Sophie's McLaren's choice: What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim?

Yeah, Australia was so long ago

Let's face it, Button only got past on the first corner because of botched clutch settings for Lewis.

I doubt they would tell him to move over, but I don't really see it being an issue either way. Mclaren would be very lucky to get into any kind of 1-2 position.

Let's face it, Button only got past on the first corner because of botched clutch settings for Lewis.

Yeah, and then drove away from coz of um.......

Don't want to open a can of worms here, but JB didn't exactly make it easy for Lewis to get through when he was a pitstop behind and not even racing him just last race! I doubt he'd let Lewis through if they were racing for position, forget the standings, it's a matter of pride. And frankly, whilst I may be unhappy as a fan wanting a Mclaren WDC, I would completely understand.

Exactly

You dont really believe that do you?

Lewis moved over for Jenson last year at Suzuka after saying he'd help Jenson in any way he could. I'd lose a lot of respect for Button if he couldn't return the favor. A lot. And I'd be right there in line with all the angry Mclaren fans saying he should get sacked, too.

I think Button is a team player, but I think whether Mclaren would use team orders this coming race or not comes down to where Button is mentally right now. I've never thought of him as a weak guy mentally(he did leave a championship winning team to partner Lewis after all), but egos can be delicate things. That 'mathematical' chance might be sitting in his head, but I also imagine he's smart enough to realize how that chance is more or less non-existent in practical terms. I imagine he's pretty torn about it and Mclaren probably wouldn't ask him to move over if he hadn't given the team the 'ok' to run him as a no.2. Not this early at least. Especially after the Alonso/Lewis debacle, Mclaren seem to tread pretty lightly when it comes to stepping on their driver's shoes.

But should they? Definitely. They cant let a bruised ego get in the way of a championship.

Getting the car sorted out is probably their main focus, though. Right now, a Mclaren 1-2 seems somewhat far-fetched with Button's current form so until that happens, I dont imagine they'll be all too concerned about the possibility of having to use team orders.

Jenson has always maintained that he wont help his teammate until it is mathematically impossible for him to win the WDC, he reiterrated this in 2010 when he was 49 points behind with 2 races to go

Mclaren know how to do it! "Uhh Jenson we're tight on fuel. Yellow G 1. Confirm?"

Well we know how that turned out, dont we?

Seems a bit early to me to start favouring one driver, the new points system make the gaps look much bigger. I think Mclaren will not do it anyway, it has cost them championships in the past but this is very early in the championship. Hopefully the upgrades will be mega and Mr W will have this problem which he would think is a lovely problem to have, all be it I hope Lewis is in front. Likelihood is they wont be that fast and there will still be a big gap between LH and JB. Presumably if the car become balanced the gap would close

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This thread is about a hypothetical situation, this weekend, at McLaren.

It's not about Turkey '10, or Ferrari, or Whitmarsh manlove. They might guide your response, but they should not be the intent of it. Please try and take notice of the intent of the thread starter and spirit in which it was started, and respond appropriately.

Please REPORT those who try to hijack the thread instead of responding.

No chance they would do that to JB. Ive voted that they should do. I think they might make the call if this was the final race of the season and the only way for hamilton to win would be 25points. But then McLaren wouldnt have to make this call as he's do it anyway.

I doubt Button would comply to such orders. He is not Kovalainen.

Button needs a win more than anything else right now. He would not give that up midseason.

However, the situation at Mclaren would fire up and would make for great entertainment.

Yeah, and then drove away from coz of um.......

Button didn't just "drive away". He was able to get the tires working sooner than Hamilton, but the lap times equalized after a few laps. Button wouldn't have had an easy time getting past Hamilton at the start, and would probably have killed his tires trying to do so.

That's a lot of "ifs" and "buts" though. But to say that he simply drove away is...well...a bit ignorant if I'm honest.

But Button being in front of Hamilton, just isn't going to happen so there's no need to worry about some hypothetical situation.

Button didn't just "drive away". He was able to get the tires working sooner than Hamilton, but the lap times equalized after a few laps. Button wouldn't have had an easy time getting past Hamilton at the start, and would probably have killed his tires trying to do so.

