opposite of the only as good as your last race attitude. They both rely on making up your mind about how good a driver is right away. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between the two viewpoints.
One is that you're only as good as your worst race, which is sadly applied to drivers like Jenson and Felipe way too often around here. We see a number of drivers considered worse than they actually are because some have decided that they belong at a certain level and if they do better it was just "luck" or because they had a dominant car.
The other is the opposite, that you're only as good as your best race, which is of course applied to Alonso, Vettel, Lewis, etc. This is the opposite, when all the failings of the driver are chalked up to bad luck or whatever.
They are both sides of the same coin, and are the opposite of the only as good as your last race attitude. They both rely on making up your mind about how good a driver is right away. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between the two viewpoints.