That's a lot of "ifs" and "buts" though. But to say that he simply drove away is...well...a bit ignorant if I'm honest.

But Button being in front of Hamilton, just isn't going to happen so there's no need to worry about some hypothetical situation.

Ok mate

But should, for whatever reason, Hamilton finds himself behind Button; it's up to Hamilton to do the work and get past. Championship or no.

They're racing drivers.

If Lewis want's past he will overtake how he is meant to overtake.

I voted that McLaren wouldn't and that "maybe" they should.

The first answer speaks for itself from what we know about McLaren's racing ethos. At times it may be misplaced but it does exist and you can't get round that.

I almost said "yes" rather than "maybe" to the "should they" question because I think Button has exactly zero chance of winning the championship this year (I expanded on this in the Jenson vs Lewis thread). The only thing that stopped me is remembering how gutted I felt for Massa in Germany 2010, one year on from his crash, and remembering how that moment destroyed any vestige of spark left in him after Hungary 09. With Button in similarly dire straits a win might do his confidence good and help Hamilton come the end of the season. For example, if a rejuvenated Button won late in the season in, say, Japan ahead of Alonso then the net result of Button winning Germany ahead of Hamilton and Button winning Japan ahead of Alonso would be evened out (not considering other title rivals).

Basically, hard to say. My gut feeling is that it would be the right thing for McLaren to do but even as a fan of Hamilton and someone who doesn't particularly like Button I wouldn't enjoy seeing it.

Good lord, I'd say the opposite was more likely. But just to answer the questtion - of course not.

Lewis will drive the socks off a lawn mower if he has to, just as Alonso would - and that's what I appreciate about Lewis.

While Jenson is a moaner as soon as the car isn't to his liking. A bit like Massa. Just Massa doesn't moan as much, but they'll both perform crap if the car is not good. Alonso and Lewis will do otherwise, Not saying they'll win - of course they can't with a crap car - but they will both not give in
until they taste blood in thier mouths.


And I'm - for the record - an Alonso fan and I don't think there are anybody better judges of Lewis qualities than just us - Alonso fans.

Edited by Suntrek, 19 July 2012 - 14:28.

How ironic that would be considering the last Hockenheim. They should do it, as Lewis has a fair chance at the title, but they probably won't.

Jenson is marketed just as much as Lewis as a championsh contending driver, not a no.2, and there are other reasons as well.

I almost said "yes" rather than "maybe" to the "should they" question because I think Button has exactly zero chance of winning the championship this year (I expanded on this in the Jenson vs Lewis thread). The only thing that stopped me is remembering how gutted I felt for Massa in Germany 2010, one year on from his crash, and remembering how that moment destroyed any vestige of spark left in him after Hungary 09. With Button in similarly dire straits a win might do his confidence good and help Hamilton come the end of the season. For example, if a rejuvenated Button won late in the season in, say, Japan ahead of Alonso then the net result of Button winning Germany ahead of Hamilton and Button winning Japan ahead of Alonso would be evened out (not considering other title rivals).

Massa continued to drive the same after Hockenheim 2010. The first half of the season he had 2 podiums and 67 points. 2nd half he had 3 podiums and 77 points. This notion that it 'destroyed' Massa is complete nonsense made up by people who were trying to find ways to villify the team orders. In 2011, the car wasn't as good and lo and behold, his results were worse. 2012 at the start, the car was ever worse and the results likewise. Its not a coincidence that he's driving well again now that the car is getting up to par. I dont think the accident or the team order saga changed anything with regards to Massa's driving. He's just not the type that can deal with a difficult car like Alonso.

With Button, its pretty hard to say that his issue right now is confidence. I dont think it ever has been. Seems pretty clear to me he's just not gelling with the car these past 6 races or so. Dont forget he's won a race and then got 2nd place afterwards this year, so he hasn't forgotten how to drive or anything. This is the guy who beat Lewis in the standings last year, remember. Get the car sorted and he'll be back on-form. A bit of team orders isn't gonna kill him.

But should, for whatever reason, Hamilton finds himself behind Button; it's up to Hamilton to do the work and get past. Championship or no.

Yes but please start to watch another sport or you'll be disappointed. Curling, maybe? or golf?

I voted that McLaren wouldn't and that "maybe" they should.

The first answer speaks for itself from what we know about McLaren's racing ethos. At times it may be misplaced but it does exist and you can't get round that.

I almost said "yes" rather than "maybe" to the "should they" question because I think Button has exactly zero chance of winning the championship this year (I expanded on this in the Jenson vs Lewis thread). The only thing that stopped me is remembering how gutted I felt for Massa in Germany 2010, one year on from his crash, and remembering how that moment destroyed any vestige of spark left in him after Hungary 09. With Button in similarly dire straits a win might do his confidence good and help Hamilton come the end of the season. For example, if a rejuvenated Button won late in the season in, say, Japan ahead of Alonso then the net result of Button winning Germany ahead of Hamilton and Button winning Japan ahead of Alonso would be evened out (not considering other title rivals).

Basically, hard to say. My gut feeling is that it would be the right thing for McLaren to do but even as a fan of Hamilton and someone who doesn't particularly like Button I wouldn't enjoy seeing it.

I still dont get the notion that a competitive Jenson would be good for Lewis against his rivals, Jenson wants to beat Lewis probably more than any other driver as we saw last time out at Silverstone

Massa continued to drive the same after Hockenheim 2010. The first half of the season he had 2 podiums and 67 points. 2nd half he had 3 podiums and 77 points. This notion that it 'destroyed' Massa is complete nonsense made up by people who were trying to find ways to villify the team orders. In 2011, the car wasn't as good and lo and behold, his results were worse. 2012 at the start, the car was ever worse and the results likewise. Its not a coincidence that he's driving well again now that the car is getting up to par. I dont think the accident or the team order saga changed anything with regards to Massa's driving. He's just not the type that can deal with a difficult car like Alonso.

Yes, this is how I see it too. He could be right up there if the car was to his liking.

With Button, its pretty hard to say that his issue right now is confidence. I dont think it ever has been. Seems pretty clear to me he's just not gelling with the car these past 6 races or so. Dont forget he's won a race and then got 2nd place afterwards this year, so he hasn't forgotten how to drive or anything. This is the guy who beat Lewis in the standings last year, remember. Get the car sorted and he'll be back on-form. A bit of team orders isn't gonna kill him.

Exactly. If it were true that Massa's poor form was due to being demoralised for two seasons after receiving team orders, then he has no business in F1. Likewise, Button would get over it and dig in to get the results needed to haul himslef back into contention for 2012 or 2013.

Jenson is now 79 points behind the WDC leader. Massa was 78 points behind Lewis in 2010. That is more than three straight wins in each case. In 2010, Fernando was further behind (47 points to Lewis's 37) and possibly more in need of the points.

Edited by garoidb, 19 July 2012 - 14:49.

Massa continued to drive the same after Hockenheim 2010. The first half of the season he had 2 podiums and 67 points. 2nd half he had 3 podiums and 77 points. This notion that it 'destroyed' Massa is complete nonsense made up by people who were trying to find ways to villify the team orders. In 2011, the car wasn't as good and lo and behold, his results were worse. 2012 at the start, the car was ever worse and the results likewise. Its not a coincidence that he's driving well again now that the car is getting up to par. I dont think the accident or the team order saga changed anything with regards to Massa's driving. He's just not the type that can deal with a difficult car like Alonso.

With Button, its pretty hard to say that his issue right now is confidence. I dont think it ever has been. Seems pretty clear to me he's just not gelling with the car these past 6 races or so. Dont forget he's won a race and then got 2nd place afterwards this year, so he hasn't forgotten how to drive or anything. This is the guy who beat Lewis in the standings last year, remember. Get the car sorted and he'll be back on-form. A bit of team orders isn't gonna kill him.

Good post but a couple of things to take you up on:

1st bold) That doesn't take into account the improvements made to the Ferrari compared to its competition. Seven races into the season (after the Turkish Grand Prix) Massa was on 67 points compared to Alonso's 79. They both had two podiums at that stage, albeit one of Alonso's two podiums was a race win. In the next three races (Canada, Valencia and Silverstone) Massa had issues, crashing with Liuzzi in Canada, dropping from 4th to 17th in Valencia thanks to the safety car and brushing with Alonso in Silverstone, having to do an extra pitstop and finishing one place behind his teammate (who had a drive-through penalty). Up to that point Massa had performed reasonably well against Alonso. Of course, there was no doubt about who was the better driver but Massa was doing a solid job as the number two driver. Then came Germany. In the eight races that followed (Hungary - Abu Dhabi) Massa scored 59 points with two podiums while Alonso scored 129 points with six podiums including three wins. That evidence, at least to me, is pretty telling. The possibility that Germany had a detrimental effect on Massa's confidence, and therefore his ability to drive the car to the best of his abilities, must at least be considered.

2nd bold) This is a man who has always been very vocal about team orders and said the idea was reprehensible to him. He has never been asked to move over for a teammate before so we just don't know how he would react. I suspect he would take it even more badly than other drivers might considering McLaren's previous commitment to driver equality when both still have a chance of the championship. The problem in this situation is that I don't believe Button does. I do agree with you that his problem is car related rather than confidence related. Nevertheless, after such a bad run you have to agree that a win would really get his chin wagging again? He has looked remarkably depressed in interviews recently. It's hard to judge how much psychological factors can influence a driver. Maybe Button could shrug off being told to move over like it was nothing. Then again, maybe he would feel betrayed by the team and sink even further into the mire.

Yes but please start to watch another sport or you'll be disappointed. Curling, maybe? or golf?

That's a bit uncalled for. Whys should I watch something else?

I still dont get the notion that a competitive Jenson would be good for Lewis against his rivals, Jenson wants to beat Lewis probably more than any other driver as we saw last time out at Silverstone

I do agree somewhat. I feel that one of the reasons Button beat Hamilton last year is because Hamilton was racing Vettel and Button was racing Hamilton. Hamilton didn't care enough when the title was gone because the idea of being beaten by Button didn't cross his mind. That arrogance, combined with Button driving superbly in a season that really suited his driving style, made Button a formidable opponent.

I maintain that a competitive Button could benefit Hamilton. 2010 is a good example. Hamilton finished ahead most of the time but Button was often right behind him, taking points from Alonso, Vettel and Webber at various stages of the season. I believe that Alonso may have won the championship in 2010 with Button as his teammate. Hard to say where Hamilton would have been with an uncompetitive teammate though.

poeple have ignored my point...i.e..

if button is leading and lewis is in his tail,i believe that macca will perhapsrather ask lewis not to push much and bring home 1-2 safely....getting button back in form is their priority now...

Edited by aray, 19 July 2012 - 15:50.

I don't think they should. The season has ebbed and flowed rather than going down the wire. The lead changed to Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso all very recently. Button himself was the better McLaren driver in the first two races. Things may very well change for him in the remainder of the season. In a season like this, the best chance for a team is to have both the drivers fighting for the championship and that gives them them larger shot at the championship. Just ask 2010 Red Bull.

Besides, I don't think Button would move over anyway. They may not have had that kind of talk yet, and that talk is not likely given their recent competitiveness and how tight the field has been. Saturday night is going to be too short a time to change Button's mind. Common sense says that Button would not heed anyway.

I do agree somewhat. I feel that one of the reasons Button beat Hamilton last year is because Hamilton was racing Vettel and Button was racing Hamilton. Hamilton didn't care enough when the title was gone because the idea of being beaten by Button didn't cross his mind. That arrogance, combined with Button driving superbly in a season that really suited his driving style, made Button a formidable opponent.

I maintain that a competitive Button could benefit Hamilton. 2010 is a good example. Hamilton finished ahead most of the time but Button was often right behind him, taking points from Alonso, Vettel and Webber at various stages of the season. I believe that Alonso may have won the championship in 2010 with Button as his teammate. Hard to say where Hamilton would have been with an uncompetitive teammate though.

The list of excuses for last year is long and preposterous but this one is one of the most ridiculous. Jenson was beating him before the title was lost.

And Lewis "am i bovered" about Jenson beating him? Come on.

Good post but a couple of things to take you up on:

1st bold) That doesn't take into account the improvements made to the Ferrari compared to its competition. Seven races into the season (after the Turkish Grand Prix) Massa was on 67 points compared to Alonso's 79. They both had two podiums at that stage, albeit one of Alonso's two podiums was a race win. In the next three races (Canada, Valencia and Silverstone) Massa had issues, crashing with Liuzzi in Canada, dropping from 4th to 17th in Valencia thanks to the safety car and brushing with Alonso in Silverstone, having to do an extra pitstop and finishing one place behind his teammate (who had a drive-through penalty). Up to that point Massa had performed reasonably well against Alonso. Of course, there was no doubt about who was the better driver but Massa was doing a solid job as the number two driver. Then came Germany. In the eight races that followed (Hungary - Abu Dhabi) Massa scored 59 points with two podiums while Alonso scored 129 points with six podiums including three wins. That evidence, at least to me, is pretty telling. The possibility that Germany had a detrimental effect on Massa's confidence, and therefore his ability to drive the car to the best of his abilities, must at least be considered.

If you look at the races immediately following Hockenheim, there's no sign that he was getting worse. He also had bad luck and some mistakes just like in the 1st half of the season and when the car is better, these things tend to cost you more points than otherwise.

- In Hungary, Alonso finished 2nd, Massa 4th. Solid result, I'd say. No sign that he lost any performance since 'the incident'.
- At Spa, he outqualified Alonso and went on to finish 4th again, so again, a pretty respectable performance.
- In Monza, he was pretty close on performance to Alonso and nabbed a strong podium result.
- Singapore, he had mechanical gremlins in Q1 and had to start from the back of the grid and still finished 8th.

Seems to me he was just fine still.

2nd bold) This is a man who has always been very vocal about team orders and said the idea was reprehensible to him. He has never been asked to move over for a teammate before so we just don't know how he would react. I suspect he would take it even more badly than other drivers might considering McLaren's previous commitment to driver equality when both still have a chance of the championship. The problem in this situation is that I don't believe Button does. I do agree with you that his problem is car related rather than confidence related. Nevertheless, after such a bad run you have to agree that a win would really get his chin wagging again? He has looked remarkably depressed in interviews recently. It's hard to judge how much psychological factors can influence a driver. Maybe Button could shrug off being told to move over like it was nothing. Then again, maybe he would feel betrayed by the team and sink even further into the mire.

I dont remember him ever saying that team orders were 'rephrensible', but if so, then he should never have accepted the position that Lewis gave him last year in Suzuka and when Lewis said he'd do anything to help Jenson out, Button should have been like, "No! I can do it on my own." If he did say something like that before, he was probably just speaking from an idealistic standpoint. But when reality bites, idealism often goes out the window.

And yea, I've even said something similar in my first post here about how Button's current mental state is difficult to judge and it'd have everything to do with whether or not he finds team orders acceptable or not. A win would get his chin wagging, sure, but that'd be because the car is going again for him more than anything. At this point, he'd probably be pretty damn ecstatic just to compete at the very front again, even if he only finishes 2nd or 3rd or whatever. I'd imagine his inability to be competitive in that car is bumming him out more than his chances at the WDC going away. I mean, realistically, even before Silverstone he was considered a long, long shot. I remember a lot of people laughed at Alonso after Silverstone in 2010 saying he would still fight for the championship and he was 50 points behind and that was a shorter calendar. He was a long shot then and it took Alonso driving a hell of a 2nd half of the season to claw himself back into contention and even then he benefitted a hell of a lot from Vettel DNF'ing from the lead in Korea. I'm not sure Button has ever shown that sort of fight-back ability in his career.

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 July 2012 - 15:58.

No, they will not, and no they should not. They will not, because it is McLaren. No, they should not, because it is McLaren. At any other team it would be acceptable.

I don't think they would but I think they should

This.

It's obvious that Jenson is no longer a championship threat.. as far as this season goes.

McLaren, the paladins of the "moral high ground", they will never do that.

Button shouldn't have to move over for Hamilton. No driver should move over for his team mate.

I don't think they would. But if so, I'd like them to say "Felipe, Fernando is faster than you", just for the kicks.

Button shouldn't have to move over for Hamilton. No driver should move over for his team mate.

That is simply not true, and never has been. In McLaren's case though, it will never happen, and that is as it should be. Somehow this defines them.

I don't think they will, but as others have said, for the sake of the WDC they probably should and back Hamilton from here on in.

An interesting point that has been raised, if asked would Button comply?

I suspect not, but if I were the team boss and he did not comply with the team order I would 'bodge' his pit-stop deliberately. Tbh, I was surprised that Ferrari did not do this themselves back in 2010.

That is simply not true, and never has been. In McLaren's case though, it will never happen, and that is as it should be. Somehow this defines them.

I didn't say drivers haven't moved over for team mates, just in my opinion I wish it didn't have to happen, and if driver a needs to be ahead of driver b, he should overtake him using his own skill rather than any team order, but since team orders are a part of F1 racing than it's whatever I guess.

Have to say, great thread!

So many little caveats with the (not impossible!) scenario, the fallout from JB's perspective would be huge, i'm not sure he'd obey firstly & then after the race it could destroy his harmony in the team wether he does or does not obey.

I think it would actually be a help in trying to keep Lewis too. Fascinating stuff.

I didn't say drivers haven't moved over for team mates, just in my opinion I wish it didn't have to happen, and if driver a needs to be ahead of driver b, he should overtake him using his own skill rather than any team order, but since team orders are a part of F1 racing than it's whatever I guess.

The advent of DRS makes the scenario less likely anyway, unless Lewis needed Jenson to drop back so that he could catch up.

I haven't read through, but has anybody considered LH simply not accepting that kind of scenario?

The advent of DRS makes the scenario less likely anyway, unless Lewis needed Jenson to drop back so that he could catch up.

That is true.

I haven't read through, but has anybody considered LH simply not accepting that kind of scenario?

Didn't he state he was willingly to help Button once, so I guess he wouldn't be averse to the same kind of help?

I really don't know.

poeple have ignored my point...i.e..

if button is leading and lewis is in his tail,i believe that macca will perhapsrather ask lewis not to push much and bring home 1-2 safely....getting button back in form is their priority now...

Lewis would probably say go swivvle

The list of excuses for last year is long and preposterous but this one is one of the most ridiculous. Jenson was beating him before the title was lost.

And Lewis "am i bovered" about Jenson beating him? Come on.

Well first of all Vettel was beating him, then the team started cocking up as always, then Lewis started losing the plot.

Didn't he state he was willingly to help Button once, so I guess he wouldn't be averse to the same kind of help?

I don't know about that, but if you say so, that's normal, imho. Them having an agreement about a subtle switch is an altogether different scenario to the OP's thought about an outright team order. Former is quite possible, latter is not. But, as I said, it def is not the same thing.

I haven't read through, but has anybody considered LH simply not accepting that kind of scenario?

He accepted it fine in Germany 08

He accepted it fine in Germany 08

Which is easy when you're some 2 seconds per lap quicker........

They should, but they won´t do.

Button downfall afterwards? No. He´s smart and professional, and has moved out of the way for Barrichello early 07 several times without getting mad.

They wouldn't and they shouldn't!

I don't think they would but I think they should

Topic Closer

In practice or the race?;)

What if Jenson was leading a McLaren 1-2 at Hockenheim?

Hamilton would push the KERS and DRS buttons. Issue solved.

so what do you guys think, should've Jenson let Lewis win the first practice? after all, he's leading the FP championship and needs the points.

so what do you guys think, should've Jenson let Lewis win the first practice? after all, he's leading the FP championship and needs the points.

Jenson's so selfish